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DasDizzy
Terr0r F0rce
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:29:00 -
[1]
it it to much to ask people of their limited API key when recruiting?
In federate gallente, armor tanks YOU |
Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:37:00 -
[2]
It's perfectly reasonable to ask for the limited key to prove that they actually have skillpoints/no well known alts on the account.
I wouldn't give mine out though.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:40:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Big Al
I wouldn't give mine out though.
Why? It's limited for a reason...
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facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.04 12:43:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Why? It's limited for a reason...
Cause some has a CAOD alt-poaster to hide! :)
Back on topic - I wouldn't recruit anyone who didn't agree to limited access.
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knifee
Caldari
Rage Academy
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:04:00 -
[5]
Seems to be more or less the same as people asking for screen shots of the char. log in screen.
Some people will get upset though.
www.eve-dev.net - making a good thing better
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari
Life is Experience
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:14:00 -
[6]
Screen shots are one thing, an API key limited or not is something totally different.
To what purpose is the CEO/Director/The Cleaner going to use it. In what way can it be used?
And is it really necessary when it just takes a >click< to renew it and cease all old activity (unless you give it out again).
To be honest, I use my API key for Eve-Mon. It's the only program I use it on. It helps me to figure out my next (or 3 months) skills to train. Why any one else would want this I do not know.
If CEO's can't/don't/won't trust a possible member at their word then I can't see how the recruit will trust them.
Screenshots however are different. They can be edited, no one in the corp needs to or should know how much ISK you have and where you're currently docked. If it's for alt purposes, well I think most people realize that people do enjoy other things to which one entity may frown upon. As long as it doesn't get out then there is an element of reasonable denial.
To what purpose will the API key be used, DasDizzy?
Life is about memories the more the better.
End Slavery. |
Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:16:00 -
[7]
It is extremely of the utmost importance for a CEO to ask for as much as possible, and then some.
Only in this way can a recruit come to understand that the corp he is joining takes the game way too seriously and that these people are best avoided.
--
Anything I said above is subject to the standard provision:
Alts subvert it, and make it untrustworthy. |
Solasta Kovacs
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:30:00 -
[8]
Anyone who has flown with major 00 alliances will know how common spies / sabatuers are and the damage they can do.
Id be concerned to join any spaceholding alliance that didnt ask for this information tbh.
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:34:00 -
[9]
only thing i hate about the limited api is it shows how much is you have.... that should be removed tbh and implants allso
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This is Me |
Kyoto Luyi
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:34:00 -
[10]
They ask for it to make sure you're not a GHSC alt... 
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.02.04 13:38:00 -
[11]
It's perfectly normal to ask limited api key when recruiting people as recruiter is not interested in recruiting your alts, they are interested in recruiting you and this verifies for them that you are indeed who you claim to be. Besides it's easily circumenvented by having separate account for 'infiltration' same as it's relatively easy to edit screenshots.
Trust goes both ways. You are getting some acsess to corporate assets and they are wanting to make sure you are who you say to be. Don't like it - don't join them.
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Kastar
Paragon Horizons
Intergalactic Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:19:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kastar on 04/02/2008 14:20:52
It's a sad way for people to exert control over someone. (I didn't say you can control someone with the API, watch out smartypants  )
Trust does NOT have to go both ways. You do NOT HAVE to trust a new recruit. You simply do not give new people access to valuable stuff unless YOU trust them or they have deserved YOUR trust.
Asking too many questions is usually a sign of overconfidence, egocentrism or just considering yourself way too important. Some aspects of ones accounts people just don't have business with.
In the end it's your choice. If people are too paranoid to let you in without turning you inside out, you better move on to another group that wants to take you in without a threshold.
EDIT: it's a game, people might as well ask you for a pdf copy of your public track record or CV. 
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Emily Spankratchet
Minmatar
Pragmatics
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:47:00 -
[13]
All this paranoia, to so little effect. All that asking for screenshots or API keys does is weed out the people too stupid or poor to use a second account for their corporate crimes.
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Ricardo Phallus
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:47:00 -
[14]
The Limited API should be standard practice for recruitment. Character screen screenshots can be faked, the limited API key will show all the characters on the account and their skills.
For the truly paranoid player it can be changed after the needed checks have been made.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Volition Cult
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:50:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
It is extremely of the utmost importance for a CEO to ask for as much as possible, and then some.
Only in this way can a recruit come to understand that the corp he is joining takes the game way too seriously and that these people are best avoided.
I agree that the CEO should be up front with potential recruits with what will be expected of them in his corporation. If someone has an issue with providing screenshots or api keys then they are not the type of player you want in your corporation.
Volition Cult Recruitment Thread
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 14:57:00 -
[16]
Limited api key for general account overview; Characters and Skill points detailed.
Full api key if your paranoid about someone; Wallet journal.
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Buxaroo
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:01:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ricardo Phallus
The Limited API should be standard practice for recruitment. Character screen screenshots can be faked, the limited API key will show all the characters on the account and their skills.
For the truly paranoid player it can be changed after the needed checks have been made.
What he said.
Any well ran corporation in EVE will be using at the least a limited key, at best the full api key of a player. I can understand people's opinion and belief of not giving out a full api key, let alone a limited one. But for any militaristic/war corp/alliance in game its a must. Too many spies, too many corp thieves around that can hinder your alliance/corp.
But the API key has so much more versatility than just the security reasons as well. Killboards for instance. Or a POS manager, so many tools that you can take advantage of with a API key to get things organized.
As for privacy concerns like how much isk you have etc, why hide it? If you can't trust your CEO/Directors about your privacy, then you are in the wrong corp my friend.
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Zakgram
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:21:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Zakgram on 04/02/2008 15:21:43
Originally by: Buxaroo
Any well ran corporation in EVE will be using at the least a limited key, at best the full api key of a player. I can understand people's opinion and belief of not giving out a full api key, let alone a limited one. But for any militaristic/war corp/alliance in game its a must. Too many spies, too many corp thieves around that can hinder your alliance/corp.
It's an account key, not a character key. If it were a character key then.. maybe... but what this character does is totally different to other characters on the account.
And how does looking at my skills tell you if a character is a spy? Surely looking at a skill list won't show up "spying 5". So what do you learn apart from the character exists and has some skills?
Originally by: Buxaroo
But the API key has so much more versatility than just the security reasons as well. Killboards for instance. Or a POS manager, so many tools that you can take advantage of with a API key to get things organized.
That the account owner can use, sure. However this highlights the problem with the per-account API system - if someone is given access then they see all the kills across all the characters on the account...
Originally by: Buxaroo
As for privacy concerns like how much isk you have etc, why hide it? If you can't trust your CEO/Directors about your privacy, then you are in the wrong corp my friend.
What is your home address? What is your telephone number? Mothers maiden name? Date of birth? Bank account number and sort code? What music do you like? Books? Where do you eat?
i.e. privacy is just that. All of the above is available to your credit card company but that doesn't mean that it should be given to anybody else... nor should your account api.
Now a character API... that I *may* think about differently
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:26:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gaven Blands on 04/02/2008 15:27:06
I'll give you my API key, in the name of trust, if you give me the API key of everybody I am expected to trust, ie, everybody in your alliance.
See how it doesn't seem to work the other way around. Keep your alliance. It's not worth it.
--
Anything I said above is subject to the standard provision:
Alts subvert it, and make it untrustworthy. |
Eilaga Starshadow
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Posted - 2008.02.04 15:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zakgram
(...)
It's an account key, not a character key. If it were a character key then.. maybe... but what this character does is totally different to other characters on the account.
This is exactly what is not true. A spy generally will not act as an independent character, but slave away for the main - giving out info or sabotaging infrastructure without getting anything in return. An independent character would demand something in exchange for the info, or give out info because he wants to take revenge for something. A limited API key at least allows to verify:
a) There are no known hostile mains on that account behind the one trying to join.
b) The one trying to join was actively training his skills, and is not a 1 year old character posing as experienced player, while in fact the main on that account was getting all the training time.
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Buxaroo
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:01:00 -
[21]
Guys, you do know this isn't RL bank accounts we are talking about here right? And you do know that they can only gain information from the API and not be able at all to change anything with the API right? Then whats the harm? It's a game.
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Kastar
Paragon Horizons
Intergalactic Brotherhood
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:02:00 -
[22]
Quote:
As for privacy concerns like how much isk you have etc, why hide it? If you can't trust your CEO/Directors about your privacy, then you are in the wrong corp my friend.
Well, it's not a secret that people usually tend to use whatever knowledge they have. Why mentioning trust from the CEO/directors if exactly trust is the reason the people would hesitate to give out their limited API ?
Your arguments make sense Bux, and I do understand what you're trying to say that it's a must for a militaristic group, but however note that senseless admin and the fact that you don't necessarly get something in return for YOUR trust goes beyond what most people expect from a game in hobby time.
Besides, it doesn't help the corp or alliance in any way. You can't be serious that this stops or slows someone with bad intentions ?
I done it myself in the past... talked into sending out screenies of my login screen. It didn't stop the alliance or corp I was joining from being rubbish
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:15:00 -
[23]
Ultimately, even a FULL API key would reveal next to nothing about a sufficiently determined (and patient/careful/smart/whatever) individual that wants to infiltrate a corp to cause damage.
All you can do is separate the rookie thieves from the serious ones.
So, meh, I guess it's some minor layer of security... but never let THAT fool you into thinking you have any security whatsoever with that alone... that's what gets you in deep trouble in the first place.
As such, ASKING for the API key (limited or full) of your potential/future members is a futile gesture (especially if no further care is taken), and only serves to alienate people you would have wanted to join anyway (while not doing anything about those you wouldn't want to have anything to do with).
In the grand scheme of things, asking for the API key as condition for recruitment is at best a way of weeding out obvious spies, and ultimately does nothing good for your corp in the long run... so it does more harm than good.
But meh, if you want to ask for it, or if you want to give it, it's your bussiness.
I'd never ASK for it, and would only accept one if given in order to dispense skill training advice (or other advice), its other purposes irrelevant, to me anyway.
Conversely, I'd simply avoid to join a corp asking for it, since I'd consider them paranoid and deluded at the same time (a dangerous combination).
1|2|3|4|5. |
Phoebus Athenian
Gallente
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:41:00 -
[24]
*Feels better about KIA Recruitment after reading this thread...*
See, we're not asking for too much! ^^
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Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I'll give you my API key, in the name of trust, if you give me the API key of everybody I am expected to trust, ie, everybody in your alliance.
See how it doesn't seem to work the other way around. Keep your alliance. It's not worth it.
This tbh.
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facepalm johnson
a sackful of sacrificial sacrifices
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Posted - 2008.02.04 16:52:00 -
[26]
If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give.
Obviously, a lot of shady people poasting in this thread.
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Stealing Honest
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Mark Lucius
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I'll give you my API key, in the name of trust, if you give me the API key of everybody I am expected to trust, ie, everybody in your alliance.
See how it doesn't seem to work the other way around. Keep your alliance. It's not worth it.
This tbh.
I'm going to agree here. Trust is a two way street. If API keys are no big deal and you expect them from recruits. Then you should give each recruit the api keys to the ceo and all directors of your corp/alliance in return.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:14:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 04/02/2008 17:15:45
Originally by: Gaven Blands
It is extremely of the utmost importance for a CEO to ask for as much as possible, and then some.
Only in this way can a recruit come to understand that the corp he is joining takes the game way too seriously and that these people are best avoided.
QFT
It isn't any of their business what other alts I might have on that account. If they can't understand that, I won't play with them.
Besides, any "security" a CEO might think they get from this request is so much bunk; it won't show that second account which is more likely to hold the offending alt anyways (Since then they have the "cover" of being logged on at the same time and can cover their tracks; ie it isn't one of the other).
Originally by: Audri Fisher
On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:19:00 -
[29]
Still the best recruitment tool is recomendations.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Stealing Honest
Originally by: Mark Lucius
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I'll give you my API key, in the name of trust, if you give me the API key of everybody I am expected to trust, ie, everybody in your alliance.
See how it doesn't seem to work the other way around. Keep your alliance. It's not worth it.
This tbh.
I'm going to agree here. Trust is a two way street. If API keys are no big deal and you expect them from recruits. Then you should give each recruit the api keys to the ceo and all directors of your corp/alliance in return.
The corp is trying to defend itself against undesirable characters.
You dont imagine part of that will be just giving a nw recruit all the director API keys do you?
However this is a perfect partnership, you dont want to give out your limited API key, they dont want you.
Whats the problem?
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Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
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Stealing Honest
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:30:00 -
[31]
Agreed. If the directors don't want to give out their api's for mine then i don't want them.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:31:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/02/2008 17:32:21
Edited by: Jacob Mei on 04/02/2008 17:31:34
Originally by: facepalm johnson
If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give.
Obviously, a lot of shady people poasting in this thread.
"Ah I see you have X amount in your wallet, could I interest you in donating a few billion to the alliance in exchange we can hand you a nifty carrier that you almost have the skills for."
Problem with API keys is that you lay out on the table -everything-. Maybe I dont want people to know how much I have in my account? Why? Well if I end up turning down some CEO who went green with envy at the size of my wallet he may very well decide to try to get some of it out of me threw less then desireable means.
Does API show the stocks a character holds? I know I wouldnt want any future CEO to know I hold interests in other corporations. Why? Well its my buisness what I do with my money, not any CEO's.
Ultimately its up to the individual, however in my opinion using the excuse that the API is a way to weed out alts is idiotic and a false sense of security. As it has been pointed out a determined individual can create a character and level them long enough on another account to infiltrate a group.
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Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Omega Man
You dont imagine part of that will be just giving a nw recruit all the director API keys do you?
And why not? If you think that asking a limited api key is no big deal then you should be willing to give yours or any other from your corp to the one you are requesting it from, if he/she asks for it. Otherwise it probably is a big deal and unwise for a possible recruit to give it in the first place, right? 
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:37:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Omega Man on 04/02/2008 17:40:26
well if you are talking about two bit, mom and pop and alt corp then prolly no reason for them to ask for an API key.
However the rather larger more established corps need to do everything they can to protect their members.
There are a lot of people out there who derive fun attempting to ruin other peoples game and a vigilant CEO will do everything in their power to ensure they dont end up in their corp.
Really though, its simple, you dont want to give out your key, dont.
Most of you saying you will not are saying you would not want to join a corp that asked you for a key.
They dont want you, you dont want them.
Its just another way a corp weeds out the people it does not want.
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Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:39:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Mark Lucius
Originally by: Omega Man
You dont imagine part of that will be just giving a nw recruit all the director API keys do you?
And why not? If you think that asking a limited api key is no big deal then you should be willing to give yours or any other from your corp to the one you are requesting it from, if he/she asks for it. Otherwise it probably is a big deal and unwise for a possible recruit to give it in the first place, right?
Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies.
Think it can do that buy giving out all its information everyime someone asks for it?
That would be a silly dont you think? right?
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Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Omega Man
Think it can do that buy giving out all its information everyime someone asks for it?
That would be a silly dont you think? right?
No I don't think so, I mean, it's not like it is sensitive information. People can't do anything with it. What's the objection to giving it when someone asks for it?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:42:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Omega Man
Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies.
And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account.
If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Ricardo Phallus
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:45:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Omega Man
Because the corp is trying to protect itself against spies.
And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account.
If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp.
It shouldn't be anywhere near 100% of the screening, but it does keep 100% of the untrained alt slot left to age spies away. Lets the counter intelligence guys focus on the professional :P
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Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T
And, as several people already pointed out, them having your API key is almost pointless if you're a REAL spy, one that's NOT stupid enough to do anything like keep his spy char and main char on the same account.
If that is the way you plan to screen for spies, then my condoleances for your corp.
Exactly. There is no reason to ask for it. And if you are asking for it, there is no reason not to share your own.
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Ricardo Phallus
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:50:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mark Lucius
Exactly. There is no reason to ask for it. And if you are asking for it, there is no reason not to share your own.
Reasons for:
- To see alts on the same account, keeps the weak spies away if they aren't at least willing to train on a separate account.
- To see that the character has the SPs they claim too.
There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:52:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/02/2008 17:53:51
In the end, it's a matter of taste.
Like I said, I find asking for an API key pointless, and would never give mine when asked as a condition for something.
As such, my corp does not require one to join it, and I would never join a corp that asks for it.
But, if others feel like they HAVE to have it, nobody's stopping them from asking it.
Also, if somebody wants to join them, he'd have to give it.
Their problem, his problem.
Originally by: Ricardo Phallus
There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account.
Wallet balances too, don't forget that.
"Hey, man, I see you have 20 bil just sitting there, the corp needs it".
No, thanks.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Buxaroo
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:53:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Akita T
Ultimately, even a FULL API key would reveal next to nothing about a sufficiently determined (and patient/careful/smart/whatever) individual that wants to infiltrate a corp to cause damage.
All you can do is separate the rookie thieves from the serious ones.
So, meh, I guess it's some minor layer of security... but never let THAT fool you into thinking you have any security whatsoever with that alone... that's what gets you in deep trouble in the first place.
As such, ASKING for the API key (limited or full) of your potential/future members is a futile gesture (especially if no further care is taken), and only serves to alienate people you would have wanted to join anyway (while not doing anything about those you wouldn't want to have anything to do with).
In the grand scheme of things, asking for the API key as condition for recruitment is at best a way of weeding out obvious spies, and ultimately does nothing good for your corp in the long run... so it does more harm than good.
But meh, if you want to ask for it, or if you want to give it, it's your bussiness.
I'd never ASK for it, and would only accept one if given in order to dispense skill training advice (or other advice), its other purposes irrelevant, to me anyway.
Conversely, I'd simply avoid to join a corp asking for it, since I'd consider them paranoid and deluded at the same time (a dangerous combination).
Well the API thing isn't really needed for most corps I can understand that and like the IAC guy above said one of the best recruitment tools is recommendations. But the API, with the right people (hi DMZ), you can make great, useful tools organize everything. Take for instance BoB's killboard. It's mainly focused on pulling killmails based on the API system where in theory it should gather all of the killmails and lossmails for every member. Of course when I say theory I mean that we all know that the API is still buggy.
I have to admit though that the trust factor is easy for me sense RKK's history speaks for itself, not to mention BoB as a whole.
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Mark Lucius
The Vinlanders
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:53:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Mark Lucius on 04/02/2008 17:55:34
Originally by: Ricardo Phallus
Reasons for:
- To see alts on the same account, keeps the weak spies away if they aren't at least willing to train on a separate account.
- To see that the character has the SPs they claim too.
There is no reason NOT to give a limited API key unless you are trying to hide what alts you have on the same account.
So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right?
*edit*
My recommendation: if a corp asks you for you API key, ask theirs back. If they are not willing to give it, but demand yours for joining, I suggest you find a better corp.
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:57:00 -
[44]
API keys is one of a battery of methods of screening.
Anyone denying its usefulness is not fully aware of the facts.
Anyone suggesting its used in isolation is not too bright.
Anyone suggesting directors just hand over their API keys to any potential recruit on a "you show me yours i'll show you mine basis" cannot be very aware of the difference between a director API and an individuals API.
I am guessing most of these people are not running corps and probably best they never do.
However this bottom line is this.
If a corp asks you for a limited API key as part of its recruitment process you have every right to say no.
It does not matter what their reasons are for asking, it does not matter what your reasons are for refusing.
You wanted to join the corp and all the benefits you imagined would accrue.
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Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
ElweSingollo
Starlancers
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.04 17:58:00 -
[45]
Simple really API keys are part of the screening process if you want to join my corp then you give me it otherwise well I aint going to cry a river over you buggering off...
That being said I completely understand that legitimate recruits will and can be put off by this.. at the end of the day the way eve is designed makes it difficult for you to truly know whether anyone is legit take me for example I used to have 3 accounts which is a potential total of 9 different characters if I wanted I could train up maybe 6 or 7 of those for the pure purpose of infiltrating and defrauding/spying on other corps/alliance. That being said that is not my playstyle however I know a lot of people play that way and have to take it into consideration when I am recruiting.
CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
In Before I Get M***** Again
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Ricardo Phallus
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:01:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ricardo Phallus on 04/02/2008 18:05:10
Originally by: Mark Lucius
So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right?
Sure, one for one if I were the CEO with a potential recruit. There would be no harm in that, they'd get the names of a couple trade alts and the assurance that I have the skill points to do what I say I do. (Not sure how that works exactly but we can just assume)
If he wants to trade keys with the rest of the corp, what ever thats between each of them.
Like I mentioned in the first post I made in the thread the key is easily reset after the checks have been made, and if I'd just given mine out I'd probably change it an hour later.
Why you ask, if there is no harm you say. Well, I'm one of those paranoid ones. It's harmless today, but mayhap not next month if evil monkeys take over api code, so I just click and close the door again. If one isn't paranoid there currently is no harm in letting your corp mates see your skills, could even help FCs.
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ElweSingollo
Starlancers
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ricardo Phallus
Edited by: Ricardo Phallus on 04/02/2008 18:05:10
Originally by: Mark Lucius
So return the favour. I mean, it is not a big deal, right?
Sure, one for one if I were the CEO with a potential recruit. There would be no harm in that, they'd get the names of a couple trade alts and the assurance that I have the skill points to do what I say I do. (Not sure how that works exactly but we can just assume)
If he wants to trade keys with the rest of the corp, what ever thats between each of them.
Like I mentioned in the first post I made in the thread the key is easily reset after the checks have been made, and if I'd just given mine out I'd probably change it an hour later.
Why you ask, if there is no harm you say. Well, I'm one of those paranoid ones. It's harmless today, but mayhap not next month if evil monkeys take over api code, so I just click and close the door again. If one isn't paranoid there currently is no harm in letting your corp mates see your skills, could even help FCs.
I have to say personally that I have no problem with giving someone that info regarding myself in terms of a limited api (I have never yet asked anyone for a full API) I understand however that some CEO's would not wish to do that in a militaristic envireonment i.e. if you have Capiral Ship alt / maxed leadership alt or for example you somewhat of an eve celebrity FC and use a secondry character to FC with so you don't get primaried every fight ... myself I am to much of a nub so really doesn;t matter that much
CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
In Before I Get M***** Again
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Maraude Fury
Minmatar
Shadow Of The Light
Scorched Earth Directive
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:26:00 -
[48]
I use it in two ways.
one, it does weed out the simple alt spy. It won't work against a REAL spy, as they'll use a whole seperate account for a real penetration.
The main thing I use it for is two fold.
One, it lets me know how much isk my guys have. Nothing worse then telling the guys they have a week to get ships ready for some pvp op, and come the day of the op find out they don't have ships becuase they've been off pirateing in low sec the whole week, and are broke from losses/no ratting/mining/mission *****ing.
Two. For the new players, it's a hell of a lot easier to answer the "what should I train next" question easily by simply looking at eve mon, scrolling over to their char, and haveing a quick look at the skill sets.
As a Side note, I've caught 3 spies who had detailed experience with a certain type of ship/weapon even though they dont' have a char on their account that can use it.
EG, when a guy gives detailed explanations on how to use Recon ships to their best effect, from personal use, when they have no recon skills on the "only" char they have... things are fishy.
EG: they let something slip about how they fit their carrier, or what drones they used on their carrier, when their account doesn't have the skills to use carriers..
I very carefuly nurse along the idea that I have a horrible memory, when in fact, I remember a lot of little tidbits that catch out spies.
Dictator: Scorched Earth Directive Alliance
Lets Burn It All Down
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Constance Noring
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:29:00 -
[49]
The greatest benefit of asking API keys for recruitment is that it fends off the idiots who think they're so special that they can't submit themselves for a shallow background check.
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Amira Silvermist
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:39:00 -
[50]
Is it still the case that even the full API key doesnt show the whole transaction history of a char?
A few month back one could only get the last ?4000? entries and after asking on the forum someone mentioned that the devs put this limit in to prevent overburden the system.
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.04 18:41:00 -
[51]
Originally by: facepalm johnson
If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give.
I hope to f*ck you're not an American typing that sh*t. I'll keep my Fourth Amendment rights, thank you very much.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 19:00:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Angel DeMorphis on 04/02/2008 19:05:37
Originally by: Janu Hull
Originally by: facepalm johnson
If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give.
I hope to f*ck you're not an American typing that sh*t. I'll keep my Fourth Amendment rights, thank you very much.
Vastly different in Eve than in actual law. In RL, th 4th Ammendment can protect the government from (a) invading privacy and (b) "finding" something that could easily be misconstrued against you. In Eve, what would you be afraid of revealing that the potential CEO could use against you? Your ISK balance? If they expect to have any right to any of the ISK in your wallet, you don't want to be with that corp. Your skills? If you want to be in that corp your mates will get to know you any way. Even if your skills reveal that, I don't know, you can fly a Hulk when you never intend to fly one again, if they expect you to do something in this game that you don't want to do (boring, etc.) then you don't want to be in that corp anyways.
As an American, I can't see how the 4th Ammendment would apply at all. And the corp isn't going to do an unreasonable search and seizure, they're asking for it, not invading you. And they can't prosecute you in any way, either. So I don't know why you'd be so afraid of losing your Fourth Ammendment rights.
Anyways, while the Limited API Key shouldn't be used as the only method of weeding out spies, it has more uses than just finding spies. For example, you can discover if the person applying has a bought character or other alt on that same account that they didn't want to tell you about. If there is another character the CEO can determine if that other character could pose a conflict of interest. Same goes with shares, if the Limited API reveals that. You don't want the CEO knowing you have a vested interest in another corp? And what if the alliance ever for whatever reason ends up in conflict or at war with that other corp? You don't think the CEO wants to know that you plan on not fulfilling your role in such engagement because of your vested interest in that alliance? Sure, they could deny you based on that, or you could not want to join, but then it's pretty much agreed that you two don't belong together.
Frankly, it's a procedure that any serious non-high sec corp should consider.
EDIT: And about the "Directors should give you their Limited API, then", consider:
1) If this is a procedure to at least attempt to weed out spies, then why would you give said spies such info just because they asked for it?
2) If recruiting happens regularly or in high numbers, the CEO/Directors would have to change their API just as often, while you would only have to change it once, to restrict access.
3) This would make it oh-so much easier for a "spy" of an opposing corp, even one who doesn't want to get into the corp, to get access to the CEO/Director's skills and discover just what they are good at/weak with so the "spy" can use it against them in war. But if you are a serious applicant to the corp, you actually do want your future corp mates to know that info, or you will eventually.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:37:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 19:44:31
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 19:38:14
My corp requires a limited API to join and frankly I agree with other posters who say they wouldn't consider a corp or alliance that didn't ask for it. It's not just the savy 0.0 alliances it's almost all decent PvP corps as well that require it.
We ask it for a couple reasons:
1) Security. The argument that "Well it only weeds out the 'dumb' spies/saboteurs." is so completely illogical that it's amazing it needs a retort but here it is anyway: My job as someone involved with recruitment is to use reasonable means to protect the corp and it's members from BOTH the dumb and the more intelligent/resourceful spies/saboteurs. Dumb ones probabably cause more grief for corps since there are more of them and there are a ton of corps that don't exercise even a small amount of due diligence. If you are hiring for your company do you not do any background and reference checks because "Oh well, the really smart ones will get through the check anyway."? Like I said - this argument against limited APIs needs to be placed where it belongs: on the trash heap. I have more invested in protecting the existing members of my corp then in the desire of potential recruit to keep secret who their alts are. That's where my loyalty lies and once someone is a member they get the benefit of that when other new members apply.
2) Check where the player is at with regards to SPs. A player may tell you they can fly x,y or z ship but by checking their skills you can see and advise them that perhaps they'd be better off fliying a,b and c for your ops until they get some support skills up. When they ask for skill training path advice it helps you give them informed advice.
As to "I share mine you share yours". We used to keep everyone's up on a thread in our corp forum until some members asked us to move it to the private director thread. They fully supported us asking for theirs and anyone else that applied, however, they were more comfortable with it not being generally avaiable. So that's what we do now. If anyone needed mine to feel comfortable giving me theirs, I'd be fine with it.
To the OP. If you decide after reading all these responses not to provide your limited API key to a prospective corp - that's fine. Play the way you like. The great thing about EVE is that our choices have consequences. If you choose for greater 'privacy' then you choose to not be a viable candidate for a large number of well run corps. If you choose to give your key then you may also feel comforted that every other person in the corp has gone through the same thing (and ask if that's the case). If you give your limited API key to a corp that chooses not to accept you then just be sure to generate a new limited API key once you know and 'presto', they no longer have access to your skills, etc.
Good luck with your decision.
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.04 19:48:00 -
[54]
'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.'
- some Franklin guy
.
The price demanded for the most precious of all things is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value. |
Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:03:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:04:22
Originally by: Kailea Shandrasekkar
'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.'
- some Franklin guy
If you are equating 'liberty' with sharing relevant information to others who may count on you then you're a hypocrite if you have a job and by even playing EVE since you had to give them some information to even be posting, playing or collecting a paycheck.
That's a great quote btw and an excellent general sentiment for sure (ironically from a man who had more alts then anyone playing EVE has ever had - Poor Richard and all the rest). But show us you are smarter then being able to quote soundbites from famous Americans (something even Bush can do) by actually expressing how it really applies to this situation.
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Duke Val'Doom
The Watchers Society
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:11:00 -
[56]
Well, not that I want to apply a RL analogy to Eve, how many jobs have you ever applied to that you didn't have to go through a back ground check, with things like your Social security number and the like? I'd much rather give out a game API code where nothing can be done with it other then they can see how much ISK I have, it's not like they can get an Eve credit card in my name, and if the corp tries to spend your money for things you don't want, you can tell them to go stuff themselves.
I had my nephew come in game a few months ago and since he was a total noob I found it much easier to help guide him with his skill training when I could look at his skills when he would ask me what he should do. I saved him ISK (Actually me since I was paying for most of his skills)by finding out what he wanted to do and telling him what skills to buy just by taking a quick glance, which other then a background check, is all any corp or alliance CEO should do other then a background check.
All in all, If there is a reason you don't think you can trust the guys who will be watching your back in a fight/ while your mining, then I would definatly say NOT to join that corp.
_____________________________________________
I Survived Bootini and all they gave me was this stupid forum post |
Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:16:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Originally by: Kailea Shandrasekkar
'Those Who Would Sacrifice Liberty for Security Deserve Neither.'
- some Franklin guy
If you are equating 'liberty' with sharing relevant information to thers who may count on you then you're a hypocrite if you have a job and by even playing EVE since you had to give them some information to even be posting.
That's a great quote btw and an excellent general sentiment for sure (ironically from a man who had more alts then anyone playing EVE has ever had - Poor Richard and all the rest). But show us you are smarter then being able to quote soundbites from famous Americans (something even Bush can do) by actually expressing how it really applies to this situation.
The Fourth Amendment is a parallel to the Fifth Amendment in that it establishes the legal concept of innocence until proven guilty. None of us has to defend our innocence through either testimony or burden of physical proof. Our guilt must be attacked and uncovered through investigation and discovery, and no law can compel us to be cooperative in the matter.
Parallel that to EVE, I'm not going to join an organization that sticks me under the microscope and treats me like a criminal just for asking to sign on. My corp employment history is openly available without having to pigeonhole me about, as is my security status. If you want to know more, you're going to have to do your own damned due dilligence when you consider me. If that means I have to spend a few weeks without access to corp hangars until I build trust, fine. If that limits my options when joining larger alliances, so be it.
I personally find most of the paranoia in 0.0 alliances to be beyond assinine. Most of you make your own worst enemies through simple lack of common courtesy. Sure some groups are hostile simply because they want PvP, which is fine, because they know enough to respect people who give them a good fight within the mechanics of the game. But a lot of the politics out there are just utterly trite. Its not even as mature as street gang level chestbeating, some of it is straight out of grade school. They call EVE a sandbox game, but some of them take that a little too literally.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device. |
Major PewPew
Dragons Of Redemption
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: knifee
Seems to be more or less the same as people asking for screen shots of the char. log in screen.
Some people will get upset though.
uh no it isnt? Reason being is this. With the screenshot method of recruiting you only see what characters are on the account. Login screens can be EASILY faked. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use photoshop and make your alt char slots look empty.
Also, the API allows the CEO or recruiting officer to go into eve-mon and put your api key in, see all thre character slots on the account. Also with the limited api key, the CEO or recruiting officer can pull up the skill sheet of the applying recruit. This shows them the exact SP you have. It stops people saying "yeah my char has been around for 4 years and I've got 60m SP" with alt chars that only have 1mil SP.
Its far more secure than the screenshot proof method.
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Arvald
Caldari
Devilish Intentinos
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:24:00 -
[59]
i only ask the members in the corp im in for their api when they need help with ship fits 
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ArmyOfMe
Exotic Dancers Club
Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:24:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Still the best recruitment tool is recomendations.
^^
so signed
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Kailea Shandrasekkar
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:25:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kailea Shandrasekkar on 04/02/2008 20:26:10
Edited by: Kailea Shandrasekkar on 04/02/2008 20:25:19
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
If you are equating 'liberty' with sharing relevant information to others who may count on you then you're a hypocrite if you have a job and by even playing EVE since you had to give them some information to even be posting, playing or collecting a paycheck.
That's a great quote btw and an excellent general sentiment for sure (ironically from a man who had more alts then anyone playing EVE has ever had - Poor Richard and all the rest). But show us you are smarter then being able to quote soundbites from famous Americans (something even Bush can do) by actually expressing how it really applies to this situation.
I didn't wanted to break the perfect conciseness and laconic truth in that utopian phrase. Being a Brazilian, english isn't my main language, so the possibility of ruining such beauty was high. If you insist of compartimentalizing the truth, then so be it.
You press me into two very umpleasant conclusions: Or i'm a hypocrite, or an imbecile. If i give away information, i'm the first; if i pull myself out of society, i'm the latter.
As you stated, i've a real life full of situations where i'm bound to give away personal information. Some of these situations originated from social processes created before i was even born: some are more recent. In any case, and following the democratic way, the idea is to change everything i think that's wrong regarding laws and rules - personal data gathering and such, in this case - by *within* the system, not rabbling outside it. So i'm expected to sacrifice a little now, if i want to suggest changes later. That's real life.
But we're not talking about real life here. This is a game, and i can - and will, because i want to - uphold whatever i think is the higher moral ground. I can follow an utopian ideal here.
Oh, and beware of ad hominem attacks. It doesn't highlights your arguments - rather the opposite.
[Edit:Typos.]
.
The price demanded for the most precious of all things is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value. |
Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:26:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:33:25
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:29:43
Jana Hull: You are massively unaware of the difference between criminal law and our constitutional protections and the necessary suspension of some of those protections we make in our civic lives. I'm happy that you have such a firm grasp of your US constitutional protections (I firmly enjoy and believe in them.) but this is not a US court of law. Last time I checked it was a recreational game owned by a company in Iceland. Additionally, if you examine your day to day civic living you regularly suspend this notion of innocent until proven guilty. Most often in the work place but also in myriad other aspects of your life that have nothing to do with the cops wanting to search your vehicle.
Hell, ever hire a babysitter? Are they considered trustworthy until proven otherwise? Do you hire them without knowing a thing about them and plan to have them "earn your trust"? Or do you ask friends and neighbors for references and ask to speak to their parents first if you don't know them already? Some of you folks are spouting ideology w/o fact checking this against your own day to day decision making and how you make those decisions.
Kailea: I'll no longer attempt to disrupt your reveling in "perfect conciseness and laconic truth". My apologies for failing to understand the sheer genius of it and, more importantly, you before.
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:39:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Janu Hull
The Fourth Amendment is a parallel to the Fifth Amendment in that it establishes the legal concept of innocence until proven guilty. None of us has to defend our innocence through either testimony or burden of physical proof. Our guilt must be attacked and uncovered through investigation and discovery, and no law can compel us to be cooperative in the matter.
Eve corps are not about government, they're about corporation. Who you are working for. If you want to apply real world principles to Eve, you can't look at the Fourth and Fifth Ammendment, but rather the recruitment process of a job. What responsible corporation would not ask for your social security number or whatever to be able to evaluate your character and whether they should hire you for that company? Are they being unconstitutional for asking you for that or similar information when applying to their corp?
Originally by: Janu Hull
Parallel that to EVE, I'm not going to join an organization that sticks me under the microscope and treats me like a criminal just for asking to sign on. My corp employment history is openly available without having to pigeonhole me about, as is my security status. If you want to know more, you're going to have to do your own damned due dilligence when you consider me. If that means I have to spend a few weeks without access to corp hangars until I build trust, fine.
Who says they're treating you like a criminal? If you don't want to join a corporation because of this procedure, that's your own perrogative, but who says they are treating you like a criminal by asking you for this information? Yes, one of its uses is to weed out spies, dumb or otherwise, but I and others listed other reasonable reasons, such as to verify to as good as an extent as available to them that you do not have a vested interest in possible opposing corps (or whatever else, read the rest of the thread). And even if the only reason was to verify that you are not a spy, the company you work for in real life (should have) verified that you did not have a criminal background, or whatever is relavent to their corporation.
P.S. The Fifth Ammendment, I can understand how that can relate to this discussion. Due to the way you replied, I'm willing to bet you made a mistake mentioning the Fourth Ammendment in the first place. However, just in case you actually meant to mention anything regarding the American constitution, I quote this from Wikipedia: "The amendment applies only to governmental actors; it does not guarantee to people the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations. The Bill of Rights only restricts the power of the federal government." So how again does this have any application to Eve corps?
Originally by: Janu Hull
If that limits my options when joining larger alliances, so be it.
That's fine, play the game the way you want to. We're just trying to let people know in this thread why it is a reasonable and common practice for those who actually want to play in respectable alliances.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:33:25
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:29:43
Jana Hull: You are massively unaware of the difference between criminal law and our constitutional protections and the necessary suspension of some of those protections we make in our civic lives. I'm happy that you have such a firm grasp of your US constitutional protections (I firmly enjoy and believe in them.) but this is not a US court of law. Last time I checked it was a recreational game owned by a company in Iceland. Additionally, if you examine your day to day civic living you regularly suspend this notion of innocent until proven guilty. Most often in the work place but also in myriad other aspects of your life that have nothing to do with the cops wanting to search your vehicle.
Actually, they apply everywhere. In terms of EVE, its asking me to prove to you I do not intend to harm the corporation I'm joining, instead of someone demonstrating that I do.
I cannot logically prove a negative, so there's no real way I can demonstrate that I have no intent to harm a corp I apply to.
Besides, what business is it of anyone's what skills I have trained? If I fail to live up to the corp's performance standards through demonstrations of my own gameplay, you can fire me later.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device. |
Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:54:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Actually, they apply everywhere. In terms of EVE, its asking me to prove to you I do not intend to harm the corporation I'm joining, instead of someone demonstrating that I do.
I cannot logically prove a negative, so there's no real way I can demonstrate that I have no intent to harm a corp I apply to.
Besides, what business is it of anyone's what skills I have trained? If I fail to live up to the corp's performance standards through demonstrations of my own gameplay, you can fire me later.
To borrow from the style of the erudite Kailea:
"You can lead a horse to water but some of them just want to drink the koolaid."
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.04 20:59:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Janu Hull
I cannot logically prove a negative, so there's no real way I can demonstrate that I have no intent to harm a corp I apply to.
No, but there's a few small things you can do to show to the best of your abilities that you don't, besides the other reasons mentioned (my favorite being discovering, to the best of our abilities, if you have an alt with a vested interest in a corp that could, in the future, be at odds with ours).
You sound almost like this other guy that actually was in our corp for a short time. He first spent some time explaining how you can't really know that any certain character won't try to screw your corp over at some point, and screen shots and the like can't actually prove it. We agreed and tried to explain how it's the best we can do to protect our corp and its members, yadda yadda. The next day he started talking about how he didn't think corp theft was wrong and on and on, pretty much saying that anyone you play the game with can stab you in the back at any time and they're just playing Eve, and playing it well. Well, of course he's right, about how anyone can screw you over, but we understandably asked him to leave the corp after that conversation, as he'd be bound to screw our corp over in the future.
And you're sitting here telling us that we shouldn't ask that you do all that you reasonably can to show that you are someone we can trust. True, it can't narrow out all possible incursions, but refusing to do so does prove that you are someone we cannot trust. Heck, as Ard said, you would do the exact same type of stuff when hiring a babysitter. Wouldn't you? Do you care about your children AT ALL? Well, my corp cares about its members.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Luxhor
|
Posted - 2008.02.04 21:04:00 -
[67]
This thread is an exquisite example of how people in a game (and probably also in real life) are prepared to have their Freedom violated just to buy themselves trust...
Anyone questioning this should have a serious look into the definition of the word "Freedom" and how Freedom has been raped in the past (and in the present) by very similar practices.
Trust is earned with long-term actions not with an API key...
From Holland with Love |
Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:07:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 21:19:38
LOL. You are free. No one can make you give them your limited API key and they may decide to not let you in their corp. Just as no one can make you give them your social security number and they will most certainly decide not to give you a job. It's all about choices.
Edit: And since Kailea just brought such a smile to my face today: "Freedom is the recognition of necessity." - Engels (with due credit for the idea to Hegel)
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Djinn Phluxx
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:08:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Djinn Phluxx on 04/02/2008 21:10:01
There's no information you can get using that key that can't be covered up/hidden, etc. Anyone intelligent enough to pull off some mid/large scale stuff could probably think of a few alternatives that'd render this 'tool' moot.
Hell, enough people have more than one account these days that you could look at an API key for bubba not realizing he's running 4 other accounts that are gearing up to rock your world in a few months.
The low percentage of idiots an API key will help you find doesn't really justify asking everyone for theirs. It usually won't make a difference. :)
On another note, if you did ask for it, they should all be posted on a corp's web page. Everyone's. Every single person in the corp, so the potential recruit can make sure you guys are the kinda corporation he wants to be involved in. Otherwise he might find his employment opportunities limited when he decides to move on. It's only fair...and since the biggest argument for providing the key is it can't hurt anything, there's no reason not to post the entire corp's info. :)
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Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:13:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Luxhor
This thread is an exquisite example of how people in a game (and probably also in real life) are prepared to have their Freedom violated just to buy themselves trust...
It's impossible to have security in this world without giving up some "freedom". There's a line that becomes dangerous to approach, looking at a Limited API Key, even though it's possible to evade that detection, is not one of them.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
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Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:15:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Janu Hull on 04/02/2008 21:15:22
Originally by: Angel DeMorphis
Heck, as Ard said, you would do the exact same type of stuff when hiring a babysitter. Wouldn't you? Do you care about your children AT ALL? Well, my corp cares about its members.
I would have assumed most of the people in this game aren't children who need to be protected from every conceivable danger, but then I follow alliance politics on CAOD...
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device. |
Angel DeMorphis
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.02.04 21:30:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Janu Hull
I would have assumed most of the people in this game aren't children who need to be protected from every conceivable danger, but then I follow alliance politics on CAOD...
One of the reasons for being in a corp is the limited security it can provide. Maybe not "children who need to be protected from ever conceivable danger", but why shouldn't you protect your corp mates in every way possible? If you don't care about your corp mates, then by all means, don't even try.
My sig taken from this site. [IMAGE REMOVED] |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.02.04 22:08:00 -
[73]
Erm, where's the problem?
Of course Corporations or Alliances can ask for the API key. It's their decision.
And it's the player's choice if he hands out his API key.
Of course it doesn't provide security, but it makes deception more difficult.
Is it too much?
It's purely a matter of taste. Why argue about it?
There's no accounting for taste.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
ElweSingollo
Starlancers
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.05 03:05:00 -
[74]
Edited by: ElweSingollo on 05/02/2008 03:07:48
Originally by: Janu Hull
Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:33:25
Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 04/02/2008 20:29:43
Jana Hull: You are massively unaware of the difference between criminal law and our constitutional protections and the necessary suspension of some of those protections we make in our civic lives. I'm happy that you have such a firm grasp of your US constitutional protections (I firmly enjoy and believe in them.) but this is not a US court of law. Last time I checked it was a recreational game owned by a company in Iceland. Additionally, if you examine your day to day civic living you regularly suspend this notion of innocent until proven guilty. Most often in the work place but also in myriad other aspects of your life that have nothing to do with the cops wanting to search your vehicle.
Actually, they apply everywhere. In terms of EVE, its asking me to prove to you I do not intend to harm the corporation I'm joining, instead of someone demonstrating that I do.
I cannot logically prove a negative, so there's no real way I can demonstrate that I have no intent to harm a corp I apply to.
Besides, what business is it of anyone's what skills I have trained? If I fail to live up to the corp's performance standards through demonstrations of my own gameplay, you can fire me later.
TBH I wouldn't fire you later I wouldn't hire you in the first place that is my choice in the matter just as it is equally your choice NOT to submit to giving an API... doesn't make me a **** for asking for it but equally does not make you last bastion of in game terms a long dead government and constitution.
TBH references to fith amendment etc and that it applies everywhere are trite we play a game that is world wide at best you could argue that it is aplicable to US players but even then at the end of the day it's a game where in game terms the US doesn't exist... were all here rp'ing to an extent. I rp as ceo of a small pvp corp and part of that rp includes having (IMO) to do background checks on applicants and a tool that is provided in the game the api key makes that easier for me to do. As I say no one has to give me there api key but quite equally I don't have to give them a position in my corp.
CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature
In Before I Get M***** Again
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.02.06 21:13:00 -
[75]
second accounts
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Anna Grahm
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.02.06 21:55:00 -
[76]
If any corp or alliance asked for my API keys I would make certain to turn into a spy.
I am NOT an alt! |
Stealing Honest
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:21:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Anna Grahm
If any corp or alliance asked for my API keys I would make certain to turn into a spy.
This qft.
When i inverview corps i listen to what they say when they try to lure me to join them. If a corp asks for my api key while im interviewing them...then they take that chance.
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Maraude Fury
Minmatar
Shadow Of The Light
Scorched Earth Directive
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:27:00 -
[78]
The thing that some forget, is joining a corp in game is OPTIONAL.
Meaning, if you don't want to give your API, you don't have to. It's YOUR choice.
When folks start throwing around the 4th amendment(5th, i don't know, i'm Canadian) and start useing it as a template for their arguement about a game, I laugh.
Everything in this game is optional by you the user.
The Corp I run is a Dicatorship. In real life, that's a horrible way to run a goverment.
In game, it's the best way.
Every person in the corp is here vollentarily. If they don't like a decision I have, they can try to sway me with logical arguements, but if I won't change my mind, they can either follow my decision, or quit the corp.
WHY? They have a choice.
They can CHOOSE to be in a corp that checks char's API's or they can CHOOSE not to. It's their CHOICE.
If you don't agree with the API thing, don't join that corp. But as you've seen, especially in this game, spying is a BIG part of this game.
And to combat that, we take measures that in the real world we'd all object too.
It's all about choice.
Dictator: Scorched Earth Directive Alliance
Lets Burn It All Down
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Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2008.02.07 00:31:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kastar
Edited by: Kastar on 04/02/2008 14:20:52
It's a sad way for people to exert control over someone. (I didn't say you can control someone with the API, watch out smartypants )
Trust does NOT have to go both ways. You do NOT HAVE to trust a new recruit. You simply do not give new people access to valuable stuff unless YOU trust them or they have deserved YOUR trust.
Asking too many questions is usually a sign of overconfidence, egocentrism or just considering yourself way too important. Some aspects of ones accounts people just don't have business with.
In the end it's your choice. If people are too paranoid to let you in without turning you inside out, you better move on to another group that wants to take you in without a threshold.
EDIT: it's a game, people might as well ask you for a pdf copy of your public track record or CV.
You know a corp once booted me for asking, and I am serious here, how to log on to their forums and what their TS server address was. There is such a thing as a little to much paranoia.
Dal Thrax
CEO Multiverse Coporation
Originally by: HEXXX
In all seriousness; I think I made a miscalculation originally. . . We either need to fix this or fix our advertising.
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Grapez
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2008.02.07 01:21:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
I'll give you my API key, in the name of trust, if you give me the API key of everybody I am expected to trust, ie, everybody in your alliance.
See how it doesn't seem to work the other way around. Keep your alliance. It's not worth it.
Quoting truth.
It's not just players that can harm corps. Corps can also do tons of harm to individual players. Blue-on-blue ganks of expensive ships? General abuse of trust? Corps have done these things plenty of times to players.
If they want an API key for recruitment, ask for theirs. Granted, you getting their API keys won't prevent any of the harmful things the corp could do to you, and in reverse, the recruiter getting your API key won't prevent any of the harmful things you could do to the corp.
Originally by: facepalm johnson
If you've nothing to hide you've absolutely no reason not to give.
Obviously, a lot of shady people poasting in this thread.
You posting that with an alt is the height of irony.
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Chelone
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Posted - 2008.02.07 01:57:00 -
[81]
"If you don't like it, don't join!"
Seems valid, but looks at it from only one perspective - the member. I could give an identically-reasoned response if the topic were "Donating my left thumb to corp - valid recruitment tactic??" "If you don't like it, don't cut off your thumb! Simple!"
Taken to the absurd to demonstrate the logical point here - just because the member is not obligated to undergo the corp joining process, does not make that joining process a fair or reasonable one. It is also valid and non-trivial to discuss this from the point of the corp -- "Is it reasonable and/or beneficial for corps to require API keys from new members?" "Don't do it!" does not address that question.
I would side with the people that have brought up the point that is it not foolproof, thus will not deter skilled thieves. Skilled thieves can easily make multiple accounts or have skilled characters to steal with. Is it good for a corp to essentially turn away members, just to deter POOR thieves? I'd say no. Then again, if there's REALLY no better method, maybe they believe they have to do what they can, even if it amounts to a poor excuse for security.
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Plutonian
Plutonian Shore
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Posted - 2008.02.07 02:49:00 -
[82]
If requiring an API was an efficient method for rooting out spies, I probably wouldn't take issue with it. As mentioned, any serious spy can easily circumvent it with multiple accounts. The gains (finding the occasional stupid spy) do not outweigh the drawbacks (showing a lack of trust).
Of course, corp/alliance leaders have a right to run their recruitment process in the way they see fit. Players maintain the right to refuse.
But here's a warning for the pro-API folks:
A previous corp declared they would collect API's from all members... and while I understood the purpose behind it, I couldn't help but feel a bit insulted. I'd made sizable donations to both corp and alliance in the past, and spent the majority of my playtime supporting alliance/corp goals (ops/scout-sentry-guard duty/etc).
I have only twice ever taken an item from a corp hangar: once when I was asked to fit stabs to transport gear to 0.0 (actually, the gear was items needed by the corp, which I'd purchased with my own money), the other time when asked to fit a remote rep for an unannounced op. I have never asked for reimbursement of a ship from anyone.
The API thing wasn't really that major... I disagreed with other alliance stuff (the usual alliance-drama found in any large group... seems to be obligatory for any large 0.0 entity), but the API thing was the deciding factor. I left.
The whole thing soured me on 0.0 alliances. Rather than demand API's, why not shoot a eve-mail over to a player's last CEO? You'd probably get a clearer understanding of who is who.
Just my 2 cents on the issue. 
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Ard UnjiiGo
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.02.07 02:49:00 -
[83]
It's already been pointed out how illogical it is for a corp to not bother screening for the overconfident or ill-prepared griefer/spy because the smarter more resourceful ones will get through anyway. You get all the ones you can and not just let all of them waltz in. Just asking for a limited api sends many wouldbe griefer/spies/thieves that are at the noober end of the scale off packing without wasting any of your time.
Anyone else notice how most of the folks advocating for corps to not ask for APIs appear to be alts btw?
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DirtyHarry
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.07 03:52:00 -
[84]
Full API + 2 Recommendations from current members = winner
Please do not make false statements about forum moderators |
Lindsay Fox
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Posted - 2008.02.07 07:49:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Maraude Fury
The Corp I run is a Dicatorship. In real life, that's a horrible way to run a goverment.
In game, it's the best way.
Actually, history has shown that benevolent dictatorships (including benevolent monarchies) are usually very good ways to run a country. Any other form is guaranteed to become corrupt within a few generations.
Of course, all dictators portray themselves as benevolent, but some have existed and society generally prospers.
Eve is more realistic than people imagine :)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2008.02.07 10:03:00 -
[86]
Major reason for API keys IMO is to allow for automated teamspeak and forum registrations.
Means I don't have to mess around with cleaning up when someone leaves.
I don't think it's too harsh to ask, or make it a condition of entry.
You '4th amendment' citers ... well, clearly you've never gone for a security clearance, have you? It's about the same.
Would I consider it in future?
Maybe. Mostly I recruit people I know, so it's a fairly moot point. But I can fully understand why the more cohesive corps, or the more ... well, shall we say those that people are joining for their reputation, it's in their interests to weed out as many people as possible in the first place.
And they're also going to get people applying 'because of who they are', for the sake of spying.
Yeah, ok. Doesn't stop a _determined_ spy. But really... so what? If you're a determined spy, go create your ultra good cover, stealth agent, and enjoy it.
Otherwise, just opt out of joining that corp if you don't agree with the way they operate, and don't expect the CEO and directors to want to make their lives harder.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.02.07 11:44:00 -
[87]
There is no point whining over corps who do ask limited api. Solution is afterall so simple - just do not join them. Empire is full of 5 man corps willing to recruit anything that moves or glances at their direction without any security procedures.
And as far as 'it does not keep spies away' - well yeh it does not. It makes spies to put actual effort into being spy (by having separate account for that purpose) and gives your guys a bit better feeling after they pod it back to stone age as it's not just some 800k SP alt but actually trained character.
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Victor Valka
Caldari
Archon Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.07 12:04:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Gaven Blands
It is extremely of the utmost importance for a CEO to ask for as much as possible, and then some.
Only in this way can a recruit come to understand that the corp he is joining takes the game way too seriously and that these people are best avoided.
I'd rather have have the recruiter ask these questions. That way I will know that the corporation in question takes the game 'seriously enough'.
I take my hobbies 'seriously enough' and EVE is just another hobby. One that I invest (too) much time in. I do not do it 'for lulz'.
*goes back to his sheets and charts*
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Donrell
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.02.07 13:37:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Janu Hull
Actually, they apply everywhere. In terms of EVE, its asking me to prove to you I do not intend to harm the corporation I'm joining, instead of someone demonstrating that I do.
It might not be asking you to prove you don't intend to do harm but more like proving you are worth it to join that corp? Don't forget you are ASKING to join that corp.
YOU are looking for a corp.
All the corp does it announce (in what ever way) that they might be accepting new members. And you decide if the benefits they provide are enough for you and what they ask in return, which might be daily 4 hour ice mining ops, 1B a month donation or your limited API key. And in return you get 'stuff'(Free ships, free access to pos/labs/bpos, regular pvp ops, etc).
Not good enough for you? Well then you just aren't suited for each other and both of you will move on.
By claiming corps shouldn't ask for someones limited API key you'd be dictating what is right and wrong for an entire community. Now that's what I'd call erosion of freedom.
Originally by: Janu Hull
I cannot logically prove a negative, so there's no real way I can demonstrate that I have no intent to harm a corp I apply to.
Maybe it's goal is finding out if you are willing to trust the corp?
Originally by: Janu Hull
Besides, what business is it of anyone's what skills I have trained? If I fail to live up to the corp's performance standards through demonstrations of my own gameplay, you can fire me later.
Cause some corps would only be looking for certain kinds of players? And sadly we all live in a world where just someones word isn't enough prove anymore.
They ask for carrier pilots and you claim to be one. Well excuse me but I'd want to have prove of that. Be that by giving me your API key(to check skills) or by showing up deep in hostile 0.0 in a carrier. You tell me which one you'd prefer?
Or they might be looking for miners. And if they didn't check all they see of you is a freaking noob ship with 1 T1 miner on it. Not you in the Hulk you said you were capable of flying?
It's trust issue both ways imo. Player trusts the corp with his/her limited API key and corp trust the player with appropriate access to corp assets. With enough freedom for both parties to decide when that trust issue fulfilled.
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Empyre
Domestic Reform
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Posted - 2008.02.07 14:36:00 -
[90]
ask for it, give it. game has too many spies to mess around with possible altered screen shots. it would be absolutely lovely if you could trust people at their word in this game and even better if people couldn't hide behind other characters and accounts (this coming from someone with several accounts as well).
but you can't. and people will go long out of their way to lie their way into your heart and then weasel your way out of your assets and intel for you.
I <3 empire.. usually. |
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SiJira
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Posted - 2008.02.10 20:54:00 -
[91]
Edited by: SiJira on 10/02/2008 20:55:00
if you have a corp or are part of one that works fine with api for recruitment then why are you attacking this guy saying he has no right to attack your recruiting strategy?
if you have nothing to hide then show your api key to your accepted recruits after their screening
whines about whines are lame
anyone that uses api keys to filter spies doesnt even understand that a spy will have a separate account especially if sponsored by your enemy alliance
Trashed sig, Shark was here |
Puscas Marin
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Posted - 2008.02.17 16:05:00 -
[92]
what u use to check API key`s ?
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Saint Lazarus
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.02.17 16:09:00 -
[93]
Dont care if its standard practice or not, have never and will never hand out my API key to a CEO not because I have anything to hide just because I think its going too far
Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.17 16:22:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Saint Lazarus
Dont care if its standard practice or not, have never and will never hand out my API key to a CEO not because I have anything to hide just because I think its going too far
"I got about a hundred pages to read for history on Monday," he said. "How 'bout writing a composition for me, for English? I'll be up the creek if I don't get the goddam thing in by Monday, the reason I ask. How 'bout it?"
It was very ironical. It really was.
"I'm the one flunking out of this goddam place, and you're asking me to write you a goddam composition," I said.
...
"What on?"
"Anything. Anything descriptive. A room. Or a house. Or something you once lived in or something - you know. Just as long as it's descriptive as hell... Just don't do it too good, is all," he said. "That sonuva***** Hartzell thinks you're a hot-shot in English, and he knows you're my roommate. So I mean don't stick all the commas and stuff in the right places.
That's something else that gives me a royal pain. I mean if you're good at writing compositions and somebody starts talking about commas. Stradlater was always doing that. He wanted you to think that the only reason he was lousy at writing compositions was because he stuck all the commas in the wrong place.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Commander 598
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.17 19:19:00 -
[95]
In reply to the "Directors should make their keys available" idea:
HAHAHAHA. Handing over relatively detailed information on your corp's FCs, potential Titan pilots, financial status, etc to potential spies is a truly EXCELLENT idea.
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Karma
Eve University
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Posted - 2008.02.17 19:40:00 -
[96]
can't really say the limited api key would help much in terms of recruitment.. I mean it's not like it will tell you what other characters the recruit has on their (potential) other accounts.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.02.18 16:49:00 -
[97]
Originally by: DirtyHarry
Full API + 2 Recommendations from current members = winner
How is it a winner? The API and background check are just snapshots of that account, nothing preventing that person from turning spy later, stealing, ebaying, etc. etc. I mean, seriously, if greed is the motivation for corp theft, don't you think the danger is when they see the contents of the hangars, and not when they're trying to be on best behavior during the recruitment process?
The API is like gun control laws: it doesn't affect the criminals. The spies will circumvent it and get in your corp anyway. All it does is make it harder for the regular Joe to join your corp. And as far as trust, it doesn't create any.
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:05:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Letouk Mernel
The API is like gun control laws: it doesn't affect the criminals. The spies will circumvent it and get in your corp anyway. All it does is make it harder for the regular Joe to join your corp. And as far as trust, it doesn't create any.
There are many people alive today that statistically wouldn't be in countries with less restrictions on guns that may disagree with you on that.
You're right, a really determined spy can get in.
But here's what they need to do it:
A char that hasn't been bought or sold EULA legally
OR
A char they have trained themselves, but has been kept in an alt corp
AND
Has the required skillpoints/skills
AND
Is on its own account
That's not that easy. You have to WANT to be that spy. 99.9% of spies are not that spy. They are some random new char with no skills, or an alot on an existing account that has been sitting there doing nothing. Not many people (although they do exist), are willing to pay for a char that is only inplace to steal items or info. Unless of course it's their main, in which case they probably will only get to do it once...
Now sure, you're going to get the odd death from someone really determined, but it's not like little susie will have her brains blown out in kindergarten by the 4 year old autistic kid that is legally allowed to carry a gun.
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Hohne
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:11:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Hohne on 18/02/2008 17:14:58
Originally by: Grapez
It's not just players that can harm corps. Corps can also do tons of harm to individual players. Blue-on-blue ganks of expensive ships? General abuse of trust? Corps have done these things plenty of times to players.
The things is, most corps if they abuse their players, will get their name out there and muddied. You can't quite recycle a corp for a new one the way you can a nameless alt. Of course, TBH I don't think newer corps are really in a position to ask for API keys. They must first show they can be trusted. And new players and new corps are still in that 'getting to know you' phase.
There are of course established corps that you just know you can't trust, and ones you know you can. At that point, all that is to be determined is 'who' the player applying is. Since you should know about the corp you are applying to already. (Seriously if they have dozens of active members and have been around for years, they're not likely to vanish just because you join).
As for having to trust a recruit, they get access immediately to
corp chat
alliance chat
corp mail
alliance mail
POS shields set 'for corp' (which is the only way to avoid having to enter the password everytime and possibly ending up losing ships who don't have time to enter it pre-warp etc)
Ship Maint bays set 'for corp' (BTW the only settings here are for corp, or starbase config only, which means either everyone, or everyone you trust enough to not walk away with all your POS's)
Any channels your corp has access to.
Now that's all without you giving that person 'any' specific permissions. That's stuff you can't restrict without also restricting your entire corp pretty much.
If you don't have any POS's and are sitting in a single corp alone, you can be alot more trusting, it's a luxury many of us just can't afford anymore :\
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:22:00 -
[100]
If handing out the limited API key isnt a big deal...
Then why hasnt a singular person in this thread been brave enough to post theirs?
Perhaps there are just some things which are no bodies bussiness except my own.
No CEO needs know the ballance of my wallet.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:26:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 18/02/2008 17:26:35
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that API keys are unusually useful for helping corp members - especially newer ones - plan out their skill training and so on. It gives their CEO (any anyone else given access to it) the ability to plug their character sheet into EFT and EVEMON and allows them to offer advice on training plans and ship setups far easier than before.
I would never accept someone into a corp who wasn't willing to give their API key, simply because I doubt anyone so paranoid would be a useful individual. Conversely, I wouldn't stay in a corp where other weren't willing to pass me theirs, as it really is a useful tool for planning ops and seeing what each other is capable of.
Quote:
If handing out the limited API key isnt a big deal...
Then why hasnt a singular person in this thread been brave enough to post theirs?
Because there is a huge difference between handing it out to individuals you have chosen to trust and whom you assume trust you, and posting it on a public message board!
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:36:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Cedric Diggory
Because there is a huge difference between handing it out to individuals you have chosen to trust and whom you assume trust you, and posting it on a public message board!
Why? what harm can come of it?
If im applying to a corp... the trust isnt there yet, I dont yet trust the CEO, I dont know him...
So there is no difference between posting it here, and posting it to a complete stranger...
You give it out to a killboard... the killboard's SQL gets hacked...
You give it out to a CEO, him and his mates are secretly collecting API's to spy on people and keep one big giantic data info network which they sell off to alliances...
If none of these are concerns...
Then why would posting it here be one?
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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NTRabbit
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:39:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kyoto Luyi
They ask for it to make sure you're not a GHSC alt...
I'm sorry to tell you this, but our GHSC alts have been able to circumvent this primitive security measure even before it was conceived. Our infiltrators come on separate accounts with their own keys, no traceable history, a healthy groomed SP set, as well as other extraneous measures permitting infiltration. The quality of our infiltration is such, that we often establish 'shopped login screens, supporting hotmail/gmail accounts, facebook/myspace pages, and entire fictional families and psychological profiles for our alts.
So get this through your heads: we're smarter than you. Any measure you come up with, we will get around.
------
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:43:00 -
[104]
Originally by: NTRabbit
Originally by: Kyoto Luyi
They ask for it to make sure you're not a GHSC alt...
I'm sorry to tell you this, but our GHSC alts have been able to circumvent this primitive security measure even before it was conceived. Our infiltrators come on separate accounts with their own keys, no traceable history, a healthy groomed SP set, as well as other extraneous measures permitting infiltration. The quality of our infiltration is such, that we often establish 'shopped login screens, supporting hotmail/gmail accounts, facebook/myspace pages, and entire fictional families and psychological profiles for our alts.
So get this through your heads: we're smarter than you. Any measure you come up with, we will get around.
So a users API key provides a CEO no security... just the ability to be nosey
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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Cedric Diggory
Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:48:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 18/02/2008 17:49:20
Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 18/02/2008 17:48:24
Originally by: w0rmy
Why? what harm can come of it?
If im applying to a corp... the trust isnt there yet, I dont yet trust the CEO, I dont know him...
So there is no difference between posting it here, and posting it to a complete stranger...
You give it out to a killboard... the killboard's SQL gets hacked...
You give it out to a CEO, him and his mates are secretly collecting API's to spy on people and keep one big giantic data info network which they sell off to alliances...
If none of these are concerns...
Then why would posting it here be one?
First off, my days of joining 100+ corporations are gone. If I can't get to know every one of my corp mates and speak to them all on vent, play other games with them and so on, I'm simply not interesting in playing eve with them.
Secondly, your API key is a more useful information tool than a killboard. It allows people to see exactly what you are capable of flying/using, and exactly how much you can tank etc. Handing out your key to a public forum is akin to giving it to someone you know is going to use that information against you.
So I'll say again: There's a huge difference between giving that information out on a public forum and sharing that information with corp mates.
I see where you're going, and you are correct: as a security measure, API keys are hopeless (but still better than the old fashioned login screenshot). As I said though, they are infinitely useful for other things.
Quote:
So a users API key provides a CEO no security... just the ability to be nosey
It does, and it provides the CEO with a false sense of security. As I said before, sharing keys is a great thing - it allows you to better collaborate.
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 17:59:00 -
[106]
Edited by: w0rmy on 18/02/2008 17:59:24
Originally by: Cedric Diggory
get to know every one of my corp mates
These are the key words here.
Youve stated you wouldnt give your API to someone you didnt know... now how can you know to trust them untill AFTER you have got to know them.
You know, that point in a relationship when asking for an API key is no longer needed??
This thread is about API key for recruitment, not as a utility, I have never argued the API key has its uses, that is not in debate. Just CEO's requesting API key for recruitment.
As far as im concerned i see it like this:
People you dont know, you dont want having your API key.
People you do know have no need for your API.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:04:00 -
[107]
Originally by: w0rmy
You give it out to a killboard... the killboard's SQL gets hacked...
You give it out to a CEO, him and his mates are secretly collecting API's to spy on people and keep one big giantic data info network which they sell off to alliances...
If none of these are concerns...
The thing is that it can be revoked, rendering it useless really easily, so all you have to do is join and then revoke it and ?
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:16:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Zarin
The thing is that it can be revoked, rendering it useless really easily, so all you have to do is join and then revoke it and ?
So if its no big deal, everyone should post theirs here, ill wake up tomorrow, check out your applications, then you all can revoke it.
Surely its not a big deal when I wake up there will be a thread full of API keys, right?
Or just perhaps the limited API key shows a little more info than needed and this thread will have none.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:21:00 -
[109]
With the amount of meta-gaming going on in this game, Youre stupid to think someone out there isnt looking at making malicious use of the information the limited API key does show.
In a game full of forum hacks, DoS attacks and general crap that has no place in a game, as little information as possible is what I want people knowing about my characters.
Its who I am as a person and pilot that is all they need know about
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:21:00 -
[110]
Originally by: w0rmy
So if its no big deal, everyone should post theirs here, ill wake up tomorrow, check out your applications, then you all can revoke it.
If you don't trust your CEO any more than you trust every single other eve player, then there is something wrong that you can't solve. I'd happily give mine to any corp I apply for. But not to everyone, including some people who I know I don't want to.
It's more the fact that there are a dozen people I know I don't want to give it to, than the 199,999 that I couldn't care less about giving it to. It's easy to make sure when joining a corp that it's not them I'm giving it to, but not very easy on a forum that is totally open to the world.
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:27:00 -
[111]
Originally by: w0rmy
Youre stupid to think someone out there isnt looking at making malicious use of the information the limited API key does show.
Your skills and balance of all 3 chars on the account ? What exactly are they going to do with that?
Unless you're a titan pilot there's not alot to see.
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:28:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Zarin
If you don't trust your CEO any more than you trust every single other eve player, then there is something wrong that you can't solve.
Because untill youre in the corp, he isnt your CEO... He may not even be someone you know, or anyone else in eve knows.
Simply because hes a CEO doesnt automatically make the person trustworthy.
Again this is about using API key as a recruitment tools... you know... recruitment... the bit BEFORE you get to know the corp, its members, its CEO, who the CEO gets to check the API keys, how that person checks them, is the information they find stored, is it past on to anyone, are those people trustwrthy....
Youre all stating that youd not give your API key to a stranger...
But cant seem to grasp the concept that 99% of the time, a person requesting an API key is doing so because they are a stranger!
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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w0rmy
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:29:00 -
[113]
Edited by: w0rmy on 18/02/2008 18:31:11
Originally by: Zarin
Originally by: w0rmy
Youre stupid to think someone out there isnt looking at making malicious use of the information the limited API key does show.
Your skills and balance of all 3 chars on the account ? What exactly are they going to do with that?
Unless you're a titan pilot there's not alot to see.
So share your API key with us?
Oh and, a list of everyones mans and alts (alts used to haul) etc etc...
No, I have no idea how such list could be any use to anyone at all
Originally by: CCP Oveur
I'm very sorry w0rmy, I beg your forgiveness.
Originally by: Dianabolic
I was never sworn to secrecy, w0rmy, sorry to dissappoint you.
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Zarin
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Posted - 2008.02.18 18:40:00 -
[114]
Originally by: w0rmy
Again this is about using API key as a recruitment tools... you know... recruitment... the bit BEFORE you get to know the corp, its members, its CEO, who the CEO gets to check the API keys, how that person checks them, is the information they find stored, is it past on to anyone, are those people trustwrthy....
I don't know how quickly some corps accept people, but the ones I've been to actually spend some time getting to know recruits before they can even fill out an app. On the other hand, they are actually corps that people do trust, and if you don't trust anyone in this game, you are going to have a very boring experience. You don't have to trust everyone, but you have to choose people to trust, sometimes it will burn you most of the time you will build friends. That's just how it goes, you know, in an MMORPG.
The thing is, most players that do have alts and hauling alts, already have a good idea of who they would and wouldn't give their API key to. I know several other players that have mine. Newer players, though without this information, don't really have anything to lose by giving it out, no one wants to know about such players. They won't have alts that do anything, they won't have many SP.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari
Quantum Industries
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.02.18 19:02:00 -
[115]
Requiring API keys is to make thiefs and spies work harder by having separate accounts. Sceanshots have been common practice for a while now, limited key does not give any info a sceenshot wouldn't give.
POS-Tracker 2.1.0 Hosting |
Aero089
Exiled.
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Posted - 2008.02.18 23:27:00 -
[116]
I use API verification because:
1.) I want a quick overview of what a member can or cannot do.
2.) I want to see what alts they have. Screenshots are easily modified whereas the API key leaves no doubt.
I wouldn't care the least about wallets, implants or CAOD poster alts.
As to CEO's not trusting their new recruits, let's turn things around. If my members do not have faith in my organisation, they have no business to be there. If any recruit has something to hide, then it shows that he or she is uncertain about how our ethics relate to theirs, which is another fowl. Especially because we have no ethics
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