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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:07:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: CCP kieron
Claims that "A GM said bots are ok." are to be looked upon with suspicion.
Can this thread be locked as further discussion is moot.
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean.
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari
The Nexus Foundation
Endless Horizon
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:26:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP kieron
The use of bots, including the sort of automated trading program mentioned in this thread, are in violation of the EULA. Discovery of the use of such programs or bots will result in actions being taken against the user's account, up to and including permanent game bans.
Claims that "A GM said bots are ok." are to be looked upon with suspicion.
This is all that needs to be said, for those of you who think you're clever by trying to interpret the EULA to your advantage.
As Shar said, I think this thread can now be locked.
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Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:47:00 -
[93]
So bankrupt it. A sophisticated user can beat a bot any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else.
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The Internets
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Posted - 2008.02.07 19:59:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Brisco Smiley
So bankrupt it. A sophisticated user can beat a bot any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Good against remotes is one thing. Good against the living, that's something else.
Unless they code in limits to prevent such things from occuring, which should be a very simple thing to do if you can code a market bot.
There is no way a human can compete with a 23/7 market bot that beats your price within a few moments of your changing of it. Unlike macro-miners, you're completely shut out of the markets they operate in.
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Myrdyr
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:01:00 -
[95]
Originally by: The Internets
There is no way a human can compete with a 23/7 market bot that beats your price within a few moments of your changing of it. Unlike macro-miners, you're completely shut out of the markets they operate in.
Completely untrue. All you have to do is dedicate more market orders to the item than the bot does.
Please post constructively. ~Saint |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 20:53:00 -
[96]
Quote:
Completely untrue. All you have to do is dedicate more market orders to the item than the bot does.
Yep. While it wouldn't be hard programmatically to put in ceilings for buy orders and floors for sell orders and thus create the 'optimal bot', it would require a lot of work and research to arrive at these numbers in the first place, and they'd constantly be changing, of course.
As long as you can trounce any bot by running 4 buy orders to his 1, things should be ok.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.07 21:03:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Ulstan
As long as you can trounce any bot by running 4 buy orders to his 1, things should be ok.
If anyone honestly believe that this is OK then they are insane.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.07 21:06:00 -
[98]
I don't mean OK in the sense of morally acceptable or even good for the game, I mean OK as in "if you dedicate constant time and more buy orders to the struggle, can you beat a market bot while you are online"
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.07 23:38:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Vested Interest on 07/02/2008 23:38:44
One thing to consider:
If CCP has the client programmed properly, a standard bot/macro can't receive price data any faster than the players. The bot still has to update the screen every 30 seconds or so, spot the price difference, and place the order.
IMO if your order is getting undercut within seconds each time, it's cause there are multiple competitors with multiple orders open. Some of the other behavior described in the thread is suspect though, like forcing the "bot" to undercut right into the current Buy price, at a loss. Of course, you never really know what the other guy paid for his stuff...
I think what these other guys cooked up in that thread was something that listened to the data-stream, pulling the market data before it even reaches the client, which made market scraping much more efficient than the standard "export to csv" method we employ currently.
Aren't some of these sorts of tools legal in WoW? Not saying they should be legal here but I know there are a bunch of neat WoW tools that put down overlays and stuff like that.
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Confuzer
Polaris Project
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.02.08 00:00:00 -
[100]
Quote:
I think what these other guys cooked up in that thread was something that listened to the data-stream, pulling the market data before it even reaches the client, which made market scraping much more efficient than the standard "export to csv" method we employ currently.
Naah I think they actually took the device content -> your screen, did an AI based parsing of text (like breaking CAPTCHA as he said) and then used this data to analyse the current item. This means you need to have the market window visible. I don't think they hacked in the stream (like they did with Second Life) cus on the fly brute forcing the coded stream (if it's coded) would still take to long I think. If they did hack it though, this would be much more efficient but not really needed, because they only do it every 30 seconds. My guess is it can be detected by a client if the one clicking is a human or a bot by analysing the mouse movements, but that is also quickly *****ed if you put some efford in it.
But the answer of the GM's is clear. I hope it stays this way. Eve is no fun with bots.
-----------------
Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. It's not a thing to be waited for - it is a thing to be achieved. |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 00:04:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Vested Interest
Aren't some of these sorts of tools legal in WoW? Not saying they should be legal here but I know there are a bunch of neat WoW tools that put down overlays and stuff like that.
WOW's API was designed to specifically allow people to do all sorts of nifty things. CCP could learn a LOT from WOW's interface. No game I've ever played has held a candle to WOW's interface. You could change it in almost every way. Everything was removable/re-sizable/etc.
You were basically encouraged to do whatever you wanted with the API and if Blizzard thought an addon went to far they would change the API so it wouldn't work anymore.
But you were not allowed to bot in WOW. Some addons auto-ran people from one place to another and they were disabled. Some auto-mined and they were removed as well. Only a very few, mind numbing tasks were allowed to be automated (making bandages, etc). But everyone knew where the line was.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Estate
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Posted - 2008.02.08 03:21:00 -
[102]
Given the negative history with GM/ISD posts in this section of the forums, I'm very glad to see some quick feedback on such an important matter being raised here. Thanks CCP =)
More please. =P
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2008.02.08 03:42:00 -
[103]
Indeed, one of my co-workers was an avid modder for WoW, and he had many mods which would monitor and present information from around the WoW world, particularly from the auction houses, and all these were allowed by WoW, but never was there anything which automatically adjusted his auction bids for him or similar, those were still manual processes, and if my non-WoW background of limited knowledge serves right, automated adjustments were not allowed by mods.
Improve Market Competition! |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:14:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
and if my non-WoW background of limited knowledge serves right, automated adjustments were not allowed by mods.
Indeed. You'd get a perma-ban if you were caught... and Blizzard had many ways to catch you. They banned tens of thousands of people if I recall correctly. They could do that because they had millions of subscribers and a few hackers would ruin the game for the real customers who played fairly.
If you were a farmer you'd get banned, if you sold accounts you'd be banned, etc. Sure they didn't get everyone but they sure did get a lot. Unfortunately CCP doesn't understand that removing bots would actually help their bottom line more than hurt it. Otherwise they'd go after farmers with more zeal.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:34:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Shadarle
Unfortunately CCP doesn't understand that removing bots would actually help their bottom line more than hurt it. Otherwise they'd go after farmers with more zeal.
This is actually a very interesting point, and one not lost on CCP I am sure.
I would say that they do understand this factor very well, or at least, they think they understand it and act accordingly. I work in an industry where paying subscribers if the lifeline of a business, and this topic comes up a lot - and there's lots of ways to interpret it. Usually you find that the more subscribers you have paying the bills, the tougher you can be on them. It's a curve.
CCP only has a fraction of the number of paying sub's that WoW has - and the pain point for them is different because of it. When Eve hits the "right" number of paying subscrivers, that's when they can afford to go after bots and macro'ers.
Eve Corp Web Design | Eve Online Addicts |
Astorothe
Aperture Science Industries
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Posted - 2008.02.08 06:39:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Shadarle
WOW's API was designed to specifically allow people to do all sorts of nifty things. CCP could learn a LOT from WOW's interface. No game I've ever played has held a candle to WOW's interface. You could change it in almost every way. Everything was removable/re-sizable/etc.
This is absolutely true - although I personally do not enjoy playing WoW, I was very impressed with the way at which you could mod the GUI. A friend of mine who is WoW mad and has a level 60 character in evert profession has made all sorts of cool adjustments to his. Another editable GUI that comes to mind was Neverwinter Night 2.
CCP could really learn from these guys.
What's even scarier is that I'm basically agreeing with 2 of Shad's post in one thread. 
Eve Corp Web Design | Eve Online Addicts |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.02.08 16:10:00 -
[107]
WoW's UI was amazing in terms of flexibility. You could redesign the entire UI basically from the ground up. Which was good, because WoW's default UI really kinda sucked at most complicated things :p
Quote:
IMO if your order is getting undercut within seconds each time, it's cause there are multiple competitors with multiple orders open.
It's not hard to tell if you're getting outbid by 3-4 different people (or buy orders) or if it's just one other guy updating the same order each time.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Astorothe
What's even scarier is that I'm basically agreeing with 2 of Shad's post in one thread.
This just proves that you can be right twice in the same thread sometimes! 
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
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Posted - 2008.02.08 17:33:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Ulstan
WoW's UI was amazing in terms of flexibility. You could redesign the entire UI basically from the ground up. Which was good, because WoW's default UI really kinda sucked at most complicated things :p
There are many interesting things about WoW's client API. The WoW API functions allowed retrieval and display of information, but not initiation of action. The eve web API seems to be built according to similar principles. Also, over time, features of the most popular UI mods were rolled into the default client interface. The mod community provided Blizzard with not only a grueling testbed for new UI features, but also actual code to implement them.
Cheers,
Brisco Smiley
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2008.02.08 23:16:00 -
[110]
In the future, I'll be able to macro my posts to Market Discussions.
Just think of all the time I'll save! I could probably even turn off my market bot and make trades myself.
Oh, future, truly you are a glorious vision to strive for. 
Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar
Where we hate people through words. |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2008.02.09 05:53:00 -
[111]
Its kind of amusing when people discuss something they know next to nothing about.
It's better then Quafe!
Off-topic. Please don't point out semantic errors of the moderators - Mitnal |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2008.02.09 06:01:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Its kind of amusing when people discuss something they know next to nothing about.
Which in itself is an ironic statement since you cannot possibly know who any of these people are or what they actually know. For all you know one of the posters in this thread could be the foremost expert on artificial intelligence and mmorpg scripting. You should take your own advice is my point.
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2008.02.09 06:35:00 -
[113]
... This whole thread is out of order.
Welcome to the dark side old friend. .Shar
Where we hate people through words. |
Tatsue Niko
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2008.02.09 14:49:00 -
[114]
Easy solution, try putting a order above market for a small amount of item, see if the "bot" puts 1 isk above, if so, just buy all sell orders and kaching, profit.
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Lilith Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.09 20:11:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Lilith Dawn on 09/02/2008 20:10:57
Originally by: Myrdyr
Completely untrue. All you have to do is dedicate more market orders to the item than the bot does.
That may work for low-value high volume items, but for things that sell 1-2 a day (5% implants, pirate implants, etc), I can never be on top for longer than a few minutes against a market bot.
And in some areas it is very clear to me that it is always the same person updating their buy order against mine, as there usually are only 3-6 serious buyers for the expensive implants and none of them ever move at the pace of the market bot; the top order always has a time remaining date a few minutes longer than the second highest buy order.
Regarding the one I found, I petitioned it on a single implant. A GM was quick to respond and said appropriate action would be taken; the buy orders in that particular implants (and across others that I was watching as well) were removed.
About 10-12 hours later, they were all back, and updating with the exact same frequency as before.
The only consolidation is that all of it's orders are limited to station range (Jita 4/4) while I set mine as regional. I'm going to try and fiddle around with their buy orders to see how high I can push them, but as it stands now it seems that my buy orders will never be on top. A human cannot compete with such a thing.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.02.09 22:05:00 -
[116]
The discussion regarding bots is silly. As an example, I spent about 30 minutes finally offloading some of my ferrogel. Someone named Tricky finally bought me out (Thanks) after I had successfully spent my time beating out my number #1 update competitor.
I simply had an egg timer set for 4 minutes and the modify order ui open and ready for the next scheduled update. I'd click, check to see if everything is on schedule, and my order would be updated 15 - 45 seconds after my dance partner's update.
I am now 500M more liquid and it only cost me 250M to buy the product. I'm happy even though I'll have to admit that it was damned undignified doing it -0.01 isk at a time. However I don't control the rules of the game, I just play to win. When I win, though my goals might be completely different then my competitors, I'm happy and I leave the field.
I don't start whine threads like this. Actually I send eve-mails to people who buy 1 item. Without fail I never have to pay a cspa charge for some reason. And for them... I almost never log off so they can keep checking and checking and wondering and wondering if I'm going to be updating again ... I will but they'll not know until they buy 1 unit again.
I like playing mind games with people. And appearing to be a bot, when I'm active, is a lot of fun. Until I win and I move on... ...
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean.
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Lilith Dawn
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Posted - 2008.02.10 03:52:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
The discussion regarding bots is silly. As an example, I spent about 30 minutes finally offloading some of my ferrogel. Someone named Tricky finally bought me out (Thanks) after I had successfully spent my time beating out my number #1 update competitor.
I simply had an egg timer set for 4 minutes and the modify order ui open and ready for the next scheduled update. I'd click, check to see if everything is on schedule, and my order would be updated 15 - 45 seconds after my dance partner's update.
I am now 500M more liquid and it only cost me 250M to buy the product. I'm happy even though I'll have to admit that it was damned undignified doing it -0.01 isk at a time. However I don't control the rules of the game, I just play to win. When I win, though my goals might be completely different then my competitors, I'm happy and I leave the field.
I don't start whine threads like this. Actually I send eve-mails to people who buy 1 item. Without fail I never have to pay a cspa charge for some reason. And for them... I almost never log off so they can keep checking and checking and wondering and wondering if I'm going to be updating again ... I will but they'll not know until they buy 1 unit again.
I like playing mind games with people. And appearing to be a bot, when I'm active, is a lot of fun. Until I win and I move on... ...
Whine thread? I am fully aware of how often to expect traders to update their prices, and especially in super-low volume areas such as high-end implants. The ones I have found (and had confirmation from a GM of there being an exploit) are impossible to compete against, no matter how dedicated you are.
Or are you saying that a dedicated trader should be playing 23/7, 7 days a week, updating their orders for every single item every 5-8 minutes and be satisfied with only being on top for a handful of minutes every hour?
What you are describing isn't mind games. What you are describing isn't a game of any sort. What you are describing is insanity. I apologize if this seems like an attack upon you, but my grounds for creating this thread are justified.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.02.10 04:12:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Lilith Dawn
I apologize if this seems like an attack upon you, but my grounds for creating this thread are justified.
No apology needed. One statement of your rationally followed the other and was clearly without any malice or spite. If the end of it is some sort of offensive statement at me... perhaps I should either review what I said or help you understand the flaw of what you said. My summarizing this as a whine thread is more an overall flavor of this thread not your initial posting. So it is I who should apologize. Of course I disagree with your method, bringing it here for discussion resolves little, if anything at all. We the players are in a position where we can only suppose something is going on and then only if we exercise some small investigative steps. The results we accumulate are purely circumstantial, they have little or no weight. The only thing we can do is report it to a GM, via petition, and sit back and wonder if they even bother or if there is any way for them to know... at all. Many old timers here will tell you that I'm often ready to fight any fight that needs fighting. The problem with this one is; we don't know if there really is someone to fight; we can't do the fighting ourselves; we don't know if anyone else is bothering to fight; and finally we won't ever know if the fight has any success at any point or time. The whole affair is a riddle wrapped in an enigma boxed in a... ...
To Shar -verb:
1 - To say what you mean.
2 - To say what it means.
3 - To say something mean.
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Vested Interest
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Posted - 2008.02.10 05:51:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Lilith Dawn
Regarding the one I found, I petitioned it on a single implant. A GM was quick to respond and said appropriate action would be taken; the buy orders in that particular implants (and across others that I was watching as well) were removed.
About 10-12 hours later, they were all back, and updating with the exact same frequency as before.
I've found a new way to eliminate my competition
/me petitions that darn 0.01'er-he couldn't possibly be updating his orders faster than me.
wtf
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Billinda Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.10 06:49:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Billinda Gates on 10/02/2008 06:53:32
Edited by: Billinda Gates on 10/02/2008 06:50:27
Quote:
I've found a new way to eliminate my competition
/me petitions that darn 0.01'er-he couldn't possibly be updating his orders faster than me.
wtf
Im sorry but did you even read the previous posts in this thread??. Its painfully obvious if you tried trading in the highend implant market that there is a bot running. I even know now what character is running the bot and have petitioned it. Right now im making 30m ISK every 2 day's just by abusing the bots parameters. All you have to do is buy 2 of the items. If the bot has a buyorder up, drive up the buyorder to the nearest sellorder. Sell your item too it. The next day the bot will have a sellorder 1ISK lower than the nearest sellorder. I then use the second item to drive down the bots sellorder to the nearest buyorder and just buy it back.
This is only possible because i am an oceanic player and can do this during non-peak items. It takes a good 2 hours to modify the price up/down 30m and really is not practical in the long run. Would any sane trader buy an item for 330m and then sell it for 300m the next day? and keep doing this? (ive done this twice already). Evemail me and i will send you the charaters name if you want to investigate.
Edit: Typo's
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