| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
   |
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:04:00 -
[1]
...every once in a while, I do get an overwhelming feeling of "this is so freaking SIMPLE, why the hell doesn't CCP just do it?"
What am I talking about ?
The usual problem : alleviating LAG.
____
Yes, before you flame me like I would flame others posting something SIMILAR, have a bit of patience and read on.
It's not a "lag solution", you will definetely KEEP having lag anyway.
It's merely a band-aid measure to SLIGHTLY decrease lag in heavy-lag areas.
____
You might remember the day when CCP completely removed all the asteroid belts in several high-lag systems, like Jita and others in a similar situation.
You might also remember that, on occasion, CCP has moved agents around and even talked about adjusting their quality.
Well, WHAT THE HELL IS STOPPING YOU, CCP, FROM DOING THE SAME AGAIN ?
For instance, why not simply move ALL agents out of Jita AND neighbouring systems ?
If you have to leave some agents there and one or two jumps away, only leave some LOW quality, LOW level agents.
Why not regularly (as in, every month or so) move agents out of traditionally high-lag systems, and into the nearest compatible station with a lower lag level ?
Why not regularly (or, hell, DYNAMICALLY) adjust the quality level of agents in high-lag systems down, while increasing the quality of agents in less populated areas ?
Simply put, you have a fairly easy solution to REDUCE lag down a notch and dissipate it across the galaxy, what's stopping you from, you know "just doing it" ?
There must be some logical reason, but I just can't see one where the benefits would not heavily outweigh the drawbacks.
Yes, there are drawbacks too, mainly the "inconvenience" caused to people that were using affected agents.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:07:00 -
[2]
Because CCP's policy is that manually moving agents/belts/stargates ends up being a waste of time. They've done it several times, and each time a new hub forms elsewhere and in the end they haven't done much good.
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:09:00 -
[3]
But when some of the better agents are IN Jita, you have to question their competence in choosing what and where to move 
1|2|3|4|5. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:10:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Akita T
Yes, there are drawbacks too, mainly the "inconvenience" caused to people that were using affected agents.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head. Because people would become infuriated at their agents moving on them, or suddenly lowering in quality. Because some people build their Eve lives (read: wallets) on the ISK these agents provide them (even though they could and should go elsewhere to make ISK and have less lag). More importantly: because there'd be just as much whining about this (and maybe accounts quitting even) than there would be about lag.
And this only solves YOUR problem, with lag in Jita (or Motsu or other high populated systems). This doesn't do anything to help a large number of lag complainers, who are fleets in 0.0. The people who have problems with lag in Jita can always be told one thing: Go somewhere else if you don't like it. You can't exactly tell those to the people fighting wars in 0.0.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:11:00 -
[5]
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
"Bring back the pain."
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 -
[6]
Also, I heard a troubling piece of news recently.
Allegedly, there is no more "node reinforcing" being done for 0.0 "scheduled" combat, on account of doing that creating a mess in the "auto-balance" algorythm for sysyem-on-node relocation.
Shame... shame !
1|2|3|4|5. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
Unfortunately, some do. :( And if it was true, and they don't, agents nearby send people to Jita quite often.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Paulo Damarr
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:13:00 -
[8]
Take Umokka as an example, the system has a reasonable quality CN level 4 agent which is no where near low sec which attracts lots of mission runners but to make it worse the system has some decent mining with lots of belts and a high proportion of the +10% ores which attracts swarms of hulks.
They put two massive attractions in the system which causes lag when they could reduce it by moving either the agent or the ore out.
|
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
But when some of the better agents are IN Jita, you have to question their competence in choosing what and where to move
True, but the day may come where Jita isn't a market hub anymore. If they moved all the agents from Jita and the surrounding systems, what then? Should they move them back to maintain an even distribution throughout Caldari space? Add additional agents?
I think it's more CCP's stated policy than the actual work required (now or later), but that's just my theory.
----------------
Tarminic - 31 Million SP in Forum Warfare
Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.2 |
Imperator Jora'h
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic
Because CCP's policy is that manually moving agents/belts/stargates ends up being a waste of time. They've done it several times, and each time a new hub forms elsewhere and in the end they haven't done much good.
I do not think she supposes this would stop hubs. She is just saying since the hub is there move things that could be elsewhere somewhere else. No need to add to the problems of overcrowding by keeping belts in Jita or high level agents in Motsu a few jumps away.
The agent in Motsu would still be swamped of course but move them to some remote corner. No belts in Jita would hardly be a problem (do people actually mine in Jita?).
Personally I love the notion of a dynamic agent quality system. Lets face it, EVERYONE will arrow straight to the highest quality agent they can with a given NPC corp. Instead make overworked agents decrease in quality or rewards (you can RP it that since they have a flood of people seeking the same jobs they can get away with paying less for each job as would happen in any market...unused agents would offer higher pay to lure people to them). This would keep things in flux, keep people moving. You might want to add some random fudge factor since (in theory) this would make all agents the same quality over time as players sought the best ones (they'd all even out). With a bit of random fudge factor you could keep the system dynamic.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Paulo Damarr
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
Bitmaps make Jesus cry
|
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
People don't go to Jita for the agents.
*ORLY?*
Screenshot taken a few moments ago.
Bitmaps make Jesus cry
Hence it being a gif?
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ulstan on 01/02/2008 16:34:09
Quote:
Yep, you hit the nail on the head. Because people would become infuriated at their agents moving on them, or suddenly lowering in quality.
The entire reason hubs form in the first place is because of the foolish disparity in agent quality in hi sec.
What purpose does it serve? None whatsoever. Everyone is free to choose any agent they wish. There is no 'upside' to using a lower quality agent when you have a higher quality agent available. Therefore, everyone will gravitate to the best quality agents.
It's easy to mathematically determine which agent is 'best' because their effective quality is based on completely static numbers.
So you have the entire population flocking to a handful of 'best' agents and ignoring all the many 'sub par' agents littered around empire space.
Clearly this is a bad system that provides a strong impetus for creating 'hubs' and lag.
I recommend normalizing agent quality across high sec. (You should do this for lwo sec too, but low sec missioning needs to much help it's not funny, and addressing those problems are beyond the scope of this thread).
This will greatly reduce the number of people going to hubs, by making all agents equally attractive. The population hates lag too, they'll be happy to move around to new agents if they aren't getting poorer rewards by doing so.
There is a further subset of players that would still go to 'hubs' in order to pick and choose their missions. You can compeltely remove the very idea of 'mission hubs' by having an even distribution of evenly qualified agents.
You can leave a few negative quality agents for people trying to raise standings, but really, the plethora of bad quality agents is just silly and contributes directly to everyone going to the 'same' place.
But the bottom line is, as long as some agents are mathematically 'better' than others, the systems containing those agents will be overpopulated and laggy.
The only way to permanently address this is remove the agent quality disparity for agents in hi sec. Make them all 10's or something.
|
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world? 
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
|
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:36:00 -
[16]
Quote:
Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Yes. You've got to *remove* the hot commodoties by making other commodities equally attractive.
Everyone goes to the 'best' agents. There are only a few 'best' agents and lots of (wasted) bad agents. If all agents were the same, people would have no compelling reason to pick a specific agent over another and the population would naturally disperse into a less laggy equilibrium.
|
Vabjekf
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:38:00 -
[17]
Ive got an idea. Why not just move agents around, all the time? Don't mess with their level or quality, just move them around some. IT can be randomized, you can probably automate the entire process. Every week or so move 10% of the agents around.
This will have a decentralizing effect, it will also make some less-than-used agents more used, and some over used agents less used. And hell, it could also get more people out into low sec, as well as occasionally having corps that are traditionally seen as 'bad' for high sec mission running cycled into high sec sometimes.
It, on top of everything else, makes sense. Agents are people, people tend to move around=P
Naturally agents only go to other stations of their corp.
It would mix things up, keep missions interesting ^_^
|
Imperator Jora'h
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data.
I thought the problem stems more from nearby Motsu (and Saila?) which have the best Caldari Navy Agents which people glommed on to figuring Caldari Navy was the only route to a Raven Navy Issue (although not true people stick with it). Those agents send people to Jita.
And, I am guessing, people who want to camp the Jita market may well go ahead and mission there just to have something else to do/make some extra cash. Just guessing on that one though.
|
Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ulstan
Yes. You've got to *remove* the hot commodoties by making other commodities equally attractive.
Everyone goes to the 'best' agents. There are only a few 'best' agents and lots of (wasted) bad agents. If all agents were the same, people would have no compelling reason to pick a specific agent over another and the population would naturally disperse into a less laggy equilibrium.
Well, one has to waste their time on the shoddy agents to get faction standing up high enough (assuming that's someone's sole chosen path for doing so) to use the better quality ones.
Maybe the solution is to spread things around more between qualities of agents, so doing the lower quality ones still result in lucrative rewards. That way nothing is considered to be "best" per se, thus the masses won't flock to a select few.
Eh, just an idea.
|
Kehmor
Caldari
PAK
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
so move the level 3 and 4 agents to low sec. Problem solved.
PAK is recruiting! |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:51:00 -
[21]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days?
L3 missions are the most cost-effective way of advancing faction standings, and the proximity to a major hub makes LP "liquidation" and loot/salvage selling extremely convenient.
So, yes, a L3 positive quality agent in Jita is a prized commodity.
I would only leave low (negative) quality L2 agents there, and preferably no L1 agents at all (since it would attract too many "newbies").
Also, I suppose you have much better ways to audit WHICH Jita agents are the most used, or which agents send you into Jita to kill ships.
Since, you know, screenshots don't lie.
Jita has a greater number of NPC kills as most neigbouring systems (the only notable exception being Saila), even if Jita has no belts to kill NPCs in.
Now tell me that if those 18+k NPC ships killed in Jita would drop to a mere 4k or even close to zero, Jita wouldn't lag A BIT LESS ?
1|2|3|4|5. |
Roy Gordon
Caldari
The Star Wolves
Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 16:54:00 -
[22]
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger.
The Universe is ruled by three basic principles-
Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest! |
Ulstan
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:04:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Well, one has to waste their time on the shoddy agents to get faction standing up high enough (assuming that's someone's sole chosen path for doing so) to use the better quality ones.
You only *need* a couple shoddy agents. We have a plethora of them.
You can get your faction standing high enough to do every L4 for a faction doing nothing more than L3's for a little while.
|
Monkey's Revenge
Sybrite Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Roy Gordon
To be honest, this is a problem of OUR creating and not of CCP's for a change.
In real life people in the business world graviate towards trade hubs, thats why you have the major trade centers of the world centers on places like London, New York, Toyko etc. Have you ever been to those cities? How many of the countries population are based in them? Take London for example, 10% of the population of the entire United Kingdom lives or works there.
And guess what. London charges RL úú to enter the capital... Idea? Maybe.
|
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Black-Out
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kehmor
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:58
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 16:33:10
A L3Q13 agent is a prized commoditiy these days? Or maybe my DB has incorrect denormalized data. Either way:
We can't keep on doing temporary band-aid solutions. I don't have any concrete and/or normalized numbers but I reckon the first push to move asteroids and some agents out of Jita didn't give us any extra oomph. Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't so if these agents are such hot commodities moving it to undedicated systems will cause lag on other systems than just that one.
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
so move the level 3 and 4 agents to low sec. Problem solved.
Level 4s, anyway... and as long as missions are given a thorough revision to make mission-fits much closer to PvP fits.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Serge Tahlon
Gallente
Templars of Space
Black Star Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:11:00 -
[26]
how about we could petition before a big 0.0 fight to have all belts removed.
its not as if you cant smell a massive brawl coming days in advance.
especially with strot timers and all.
any little bit would help.
|
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Believe me, if we had easy solutions absolutely nothing would stop us from solving latency. You know how popular we'd become in the MMO world?
Make all agents quality zero, or Q 20, Q -20. Just make them all the same, quality problem will then be fixed because it will not exist. Easy.
Next step is then to remove agent levels and allow any agent to hand out any level mission so long as the player has appropriate standings. Then there is no need for mission runners to bunch up.
The Real Space Initiative - V5 (Forum Link)
|
Alz Shado
Ever Flow
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:15:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 01/02/2008 17:15:09
Quote:
Besides, Jita has it's own dedicated node where as other systems don't
Is it too early to pre-petition a dedicated reinforced node for Rens?
|
|
CCP Prism X
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:25:00 -
[29]
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 01/02/2008 17:26:15
Rens might already be on one.. I know jita aint the only one at least. We started off with 3 and i'm quite sure people can add to the list behind my back and I haven't checked recently.
Edit: Totally forgot to answer the question.
I don't think you'll get far petitioning, but you wont get pwnt either. Try it, use fancy big words, present your case.. just remember you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
~ Prism X
EvE Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
|
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.01 17:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
you're asking to dedicate very very very expensive hardware to a single system. It *has* to be worth it.
And I think that's the biggest problem CCP contends with. There is a lot CCP could do to fix lag all over the place... with an unlimited budget. They have to work within the money we give them (and do we really want our subscription costs to increase?)
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |