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are lasers really as bad as everyone says?

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delta phi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:42:00 - [1] i ..er.."found" a set of skill books for lasers small,mad,large and the beam specializations therof as well.should i train them or sell them? shoot first, shoot second, shoot some more.shoot anyone asking stupid f***ing questions.
Riho Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:43:00 - [2] no.. lasers are very good.. no matter what the trolls here say. if you jsut found the skills and arent acctually training to use the guns.... sell them ---------------------------------- This is Me
Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:45:00 - [3] Nope. Nothing wrong with lasers. Wouldn't train em just because you have the skillbooks though. It's a long-term commitment to specialize in lasers.
delta phi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:51:00 - [4] ok i was told u need good gunnery skills to use lasers so i thinking with 1.2 mill in gunnery adding a new weapon to my list may help arnt lasers good vs rogue drones? cause rails kinda suck vs them. shoot first, shoot second, shoot some more.shoot anyone asking stupid f***ing questions.
ThaMa Gebir Gallente Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:58:00 - [5] Originally by: delta phi ok i was told u need good gunnery skills to use lasers so i thinking with 1.2 mill in gunnery adding a new weapon to my list may help arnt lasers good vs rogue drones? cause rails kinda suck vs them. Try blasters, yes they have short range, but boy do they track well. ---------------------------- Confirmed heaviest member of RDEX........ Hah, no more hijacks here!!!!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.08 06:58:00 - [6] You know, you also need to train the proper ships to use those lasers with any kind of effect other than zeroing yor cap... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
delta phi Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.08 07:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Leandro Salazar You know, you also need to train the proper ships to use those lasers with any kind of effect other than zeroing yor cap... ahh ok now thats a good point. fine u talked me into it ill sell them thanx. ..orr make an amarr alt shoot first, shoot second, shoot some more.shoot anyone asking stupid f***ing questions.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.08 07:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Leandro Salazar You know, you also need to train the proper ships to use those lasers with any kind of effect other than zeroing yor cap... There is this thread, where they found out the torax was better with lasers than the omen... Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Anika Mobius	Posted - 2008.02.08 07:41:00 - [9] Edited by: Anika Mobius on 08/02/2008 07:41:59 True story: Scanned a complex in a 0.5 system. Attempted it in my Thorax and was quickly down to just drones as I had used up all 6000 rounds of ammo I'd brought with me. Scanned the "same" complex a few weeks later in the same system in an Arbitrator and completed the damn thing because Lasers do not run out of ammo. Arbitrators pretty much suck, but the longevity of Lasers means a lot in a war of attrition. Yes, I was stupid and trained Caldari, Galente, and Amarr Cruisers. We were all noobs in the beginning.
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.08 09:18:00 - [10] Originally by: Anika Mobius Edited by: Anika Mobius on 08/02/2008 07:41:59 True story: Scanned a complex in a 0.5 system. Attempted it in my Thorax and was quickly down to just drones as I had used up all 6000 rounds of ammo I'd brought with me. Scanned the "same" complex a few weeks later in the same system in an Arbitrator and completed the damn thing because Lasers do not run out of ammo. Arbitrators pretty much suck, but the longevity of Lasers means a lot in a war of attrition. Yes, I was stupid and trained Caldari, Galente, and Amarr Cruisers. We were all noobs in the beginning. First: the arby is one of the best amarr cruisers, it does not "suck" secondly: it is a DRONE BOAT, it has 2 turrets, and NO bonus to lasers I hardly think the lasers saved you there, it might have been the myrad of drones that arby carries, hell, if you put lasers on your torax it whould far outperfom that arby when it comes to turret usage i will give you the benefit of doubt and say you meant the maller or something, you know; a gun boat even then i would guess it was your lack of skills at the time that enabled you to use such a stupid amount of ammo when piloting that torax Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
marie claude Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.08 09:36:00 - [11] i can fly any t 1 ship (corp hi jacker lol) never trained lasers tho.i just may for the fun of it. trinity = EPIC FAIL
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.02.08 11:19:00 - [12] Medium lasers are all in all pretty sucky. Problem lies more in the ships though. Only good t1 platform for medium guns is the harbinger. Then with t2 there is the zealot and abso. Thats pretty much it when talking about med sized lasers. Maller, Proph and Omen all have either very low dps and/or fitting and sustainability problems with medium guns. Arbi, Curse, Pilgrim, Sac, Damnation all use other primary weapon systems. For small ships crusader with beams is nice. On the battleship scale lasers are pretty awesome. Pulses on geddon and abaddon are great and the new apoc will be a pretty good sniping platform. However as other have said you need to train specific ships to use lasers due to the much needed cap use bonus. Without a damage bonus its mostly not very rewarding to fit lasers either. So for you its probably best to stick with your current turrets and wait with cross training until you have good support skills.
Azirapheal Amarr The Bastards	Posted - 2008.02.08 11:35:00 - [13] i found small lasers to be too crap, the damage they do is almost completely negated against a high tank. medium t1 lasers suffer imhho the same problem, med t2 large t1/2 lasers pump out enough damage fast enough with good gunnery skills for it to be very very worth it
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.08 13:44:00 - [14] Is it just me or is the sader just not good? sure it is fast, but you have to sacrifice to much to fit big guns, if you down grade you are sooo outdone by a crow, nevermind the cap issues. I find malediction alot easier to fly and flexible to. Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.08 13:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Dristra Is it just me or is the sader just not good? sure it is fast, but you have to sacrifice to much to fit big guns, if you down grade you are sooo outdone by a crow, nevermind the cap issues. I find malediction alot easier to fly and flexible to. The sader isnt really good. Nothing to have really if you can fly a malediction. I mean what can the sader do that the malediction cant? The only way sader might get intresting is if they cut laser cap usage down so you can fit for speed + gank without running our of cap after 30 secs. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.02.08 14:14:00 - [16] I'd say that they aren't nearly as bad as everyone says. Lasers are the ultimate "middle of the road" weapon system. They are medium ranged, medium damage weapon systems that are VERY flexible in adjustment of their optimal range (switching crystals takes next to no time as compared to switching ammo for any other weapon system). They do have extraordinarly high cap usage, and there are quite a few ships that can run their cap dry on guns alone however, which is a problem you will have to contend with. Usuage of lasers unfortunately means the majority of your damage is EM with thermal as a secondary, and while thermal is a good all purpose damage type the EM damage type is somewhat lacking in usefulness when delivered against your average armor tank (though apparently EM armor resist is dropping in the near future)
Neuromandis	Posted - 2008.02.08 15:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Derek Sigres Lasers are the ultimate "middle of the road" weapon system. They are medium ranged, medium damage weapon systems ... I agree with all the rest that you say. But I wouldn't exactly call lasers, "middle damage". "Middle range", well kind of, in a "beam and pulse average" kind of way... I would put it thus: Pulses are rather low damage (for a short range gun) but high optimal range (for a short range gun). Beams are high damage (extremely high damage if you speak of tachyons) but rather low range (medium range if you speak of tachyons) optimal range for a long range gun. --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Mariana Benn	Posted - 2008.02.08 15:51:00 - [18] Lasers bite at first but with good training they are quite effective. Only thing is you have to adapt your fighting style to take advantage of their mid range dominance. It's not easy I'm still workin on it. It means finding ways to keep the right distance from targets. Unfortunately the targets don't always cooperate. As fas as pve. I've spent a lot of time training drones up and it's helped quite a bit. I can focus my guns on the bs/bc target and the drones easily take care of the rest. For pvp (I'm fairly new to this) I try to stay at least 8-10k from gallente/minmatar targets to neutralize their very nasty short/range dmg. If I can manage that then I have the advantage with conflag crystals. Since I have good drones skills I can use my smalls to neutralize the mid/large size drones Gallente's use. Recently I've been testing my new absolution in the test server against other command ships. I usually win if I can keep the optimum range and it's always a good fight.
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.08 17:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dristra Is it just me or is the sader just not good? sure it is fast, but you have to sacrifice to much to fit big guns, if you down grade you are sooo outdone by a crow, nevermind the cap issues. I find malediction a lot easier to fly and flexible to. The sader isn't really good. Nothing to have really if you can fly a malediction. I mean what can the sader do that the malediction cant? The only way sader might get interesting is if they cut laser cap usage down so you can fit for speed + gank without running our of cap after 30 secs. Lyria, you're down on the Crusader? I know you prefer Malediction (have watched the vids), and I noted your Mal setup in another thread. I'm still training towards ceptors myself, but have already begun researching loadouts and experimenting with my own - and I really like both these boats. What's wrong with Beamsader? I've heard lots of good things about the following, which is cap-stable and can orbit at 20 KMs optimal at over 5000 m/s: 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Sorry to derail the thread a bit, just wanted to ask. And to answer the OP, yes, lasers suck for cap use and are normally only best fit on an Amarr boat. A rare exception is the Thorax, which outperforms all other Amarr cruisers when fitted for lasers. -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.09 02:10:00 - [20] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:11:26 Originally by: Meridius Dex Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Dristra Is it just me or is the sader just not good? sure it is fast, but you have to sacrifice to much to fit big guns, if you down grade you are sooo outdone by a crow, nevermind the cap issues. I find malediction a lot easier to fly and flexible to. The sader isn't really good. Nothing to have really if you can fly a malediction. I mean what can the sader do that the malediction cant? The only way sader might get interesting is if they cut laser cap usage down so you can fit for speed + gank without running our of cap after 30 secs. Lyria, you're down on the Crusader? I know you prefer Malediction (have watched the vids), and I noted your Mal setup in another thread. I'm still training towards ceptors myself, but have already begun researching loadouts and experimenting with my own - and I really like both these boats. What's wrong with Beamsader? I've heard lots of good things about the following, which is cap-stable and can orbit at 20 KMs optimal at over 5000 m/s: 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Sorry to derail the thread a bit, just wanted to ask. And to answer the OP, yes, lasers suck for cap use and are normally only best fit on an Amarr boat. A rare exception is the Thorax, which outperforms all other Amarr cruisers when fitted for lasers. I know it might personal preference, but I havent found a good role for the sader where it really outshines the malediction in. Id say the problem with the sader is the cap. If they would lighten up the cap use on lasers the sader might be pretty good. Right now it simply doesnt last long enough with mwd+guns running if youre fit for speed and/or tank. Also with aurora youll miss anything that smaller then a bc. They also need to friggin buff everyone long range ammo tracking. 0.25 tracking it is just stupid. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.09 04:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Meridius Dex on 09/02/2008 04:34:13 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:11:26 Originally by: Meridius Dex Lyria, you're down on the Crusader? I know you prefer Malediction (have watched the vids), and I noted your Mal setup in another thread. I'm still training towards ceptors myself, but have already begun researching loadouts and experimenting with my own - and I really like both these boats. What's wrong with Beamsader? I've heard lots of good things about the following, which is cap-stable and can orbit at 20 KMs optimal at over 5000 m/s: 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Sorry to derail the thread a bit, just wanted to ask. And to answer the OP, yes, lasers suck for cap use and are normally only best fit on an Amarr boat. A rare exception is the Thorax, which outperforms all other Amarr cruisers when fitted for lasers. I know it might personal preference, but I haven't found a good role for the sader where it really outshines the malediction in. Id say the problem with the sader is the cap. If they would lighten up the cap use on lasers the sader might be pretty good. Right now it simply doesn't last long enough with mwd+guns running if youre fit for speed and/or tank. Also with aurora you'll miss anything that smaller then a bc. They also need to friggin buff everyone long range ammo tracking. 0.25 tracking it is just stupid. I had neglected the tracking issue with Aurora, that's true. But what of fitting beams with Microwave? 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Modulated Light Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Microwave S The tracking is .20 (as opposed to .05 with the Aurora) and it's optimal is pushed out to 18KMs, where it can orbit at 5500 meters/sec. And it's 100% cap stable. I know I have to get used to flying Interceptors, but the sub-webber fighting range of the rocket-armed Malediction has me antsy... -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting
Nahzgul Houses Of The Holy	Posted - 2008.02.09 05:17:00 - [22] Some one said Pulses are lower damage then beams and it's not quite accurate. Mega pulse II out damage Tachyon II's. The Tachys have a high damage mod but a much slower rate of fire.
Oscar Clay	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:33:00 - [23] It's not so much that lasers are bad per se... It's just that they use such a huge amount of cap that laser boats have to sacrifice one of their bonuses to "10% less laser capacitor use per level" just to be able to use them at all. So while the other three races are flying around with one dps bonus and one tanking bonus, or one dps bonus and one tracking bonus, or two dps bonuses, most Amarr ships are effectively stuck with 1 bonus and "can use lasers". Raven pilots don't have to put up with one 5% ROF bonus and one bonus that's just "can use torpedoes". Vexor pilots don't have to put up with one 10% drone bonus and one bonus that's just "can use drones". Cyclone pilots don't have to put up with one 7.5% shield boost bonus and one bonus that's just "can use projectiles". Amarr pilots do. Or they fly an Abaddon, and cap out 90 seconds into any kind of serious fight. But, you know, it's just another one of those issues that's had players howling for a fix since the very dawn of Eve. At least beam lasers have pretty good DPS for a long-ranged gun.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:43:00 - [24] lasers are great! its just when going up against ships that field a tank that is 3 EANMII and a DC II, they do somewhat crappy damage compared to other weapon platforms. aka em 82.9, therm 72.2, kin 67.9, and ex 65.8 (for an armageddon all skills5) although a zealot can hit slower nanoships (sorry havent done the exact math just some playing on the test server) with heavy pulse with scorch. i had another zealot orbiting at 20ish km and he was nanoed (doing 3km/s or so), i had some tank, his armor melted. similar result with an ishtar. it had some large shield extenders and i could hit it fine. for npcing well, they are good against blood/sansha/drones, guristas they dont seem to do too bad, but say dire guristas are very em resistant. ect ect.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.09 07:44:00 - [25] oh and a full rack of tachyon beam lasers requires 2 reactor control II mods, and a cap mod or two and cap rigs to be cap stable (with a mwd fit on the apoc)
Dristra Amarr Shadows of the Dead The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.09 11:31:00 - [26] Originally by: Meridius Dex Edited by: Meridius Dex on 09/02/2008 04:34:13 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 09/02/2008 02:11:26 Originally by: Meridius Dex Lyria, you're down on the Crusader? I know you prefer Malediction (have watched the vids), and I noted your Mal setup in another thread. I'm still training towards ceptors myself, but have already begun researching loadouts and experimenting with my own - and I really like both these boats. What's wrong with Beamsader? I've heard lots of good things about the following, which is cap-stable and can orbit at 20 KMs optimal at over 5000 m/s: 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Light Beam Laser II, Aurora S Sorry to derail the thread a bit, just wanted to ask. And to answer the OP, yes, lasers suck for cap use and are normally only best fit on an Amarr boat. A rare exception is the Thorax, which outperforms all other Amarr cruisers when fitted for lasers. I know it might personal preference, but I haven't found a good role for the sader where it really outshines the malediction in. Id say the problem with the sader is the cap. If they would lighten up the cap use on lasers the sader might be pretty good. Right now it simply doesn't last long enough with mwd+guns running if youre fit for speed and/or tank. Also with aurora you'll miss anything that smaller then a bc. They also need to friggin buff everyone long range ammo tracking. 0.25 tracking it is just stupid. I had neglected the tracking issue with Aurora, that's true. But what of fitting beams with Microwave? 2x Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II 4x Dual Modulated Light Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Microwave S The tracking is .20 (as opposed to .05 with the Aurora) and it's optimal is pushed out to 18KMs, where it can orbit at 5500 meters/sec. And it's 100% cap stable. I know I have to get used to flying Interceptors, but the sub-webber fighting range of the rocket-armed Malediction has me antsy... If you are going to kill a bs or bc, use tech 2 rockets, its only 3 launchers so the speed penalty is not that bad, against other ceptors your high effective hp and rocket power should prevail Guns on ceptors where a pain when i used it A: argh tracking, gotta go slower B: omg, cap use and fitting You get a few more dps out of the guns, but at the price of much hassle Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions! I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.02.09 12:25:00 - [27] Lasers are terrible, do not use them under any circumstances. Post under every alt you have in AMARR ARE UNDERPOWERED threads.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.09 12:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Dristra If you are going to kill a bs or bc, use tech 2 rockets, its only 3 launchers so the speed penalty is not that bad, against other ceptors your high effective hp and rocket power should prevail Guns on ceptors where a pain when i used it A: argh tracking, gotta go slower B: omg, cap use and fitting You get a few more dps out of the guns, but at the price of much hassle Aye, this is why malediction can pretty much fill any role sader could fill but can do alot more aswell. Sader really needs less cap use and more gank to fill a seperate roll better then malediction atm. -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Lt Angus Caldari the united Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.09 12:39:00 - [29] Med pulse lasers are the best of the medium guns, mostly because they do their full damage outside 5k while AC and blasters start to suffer, most of the time you arn't humping the other ship to get the full dps, especially in fights bigger than 1v1. Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers
Meridius Dex Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.13 15:52:00 - [30] Edited by: Meridius Dex on 13/02/2008 15:55:03 OK, I missed the replies to this thread after not checking it over the weekend. (Hey CCP, can we get better forums on EVE-O, with email notifications and such?) But I wanted to check in real quick and offer one last Crusader setup. I agree with the vet ceptor pilots being down on gun tracking at high speeds, but is there any tracking number wherein lasers can still hit at speed? I offer the following for your critical analysis: Overdrive Injector System II 2x Capacitor Power Relay II Heat Sink II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II J5 Prototype Warp Inhibitor I 4x Gatling Modulated Energy Beam I, Amarr Navy Multifrequency S This model optimals at 3KMs, going 4666 m/s with 100% cap stability. It also does 124pts of DPS, far higher than any other ceptor loadout I've tried. Better still, Gatling lasers provide the best tracking of any laser I fitted, with this model boasting a .48 tracking number. I'm still a firm believer that the Malediction is the better of the two (and that the sader desperately needs some cap), but can this "ganksader" possibly have a role? -- Meridius Dex -- Amarr = EVE on Hard setting

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