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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Lilith Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:46:00 -
[1]
I usually put up buy orders for various pirate implants in Jita on the side to regular contract trading, recently though I've noticed that one buyer will beat me by 1 ISK within 30 seconds to 10 minutes, no matter what time of day/night it is (I play at random times due to being a student). I doubt it's an actual person because it always updates, no matter what time it is.
Do things such as market bots exist in EVE that play the 0.1 ISK games for you? Doesn't seem like they would fit under the EULA as well.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:51:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Lilith Dawn
I doubt it's an actual person because it always updates, no matter what time it is.
Doubts, smouts. Competition in Jita is, simply, that damned brutal.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean. |
Dohkar
Amarr
Statler and Waldorf LLC
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Competition in Jita is, simply, that damned brutal.
This is the case. Don't expect to trade much there unless you're paying attention (or applying some anti-competitive practices).
To answer your other question - yes, market bots would be considered a no-no under the EULA. |
Saint Lazarus
DROW Org
Brotherhood of the Spider
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Posted - 2008.02.05 14:54:00 -
[4]
You'd be amazed how dedicated some traders are (me included) but it is possible that there are bots, just dont assume everyone is that keeps an eye on their market 23/7.
and you wanna test it, can always try drop your price by a huge amount to see if his does to, if it does, can buy it for a nice profit :D
(works well with alot of things but guess its pretty risky do with pirate implants)
Please resize signature to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
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Lilith Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:15:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Lilith Dawn
I doubt it's an actual person because it always updates, no matter what time it is.
Doubts, smouts. Competition in Jita is, simply, that damned brutal.
I've been trading in Jita for a very long time and I know what to expect there. First time experiencing someone beating my order always within 10 minutes whether it be 8:00AM, 1:00PM, 11:00PM, 4:00AM. Always, 100% of the time within 10 minutes and 1 ISK for the past week. It's also in a low-volume high price implant market with relatively few other buyers, so it's not some super-hot must be on top item (volume is 1-2 a day), only a few serious buy orders with the rest being 'woopsy' ones.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.02.05 15:15:00 -
[6]
Having traded in Jita for quite a while now, im yet to experience anything that suggests bots at all.
Yes, during the weekends, the frequency of updates are EXTREMELY high. But its not bots.
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Billinda Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.05 16:55:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Billinda Gates on 05/02/2008 16:59:46
I have experience the same thing in Jita and i am 99% sure that it is a market bot. On certain items you will always be undercut by 1 ISK exactly. Any time of the day, (ive tried 6am,9am,11am,3pm,6pm,10pm,12pm) all on one day and you still get undercut by exactly 1 ISK within 10-20 minutes.
Now while this may be a really dedicated trader, if you changed your buy order range to 3 jumps and put the same prices as the "Bots" price. This will put your order ontop of the bots price and effectively give you the sale if someone sells. Now any trader would know this and modify there order to beat yours but in the case of those specific items the person (or bot) who usually undercuts by 1 ISK doesnÆt. Ive been able to have my buy order stay on top for up to 3-4 hours using this method. But as soon as other trader undercuts me, they are undercut in 10-20 mins by 1 ISK, by the order that was inactive for those 3-4 hours while I was effectively ontop.
This also applies to sell orders of the specific items too. Evemail me if you want one item as proof but I wont reveal the markets as using the above method you can beat the "bot".
Edit: forgot to add, all the items are high profit, low volume items where you must be ontop 100% of the time to make profit. Exactly what Lilith said (high end implants and other markets).
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Trade Tricks
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Posted - 2008.02.05 16:59:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Trade Tricks on 05/02/2008 17:02:07
Edited by: Trade Tricks on 05/02/2008 16:59:42
 just lol...
anyways - you heard of timezones and other countries? recently realised that eve went up by some thousand players? your 'rare' pirate implant (lol) ... maybe it has just kinda high demand, even if its not much traded? imagine more and more pilots in vagas, commands, capitals ... well - as said before... lol 
well -- and _if_ anyone would have managed to implement a bot to bid on that shiny imps ... you really really believe you get a satisfying answer here???? holy ****
well i hope theres no such bot... but if ... anyone wonders?  sad humans ...
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2008.02.05 17:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Trade Tricks
well -- and _if_ anyone would have managed to implement a bot to bid on that shiny imps ... you really really believe you get a satisfying answer here???? holy ****
You would be surprised how likely it actually is.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.05 18:20:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Trade Tricks
anyways - you heard of timezones and other countries? recently realised that eve went up by some thousand players? your 'rare' pirate implant (lol) ... maybe it has just kinda high demand, even if its not much traded? imagine more and more pilots in vagas, commands, capitals ... well - as said before... lol
Translation please.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
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Kallisto Black
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Posted - 2008.02.05 18:57:00 -
[11]
I love how the 'market bot' paranoia keeps going around.
You do realize there's a lot of active traders like myself that will watch the market screen on certain active items matching decreases by 1 ISK (others might use .01). Jita is the most active hub and actively camped by traders, if you aren't seeing your price changes matched on popular items within a few seconds I'd be concerned. Given that I've had my price matched within a second, and have done the same constantly to others, the results you're seeing are pretty understandable. |
Kaeti
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:20:00 -
[12]
I have sometimes wondered if there are bots too because I have often times had the competitor's price already at the lower ammount after my screen refresh from my order update and it is always exactly 1 isk or 0.01 isk from what my new price is. If I try and vary it with the partial ISK droping from say 5148.78 to 5147.66, how are they able to predict, and update fast enough to have 5146.66 by the time my screen refreshes?
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
The Nexus Foundation
Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:48:00 -
[13]
Threads about this pop up every few weeks.
To be honest it wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was one and I believe there is, in fact. I doubt they're heavily circulated though, as always, who wants the competition using their own devices?
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Ciuby
Gallente
Romania Production Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.05 19:59:00 -
[14]
when i said that market play is hard a guy told me that it's not "rocket science"...
but then again...
__________
Manufacturing whatever you need... |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools
Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:38:00 -
[15]
Oh, ffs, petition it, with as many details as you can provide.
If it's really that blatant, it should be obvious in the logs (one dude logged in 24/7, refreshing market screen every 20 seconds is kind of a giveaway). And unlike us, CCP can tell if the bottom seller/high buyer is the same guy around the clock.
As far as I've seen, there are no bots, just people like me with nothing better to do all day than leave a window open on a second monitor and play the 0.01 isk game.
MP
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Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compressionexpansion! WTF? |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.05 20:46:00 -
[16]
Quote:
I have sometimes wondered if there are bots too because I have often times had the competitor's price already at the lower ammount after my screen refresh from my order update and it is always exactly 1 isk or 0.01 isk from what my new price is.
Ok, look, people keep saying 'exactly 1 isk or 0.01 isk' as though that means anything. LOTS of people udpate by exactly 0.01 isk. Why should they ever update for more when they don't need to? 0.01 isk is like the default update amount.
Other people update by 1 isk becuase they like to use the tenths and hundredths digits as a 'tag' to allow them to easily see where their order falls in the market place. Like they might buy an item for 600,000,000.33. If you raise to .34 they may go to 600,000,001.33.
The only thing that tells you it may be a bot is the frequency of the updating and the intelligence of it. For example, if it's a buy order, and you jack it up to ridiculous levels, does it follow you? If it's a sell order and you undercut to ridiculous levcels, does it follow you?
If you are getting constantly .01'ed by just one order, sell one item to that order to find out who it is. Then add them to your address book. Watch for them to go offline and then profit.
That said, it's not impossible for a market bot to exist in EVE but it would be a lot harder than a mining bot.
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Prokonsul Piotrus
Minmatar
Astral Light of Nature
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Posted - 2008.02.05 23:51:00 -
[17]
Another possibility that comes to mind is a shared account, with several players overseeing the prices 24/7. OOC, would this be an EULA violation?
--
One day, we will return to the planets... please, CCP? :)
EVE-Wiki - share your knowledge in one place. |
Lui Kai
Phoenix Aeronautics
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Posted - 2008.02.06 02:21:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Prokonsul Piotrus
Another possibility that comes to mind is a shared account, with several players overseeing the prices 24/7. OOC, would this be an EULA violation?
Yes.
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
The Nexus Foundation
Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.02.06 03:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lui Kai
Originally by: Prokonsul Piotrus
Another possibility that comes to mind is a shared account, with several players overseeing the prices 24/7. OOC, would this be an EULA violation?
Yes.
This.
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Danari
Amarr
Viper Squad
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.06 04:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Saint Lazarus
and you wanna test it, can always try drop your price by a huge amount to see if his does to, if it does, can buy it for a nice profit :D
(works well with alot
That might be a fun operation, posting one unit at .02 over buy price and cleaning them out. (.01 over buy fails because of who gets the purchase).
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Lilith Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.06 05:43:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lilith Dawn on 06/02/2008 05:44:12
Update:
I decided to play around with the idea that it really was a market bot and decided to test this out. I raised my buy order to a few thousand ISK under the lowest selling order (implant in question had buy orders @ 92m, sell @ 145m, so I put a buy @ 144,999,990.00). Within a few minutes the other party had matched my buy order to the exact number with 1 ISK higher. I dropped my buy order back down to the previous amount but the suspected market bot did not follow suite and the order was filled within a few hours.
I am now certain (I was messing around with it earlier as well, it would always match the exact same number +1 ISK, including random decimal places) that it was a market bot. I didn't have the implant to sell to that particular order to find out who it was, but I think I've seen it in some other areas as well that I normally watch.
Also, if I move a buy order to 1 ISK under a sell order, will a matching buy order that equals the amount force-buy the lowest sell item if it is in the same station as the range on the order?
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Ciuby
Gallente
Romania Production Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.06 06:38:00 -
[22]
yes, you can try that
but you could as well loose the isk if someone decides to fill your order :)
__________
Manufacturing whatever you need... |
Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.06 06:45:00 -
[23]
well now you know how to force him to buy your stuff at just a few pennies under the current sell price...
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Trishan
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.02.06 07:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Trishan on 06/02/2008 07:17:55
Originally by: Lilith Dawn
Edited by: Lilith Dawn on 06/02/2008 05:44:12
Update:
I decided to play around with the idea that it really was a market bot and decided to test this out. I raised my buy order to a few thousand ISK under the lowest selling order (implant in question had buy orders @ 92m, sell @ 145m, so I put a buy @ 144,999,990.00). Within a few minutes the other party had matched my buy order to the exact number with 1 ISK higher. I dropped my buy order back down to the previous amount but the suspected market bot did not follow suite and the order was filled within a few hours.
I am now certain (I was messing around with it earlier as well, it would always match the exact same number +1 ISK, including random decimal places) that it was a market bot. I
I've seen those too, each reselling in a different (but related) market. I made one of them forfeit millions of margin just by continuously adjusting a order of a thousand isks (very tiny one so no one in their mind would think about wanting to make a statement about). It keeps on matching you until you get to a certain point.
Unfortunately I have no way of finding out whether this is a real bot as it looks like or a manned group effort and I know what CCP is going to say of either. I've spent a fair deal of time in the market and the behaviour smelled very fishy. And out of the sudden they all disappeared.
Eidt: (Not in jita)
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Hersheff
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Posted - 2008.02.06 07:24:00 -
[25]
a good strategy to apply, if you think your opponent is a bot, is to use multiple buy orders on the same item.
Or increase the buy ammout, and sell him your stuff at a profit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you really want something in this life, you have to work for it. Now, quiet! The're about to announce the lottery numbers... |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2008.02.06 08:00:00 -
[26]
Definitely one of the more intelligent market bot threads ...
Personally, I doubt they're much in use, and anything that looks like a bot is just a dedicated trader. Knowing some of the extreme personalities and extremely wealthy people I do, I know the kind of incredible efforts that will be put into an activity. The pure scope on which some people own accounts, mass mission, mass mine, mass manufacture/trade ... anything, can be overwhelming to me, and would seem inhuman to someone who isn't used to a high/intense level of effort on an activity.
This all goes back to complaints made about miners and missioners ISK farming. Even if there are five ravens/hulks/etc moving around making money with near perfect coordination, as long as someone responds and/or there is no shadiness in CCPs logs, it's just a legit person being a little overkill compared to your average player. Sadly at least with mining and missioning there is a real problem, be it human or program, with ISK farming leading to selling, so I can only hope the market stays complicated enough to prevent this from happening in our playground.
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Billinda Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.06 09:14:00 -
[27]
After a afternoon of testing and modifying orders i am now 100% certain that there is a market bot and i will post my reasons and evidence below, starting with the weakest evidence first.
1) This specific buyorder will always (100%) of the time undercut/overbid you by exactly 1 ISK. Now if you where a dedicated daytrader camping with 100+ orders, would you go and rewrite all your prices everytime so that it is 1ISK above/below the next highest buyorder? This would take a huge amount of time as you would have to rewrite out prices and include decimal ISK amounts and there is absolutely no reason to do it.
2) If you equal the buyorder in question and have a larger buy range the order will not be modified. As soon as another cluless trader overbids you and the bots buyorder, they will be overbid buy 1 ISK within 20 minutes.
3) After extensive testing i found out with all bot sellorders if you undercut by over 5m (even 5,000,000.01) the bot will not update. This is on all items the bot sells from 800m items too 100m items. A real trader would modify there order to undercut for the 800m items and in some cases the 100m items but not the bot.
4) Lastly using undercuts of 5m over a period of 2 hours i was able to drive the bots sellorder to the lowest buyorder on the market and filled it :D. (causing at least 70m in losses to the person/bot).
In retrospect i should have bought the item to re-sell AND find out what account the bot was on. When i tried it agian some other daytrader undercut me before the bot did causing the bot to stop undercuting. If you are in Jita right now cheak out Crystal Epsilon. The bots sellorder is the secound lowest (the first being the other trader). and Yes i have alot of spare time <3 Chinese new year
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Ciuby
Gallente
Romania Production Inc.
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Posted - 2008.02.06 10:18:00 -
[28]
interesting... :)
__________
Manufacturing whatever you need... |
Trishan
Green Men Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:35:00 -
[29]
This AutoTrader looks like exactly what I spotted. Speechless.
An extract from the pdf:
It does this in a remarkably simple manner. Each time an ASMS member intends to log off, they instead log onto
an alt placed in one of several systems in Empire space and initialize AutoTrader. The program begins to then comb through the market, comparing highest purchase price of goods to the lowest sale price, and relaying this data to other membersÆ machines by way of an in-game chat channel.
Bulk buy orders are then placed at slightly above the highest purchase price for those items that are identified as having the highest predictable profit margin, with the intention of quickly reselling those goods at slightly below the lowest sale price. Although buying and selling in such an automated manner isnÆt entirely efficient, it remains ultimately profitable.
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Clara Klein
Caldari
Clan ASMS
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Posted - 2008.02.06 11:52:00 -
[30]
Just weighing in on this since I happen to be the only person involved with an autonomous trading program that is willing to speak about it.
Market bots most certainly do exist. If you've ever studied computer science at a university level, you'd know that even most sophomore computer science students could throw one together with some difficulty, and a senior could put one together in the space of a few hours. Hell, if you have a grad student working on it they could put one together with a solid learning AI in the space of a day.
It's furthermore easy to make it all but impossible to catch you. If your program, for instance, only makes a server request every 30 seconds or so, the volume of traffic heading towards you would be difficult to consider the result of a bot. Because sitting in a station and looking at the market doesn't take much bandwidth either, it's relatively easy to log off one account, spoof an IP address, and log onto another account to keep trading and keep any bot-detection system from flagging your account for over activity. The fact that most GMs use almost the exact same opening lines when they start talking to you to see if you're a bot too allows you to even fool them answering machine style.
The biggest issue you'd have in designing a market bot would be designing and experimenting with your trade formula. The real advantage of a market bot is that you don't have to look for just high profit goods. Your main concern is high volume of trade; even a 3% profit margin is more than enough if you can fill your buy and sell orders every 30 minutes (just a purely hypothetical example there). Then you have the problem of people catching on to your bot and screwing with it. Worse still is the threat of your own bot rapidly deflating a market by trading a specific good at progressively smaller margins in rapid succession. The big challenge then isn't even programming it, so much as rigorously testing it over and over.
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