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Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.01 21:43:00 - [1] Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%?
Skeiron Wretched Industries New Eden Research	Posted - 2008.02.01 21:46:00 - [2] Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? Or give webs a falloff with %reduction for more range outside of optimal. Fixes nanoship problems as well. ------------------------- No more alt-posts!!! Originally by: Derek Sigres Minmatar ships look like someone built a racecar with parts out of a junkyard.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.02.01 21:59:00 - [3] Originally by: Skeiron Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? Or give webs a falloff with %reduction for more range outside of optimal. Fixes nanoship problems as well. That would rely on the assumption that there is a nanoship problem, and that it is not, in fact, a viable tactic with effective counters already in place.
Ishan Mons Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:02:00 - [4] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Skeiron Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? Or give webs a falloff with %reduction for more range outside of optimal. Fixes nanoship problems as well. That would rely on the assumption that there is a nanoship problem, and that it is not, in fact, a viable tactic with effective counters already in place. that why the devs are planning on nerfing them? ------------------------ Infrared = heat = thermal Infrared crystals = less therm more EM I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS! Reach in front of a 10watt CO2 laser some time you'll get it...
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Skeiron Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? Or give webs a falloff with %reduction for more range outside of optimal. Fixes nanoship problems as well. That would rely on the assumption that there is a nanoship problem, and that it is not, in fact, a viable tactic with effective counters already in place. yeah, it's not a problem that's why every man and his dog are flying nano ships. it's getting nerfed too so you're preeeety much wrong.
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:31:00 - [6] Originally by: Skeiron Or give webs a falloff with %reduction for more range outside of optimal. Fixes nanoship problems as well. Hey, wait up little interceptor, i got to get you in my optimal. NO WAY, that would totally break it. How about having warp disrupt ors be chanced base like ecm. NO THAT WOULDN'T WORK EITHER. Thanks for contributing to the destruction of eve.
Sauromugue	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:35:00 - [7] Let's just delete the entire frigate class while we're at it.
Liam Fremen Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2008.02.01 22:39:00 - [8] Make webber work on MASS of a ship, if you are heavy they slow u faster (more gravity stuff to attach for slowing u) if u are in a ceptor the slowing factor will be way less. Obviously all range based, if u are in a BS at 4km/s u get slowed as hell even outside the "Optimal" range, if u are in inty, outside optimal the slowdown will be very "light" and then inside optimal will increase a lot until webbing like now. Stack penality already apply, so they must make that a ceptor even 3x webbed at 20km should slow down like 10% or so. _________________________________________________
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.02.01 23:18:00 - [9] Originally by: Ishan Mons that why the devs are planning on nerfing them? Proof or it never happened. (Protip: there isn't any, because they haven't said that.)
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:25:00 - [10] Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Ishan Mons that why the devs are planning on nerfing them? Proof or it never happened. (Protip: there isn't any, because they haven't said that.) This thread wasn't intended to be about nanoships. To be honest I was thinking about whether a Torp-Raven would bother fitting a webber in PVP, if its engagement range would be 20-30km. In my mind the target was a Blaster-Hyperion, doing 1000 m/s and messing up my torp damage by going so fast. Slowing that sucker down even to 500 m/s makes him take 98% torp damage. Regardless of whether or not nanoships need a nerf (they do), or whether speed has gotten out of hand (it has), some kind of long range speed reducer would go a long way towards making anything OTHER than a nanoship any fun to fly. Interceptor screaming by at 10k? Your crappy long range webber just slowed him down to 8k, congrats. He's still untouchable. But at least you felt like you did something, and if you and 3 friends all did the same, maybe somebody could hit him. And no, this wouldn't "make frigates useless," because they do so little damage that everybody ignores them anyway. Which is, I think, the frigate "niche" in this game. P.S. Make Assault Frigates immune to webs if you feel that this idea threatens their role. Make the damn things worthwile, for once.
hellsknights RennTech SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? I think Huginns/Rapiers can already web from far enough
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:36:00 - [12] Originally by: hellsknights Originally by: Anon Forumalt Warp Jammers have a close and long range version: Scramblers work at 9km, Disruptors at 24km. Scramblers are, needless to say, much more powerful. Why not a "lite" version of the Stasis Webifer that works at ~25km, and slows by 50%? I think Huginns/Rapiers can already web from far enough That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) I know that "every tactic has its counter," but the two recons of one race should not be absolutely required to pvp effectively. How about a module that counters speed tanking just a little? I'm not talking an "i win" button like a Huginn. Just something slight. Like web drones but not awful.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:59:00 - [13] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 02/02/2008 03:05:30 Originally by: Dianeces Originally by: Ishan Mons that why the devs are planning on nerfing them? Proof or it never happened. (Protip: there isn't any, because they haven't said that.) uhhm yes they did. Just read the transcript of the last live dev blog. cba to look it up now but you are deffo wrong here. I don't like it either because i don't see much of a problem with nanos other than they can be pretty annoying (which a lot of ships can be nanoed or not). Edit: Originally by: CCP Mindstar Balance to the force... Alright, I guess one of the things that is fairly big issue, that looks like being worth looking into, is speed overall. We have seen recent reduction on the speed of interdictors, but a lot of people are still interested to know if there are anything going to be happening with polycarbon rigs, nanos, overdrives etc. Is there anything in the drawingboard for that? Originally by: CCP Zulupark There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Not exactly a promise but if you've played this game for a while you should be able to read between the lines. Hope they don't make minnies crap again.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:03:00 - [14] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 02/02/2008 03:04:53 nm...not worth the bother. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Ap0ll0n Gallente Pikfjaes	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:11:00 - [15] Why not script it? Increasing range will drop the % the ship is slowed down, or something like that.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:05:00 - [16] Webs are too powerful. That is the problem that is why people fight out of web range.
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Anon Forumalt That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) I know that "every tactic has its counter," but the two recons of one race should not be absolutely required to pvp effectively. How about a module that counters speed tanking just a little? I'm not talking an "i win" button like a Huginn. Just something slight. Like web drones but not awful. You mean like a heavy energy neutralizer? Or an Amarr recon? Or a Minmatar recon? Or an interceptor with a web? Or an overheated cheap faction web? Or nanoships of your own? Seriously though, on an unrelated note, not just web drones but every EW drone except ECM need a buff.
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Anon Forumalt That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) I know that "every tactic has its counter," but the two recons of one race should not be absolutely required to pvp effectively. How about a module that counters speed tanking just a little? I'm not talking an "i win" button like a Huginn. Just something slight. Like web drones but not awful. You mean like a heavy energy neutralizer? Or an Amarr recon? Or a Minmatar recon? Or an interceptor with a web? Or an overheated cheap faction web? Or nanoships of your own? Seriously though, on an unrelated note, not just web drones but every EW drone except ECM need a buff. I'll admit that Heavy Neutralizers represent a decent way to handle small nanoships. But "an Amarr recon, or a Minmatar recon, or an interceptor with a web, or nanoships of your own" are part of the problem and not the solution. All of those fall squarely into the category "fighting nanoships with nanoships," which is exactly what I don't think we all need to be doing. And all that aside, the scenario I had in mind (mentioned earlier) is webbing a MWD Mega/Hyperion moving at 1k/s from about 25 or 30 out, in the Torpedo sweet spot.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:24:00 - [19] Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Anon Forumalt That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) I know that "every tactic has its counter," but the two recons of one race should not be absolutely required to pvp effectively. How about a module that counters speed tanking just a little? I'm not talking an "i win" button like a Huginn. Just something slight. Like web drones but not awful. You mean like a heavy energy neutralizer? Or an Amarr recon? Or a Minmatar recon? Or an interceptor with a web? Or an overheated cheap faction web? Or nanoships of your own? Seriously though, on an unrelated note, not just web drones but every EW drone except ECM need a buff. I'll admit that Heavy Neutralizers represent a decent way to handle small nanoships. But "an Amarr recon, or a Minmatar recon, or an interceptor with a web, or nanoships of your own" are part of the problem and not the solution. All of those fall squarely into the category "fighting nanoships with nanoships," which is exactly what I don't think we all need to be doing. And all that aside, the scenario I had in mind (mentioned earlier) is webbing a MWD Mega/Hyperion moving at 1k/s from about 25 or 30 out, in the Torpedo sweet spot. Who said these recons had to be nanoed? Just a mwd is enough. Nice of you to ignore the cheap faction web(same price or cheaper than 2 poly rigs). What about training for a gang mod? 18km overheated t2 webs for your entire gang. Longer ranged web would be ********ly overpowered.
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:28:00 - [20] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad Originally by: Anon Forumalt That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) I know that "every tactic has its counter," but the two recons of one race should not be absolutely required to pvp effectively. How about a module that counters speed tanking just a little? I'm not talking an "i win" button like a Huginn. Just something slight. Like web drones but not awful. You mean like a heavy energy neutralizer? Or an Amarr recon? Or a Minmatar recon? Or an interceptor with a web? Or an overheated cheap faction web? Or nanoships of your own? Seriously though, on an unrelated note, not just web drones but every EW drone except ECM need a buff. I'll admit that Heavy Neutralizers represent a decent way to handle small nanoships. But "an Amarr recon, or a Minmatar recon, or an interceptor with a web, or nanoships of your own" are part of the problem and not the solution. All of those fall squarely into the category "fighting nanoships with nanoships," which is exactly what I don't think we all need to be doing. And all that aside, the scenario I had in mind (mentioned earlier) is webbing a MWD Mega/Hyperion moving at 1k/s from about 25 or 30 out, in the Torpedo sweet spot. Who said these recons had to be nanoed? Just a mwd is enough. Nice of you to ignore the cheap faction web(same price or cheaper than 2 poly rigs). What about training for a gang mod? 18km overheated t2 webs for your entire gang. Longer ranged web would be ******ly overpowered. Yes, I ignored the overheating. I'm worse than ignorant on the entire subject. Maybe that would work really well? As for "longer ranged web would be ******ly overpowered," I disagree. Let's take my previously mentioned number and lower it some more: 75% speed (25% slowed) on tech II at 25km. This seems overpowered to you? A heavy neutralizer (which was mentioned earlier as a viable counter to nanoships) has that same range. Please, explain.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:34:00 - [21] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/02/2008 06:34:10 Originally by: Anon Forumalt text Webs are speed tank on / speed tank off. Fighting in web range demands that you can soak up damage. A light ship fighting in web range is dead. Lets not forget missiles the weapons that never miss with missiles and your extended web missile boats dominate against light ships as they can no longer dodge them. also 75% is not light
Anon Forumalt	Posted - 2008.02.02 06:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/02/2008 06:34:10 Originally by: Anon Forumalt text With missiles and your extended web missile boats dominate against light ships as they can no longer dodge them. also 75% is not light Rather what I had in mind, I'm afraid. As for 75% "not being light," maybe I wasn't clear. 1000 m/s becomes 750 m/s. 12000 m/s becomes 9000 m/s. Hardly seems worse than taking a Heavy neutralizer to the face.
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.02.02 07:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: CCP Mindstar Balance to the force... Alright, I guess one of the things that is fairly big issue, that looks like being worth looking into, is speed overall. We have seen recent reduction on the speed of interdictors, but a lot of people are still interested to know if there are anything going to be happening with polycarbon rigs, nanos, overdrives etc. Is there anything in the drawingboard for that? Originally by: CCP Zulupark There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Not exactly a promise but if you've played this game for a while you should be able to read between the lines. Hope they don't make minnies crap again. They were definitely planning on nerfing carriers, and look what happened with that. Saying something needs looking into is not a guaranteed nerf. While I know as well as the next guy that CCP is probably going to kneecap speed, there are no definitive plans as of yet.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:23:00 - [24] Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 02/02/2008 06:34:10 Originally by: Anon Forumalt text With missiles and your extended web missile boats dominate against light ships as they can no longer dodge them. also 75% is not light Rather what I had in mind, I'm afraid. As for 75% "not being light," maybe I wasn't clear. 1000 m/s becomes 750 m/s. 12000 m/s becomes 9000 m/s. Hardly seems worse than taking a Heavy neutralizer to the face. Currently missile boats dominate against smaller ships that rely on tracking I'd rather not see missiles gain any more power
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.02.03 07:59:00 - [25] sounds like fail to me, because we dont want a next module that every one has to fit to be viable in pvp
Ris Dnalor Minmatar Ama-gi	Posted - 2008.02.03 09:12:00 - [26] Originally by: Liam Fremen Make webber work on MASS of a ship, if you are heavy they slow u faster (more gravity stuff to attach for slowing u) if u are in a ceptor the slowing factor will be way less. Obviously all range based, if u are in a BS at 4km/s u get slowed as hell even outside the "Optimal" range, if u are in inty, outside optimal the slowdown will be very "light" and then inside optimal will increase a lot until webbing like now. Stack penality already apply, so they must make that a ceptor even 3x webbed at 20km should slow down like 10% or so. thissy thiss this -- No love for the Matari
sh4rp ov3rvolt Hikage Corporation Paxton Federation	Posted - 2008.02.03 11:47:00 - [27] Edited by: sh4rp ov3rvolt on 03/02/2008 11:48:22 Originally by: Liam Fremen Make webber work on MASS of a ship, if you are heavy they slow u faster (more gravity stuff to attach for slowing u) if u are in a ceptor the slowing factor will be way less. Obviously all range based, if u are in a BS at 4km/s u get slowed as hell even outside the "Optimal" range, if u are in inty, outside optimal the slowdown will be very "light" and then inside optimal will increase a lot until webbing like now. Stack penality already apply, so they must make that a ceptor even 3x webbed at 20km should slow down like 10% or so. this, but minnie recons would become way too overpowered... they should not be able to fit them
Mangus Thermopyle Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.03 14:57:00 - [28] I think web should have a range of about 5km, and then a falloff or 15km or so. This way you could web with full effect when close, or further out, up to 20km, but with diminishing effect.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2008.02.03 17:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/02/2008 17:58:33 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 03/02/2008 17:56:21 Originally by: Anon Forumalt Interceptor screaming by at 10k? Your crappy long range webber just slowed him down to 8k, congrats. He's still untouchable. But at least you felt like you did something, and if you and 3 friends all did the same, maybe somebody could hit him. And no, this wouldn't "make frigates useless," because they do so little damage that everybody ignores them anyway. Which is, I think, the frigate "niche" in this game. First off. 50% speed reduction on a typical interceptor means it will go about 3km/s, where it will get brutally murdered by a say, AC hurricane/etc/etc/etc. To have 8km/s you'd have to have 16km/s, which would require deadspace gear, rigs, max skills, gang bonuses and drugs, just because you fitted a very commonly available piece of T2 gear. Furthermore, long range webs promote all-BS groups, since all-BS groups become vastly superior to any other sort of group composition. What's the point of using a HAC, ever, with long range webs? BS is cheaper, outdamages it, outbuffers it, outtanks it, has more range, and the speed/tracking advantages are rendered largely irrelevant with long-range webs. Battleships have a amazing tool versus faster and smaller things (and tacklers, which were specifically changed to counter this) called heavy NOS/neuts which tend to be 'tackler/HAC shutdown' buttons. Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle I think web should have a range of about 5km, and then a falloff or 15km or so. This way you could web with full effect when close, or further out, up to 20km, but with diminishing effect. Falloff doesn't work that way. Falloff is not 'reduced effect'. It's 'chance to hit'. Originally by: Anon Forumalt Originally by: hellsknights I think Huginns/Rapiers can already web from far enough That's rather my point. Two ships, maybe a handful more if you count the Blood Raider faction ships (I don't.) Two ships + 8 T1 ships + 8 T2 ships. Now that's a whole LOT of ships which counter nanoships. The fact there are 16 ships in game which are not used as they should be (even with recent love) is entirely the problem of players. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
HotAngel	Posted - 2008.02.03 18:08:00 - [30] Originally by: Perfect Diamond How about having warp disrupt ors be chanced base like ecm. NO THAT WOULDN'T WORK EITHER. Actually it would work brilliantly. Warp disruptor = 1pt, warp strength of ship = 1pt; 100% change to disrupt. Warp disruptor = 1pt, warp strength of ship w/ 1xwcs = 2pt; 50% change to disrupt. As it stands now, having the only counter to speed being limited to one races recon ships is a joke, something needs to change.

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