Originally by: thoth foc

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Edited by: thoth foc on 06/02/2008 10:36:57

Originally by: Don Z0LA

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Originally by: thoth foc

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To fail against the northern coalition is pretty embarrassing tbh.. after years of trying to shoot bob, it's taken them to limpet onto the main southern powers to have any real affect..

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you mean fail like atuk did when tried to conquer 4s space up there long time ago ? so they napped fe hoping that will help but faild again...

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we had branch and venal.. why would we ever have wanted 4s's space? we took a couple of trips down their way.. but the pew pew was better elsewhere.. (farming IRON ftw!)

OMG ATUK IN OUR SPACE!! THEY ARE COMING TO CONQUER US!!

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Originally by: Don Z0LA

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yea sieging poses is for fun fights, sorry i forgot you guys are after epic fights... YEA RITE :D

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Edited by: thoth foc on 06/02/2008 12:05:15

Originally by: Don Z0LA

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yea sieging poses is for fun fights, sorry i forgot you guys are after epic fights... YEA RITE :D

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i suppose when your used to camping empire jumps and ganking.. anything more long term than "oh the gate flashed" is hard to understand.. dont worry i dont expect more from you ;-)

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Originally by: DragonFire1

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Before I go on, I just wanna say that i'm not in any 0.0 alliance.

Out of all the powers, I think triumvirate is the next superpower.

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Quote:

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They have really good fc's, and very very good pvpers. If you look at the skirmishes in the north, they have killed TONS of morsus mihi and razor caps. Tri doesn't lose any.

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Originally by: Amiable Quinn

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Well... As a total outsider who just eagerly follows the 0.0 war descriptions here is my (probably worthless) 2 cents.

The Goons will be the dominate superpower in EvE for the forseeable future, until the next great logistical juggernaut takes its place.

For all the bashing of the Goons, we have learned quite a bit about EvE from their war with BoB.

1. High skillpoints and K/D ratios, while fun for small gang PvP, have little impact on territorial control (which is the EvE endgame). The traditional metrics that have been used to define "greatness" in this game are now almost entirely obsolete.

2. The ability to bring other alliance and factions into your cause is essential.

3. Logistics, logistics, logistics. Logistics, more than any other factor, determines the success of a large alliance in EvE. I'm not just talking about the micro logistics like stront timing and moving large forces, but also Macro logistics like maintaing proper supply and coordinating multi-front attacks with a variety of parties.

Individual PvP skill is now totally irrelevant to control of 0.0. If Tri wants to be "the next big thing" in EvE they need to have more than good PvPers/fleet commanders, they need to have folks who are experts at the logisticl enterprise behind taking and holding large sections of 0.0 space.

While I could do without the obnoxious behavior, ultimately what the Goons have done is a great thing for the health of this game. They have shown that new players can come in and make a real impact on the game, without having eleventy-billion skillpoints.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 06/02/2008 13:31:13

Originally by: Amiable Quinn

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Well... As a total outsider who just eagerly follows the 0.0 war descriptions here is my (probably worthless) 2 cents.

The Goons will be the dominate superpower in EvE for the forseeable future, until the next great logistical juggernaut takes its place.

For all the bashing of the Goons, we have learned quite a bit about EvE from their war with BoB.

1. High skillpoints and K/D ratios, while fun for small gang PvP, have little impact on territorial control (which is the EvE endgame). The traditional metrics that have been used to define "greatness" in this game are now almost entirely obsolete.

2. The ability to bring other alliance and factions into your cause is essential.

3. Logistics, logistics, logistics. Logistics, more than any other factor, determines the success of a large alliance in EvE. I'm not just talking about the micro logistics like stront timing and moving large forces, but also Macro logistics like maintaing proper supply and coordinating multi-front attacks with a variety of parties.

Individual PvP skill is now totally irrelevant to control of 0.0. If Tri wants to be "the next big thing" in EvE they need to have more than good PvPers/fleet commanders, they need to have folks who are experts at the logisticl enterprise behind taking and holding large sections of 0.0 space.

While I could do without the obnoxious behavior, ultimately what the Goons have done is a great thing for the health of this game. They have shown that new players can come in and make a real impact on the game, without having eleventy-billion skillpoints.

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For those who cannot be bothered to read all of that he said that those with the overwhelming numbers will win in a terratorial war and that is RAGOON.

Well duh.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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For those who cannot be bothered to read all of that he said that those with the overwhelming numbers will win in a terratorial war and that is RAGOON.

Well duh.

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Originally by: Amiable Quinn

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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For those who cannot be bothered to read all of that he said that those with the overwhelming numbers will win in a terratorial war and that is RAGOON.

Well duh.

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No, what I am saying is the group with superior logistical management will win territorial wars, and that this skill is vastly different from pvp/fleet management.

Fleet management wins battles.
Logistics management wins territory.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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In that case your wrong on both counts cos in eve at the moment those with the overwhelming numbers will win eventualy every time.

If you wanna call getting the pilots to the system they are attacking logistics then go ahead but the plain simple truth is that its all about the numbers when you are holding or taking space. In smaller more balanced battles say 30 vs 60 or so then id agree that fleet managment and having individualy skilled pilots can have the 30 walk away with a mayor win as ive done it many times myself.

But in space holding warfare with thousands on both sides the ppl with the tens of thousands will always beat the guys with only a few thousand even if the tens of thousands suck at logistics, pvp skill or fleet managment.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Edited by: Nekumi on 06/02/2008 14:29:41

Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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In that case your wrong on both counts cos in eve at the moment those with the overwhelming numbers will win eventualy every time.

If you wanna call getting the pilots to the system they are attacking logistics then go ahead but the plain simple truth is that its all about the numbers when you are holding or taking space. In smaller more balanced battles say 30 vs 60 or so then id agree that fleet managment and having individualy skilled pilots can have the 30 walk away with a mayor win as ive done it many times myself.

But in space holding warfare with thousands on both sides the ppl with the tens of thousands will always beat the guys with only a few thousand even if the tens of thousands suck at logistics, pvp skill or fleet managment.

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Tell that to ASCN or D2.

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Quote:

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They have really good fc's.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Why they only had slightly greater numbers not overwhelmingly greater.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Why they only had slightly greater numbers not overwhelmingly greater.

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Your self delusion is magnificent to behold. ASCN alone dwarfed BoB at least 4 to 1.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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My bad i must have included all the so called pets goons claim and continue to post about that bob had fight along side them (and win their wars for them alegedly) in my calculations.

Although i seem to remember bob having around 2-3k membership at the time and im sure ascn did not have 8-12k but hey im sure your "facts" as per usual will fit in with your little obsession.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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My bad i must have included all the so called pets goons claim and continue to post about that bob had fight along side them (and win their wars for them alegedly) in my calculations.

Although i seem to remember bob having around 2-3k membership at the time and im sure ascn did not have 8-12k but hey im sure your "facts" as per usual will fit in with your little obsession.

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Your numbers are way off but hey don't let that interfere with you changing the goalposts on this conversation again. How much of a margin is your hopeless case scenario where a large group can't possibly be defeated by a smaller one.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 06/02/2008 16:11:26

Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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My bad i must have included all the so called pets goons claim and continue to post about that bob had fight along side them (and win their wars for them alegedly) in my calculations.

Although i seem to remember bob having around 2-3k membership at the time and im sure ascn did not have 8-12k but hey im sure your "facts" as per usual will fit in with your little obsession.

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Your numbers are way off but hey don't let that interfere with you changing the goalposts on this conversation again. How much of a margin is your hopeless case scenario where a large group can't possibly be defeated by a smaller one.

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Please keep claiming that "ASCN alone dwarfed BoB at least 4 to 1" and that its my figures that are off and that im "self delusional" its the best giggle ive had in ages.

How about you run along and get some actual facts and figures to back up such stupid claims before you actualy post them or even better stick to your normal one line posts like, stop posting or bob alt and the like because actual factual and detailed debates are obviously beyond you without resorting to juvinille insults.

Theres plenty of threads about the bob ascn war and the d2 war for that matter im sure one of them can provide you with the figures you will need, that is if you can either be bothered to check them as they will make you look even more foolish. Im sure you will try to include or exclude various pets/allies so your figures may look near the mark im looking forwards to seeing it.

Although you will proly just post what you think is a cutting remark and bow out you normaly do.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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ASCN where the biggest alliance in the game before the BoB war numbering over 4000, some people I've talked to have mentioned figures of up to 5500. BoB where trim around 1k maybe at most 2k but I personally don't know if they where that big by then and they really only started hitting 2k members after the fall of LV.

I've had a quick look at Serenity Steeles website but unfortunately the history for corp membership doesn't go back further than ninety days. That's about as much effort as I'm willing to bother with trying to school a little troll alt soz.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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So 4000-5500 hey lets call it 6000 just for you against bob plus pets (i would not want to not include the pets as it would upset all the other members of your alliance who tell me over and over bob did nothing alone).

Id say come to 2.5 to 3k max maybe more depending on what the argument is about and what goon you are arguing with.
IE; More pets if its about how bob won their wars and less if its about summat like this but 2.5k or even 2k will do for now.

So by my math 2.5k or 2k x 4 = 10,000 or 8000 but ascn only had 6000 (see how generous i am with 6k just for you) i guess you need to go back to goonie propoganda school and learn not to post claims about thing you know nothing about.

PS; Nice alt insult at the end there i suggest you stick to just them in future.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Edited by: HEY LISTEN on 06/02/2008 16:39:50

Originally by: Nekumi

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ASCN where the biggest alliance in the game before the BoB war numbering over 4000, some people I've talked to have mentioned figures of up to 5500. BoB where trim around 1k maybe at most 2k but I personally don't know if they where that big by then and they really only started hitting 2k members after the fall of LV.

I've had a quick look at Serenity Steeles website but unfortunately the history for corp membership doesn't go back further than ninety days. That's about as much effort as I'm willing to bother with trying to school a little troll alt soz.

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So 4000-5500 hey lets call it 6000 just for you against bob plus pets (i would not want to not include the pets as it would upset all the other members of your alliance who tell me over and over bob did nothing alone).

Id say come to 2.5 to 3k max maybe more depending on what the argument is about and what goon you are arguing with.
IE; More pets if its about how bob won their wars and less if its about summat like this but 2.5k or even 2k will do for now.

So by my math 2.5k or 2k x 4 = 10,000 or 8000 but ascn only had 6000 although most say a lot nearer to 4000 and a lot of alts (see how generous i am with 6k just for you) i guess you need to go back to goonie propoganda school and learn not to post claims about things you know nothing about.

PS; Nice alt insult at the end there i suggest you stick to just them in future its your area trust me.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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So 4000-5500 hey lets call it 6000 just for you against bob plus pets (i would not want to not include the pets as it would upset all the other members of your alliance who tell me over and over bob did nothing alone).

Id say come to 2.5 to 3k max maybe more depending on what the argument is about and what goon you are arguing with.
IE; More pets if its about how bob won their wars and less if its about summat like this but 2.5k or even 2k will do for now.

So by my math 2.5k or 2k x 4 = 10,000 or 8000 but ascn only had 6000 (see how generous i am with 6k just for you) i guess you need to go back to goonie propoganda school and learn not to post claims about thing you know nothing about.

PS; Nice alt insult at the end there i suggest you stick to just them in future.

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You seem to be having problems here. You jump up to 2-3k including bob allies and pets for some reason, and funnily enough you pull the numbers out of your arse. Oh wait it's to mitigate the fact that your are completely wrong and ASCN did in fact outnumber BoB by about 4 to 1. You're the one that stated a smaller entity can't defeat a bigger one and then proceed to ignore situations where this has already happened. Your supposition is built on **** and your logic is full of failure but I forgive you, you are only an alt after all.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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My inital point was that overwhelming numbers will always win against a lesser numbered foe and you made a claim that because ascn had over 4 x membership of bob that i was wrong and bob winning the war proved that numbers did not matter. I then claimed that ascn only had slightly more numbers so the term overwhelming did not apply.

Here are the actual factual numbers from the time:

In actual fact it was 1600 bob plus pets (il let you decide how many pets to include but i suggest you remember it for future referance cos i will).

Against a max of 5000 ascn but if you read the threads of the time the figures do not match because a lot of ascn did not participate in the fights.


But even if it was just 1600 bob vs 5000 ascn thats still with your claim of " dwarfed at least 4-1" then ascn should have been "at least" 6400 strong and that is if you do not include bobs pets in the equation.

Your out by 1400 ppl (the size of a very large alliance at that time).

Now i have found a link from all the way back then that i got these figures and facts from do you?.

PS; i did not include MC in the figures either.

PPS: id say its your figures that come out of your arse but then your a goon so ppl kinda expect it, but i do not forgive you because even a ****** would have learned by now.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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My inital point was that overwhelming numbers will always win against a lesser numbered foe and you made a claim that because ascn had over 4 x membership of bob that i was wrong and bob winning the war proved that numbers did not matter. I then claimed that ascn only had slightly more numbers so the term overwhelming did not apply.

Here are the actual factual numbers from the time:

In actual fact it was 1600 bob plus pets (il let you decide how many pets to include but i suggest you remember it for future referance cos i will).

Against a max of 5000 ascn but if you read the threads of the time the figures do not match because a lot of ascn did not participate in the fights.


But even if it was just 1600 bob vs 5000 ascn thats still with your claim of " dwarfed at least 4-1" then ascn should have been "at least" 6400 strong and that is if you do not include bobs pets in the equation.

Your out by 1400 ppl (the size of a very large alliance at that time).

Now i have found a link from all the way back then that i got these figures and facts from do you?.

PS; i did not include MC in the figures either.

PPS: id say its your figures that come out of your arse but then your a goon so ppl kinda expect it, but i do not forgive you because even a ****** would have learned by now.

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I figure seeing as how you have ignored my first example and created a numbers war neither you nor I care to verify to any sort of scientific certainty I'll just list a few alliances and corps who consistently fight outnumbered and have prevailed. Mercenary Coalition (most Merc corps actually but these more than others), Outbreak, Beagle Corp, Burn Eden, old school Triumvirate, Pandemic Legion, Red Alliance, Band of Brothers, TCF.

Your argument and your points are feeble and I'm pretty sure I'm done with you now.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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ASCN alone dwarfed BoB at least 4 to 1.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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your a fool

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Originally by: Nekumi

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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Your the one ignoring things, like the fact i said in a terratorial war for starters, and as far as my figures are concerned they come from a post from back then as i said in my previous post, if you had bothered to read it instead of trying to bail out you would have seen it.

Il link where i got my facts from here for you;

You wont like it cos it also has ascn ppl stating that a lot of them are not turning up to fight.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=421699&page=6

5000 vs 1600 without pets or mc included in the figures.

1600 x 4 = 6400 not 5000, go away and take youre inefectual and insulting trolling somwhere else.

As for as any of those ppl you listed above id love for you to show me a link where they took space while outnumbered over 4-1 but you cannot because your a fool with no facts and no idea on how those alliances operate

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Resorting to personal attacks when you can't back up the misinformation you post is something I thought was beneath even you.

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Originally by: Nekumi

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ASCN alone dwarfed BoB at least 4 to 1.

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Originally by: HEY LISTEN

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I re-added all the FACTS that you cut out you should real read the link instead of changing the subject.

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