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Time for the 250km lock range cap to die.

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Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:48:00 - [1] Now that the Apoc has been boosted to arguably the best sniper in the game, the poor Rokh is even more obsolete than before. While the Rokh can get well over 250km optimal range, the locking range cap prevents it from effectively using that advantage. It only gets worse now that there's a second battleship with a range bonus, as the Apoc can now hit almost to 250km while doing a little more damage with better tracking. The Rokh's advantage is now down to a VERY tiny window, so why bother flying it? On the other hand, if the 250km cap is removed (even increasing to 300km or 350km would do it, without breaking the grid system), the Rokh actually has some room to use its range advantage properly, and is not obsolete.
Waxau The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:51:00 - [2] Again, agree - However, need to be careful, as lock range could mean death to certain tactics and such. Possibly a new mod for advanced locking, etc.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:55:00 - [3] I like the changes to the apoc. However, I agree that it does more or less obsolete the Rokh. Something should be done, but I don't know if the solution is simply to raise the lock range - CCP might not want combat happening at such extreme ranges.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 00:59:00 - [4] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 02/02/2008 01:02:09 Originally by: Waxau Again, agree - However, need to be careful, as lock range could mean death to certain tactics and such. Possibly a new mod for advanced locking, etc. I don't think there's too much risk involved. Only the Rokh, Raven, Widow and Golem really have the ability to break 250km. The missile ships can only do it with cruise setups, which are already fairly weak compared to the more popular torp setups (and don't evne think about flight time at 300km), and the Rokh is the ship that is the reason for making the change. Originally by: Ulstan I like the changes to the apoc. However, I agree that it does more or less obsolete the Rokh. Something should be done, but I don't know if the solution is simply to raise the lock range - CCP might not want combat happening at such extreme ranges. Fixing the lock cap is the only thing that will fix the Rokh while keeping it true to the concept of Caldari ships. Caldari railboats are supposed to have superior range as their defining advantage, and it works well on everything but battleships. At the battleship level, you have an arbitrary cap in place that lets the other races catch up too much. Fix the cap and this problem goes away, fix the Rokh in any other way and it's no longer a true Caldari ship. The only other way to do it is to nerf the range of every other battleship and reduce combat ranges in general, but this would bring in massive balance issues and be a completely inefficient way of doing it.
MalVortex	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:45:00 - [5] Signed and more signed. The lock range cap is arbitrary and does nothing for game balance. A target shooting you at 300km away is the same thing as that target being 250km away in regards to your ability to respond. That target has low dps and no tackle, so there is no compelling reason to force combat closer. The days of snipers sitting off gates plinging people to death as they approach from 15km are long since behind us. Moving the lock cap up a hundred or more KM would allow the few caldari ships that can shoot that far to have a fun, and unique place in the world, without altering game balance at all. As it stands, this cap is an artificial restriction on those ships that will make them marginalized for no reason whatsoever.
achoura	Posted - 2008.02.02 01:47:00 - [6] Eh? You can't "fix" a cap for a ship that only got introduced because of that ship. I miss watching revelations melt bs at 450km, and resented it as a mega gone rokh pilot too, but it was needed to stop insane, impossible to counter snipers. The rokh strength is not it's insane range, it's being able to deal more damage than a mega at the same range while being cap stable while being able to take damage. Passive shield buffer > plates in fest lag fest every armor tanker sacrifices tank for range or cap stability (well it can't actually do that but close) and becomes even slower weighing it's self down with plates which them have to be repped when shot while shield simply regen, few extenders, couple pdus it shrugs of a dd and just keeps going. Range isn't everything and you're putting alot of focus on one bonus attached to two ships but proposing a change effecting all ships based on it *The EVE servers and their patches*
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:11:00 - [7] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 02/02/2008 02:11:45 Originally by: achoura EYou can't "fix" a cap for a ship that only got introduced because of that ship. I miss watching revelations melt bs at 450km, and resented it as a mega gone rokh pilot too, but it was needed to stop insane, impossible to counter snipers. Err, what? As I remember it, the 250km lock cap was around long before the Rokh was released, and a side effect of the grid system, not ship balance. The only reason nobody complained about it is before the Rokh, it wasn't an issue. Nobody could really get an optimal range over 250km in the first place, and there were no ships based around having superior range over the other side. Quote: The rokh strength is not it's insane range, it's being able to deal more damage than a mega at the same range while being cap stable while being able to take damage. Read the Apoc changes please. If these changes go through, the Megathron is completely obsolete as a fleet sniper. The only people who will ever take a Megathron into fleets again are the ones who are still training Large Energy Turret V. So comparing the Rokh to a ship that no longer exists is just silly. The comparison is now Apoc vs. Rokh. And here, the range cap gives the Rokh a clear loss, it does less dps with less tracking, and only very slightly better range. Quote: Range isn't everything and you're putting alot of focus on one bonus attached to two ships but proposing a change effecting all ships based on it Range is the whole point of Caldari ships, especially the railboats. This is how it works at everything below the BB level, and the only reason it doesn't work at the BB level is the arbitrary 250km lock range cap cutting off 50km of effective range.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:15:00 - [8] Hey, you are the guy that said only rpers fly amarr and amarr don't matter for balance right? Yeah, then suck it up and take your own medicine how about that? You don't care for balance in the slightest and you have made that more then clear. So what the problem now?
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 02:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Wu Jiun Hey, you are the guy that said only rpers fly amarr and amarr don't matter for balance right? Yeah, then suck it up and take your own medicine how about that? You don't care for balance in the slightest and you have made that more then clear. So what the problem now? Err, you are kidding, right? My point with saying "only RP-ers fly Amarr" was to highlight the completely broken state of Amarr ships and hopefully get people to realize that major changes were necessary. And more importantly, to highlight just how long the Amarr problem had been around without getting any attention. When the developers completely ignore massive balance issues with a race, it gets to the point where you seriously start to suspect changes are never going to come, and Amarr have been abandoned to their fate as a RP-only race. Claiming I wanted Amarr ships nerfed is just incredibly stupid, to the point that I have to suspect you're just trolling.
Hohne Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:25:00 - [10] I sort of agree, but last I heard CCP's views on this they were trying to bring combat in closer not further.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 03:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Hohne I sort of agree, but last I heard CCP's views on this they were trying to bring combat in closer not further. Changing the Apoc to have a range bonus utterly breaks this plan. Now instead of one long-range sniper with a range advantage, you have the Apoc doing more damage than the Megathron with better tracking, and almost as much range as the Rokh. The issue is now what to do to make the other battleship snipers worth flying. And in the case of the Rokh, the only legitimate solution is to remove the cap and allow the Rokh to use the full optimal range it can reach.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.02 04:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Read the Apoc changes please. If these changes go through, the Megathron is completely obsolete as a fleet sniper. The only people who will ever take a Megathron into fleets again are the ones who are still training Large Energy Turret V. So comparing the Rokh to a ship that no longer exists is just silly. The comparison is now Apoc vs. Rokh. And here, the range cap gives the Rokh a clear loss, it does less dps with less tracking, and only very slightly better range. You know, I remember when they released the Rokh. And everyone whined and whined about how it made all other snipers obsolete because you could sit outside their range and own them. Now? Every single sniper fleet is still, at MINIMUM, 25% Megathrons. Also, please note that the Apoc needs 2x RCU II for Tachyons and three sensor boosters to lock past 200km. The Rokh needs 1/2, respectively. That means the Apoc is two mods down on the Rokh, which means 2 less damage mods, which means the Rokh still does more damage with a better damage type.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:23:00 - [13] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 02/02/2008 05:25:00 Originally by: Xequecal You know, I remember when they released the Rokh. And everyone whined and whined about how it made all other snipers obsolete because you could sit outside their range and own them. Now? Every single sniper fleet is still, at MINIMUM, 25% Megathrons. Because the Rokh has superior range, but less damage. The Apoc does not need to make this tradeoff, it does more damage than the Megathron with better range and better tracking. The Megathron is just obsolete in every way. Quote: Also, please note that the Apoc needs 2x RCU II for Tachyons and three sensor boosters to lock past 200km. The Rokh needs 1/2, respectively. That means the Apoc is two mods down on the Rokh, which means 2 less damage mods, which means the Rokh still does more damage with a better damage type. Yes, I'm well aware of this. Please actually look at the setups before making comments like this. Even with all those factors considered, the Apoc does more damage with better tracking, and only very slightly less range. With max skills, the Apoc can hit 240km optimal. The Rokh can get 275km optimal, but the range cap leaves no room for the Rokh to actually use this advantage. With the cap in place, the Apoc hits the same range with more damage and more tracking... why would you ever fly the Rokh?
Lothros Andastar Gallente The Beer Barons	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:39:00 - [14] Yeah, perhaps when you get the programming expertise to expand the grid system without ******* the server over then yes. Until then STFU
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 05:58:00 - [15] Originally by: Lothros Andastar Yeah, perhaps when you get the programming expertise to expand the grid system without ******* the server over then yes. Until then STFU Until you actually understand the problem, please STFU. The grid system is not the issue... you can already see targets from over 250km away just fine. Expanding the maximum lock range from 250km to 300km or probably even 350km would not require any changes in the grid system, and would allow the extreme-range ships to operate properly.
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.02.02 07:29:00 - [16] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Read the Apoc changes please. If these changes go through, the Megathron is completely obsolete as a fleet sniper. The only people who will ever take a Megathron into fleets again are the ones who are still training Large Energy Turret V. Ok... I can see how the Apoc might step on the Rokh's toes a bit, but the Mega will still outclass the Apoc in close range battles. It's only fair the the Apoc gets the advantage as a sniper. Gallente shouldn't win at everything.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.02 07:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Kruel Ok... I can see how the Apoc might step on the Rokh's toes a bit, but the Mega will still outclass the Apoc in close range battles. It's only fair the the Apoc gets the advantage as a sniper. Gallente shouldn't win at everything. The new Apoc isn't just better as a sniper, it utterly dominates the competition: The Megathron and Hyperion are completely obsolete. The Apoc does more damage with much longer range and better tracking. There is literally no reason to ever fly a Gallente BB in fleets unless you can't fly an Apoc. The Rokh is essentially obsolete unless the 250km lock cap is removed. The Apoc has better damage and tracking, and falls just short of the lock cap (meaning identical effective range). Even if the lock cap is removed, getting enough Rokh pilots to really take advantage of the superior range will be hard, but at least it's something. Kind of pathetic though, to see the top-tier battleship from the "sniper race" struggling to hold onto some tiny remains of a role. The Tempest and Maelstrom are dangerously close to obsolete. The Apoc again does more damage with better range and tracking, but at least the Minmatar ships still have the alpha strike advantage. I guess it'll take more testing to see if this is enough to save them or if Minmatar BBs will join Gallente on the scrap pile, but their position is dangerously close. The important thing is Amarr have come out of nowhere to get the uncontested best fleet sniper, with essentially no drawbacks. Why? There's no precedent for Amarr ships having the top sniper, the Apoc is the only Amarr ship even close to best-in-class at this role. It's just massive overkill to boost the Apoc like this, when a less-extreme boost could have made it a worthy ship without trashing game balance. It's absurd on the same level as deciding Caldari need some competition for the Vagabond and giving the Cerberus 20km/s speed. It's stupidly broken, and completely out of character for the race.
Typhado3 Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:00:00 - [18] ok I'm not much of a fleet sniper. but I am a expert at logistics ships specifically the scimitar which can boost turret range by substantial amounts. with scimitar and any bs you are capable of insane ranges... or at least you would be if you could lock that far. /signed My Opinions are my own, not my corp's, not my friend's, and not my pet fedo's
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Merin Ryskin The new Apoc isn't just better as a sniper, it utterly dominates the competition: The Megathron and Hyperion are completely obsolete. The Apoc does more damage with much longer range and better tracking. There is literally no reason to ever fly a Gallente BB in fleets unless you can't fly an Apoc. No, he's talking about closerange gank with neutron blasters. You do realize that before this change the Megathron is both the best fleet sniper AND the best closerange gank BS?
HEINZ ZERO PsyCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:38:00 - [20] new Apoc max Targetting range with 3 Sensor Booster: 249km new Apoc max Optimal range with 3 tracking enhancer: 231 km DPS with this fitting (you can only use 2 HS II because of 2 needed RCUII: 357 CAP lasts with Aurora: 4m 4s one Med slot for MWD 2 low slots for RCU II¦s in build cap bonus Rokh max targetting range with 2x Sensor Booster: 249 km Rokh max Optimal range with 2x tracking computer: 249 km DPS with this fitting (you can use 3 MFS II): 321* Cap lasts with Spike: 4m 34s 2x low¦s for 2x Power diagnostic system II (this gives you more cap+ shield) one med slot for MWD one med slot is free 25% shield resistance bonus .. now tell me why the new apoc is better than rokh the APOC gets a laser cap bonus (that would be a damage bonus for other ships) the rokh gets a shield resistance bonus!! both ships get the optimal range bonus (amarr 7.5%; Caldari 10%)
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.02 13:51:00 - [21] Originally by: HEINZ ZERO new Apoc max Targetting range with 3 Sensor Booster: 249km new Apoc max Optimal range with 3 tracking enhancer: 231 km DPS with this fitting (you can only use 2 HS II because of 2 needed RCUII: 357 CAP lasts with Aurora: 4m 4s one Med slot for MWD 2 low slots for RCU II¦s in build cap bonus Rokh max targetting range with 2x Sensor Booster: 249 km Rokh max Optimal range with 2x tracking computer: 249 km DPS with this fitting (you can use 3 MFS II): 321* Cap lasts with Spike: 4m 34s 2x low¦s for 2x Power diagnostic system II (this gives you more cap+ shield) one med slot for MWD one med slot is free 25% shield resistance bonus .. now tell me why the new apoc is better than rokh the APOC gets a laser cap bonus (that would be a damage bonus for other ships) the rokh gets a shield resistance bonus!! both ships get the optimal range bonus (amarr 7.5%; Caldari 10%) Don't forget the 35-40% tracking bonus tachyons have over 425mm rails. --------------------------------- Oh noes!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:04:00 - [22] Quote: You do realize that before this change the Megathron is both the best fleet sniper AND the best closerange gank BS? Yeah, and that's a situation that should never really have developed.
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.02.02 14:39:00 - [23] tbh, i am not sure, it would be nice, but personally on the rohk, i use the range bonus to use harder hitting ammo at a longer range than is otherwise possible. i rarly sit on the end of the grid with it i just use the better ammo out to a longer range than is otherwise possible. btw merin, "sniper torp's" are gone mate, and have been for sometime (new flight time range issue since the RoF incrase).
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2008.02.02 17:17:00 - [24] Merin, I honestly don't see your problem. The Rokh can still use Cal/Gal navy ammo and out damge the Apoc, it also still reaches further out. It does do more damage then the Megathron, but it also tracks a lot less. Now the dev blog is clear as to what the role of Amarr ships will be - they are the gank and tank race with good range. Caldari get the massive range but low damage. So its a good selection - range for damage. Now I understand you want caldari to have more clear roles that set them apart entierly - but - what other change would you have proposed for the Apoc? If its made into a drone boat, the Domi pilots would ne unhappy, if it got a tracking bonus, the Mega pilots would be unhappy, if it got missles, Raven pilots would switch and so on - this 7.5% is the same bonus as the Rokh but weaker and the Apoc lacks the mids or the resistance bonus the Rokh has to be a real competator out there at 250km. So I would disagree, the Apoc has not become the 'arguably best sniper in the game' - I would say it has become a sniper at last. -----------
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.02 18:59:00 - [25] So basically amarr get a buff and since everyone believes that the rohk should be the best, they are complaining. Why can't you guys deal with a little competition.
Perfect Diamond	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:02:00 - [26] Originally by: Atius Tirawa Now the dev blog is clear as to what the role of Amarr ships will be - they are the gank and tank race with good range. Caldari get the massive range but low damage. So its a good selection - range for damage. The abaddon is not the king of tanking. I think minmitar have that covered for bs and caldari for bc and heavy dictor. Amarr is just average with tanking so we're forced to gank if we want an edge. But again, ever race has gank setup. Granted our have a bigger optimal then some.
Lelulie Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.02.02 19:43:00 - [27] You can't just extend base lock range willy nilly, POSs currently have a 250km max range too, lots of mechanics would need to be changed in order to facilitate this change. A lot of work that the devs aren't gonna do atm if they even considered this idea. ------------------------------------
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:02:00 - [28] Quote: Because the Rokh has superior range, but less damage. The Apoc does not need to make this tradeoff, it does more damage than the Megathron with better range and better tracking. The Megathron is just obsolete in every way. I only read here "whaa whaa, i want a ship that's good for everything". No stop it, the mega is a close range ship with decent sniping abilities still, but you can't expect it to outperform other ships with specific sniping bonuses.
Ruciza Minmatar The Feminists	Posted - 2008.02.02 20:06:00 - [29] The Rokh also has 3 times the hp at 250km. Of course the op never fits a tank, but there is no doubt who will win there.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.02.02 21:21:00 - [30] I'll bet a billion ISK that three months from now there are still at least twice as many Megathrons in a typical fleet than Apocs.

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