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Gradinger Todmacher	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:02:00 - [31] Originally by: Clara Klein Just weighing in on this since I happen to be the only person involved with an autonomous trading program that is willing to speak about it. Market bots most certainly do exist. If you've ever studied computer science at a university level, you'd know that even most sophomore computer science students could throw one together with some difficulty, and a senior could put one together in the space of a few hours. Hell, if you have a grad student working on it they could put one together with a solid learning AI in the space of a day. It's furthermore easy to make it all but impossible to catch you. If your program, for instance, only makes a server request every 30 seconds or so, the volume of traffic heading towards you would be difficult to consider the result of a bot. Because sitting in a station and looking at the market doesn't take much bandwidth either, it's relatively easy to log off one account, spoof an IP address, and log onto another account to keep trading and keep any bot-detection system from flagging your account for over activity. The fact that most GMs use almost the exact same opening lines when they start talking to you to see if you're a bot too allows you to even fool them answering machine style. The biggest issue you'd have in designing a market bot would be designing and experimenting with your trade formula. The real advantage of a market bot is that you don't have to look for just high profit goods. Your main concern is high volume of trade; even a 3% profit margin is more than enough if you can fill your buy and sell orders every 30 minutes (just a purely hypothetical example there). Then you have the problem of people catching on to your bot and screwing with it. Worse still is the threat of your own bot rapidly deflating a market by trading a specific good at progressively smaller margins in rapid succession. The big challenge then isn't even programming it, so much as rigorously testing it over and over. i had my courses at uni and so i'm not surprised that bots do exist - and the big challenge isn't programming but MORALE. FFS im disgusted - although you deserve some respect for talking about it maybe - it's just plain wrong - can't you see it? if CCP would allow automated manipulation of the the game through the interface the game would be dead in a second. the biggest problem i see is ofc the detection of said bots - but generally i hope the majority of players do still see this as what it is - a game.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:05:00 - [32] This is BS. Anyone having/using such software wouldn't be speaking about it or even trying to launch IPO. I would say it is original way to scam.
Gradinger Todmacher	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:11:00 - [33] Originally by: Robacz This is BS. Anyone having/using such software wouldn't be speaking about it or even trying to launch IPO. I would say it is original way to scam. quite possible - but not very clever
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:17:00 - [34] Edited by: Clara Klein on 06/02/2008 12:19:29 Originally by: Robacz This is BS. Anyone having/using such software wouldn't be speaking about it or even trying to launch IPO. I would say it is original way to scam. They would be speaking about it if they were confident that the manner in which they were conducting their business was technically legal thanks to loopholes in the EULA. We went to pains to look for and exploit such loopholes. I guess that's the upside of having as many pre-law and law school students in your corp as computer science students. As for morale, it seems to me that finding ways to bend the rules and push your boundaries is the very heart of the game. I look at Eve and see a game that encourages just this sort of play, as opposed to operating within the boundaries of self-imposed rules.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:30:00 - [35] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 06/02/2008 12:30:37 Originally by: Clara Klein Edited by: Clara Klein on 06/02/2008 12:19:29 Originally by: Robacz This is BS. Anyone having/using such software wouldn't be speaking about it or even trying to launch IPO. I would say it is original way to scam. They would be speaking about it if they were confident that the manner in which they were conducting their business was technically legal thanks to loopholes in the EULA. We went to pains to look for and exploit such loopholes. I guess that's the upside of having as many pre-law and law school students in your corp as computer science students. As for morale, it seems to me that finding ways to bend the rules and push your boundaries is the very heart of the game. I look at Eve and see a game that encourages just this sort of play, as opposed to operating within the boundaries of self-imposed rules. I think your talking crap. There IS no loophole in the EULA. CCP owns your account. And it CLEARLY states that CCP can close your account at any given time. If CCP thinks what you do is wrong, they WILL ban you. Also, im disgusted if you actually have this software you claim. I would by no means be suprised, but your ruining other peoples gameplay. Play by the rules. Bragging about how you "have" a bot, seems just like stroking your e-peen to me. Also, afaik most data from eve is encrypted.
Gradinger Todmacher	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:32:00 - [36] Originally by: Clara Klein Edited by: Clara Klein on 06/02/2008 12:19:29 Originally by: Robacz This is BS. Anyone having/using such software wouldn't be speaking about it or even trying to launch IPO. I would say it is original way to scam. They would be speaking about it if they were confident that the manner in which they were conducting their business was technically legal thanks to loopholes in the EULA. We went to pains to look for and exploit such loopholes. I guess that's the upside of having as many pre-law and law school students in your corp as computer science students. As for morale, it seems to me that finding ways to bend the rules and push your boundaries is the very heart of the game. I look at Eve and see a game that encourages just this sort of play, as opposed to operating within the boundaries of self-imposed rules. bending the rules at the meta-game-level is your game-play? eve may be cruel but... and i guess you know ccp can change the eula if they want to... (i'm not even sure if we have to sign it again)
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Clara Klein As for morale, it seems to me that finding ways to bend the rules and push your boundaries is the very heart of the game. I look at Eve and see a game that encourages just this sort of play, as opposed to operating within the boundaries of self-imposed rules. This is the argument of scammers, spawn-campers and general griefers since the dawn of online gaming. Just because it's technically allowed by the game does not make it morally acceptable. In the same way that if I sleep with another woman and cheat on my fiancee it wouldn't be against the law. Technically I've done nothing wrong but it is morally wrong. Sure, CCP encourage questionable morals by allowing corp thefts, scamming, etc. WITHIN the context of the game and within the game rules this is still wrong but it's an understandable position, these methods are available to anyone. What you are doing is outside of the game, it's somthing that you and your budies are able to do because of your real life knowledge and consequently, it's not available to everyone. That's the difference here and that's why I suspect CCP will not allow it. (Quite appart from the fact that the EULA very clearly disallows this kind of program). -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:37:00 - [38] Oh please. He won't be banned because scams are perfectly legit.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Clara Klein They would be speaking about it if they were confident that the manner in which they were conducting their business was technically legal thanks to loopholes in the EULA. We went to pains to look for and exploit such loopholes. I guess that's the upside of having as many pre-law and law school students in your corp as computer science students. Heh, the problem is that EULA basically says: we can ban you whenever we want and for whatever we want. It has nothing to do with law. I have absolutely no doubt that no GM would ever allow you to use software you described. They are no grey areas of loopholes, they will ban you when you do anything they don't like, it is simple as that. And automated market software (which I doubt you have) is clearly something they won't like.
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:40:00 - [40] Edited by: Clara Klein on 06/02/2008 12:42:47 Originally by: LaVista Vista If CCP thinks what you do is wrong, they WILL ban you. Yup, that's why we talked to CCP first and why I've put in a forum report and an in-game petition in space of the last 4 hours to reconfirm the original ruling. Quote: Also, afaik most data from eve is encrypted. Poorly encrypted. You can't encrypt your packets too heavily otherwise encrypting and decrypting those packets would require too much processing power on both the client and server sides. The method we use gathers all of its information directly from the client though, using essentially the same methods that spammers use to beat CAPTCHA systems.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.02.06 12:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Clara Klein Originally by: LaVista Vista If CCP thinks what you do is wrong, they WILL ban you. Yup, that's why we talked to CCP first and why I've put in a forum report and an in-game petition in space of the last 4 hours to reconfirm the original ruling. Unless you have a GM or Kieron/Wrangler post here, your words are useless. If CCP does allow such programs, they are dumb, and it will kill the market. If CCP does allow it, a drama scream will sound soon. And i HONESTLY doubt CCP will EVER allow such progra,.
Clara Klein Caldari Clan ASMS	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:07:00 - [42] Whether or not they allow such programs, they will exist. We were using our bot for a solid week before CCP even responded to our petitions concerning its legality. I doubt they even have anything designed to detect such bots. Even with these bots around (and they are) the market hasn't been killed as you predict, simply because you can't really use a formula to kill a market. If anything, a bot introduces formulaic stability to markets. Seems to me that so far the biggest opponents of this idea are just those with the most to lose (i.e. standard trading corps, old school spreadsheet data entry players, big money traders in general). Hell, some of the people calling these bots out are themselves in breach of the EULA in just as grey a sense.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:10:00 - [43] Originally by: Clara Klein Hell, some of the people calling these bots out are themselves in breach of the EULA in just as grey a sense. That's an interesting claim. Just what the hell are you babbling about?
Gradinger Todmacher	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:14:00 - [44] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Clara Klein Originally by: LaVista Vista If CCP thinks what you do is wrong, they WILL ban you. Yup, that's why we talked to CCP first and why I've put in a forum report and an in-game petition in space of the last 4 hours to reconfirm the original ruling. Unless you have a GM or Kieron/Wrangler post here, your words are useless. If CCP does allow such programs, they are dumb, and it will kill the market. If CCP does allow it, a drama scream will sound soon. And i HONESTLY doubt CCP will EVER allow such progra,. it is quite an odd situation. i can't imagine that any gm would describe such a program as "grey area" so let's assume for a moment this is a scam.. he won't be banned because without a program there's no reason - so he may get back to the forums showing everybody he's not banned and may catch some investors? some greedy idiots may throw some money his way? would it be even allowed to pretend to violate the eula to scam ppl? lol
Gradinger Todmacher	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:17:00 - [45] Originally by: Clara Klein Whether or not they allow such programs, they will exist. We were using our bot for a solid week before CCP even responded to our petitions concerning its legality. I doubt they even have anything designed to detect such bots. Even with these bots around (and they are) the market hasn't been killed as you predict, simply because you can't really use a formula to kill a market. If anything, a bot introduces formulaic stability to markets. Seems to me that so far the biggest opponents of this idea are just those with the most to lose (i.e. standard trading corps, old school spreadsheet data entry players, big money traders in general). Hell, some of the people calling these bots out are themselves in breach of the EULA in just as grey a sense. it's 2 different things if such programs exist or if ccp officially allows them. 2nd would result in everybody having the program or klling the game or both.
Trishan Green Men Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:17:00 - [46] As much as I hate to do so, I'm gonna agree with Clara's arguments. - Market metagaming sucks. But its already there in the rest of eve in the form of alts, logoffskis, logon traps, etc. - I cannot find a way in which this abomination would violate the eula (yes, ccp can tell them to stop but that wouldn't be out of a violation). - I've read an user guide on a macro mining. Worked by sending clicks to the screen, and thus it would be legal according to the current eula. There's no accelerated acquisition of items or anything like that, nor modification of the UI, nor reverse engineer, or anything else. - I know that GMs have said that it's ok if whatever you are doing doesn't actually respond to in game "events", the same way its ok to use one of those fancy keyboards or mouses (unfortunately). While, yes, it'd be better if this actually considered whats happening in the client, it can work pretty decently with just timings. Just like macro mining. :( - I have no idea if there are XXX XXXXXXXrs for eve in the same way there were for XX or XX or XXXXXXXX, but it'd be a safe assumption that someone out there has made one so it wont matter much if traffic is encrypted or RLE compressed or whatever. My hope is that eve is a kind of a niche game, that would give anyone wtfbbq powers over a lot of stuff, and thus wouldn't be very widespread but maybe clara actually knows of a macro mining tool that fiddles with packets and I don't. Although I suspect farmers are simpler to maintain and easier to handle. All I can say, Clara, is that your yahoo account name sounds very fitting, and that if even if this is an attempt at revamping the market I'm trully disgusted.
Robacz Essence Trade Essence Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Trishan - I've read an user guide on a macro mining. Worked by sending clicks to the screen, and thus it would be legal according to the current eula. There's no accelerated acquisition of items or anything like that, nor modification of the UI, nor reverse engineer, or anything else. Macro mining bots are not allowed and their users are being banned.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:42:00 - [48] Hi all, I have reported the market bot user, although he maintains he is in the EULA i have stated to CCP that i feel it is very unfair if this kind of program has been allowed by GM's because nobody should be able to gain advantage over other players by using automated sodftware packages. If this guys 'Bot@ is within the EULA I have also asked for CCP to make a Dev Blog on how to set one up or better still include one in the client so all players can benefit. I ask for everyone else to report him too. Hopefully we can get rid of all Players who beleive they can use software to gain advantage. A fool and his money are soon parted Better to die with honor than live with shame Diligence is the mother of good fortune Fools rush in where angels fear to tread Trust is the mother of deceit
Ambo 2nd Outcasters	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:42:00 - [49] Originally by: Trishan - I cannot find a way in which this abomination would violate the eula (yes, ccp can tell them to stop but that wouldn't be out of a violation). Originally by: EULA You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. I'm no legal expert but it seems pretty clear to me. -------------------------------------- Trader? Investor? Just want to track your finances? Check out EMMA

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:46:00 - [50] Just so there is no ambiguity regarding the use of macros and bots: They are completely forbidden and against the EULA. There is simply no discussion on this issue. If you suspect a player or players of using an illegal system you should create a petition nad let a GM investigate. Navigator, Community Representative EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang

Lucas Avignon Avignon Associates Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.06 13:56:00 - [51] Interesting topic, I imagine what's happening now is CCP is going to investigate. Make no mistake about it, this is cheating and would destroy Eve and as such I think CCP will take it very seriously. Sharing accounts is also cheating, I petitioned this guy for changing orders everyday 23/7, he doesn't log on anymore nor does it happen
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:07:00 - [52] Quote: Personally, I doubt they're much in use, and anything that looks like a bot is just a dedicated trader. Many people call 'bot!' when it is indeed just a dedicated trader, but there are things you can do to discern what's a veteran trader and what is bot behavior. Precise regularity in timing of updates, for example. If you are always getting your order trumped 1s after it's placed, well, that's probably not a veteran trader managing a hundred orders simultaneously. Also, look for if they always mindlessly raise or lower. If you put up a buy order for a couple items at a very high price and they jump over you with their order of hundreds, that's not a move an intelligent trader would make very often. if you raise so high that you are just below the lowest sell orders, and they jump over you, that's also not a move an intelligent trader would make very often.
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Ulstan Also, look for if they always mindlessly raise or lower. If you put up a buy order for a couple items at a very high price and they jump over you with their order of hundreds, that's not a move an intelligent trader would make very often. if you raise so high that you are just below the lowest sell orders, and they jump over you, that's also not a move an intelligent trader would make very often. and all of those are easily programmable rules, zzz. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:24:00 - [54] I had a long post, but EVE's forums mostly suck, so it got et. Quote: I will tell you this much though, I highly doubt market bots are a myth. It took us all of about 12 hours to think of this after we all started playing, and with one computer science grad student and two comp sci undergrads in the clan it didn't take too long to figure out how to design the program. In fact, I'd say the biggest challenge wasn't the programming so much as trying to conceive of a way to loophole our way around the various provisions of the EULA. I wouldn't have spent as much time as I have on AutoTrader if I weren't quite certain of its legality. If nothing else, hopefully that thread (now locked) will educate people on what bots can and cannot do, and convince the 'no bots are possible!' crowd otherwise. Also, I'm not going to spend any time reviling Clara Klein, but suffice it to say that an automated trading agent that acts halfway intelligently is the greatest fear of a lot of traders.
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:41:00 - [55] Originally by: Ulstan an automated trading agent that acts halfway intelligently is the greatest fear of a lot of traders. Jita is full of human trading agents that act halfway intelligently, so I don't see what's so scarry. Especially when Clara Ponzi's "bot" told him to haul battleships for profit or buy fermionic condensate at 42,000 ISK per unit.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:42:00 - [56] automated
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2008.02.06 15:53:00 - [57] predictable
Myrdyr	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:00:00 - [58] Did nobody else notice their PDF says Jita and Rens are only 15 jumps apart...? Which, technically, is true...if you're going to go through lowsec. Please post constructively. ~Saint
Benvie Benvie Enterprises	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:09:00 - [59] Originally by: Ulstan Many people call 'bot!' when it is indeed just a dedicated trader, but there are things you can do to discern what's a veteran trader and what is bot behavior. Precise regularity in timing of updates, for example. If you are always getting your order trumped 1s after it's placed, well, that's probably not a veteran trader managing a hundred orders simultaneously. You realize a bot isn't omniscient right? It has to gather the data from the client, which in turn has to get the info from the server. And the client is notoriously laggy about updating, especially if there's a lot of orders being filled. At the absolute fastest it takes about 5 seconds to download the orders from one item. Giving ample pause time to account for potential lag I doubt you'd see a market bot updating an order faster than once per 15 seconds. I'm guessing anyone using a bot would actually use the bot to their advantage and use lots of orders. If you're talking say 100 orders you're looking at almost a half hour cycle time. The 1s update is a myth. A bot will look like a human in its update times. A dedicated, no-life human, but a human nonetheless. The way to discern a bot from a human would more likely come from the amount of time spent online (and even this can be hard to distinguish from the no-lifers) and from pricing behavior. Pricing behavior is your best bet, as demonstrated above.
Midas Man Caldari Dzark Asylum	Posted - 2008.02.06 16:35:00 - [60] Edited by: Midas Man on 06/02/2008 16:36:43 Just to point out the obvious because alot of 'bot' threads miss it. If your trading in somewhere as busy as Jita then:- Trader A - updates thier order to become the cheapest. Trader B - who is trading in this item checks the price. Oh no someone undercut me best modify my order to become cheapest but don't want to lose profit so 0.01ISK sounds like a good ammount. Trader C - also trading in said item - Oh no i'm not cheapest anymore, but wait they are only selling for 0.02 isk less maybe i should reduce my order by 0.03ISK don't want to lose profit Trader 4....... I'm sure i don't need to go on. To clarify. There is very rarely just 1 person trading in a certain item and in Jita you could be trading against lots of people so it makes sence that you will be undercut vquite alot. I have been undercut by 0.01 for 2 hours while constantly updating my own order in Jita i could have thought bot but then it stoped the other player logged off but 30 mins later i was undercut again. could have been a new trader, a trader i was already undercutting or the trader mentioned before may have had a break who knows. While there may be bots out there just because you undercut by 0.01 doesn't mean its a bot. If there is bots they are unfair and need to be reported when spotted but only CCP are in a postion to do this accurately. edited speeling mistakes but probably missed more A fool and his money are soon parted Better to die with honor than live with shame Diligence is the mother of good fortune Fools rush in where angels fear to tread Trust is the mother of deceit

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