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1400mm vs 425mm vs Tach beam laser

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Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.03.27 19:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:25:04 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:23:48 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:23:14 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:22:10 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:21:29 FLAME AWAY 1 1400mm arty fires 10 times in 236.3 seconds and has a multiplyer of 5, in this period of time a 425 fires 24.717 times and has a multiplyer of 2.75, and the Tacheon beam laser can fire 18.904 times and has a multiplier of 4.5 makin up my own terms now :) Multiplier multi Number of Shots per Period NoS/P Amunition (using the powerfull rounds for this graph) ammo Total Hit Points per Shot THP/S Damage on target per period DoT/P SO in the time period of 236.3 seconds: weapon-----multi-NoS/P--ammo-----THP/S-----DoT/P 1400mm----5-----10-----emp--------44----------2200 425mm-----2.75--24.717-AntiM------48----------3262.719 Tach--------4.5---18.904-MultiFre----44----------3535.048 all numbers have been taken out of eve. NOW BY THIS GRAPH WHICH WEAPONS NEED TO BE NERFED!!!! Check the numbers if u dont beleive me. PS. CCP is there an easy way to do a graph in a post or what! All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
qrac	Posted - 2004.03.27 19:37:00 - [2] Quote: Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:25:04 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:23:48 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:23:14 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:22:10 Edited by: Griffin Smith on 27/03/2004 19:21:29 FLAME AWAY 1 1400mm arty fires 10 times in 236.3 seconds and has a multiplyer of 5, in this period of time a 425 fires 24.717 times and has a multiplyer of 2.75, and the Tacheon beam laser can fire 18.904 times and has a multiplier of 4.5 makin up my own terms now :) Multiplier multi Number of Shots per Period NoS/P Amunition (using the powerfull rounds for this graph) ammo Total Hit Points per Shot THP/S Damage on target per period DoT/P SO in the time period of 236.3 seconds: weapon-----multi-NoS/P--ammo-----THP/S-----DoT/P 1400mm----5-----10-----emp--------44----------2200 425mm-----2.75--24.717-AntiM------48----------3262.719 Tach--------4.5---18.904-MultiFre----44----------3535.048 all numbers have been taken out of eve. NOW BY THIS GRAPH WHICH WEAPONS NEED TO BE NERFED!!!! Check the numbers if u dont beleive me. PS. CCP is there an easy way to do a graph in a post or what! u forgot fitting requirements. u forgot ship bonuses. u forgot cap usage. u forgot range. here's my flame: end yourselfÖ ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Gariuys	Posted - 2004.03.27 19:41:00 - [3] Why flame? and who asked for a nerf? noone. And pls don't use DOT for anything but Damage over Time! it's confusing and Damage on Target doesn't make any sense, since damage is always done to a target. The only thing that was annoying was the howitzers that where hitting way too good well into their falloff, that's fixed, turrets are balanced. Missiles, EW and Drones are next. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
NoNamium	Posted - 2004.03.27 19:48:00 - [4] check this link for more accurate information than what has been talked about here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337
YuuKnow	Posted - 2004.03.27 20:05:00 - [5] If you want to see this done right check here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=45337&page=1 I think xeno's set the standard of wepon analysis. You might want to check your figures against his.
Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.03.27 22:19:00 - [6] Wow some ppl got way more time on their hands then i do. OK Damage over time for the various weapons is 1400: 2200/236.3 = 9.3101989 425: 3262.719/236.3 = 13.80752857 Tach: 3535.048/236.3 = 14.96 This is the damage done by the various weapons per second so the 1400s r still sucking hind tit! my post was not about whether this wep needs more cap or that wep needs more grid, it was about the damage done by the wep in a given time frame (in this case per second) and that most of those commenting on the power of the 1400s were uninformed All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
Silverlancer	Posted - 2004.03.27 23:11:00 - [7] Edited by: Silverlancer on 27/03/2004 23:14:21 1400s have better falloff. 1400s have less cap usage. 1400s have all types of damage rather than just two... 1400s have less powergrid requirement than tachs. The list goes on.
Foomanshoe	Posted - 2004.03.28 00:45:00 - [8] ROFL This is the difference between a noob and a vet. Look at the DOT for all proj using your methods, you'll find that the cheaper you go, the better the DOT on raw stats. But wait! why is it in an accual fight thats not the case? Skills! Thats right johnny, skills have a far greater effect on a gun like the 1400mm howwy then they do on either the tach or the 425mm. Since the Howwy is such an extreme gun (huge base damage mod, base range, and base rof) the skills that effect these effect the gun ALOT more. You can cut that rof in half on a tempest with good skills and a damage mod, and with a 10+ damage modifier on the howwies, your looking at an awesome DoT after skills and equipment are applied. That said, 1400mm really are best on a tempest, and are quite balanced. They defidently arent the crap your making them out to be though. _______________________________________________
Silv	Posted - 2004.03.28 06:20:00 - [9] The ship bonuses and stuff is what makes the 1400 out of hand. You also forgot things like tracking speed.
Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.03.28 08:31:00 - [10] The 3 skills that affect the 1400 on damage only r large projectile wep (5% per lvl), surgical strike (3% per lvl) and minmatar bs (5% per lvl) which gives a sum total of +65% this was a compound interest calculation so 9.31 x 1.65 = 17.58 (its just easyer to right it out this way). now for hybrid turrents the skills r Large Hybrid Turrent and surgical strike so + 40% which equels 20.43 and the same for the tach so + 40% equels 22.13 so adjusted for skills in damage 1400mm dot = 17.58 425mm dot = 20.43 tach dot = 22.13 now we need the rof bonus in the bs skill just to bring up our dot to equel that of the other weps, also a rad/second increase wouldn't go astray either All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
Siddy	Posted - 2004.03.28 09:25:00 - [11] my 425mm double autocannon got higer DoT than 1400mm this is pathetick rant (EMP L bullets) my 1400mm do 14dmg/seconds* ( * = Target tankked form EM and Kinetik) my 425 AC make 20dmg/second* -------------------------------------------
fras	Posted - 2004.03.28 11:50:00 - [12] Well I think that's right Siddy as it's a close range weapon! I find Tachyons hurt hard even when you have an em and thermal hardner active, but they are the worse weapon of these 3 just because they take so much cap. It's too much of a tradeoff. I think maybe 2 or 3% should be added to the current 5% per level of the Energy Turret Usage bonus to even things out
Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.03.28 12:28:00 - [13] Edited by: Griffin Smith on 28/03/2004 12:33:07 we r all aplying our experience to these equations and it is skewering the results, i guess we all have our faviorites. my faviourite is the 1400 as u can see: top rof for a 1400 is 11.536 seconds(thats with all skills lvl5) the 1400 does lose in some catagories like rof and rad/s the 425 loses in accurracy fall off and the tach loses on the accurracy fall off and the cap usage. In this rant i was comparing the weps only, not the ships or their abilities. All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
Archemedes	Posted - 2004.03.28 13:00:00 - [14] Quote: ROFL This is the difference between a noob and a vet. Look at the DOT for all proj using your methods, you'll find that the cheaper you go, the better the DOT on raw stats. But wait! why is it in an accual fight thats not the case? Skills! Thats right johnny, skills have a far greater effect on a gun like the 1400mm howwy then they do on either the tach or the 425mm. Since the Howwy is such an extreme gun (huge base damage mod, base range, and base rof) the skills that effect these effect the gun ALOT more. You can cut that rof in half on a tempest with good skills and a damage mod, and with a 10+ damage modifier on the howwies, your looking at an awesome DoT after skills and equipment are applied. That said, 1400mm really are best on a tempest, and are quite balanced. They defidently arent the crap your making them out to be though. Actually, those skills boost an autocannon just as much as a 1400mm. If you cut a howitzer's reload in half with skills and mods you double its damage over time. If you cut an autocannon's reload in half it ALSO doubles the damage over time. It's just that those 1000+ wrecking hits LOOK so darn impressive... 1400mms are one of the worst large turrets in the game if doing the maximum damage in a given time period is what you care about. However, if you want long range without needing to switch to lower-damage ammo and minimal cap use, they are great. Tachs and mega beams don't leave all that much cap for defense, blasters and autocannons require close range, and rails require multiple ammo types if you want to do max damage at differing ranges. With howitzers, you just load them with EMP ammo and fire away regardless of range (the higher damage offsets the slightly worse hits at long range) and your cap stays full... and that can be worth losing some damage over time. And don't even start on the insane boost a Tempest gets from damage and ROF bonuses!
YuuKnow	Posted - 2004.03.28 14:52:00 - [15] Quote: Wow some ppl got way more time on their hands then i do. OK Damage over time for the various weapons is 1400: 2200/236.3 = 9.3101989 425: 3262.719/236.3 = 13.80752857 Tach: 3535.048/236.3 = 14.96 This is the damage done by the various weapons per second so the 1400s r still sucking hind tit! my post was not about whether this wep needs more cap or that wep needs more grid, it was about the damage done by the wep in a given time frame (in this case per second) and that most of those commenting on the power of the 1400s were uninformed True you can look at it that way. But a cap usage is extremely important if you want to truly compare the turrets. A weapon like the 1400 will free up your low slots giving you room for damage mods instead of cap relays (as tachyons require 4-6 cap relays to sustain fire for long). Also, the lack of cap usage by the 1400's means that you can concentrate your cap energy into shield boosting, making your defenses stronger. These attributes more than make up for the slightly lower damage (pre-damagemod damage that is). Think about it.
Homo Habilis	Posted - 2004.03.28 14:57:00 - [16] 2004.03.27 23:29:37 combat Your Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 1333.8 damage. Your Tachyon Modulated Energy Beam I perfectly strikes Guardian Enforcer, wrecking for 1333.8 damage. 6.4 sec rof instant crystal change. no reloading. yea, ill stick with my lasers and skip joining the tempest bandwagon ;\
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.03.28 18:59:00 - [17] Where did the 425mm Autocannon come from? This debate is on the 1400mm Artillery, 425mm Railgun, and Tachyon Beam Laser. Ok, let's see some stats: 425mm Railgun: Powergrid: 2750 MW CPU: 70 tf Damage Modifier: 2.75 Rate of Fire: 9.56300 Tracking Speed: 0.00278 Activation Cost: 30 Optimal Range: 48 km Accuracy Falloff: 24km Use ammunition: Yes Ammunition damage possible: Kinetic, Thermal, always. Ammunition load: 40 units Ship bonuses: Dominix (+5% Damage), Megathron (+5% damage and tracking), Scorpion (+5% optimal range), Raven (+5% optimal range) 1400mm Howitzer Artillery Powergrid: 3250 MW CPU: 45 tf Damage Modifier: 5 Rate of Fire: 23.62500 Tracking Speed: 0.00167 Activation Cost: 3 Optimal Range: 40 km Accuracy Falloff: 60 km Use ammunition: Yes Ammunition damage possible: Kinetic, Thermal, EMP, Explosive, dependant. Ammunition load: 10 units Ship bonuses: Typhoon (+5% damage and optimal range), Tempest (+5% rate of fire and damage) Tachyon Beam Powergrid: 4250 MW CPU: 60 tf Damage Modifier: 4.25 Rate of Fire: 12.50000 Tracking Speed: 0.0033 Activation Cost: 125 Optimal Range: 40 km Accuracy Falloff: 16 km Use ammunition: No Ammunition damage possible: Thermal, EMP, always. Ammunition load: 1 unit Ship bonuses: Armageddon (+5% rate of fire and -5% capacitor need), Apocalypse (-5% capacitor need) stats taken from eve-db.com The relevant ships fitting stats: Apocalypse Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 4 Low slots: 7 Turret hardpoints: 8 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 2 Powergrid: 15000 MW CPU: 500 tf Armageddon Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 3 Low slots: 8 Turret hardpoints: 7 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 0 Powergrid: 12500 MW CPU: 450 tf Dominix Hi slots: 6 Medium slots: 5 Low slots: 7 Turret hardpoints: 6 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 0 Powergrid: 9000 MW CPU: 600 tf Megathron Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 4 Low slots: 7 Turret hardpoints: 7 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 2 Powergrid: 12000 MW CPU: 550 tf Raven Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 6 Low slots: 5 Turret hardpoints: 4 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 6 Powergrid: 10000 MW CPU: 600 tf Scorpion Hi slots: 6 Medium slots: 8 Low slots: 4 Turret hardpoints: 4 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 4 Powergrid: 9000 MW CPU: 750 tf Tempest Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 5 Low slots: 6 Turret hardpoints: 6 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 4 Powergrid: 12500 MW CPU: 550 tf Typhoon Hi slots: 8 Medium slots: 4 Low slots: 7 Turret hardpoints: 4 Missile Launcher Hardpoints: 4 Powergrid: 9500 MW CPU: 600 tf These stats also taken from the eve-db.com I hope this might give this debate the missing stats? I am intrested in how it turns out -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Gween	Posted - 2004.03.28 19:04:00 - [18] Weapons are well balanced, at the moment - all you need is to use the right ship for your precious gun. Period. -------------- Coffee'n'Toffee makes Gween happy Coffee'n'Toffee makes Gween happy ...
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.03.28 19:10:00 - [19] Quote: Ship bonuses: Typhoon (+5% damage and optimal range), Tempest (+5% rate of fire and damage) Typhoon gets a 5% opt. range bonus and 5% R.O.F bonus? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Isiana	Posted - 2004.03.28 20:10:00 - [20] Quote: Quote: Ship bonuses: Typhoon (+5% damage and optimal range), Tempest (+5% rate of fire and damage) Typhoon gets a 5% opt. range bonus and 5% R.O.F bonus? that is correct Carebear\|Me Alts
Cutter John	Posted - 2004.03.28 22:02:00 - [21] wouldnt it be better to compare mega beams to 425's and 1400's? mega's are the large version of the medium beam and heavy beam, 1400's are the large version of 280s an 720s, and 425's the large version of 150's and 250's. tachs are the next higher gun in the class, and have no comparable med and small guns, nor any comparable hybrids or projectiles. we'd need 550mm rails and 1800mm arty if you wanted to compare tachs to something. My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!
Archemedes	Posted - 2004.03.29 01:50:00 - [22] Tachs have the best damage / second of any long range gun, but also the highest cap / second. 1400mm howitzers have the second worst damage / second of any long range gun (1200mms are worse) but the lowest cap / second. 425mm rails are in the middle on both damage and cap use. Really, I can't say anything looks out of balance here as far as the guns themselves go. Not using cap (1400s) is a huge advantage, but you pay for it with lower damage output. High damage and no reloading (tachs) is also a significant advantage, but you pay for it in high cap use. The only thing that might (or might not) be out of balance is the bonuses for certain ships... comparing tachs on an Apoc (with no bonus to ROF or damage) to 1400s on a Tempest (with bonuses to both) is misleading. Oh, and autocannons got mentioned in response to the idea that skills are more important on 1400mms. The point was that ANY weapon benefits equally from an increase in damage or ROF, since unless you can kill the target in one shot it doesn't MATTER whether you do one 1000 point hit every 20 seconds or one 200 point hit every 4. No other weapon type has a battleship that grants BOTH a bonus to ROF and to damage so I guess you COULD argure that a high battleship skill is more important to a 1400mm user IF he flies a Tempest, but that has nothing to do with the gun itself and every other skill helps all weapons equally.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.03.29 02:15:00 - [23] my gripe with the 1400mm howitzer is that it has 3x the falloff of any other turret and so you don't have to really switch ammo on it to hit long range, it does rather good damage at most any range with EMP/Phased Plasma, that's kind of messed up imo.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Siddy	Posted - 2004.03.29 07:18:00 - [24] Quote: my gripe with the 1400mm howitzer is that it has 3x the falloff of any other turret and so you don't have to really switch ammo on it to hit long range, it does rather good damage at most any range with EMP/Phased Plasma, that's kind of messed up imo.. believe me - they doesent do so good damage if goes over 20km from optimal - i always keep EMP for close - Plasma for not-so-close and Titanium sabot for long -------------------------------------------
Archemedes	Posted - 2004.03.29 19:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Archemedes on 29/03/2004 19:47:59 EDIT: can't spell and don't want my quotes doubled by previewing... Edited by: Archemedes on 29/03/2004 19:46:57 Quote: my gripe with the 1400mm howitzer is that it has 3x the falloff of any other turret and so you don't have to really switch ammo on it to hit long range, it does rather good damage at most any range with EMP/Phased Plasma, that's kind of messed up imo.. 1400s are less sensitive to range than rails, but always remember that even with EMP you aren't going to do any more damage than a rail using lead charges... 1400 w/EMP = 8.89 dps / 20k optimal / 60k falloff 425mm rail w/ lead = 9.20 dps / 48k optimal / 24k falloff Of course skills and mods that boost falloff help the 1400 more, but skills and mods that boost optimal help the rail more... so they are both good at long range. Granted the rail is more annoying to use due to needing to swap out ammo as range changes, but since doing so guarantees outdamaging the 1400mm that's not too big a price.
Griffin Smith	Posted - 2004.03.30 05:31:00 - [26] Some of my figures r off for the 425 as i didn't take into acount the bs skill 5% increase for damage so it should be on par with the tach when taking in to account lvl5 skills, damage wise. The 1400s r the only gun in game that can strike out to 165 - 170km with lead ammo, but the 1400 does have some disadvantages as expressed above. guess u cant win them all:) All that is truely urs, is whats in ur head.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2004.03.30 09:28:00 - [27] 425s only seem to work well when your right on the optimal range =/
Blueblooded	Posted - 2004.03.30 11:02:00 - [28] I remembered a nice excell calulation for all different weapons, which unfortunetly got lost when the raw data and game mechanisms was changed... Would love to see a new such calculation with correct math for the current build ---------------------------------------- "The royal blood is blue, hence my name"

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