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Stealing Honest	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:30:00 - [31] Agreed. If the directors don't want to give out their api's for mine then i don't want them.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:31:00 - [32] Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/02/2008 17:32:21 Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/02/2008 17:31:34 Originally by: facepalm johnson If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give. Obviously, a lot of shady people poasting in this thread. "Ah I see you have X amount in your wallet, could I interest you in donating a few billion to the alliance in exchange we can hand you a nifty carrier that you almost have the skills for." Problem with API keys is that you lay out on the table -everything-. Maybe I dont want people to know how much I have in my account? Why? Well if I end up turning down some CEO who went green with envy at the size of my wallet he may very well decide to try to get some of it out of me threw less then desireable means. Does API show the stocks a character holds? I know I wouldnt want any future CEO to know I hold interests in other corporations. Why? Well its my buisness what I do with my money, not any CEO's. Ultimately its up to the individual, however in my opinion using the excuse that the API is a way to weed out alts is idiotic and a false sense of security. As it has been pointed out a determined individual can create a character and level them long enough on another account to infiltrate a group.
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Omega Man You dont imagine part of that will be just giving a nw recruit all the director API keys do you? And why not? If you think that asking a limited api key is no big deal then you should be willing to give yours or any other from your corp to the one you are requesting it from, if he/she asks for it. Otherwise it probably is a big deal and unwise for a possible recruit to give it in the first place, right? ---
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:37:00 - [34] Edited by: Omega Man on 04/02/2008 17:40:26 well if you are talking about two bit, mom and pop and alt corp then prolly no reason for them to ask for an API key. However the rather larger more established corps need to do everything they can to protect their members. There are a lot of people out there who derive fun attempting to ruin other peoples game and a vigilant CEO will do everything in their power to ensure they dont end up in their corp. Really though, its simple, you dont want to give out your key, dont. Most of you saying you will not are saying you would not want to join a corp that asked you for a key. They dont want you, you dont want them. Its just another way a corp weeds out the people it does not want. - - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:39:00 - [35] Originally by: Mark Lucius Originally by: Omega Man You dont imagine part of that will be just giving a nw recruit all the director API keys do you? And why not? If you think that asking a limited api key is no big deal then you should be willing to give yours or any other from your corp to the one you are requesting it from, if he/she asks for it. Otherwise it probably is a big deal and unwise for a possible recruit to give it in the first place, right? Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies. Think it can do that buy giving out all its information everyime someone asks for it? That would be a silly dont you think? right? - - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:42:00 - [36] Originally by: Omega Man Think it can do that buy giving out all its information everyime someone asks for it? That would be a silly dont you think? right? No I don't think so, I mean, it's not like it is sensitive information. People can't do anything with it. What's the objection to giving it when someone asks for it? ---
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:42:00 - [37] Originally by: Omega Man Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies. And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account. If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Ricardo Phallus	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:45:00 - [38] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Omega Man Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies. And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account. If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp. It shouldn't be anywhere near 100% of the screening, but it does keep 100% of the untrained alt slot left to age spies away. Lets the counter intelligence guys focus on the professional :P
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Akita T And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account. If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp. Exactly. There is no reason to ask for it. And if you are asking for it, there is no reason not to share your own. ---
Ricardo Phallus	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Mark Lucius Exactly. There is no reason to ask for it. And if you are asking for it, there is no reason not to share your own. Reasons for: - To see alts on the same account, keeps the weak spies away if they aren't at least willing to train on a separate account. - To see that the character has the SPs they claim too. There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account.

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:52:00 - [41] Edited by: Akita T on 04/02/2008 17:53:51 In the end, it's a matter of taste. Like I said, I find asking for an API key pointless, and would never give mine when asked as a condition for something. As such, my corp does not require one to join it, and I would never join a corp that asks for it. But, if others feel like they HAVE to have it, nobody's stopping them from asking it. Also, if somebody wants to join them, he'd have to give it. Their problem, his problem. Originally by: Ricardo Phallus There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account. Wallet balances too, don't forget that. "Hey, man, I see you have 20 bil just sitting there, the corp needs it". No, thanks. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Akita T Ultimately, even a FULL API key would reveal next to nothing about a sufficiently determined (and patient/careful/smart/whatever) individual that wants to infiltrate a corp to cause damage. All you can do is separate the rookie thieves from the serious ones. So, meh, I guess it's some minor layer of security... but never let THAT fool you into thinking you have any security whatsoever with that alone... that's what gets you in deep trouble in the first place. As such, ASKING for the API key (limited or full) of your potential/future members is a futile gesture (especially if no further care is taken), and only serves to alienate people you would have wanted to join anyway (while not doing anything about those you wouldn't want to have anything to do with). In the grand scheme of things, asking for the API key as condition for recruitment is at best a way of weeding out obvious spies, and ultimately does nothing good for your corp in the long run... so it does more harm than good. But meh, if you want to ask for it, or if you want to give it, it's your bussiness. I'd never ASK for it, and would only accept one if given in order to dispense skill training advice (or other advice), its other purposes irrelevant, to me anyway. Conversely, I'd simply avoid to join a corp asking for it, since I'd consider them paranoid and deluded at the same time (a dangerous combination). Well the API thing isn't really needed for most corps I can understand that and like the IAC guy above said one of the best recruitment tools is recommendations. But the API, with the right people (hi DMZ), you can make great, useful tools organize everything. Take for instance BoB's killboard. It's mainly focused on pulling killmails based on the API system where in theory it should gather all of the killmails and lossmails for every member. Of course when I say theory I mean that we all know that the API is still buggy. I have to admit though that the trust factor is easy for me sense RKK's history speaks for itself, not to mention BoB as a whole.
Mark Lucius The Vinlanders	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:53:00 - [43] Edited by: Mark Lucius on 04/02/2008 17:55:34 Originally by: Ricardo Phallus Reasons for: - To see alts on the same account, keeps the weak spies away if they aren't at least willing to train on a separate account. - To see that the character has the SPs they claim too. There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account. So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right? edit My recommendation: if a corp asks you for you API key, ask theirs back. If they are not willing to give it, but demand yours for joining, I suggest you find a better corp. ---
Omega Man The Geddy Foundation	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:57:00 - [44] API keys is one of a battery of methods of screening. Anyone denying its usefulness is not fully aware of the facts. Anyone suggesting its used in isolation is not too bright. Anyone suggesting directors just hand over their API keys to any potential recruit on a "you show me yours i'll show you mine basis" cannot be very aware of the difference between a director API and an individuals API. I am guessing most of these people are not running corps and probably best they never do. However this bottom line is this. If a corp asks you for a limited API key as part of its recruitment process you have every right to say no. It does not matter what their reasons are for asking, it does not matter what your reasons are for refusing. You wanted to join the corp and all the benefits you imagined would accrue. - - Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345
ElweSingollo Starlancers Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.04 17:58:00 - [45] Simple really API keys are part of the screening process if you want to join my corp then you give me it otherwise well I aint going to cry a river over you buggering off... That being said I completely understand that legitimate recruits will and can be put off by this.. at the end of the day the way eve is designed makes it difficult for you to truly know whether anyone is legit take me for example I used to have 3 accounts which is a potential total of 9 different characters if I wanted I could train up maybe 6 or 7 of those for the pure purpose of infiltrating and defrauding/spying on other corps/alliance. That being said that is not my playstyle however I know a lot of people play that way and have to take it into consideration when I am recruiting. CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature *In Before I Get M* Again*
Ricardo Phallus	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:01:00 - [46] Edited by: Ricardo Phallus on 04/02/2008 18:05:10 Originally by: Mark Lucius So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right? Sure, one for one if I were the CEO with a potential recruit. There would be no harm in that, they'd get the names of a couple trade alts and the assurance that I have the skill points to do what I say I do. (Not sure how that works exactly but we can just assume) If he wants to trade keys with the rest of the corp, what ever thats between each of them. Like I mentioned in the first post I made in the thread the key is easily reset after the checks have been made, and if I'd just given mine out I'd probably change it an hour later. Why you ask, if there is no harm you say. Well, I'm one of those paranoid ones. It's harmless today, but mayhap not next month if evil monkeys take over api code, so I just click and close the door again. If one isn't paranoid there currently is no harm in letting your corp mates see your skills, could even help FCs.
ElweSingollo Starlancers Insurgency	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:16:00 - [47] Originally by: Ricardo Phallus Edited by: Ricardo Phallus on 04/02/2008 18:05:10 Originally by: Mark Lucius So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right? Sure, one for one if I were the CEO with a potential recruit. There would be no harm in that, they'd get the names of a couple trade alts and the assurance that I have the skill points to do what I say I do. (Not sure how that works exactly but we can just assume) If he wants to trade keys with the rest of the corp, what ever thats between each of them. Like I mentioned in the first post I made in the thread the key is easily reset after the checks have been made, and if I'd just given mine out I'd probably change it an hour later. Why you ask, if there is no harm you say. Well, I'm one of those paranoid ones. It's harmless today, but mayhap not next month if evil monkeys take over api code, so I just click and close the door again. If one isn't paranoid there currently is no harm in letting your corp mates see your skills, could even help FCs. I have to say personally that I have no problem with giving someone that info regarding myself in terms of a limited api (I have never yet asked anyone for a full API) I understand however that some CEO's would not wish to do that in a militaristic envireonment i.e. if you have Capiral Ship alt / maxed leadership alt or for example you somewhat of an eve celebrity FC and use a secondry character to FC with so you don't get primaried every fight ... myself I am to much of a nub so really doesn;t matter that much CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature *In Before I Get M* Again*
Maraude Fury Minmatar Shadow Of The Light Scorched Earth Directive	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:26:00 - [48] I use it in two ways. one, it does weed out the simple alt spy. It won't work against a REAL spy, as they'll use a whole seperate account for a real penetration. The main thing I use it for is two fold. One, it lets me know how much isk my guys have. Nothing worse then telling the guys they have a week to get ships ready for some pvp op, and come the day of the op find out they don't have ships becuase they've been off pirateing in low sec the whole week, and are broke from losses/no ratting/mining/mission *****ing. Two. For the new players, it's a hell of a lot easier to answer the "what should I train next" question easily by simply looking at eve mon, scrolling over to their char, and haveing a quick look at the skill sets. As a Side note, I've caught 3 spies who had detailed experience with a certain type of ship/weapon even though they dont' have a char on their account that can use it. EG, when a guy gives detailed explanations on how to use Recon ships to their best effect, from personal use, when they have no recon skills on the "only" char they have... things are fishy. EG: they let something slip about how they fit their carrier, or what drones they used on their carrier, when their account doesn't have the skills to use carriers.. I very carefuly nurse along the idea that I have a horrible memory, when in fact, I remember a lot of little tidbits that catch out spies. Dictator: Scorched Earth Directive Alliance Lets Burn It All Down
Constance Noring	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:29:00 - [49] The greatest benefit of asking API keys for recruitment is that it fends off the idiots who think they're so special that they can't submit themselves for a shallow background check.
Amira Silvermist The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:39:00 - [50] Is it still the case that even the full API key doesnt show the whole transaction history of a char? A few month back one could only get the last ?4000? entries and after asking on the forum someone mentioned that the devs put this limit in to prevent overburden the system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.04 18:41:00 - [51] Originally by: facepalm johnson If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give. I hope to fck you're not an American typing that sht. I'll keep my Fourth Amendment rights, thank you very much. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Angel DeMorphis Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.04 19:00:00 - [52] Edited by: Angel DeMorphis on 04/02/2008 19:05:37 Originally by: Janu Hull Originally by: facepalm johnson If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give. I hope to fck you're not an American typing that sht. I'll keep my Fourth Amendment rights, thank you very much. Vastly different in Eve than in actual law. In RL, th 4th Ammendment can protect the government from (a) invading privacy and (b) "finding" something that could easily be misconstrued against you. In Eve, what would you be afraid of revealing that the potential CEO could use against you? Your ISK balance? If they expect to have any right to any of the ISK in your wallet, you don't want to be with that corp. Your skills? If you want to be in that corp your mates will get to know you any way. Even if your skills reveal that, I don't know, you can fly a Hulk when you never intend to fly one again, if they expect you to do something in this game that you don't want to do (boring, etc.) then you don't want to be in that corp anyways. As an American, I can't see how the 4th Ammendment would apply at all. And the corp isn't going to do an unreasonable search and seizure, they're asking for it, not invading you. And they can't prosecute you in any way, either. So I don't know why you'd be so afraid of losing your Fourth Ammendment rights. Anyways, while the Limited API Key shouldn't be used as the only method of weeding out spies, it has more uses than just finding spies. For example, you can discover if the person applying has a bought character or other alt on that same account that they didn't want to tell you about. If there is another character the CEO can determine if that other character could pose a conflict of interest. Same goes with shares, if the Limited API reveals that. You don't want the CEO knowing you have a vested interest in another corp? And what if the alliance ever for whatever reason ends up in conflict or at war with that other corp? You don't think the CEO wants to know that you plan on not fulfilling your role in such engagement because of your vested interest in that alliance? Sure, they could deny you based on that, or you could not want to join, but then it's pretty much agreed that you two don't belong together. Frankly, it's a procedure that any serious non-high sec corp should consider. EDIT: And about the "Directors should give you their Limited API, then", consider: 1) If this is a procedure to at least attempt to weed out spies, then why would you give said spies such info just because they asked for it? 2) If recruiting happens regularly or in high numbers, the CEO/Directors would have to change their API just as often, while you would only have to change it once, to restrict access. 3) This would make it oh-so much easier for a "spy" of an opposing corp, even one who doesn't want to get into the corp, to get access to the CEO/Director's skills and discover just what they are good at/weak with so the "spy" can use it against them in war. But if you are a serious applicant to the corp, you actually do want your future corp mates to know that info, or you will eventually. My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED]
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.04 19:37:00 - [53] Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 19:44:31 Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 19:38:14 My corp requires a limited API to join and frankly I agree with other posters who say they wouldn't consider a corp or alliance that didn't ask for it. It's not just the savy 0.0 alliances it's almost all decent PvP corps as well that require it. We ask it for a couple reasons: 1) Security. The argument that "Well it only weeds out the 'dumb' spies/saboteurs." is so completely illogical that it's amazing it needs a retort but here it is anyway: My job as someone involved with recruitment is to use reasonable means to protect the corp and it's members from BOTH the dumb and the more intelligent/resourceful spies/saboteurs. Dumb ones probabably cause more grief for corps since there are more of them and there are a ton of corps that don't exercise even a small amount of due diligence. If you are hiring for your company do you not do any background and reference checks because "Oh well, the really smart ones will get through the check anyway."? Like I said - this argument against limited APIs needs to be placed where it belongs: on the trash heap. I have more invested in protecting the existing members of my corp then in the desire of potential recruit to keep secret who their alts are. That's where my loyalty lies and once someone is a member they get the benefit of that when other new members apply. 2) Check where the player is at with regards to SPs. A player may tell you they can fly x,y or z ship but by checking their skills you can see and advise them that perhaps they'd be better off fliying a,b and c for your ops until they get some support skills up. When they ask for skill training path advice it helps you give them informed advice. As to "I share mine you share yours". We used to keep everyone's up on a thread in our corp forum until some members asked us to move it to the private director thread. They fully supported us asking for theirs and anyone else that applied, however, they were more comfortable with it not being generally avaiable. So that's what we do now. If anyone needed mine to feel comfortable giving me theirs, I'd be fine with it. To the OP. If you decide after reading all these responses not to provide your limited API key to a prospective corp - that's fine. Play the way you like. The great thing about EVE is that our choices have consequences. If you choose for greater 'privacy' then you choose to not be a viable candidate for a large number of well run corps. If you choose to give your key then you may also feel comforted that every other person in the corp has gone through the same thing (and ask if that's the case). If you give your limited API key to a corp that chooses not to accept you then just be sure to generate a new limited API key once you know and 'presto', they no longer have access to your skills, etc. Good luck with your decision.
Kailea Shandrasekkar Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.04 19:48:00 - [54] 'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.' - some Franklin guy . The price demanded for the most precious of all things is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value.
Ard UnjiiGo The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:03:00 - [55] Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:04:22 Originally by: Kailea Shandrasekkar 'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.' - some Franklin guy If you are equating 'liberty' with sharing relevant information to others who may count on you then you're a hypocrite if you have a job and by even playing EVE since you had to give them some information to even be posting, playing or collecting a paycheck. That's a great quote btw and an excellent general sentiment for sure (ironically from a man who had more alts then anyone playing EVE has ever had - Poor Richard and all the rest). But show us you are smarter then being able to quote soundbites from famous Americans (something even Bush can do) by actually expressing how it really applies to this situation.
Duke Val'Doom The Watchers Society	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:11:00 - [56] Well, not that I want to apply a RL analogy to Eve, how many jobs have you ever applied to that you didn't have to go through a back ground check, with things like your Social security number and the like? I'd much rather give out a game API code where nothing can be done with it other then they can see how much ISK I have, it's not like they can get an Eve credit card in my name, and if the corp tries to spend your money for things you don't want, you can tell them to go stuff themselves. I had my nephew come in game a few months ago and since he was a total noob I found it much easier to help guide him with his skill training when I could look at his skills when he would ask me what he should do. I saved him ISK (Actually me since I was paying for most of his skills)by finding out what he wanted to do and telling him what skills to buy just by taking a quick glance, which other then a background check, is all any corp or alliance CEO should do other then a background check. All in all, If there is a reason you don't think you can trust the guys who will be watching your back in a fight/ while your mining, then I would definatly say NOT to join that corp. _____________________________________________ I Survived Bootini and all they gave me was this stupid forum post
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Originally by: Kailea Shandrasekkar 'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.' - some Franklin guy If you are equating 'liberty' with sharing relevant information to thers who may count on you then you're a hypocrite if you have a job and by even playing EVE since you had to give them some information to even be posting. That's a great quote btw and an excellent general sentiment for sure (ironically from a man who had more alts then anyone playing EVE has ever had - Poor Richard and all the rest). But show us you are smarter then being able to quote soundbites from famous Americans (something even Bush can do) by actually expressing how it really applies to this situation. The Fourth Amendment is a parallel to the Fifth Amendment in that it establishes the legal concept of innocence until proven guilty. None of us has to defend our innocence through either testimony or burden of physical proof. Our guilt must be attacked and uncovered through investigation and discovery, and no law can compel us to be cooperative in the matter. Parallel that to EVE, I'm not going to join an organization that sticks me under the microscope and treats me like a criminal just for asking to sign on. My corp employment history is openly available without having to pigeonhole me about, as is my security status. If you want to know more, you're going to have to do your own damned due dilligence when you consider me. If that means I have to spend a few weeks without access to corp hangars until I build trust, fine. If that limits my options when joining larger alliances, so be it. I personally find most of the paranoia in 0.0 alliances to be beyond assinine. Most of you make your own worst enemies through simple lack of common courtesy. Sure some groups are hostile simply because they want PvP, which is fine, because they know enough to respect people who give them a good fight within the mechanics of the game. But a lot of the politics out there are just utterly trite. Its not even as mature as street gang level chestbeating, some of it is straight out of grade school. They call EVE a sandbox game, but some of them take that a little too literally. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Major PewPew Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:20:00 - [58] Originally by: knifee Seems to be more or less the same as people asking for screen shots of the char. log in screen. Some people will get upset though. uh no it isnt? Reason being is this. With the screenshot method of recruiting you only see what characters are on the account. Login screens can be EASILY faked. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use photoshop and make your alt char slots look empty. Also, the API allows the CEO or recruiting officer to go into eve-mon and put your api key in, see all thre character slots on the account. Also with the limited api key, the CEO or recruiting officer can pull up the skill sheet of the applying recruit. This shows them the exact SP you have. It stops people saying "yeah my char has been around for 4 years and I've got 60m SP" with alt chars that only have 1mil SP. Its far more secure than the screenshot proof method.
Arvald Caldari Devilish Intentinos	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:24:00 - [59] i only ask the members in the corp im in for their api when they need help with ship fits
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club Scalar Federation	Posted - 2008.02.04 20:24:00 - [60] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Still the best recruitment tool is recomendations. ^^ so signed



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