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Undocumented boost to optimal/tracking rigs

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Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:51:00 - [1] Prior to trinity, these were largely pointless, as they shared a common stack with tracking computers/enhancers. Now, however, stacking penalties (for tracking & optimal range) are calculated separately for modules and rigs. For example, if you fit 1 tracking computer and 1 optimal range rig, you get the full effect of each. If you fit two or more of each, the first of each will operate at 100% effect, the 2nd of each at 87%, the third of each at 58%, and so on (following the usual sequence). This means that by fitting optimal range rigs, it's possible to create snipers that make T2 long-range ammo look quite irrelevant, using higher damage T1 ammo with these new extreme range bonuses. I've updated NB's spreadsheet (again) so that people can play around with this: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/beta28cTrinity.zip Here's an example to get people started: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/KzIg/snipers_with_rigs.GIF I've set it up with tracking enhancer, but tracking computers with optimal scripts would work equally well. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.10 00:53:00 - [2] hmm this is news to me. Intresting. hmm... -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:02:00 - [3] This has been the case since the rigs were introduced afaik. I used to use a Navy Apoc for missions running, fit with a t2 optimal rig. The flat 20% increase regardless of any tracking mods fit was really handy. It has it's uses in sniping fleets too...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising The Dawn of Darkness	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Asania Dre This has been the case since the rigs were introduced afaik. I used to use a Navy Apoc for missions running, fit with a t2 optimal rig. The flat 20% increase regardless of any tracking mods fit was really handy. It has it's uses in sniping fleets too... This makes me feel noob, more then usual, that I didnt know haha -------------------------------------- The Inquisition III - Relentless Retaliation
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:10:00 - [5] Originally by: Asania Dre This has been the case since the rigs were introduced afaik. I used to use a Navy Apoc for missions running, fit with a t2 optimal rig. The flat 20% increase regardless of any tracking mods fit was really handy. It has it's uses in sniping fleets too... No, it had to have changed with scripting. All rigs had always previously stacked just like any other module.
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong No, it had to have changed with scripting. All rigs had always previously stacked just like any other module. Sorry, going to have to disagree with you there. I haven't used the Navy Apoc since Trinity, but I used it plenty before Trinity. The bonus to optimal was a flat 20%, regardless of any tracking computers / enhancers fit. I spent some time testing it on sisi a while ago. Not sure if the same was true of tracking rigs though, and I think it's common knowledge that damage / rof rigs are stacking nerfed. From the info in the OP, I would guess that tracking rigs wern't stacking nerfed origionaly either. I guess this should be classified as a bug, but it's not a bug that was introduced with Trinity; it's always been there.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:23:00 - [7] I just set up a Rokh with a 210km optimal. No, that wasn't with ammo. Base optimal. Antimatter smackdown at 105km. Oh my. Boost locking range, kthx. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:37:00 - [8] Originally by: James Lyrus I just set up a Rokh with a 210km optimal. No, that wasn't with ammo. Base optimal. Antimatter smackdown at 105km. Oh my. Boost locking range, kthx. If things stay as they are, and the Paladin gets the same change of bonuses as the Apoc, my mission running ship will be a Paladin with around 30km optimal with multifrequency and about 90km with Scorch.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.02.10 01:45:00 - [9] Is this intentional or going to be patched in two weeks? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:19:00 - [10] Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 10/02/2008 03:19:23 if you look at the description for the projectile locus coordinator for instance it says: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. now for us old pen and paper ruleset lawyers this leaves a lot of room for interpretation: a) its bugged. b) "the same attribute on the ship" - it actually affects the attribute on the gun, not on the ship, so no stacking :P c) only the rig itself and similar rigs (ie the t2 version) get a stacking penalty. i for one think, its bugged, and will be changed soonÖ
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 03:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Avery Fatwallet Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 10/02/2008 03:19:23 if you look at the description for the projectile locus coordinator for instance it says: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. now for us old pen and paper ruleset lawyers this leaves a lot of room for interpretation: a) its bugged. b) "the same attribute on the ship" - it actually affects the attribute on the gun, not on the ship, so no stacking :P c) only the rig itself and similar rigs (ie the t2 version) get a stacking penalty. i for one think, its bugged, and will be changed soonÖ a
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire	Posted - 2008.02.10 06:02:00 - [12] yes, please, lets alert everyone to this so our snipers get patched into oblivion. yes, thanks!
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.10 08:26:00 - [13] Well since they nerfed the effect of TCs to 50% of what they were before when they introduced scripting, it would only be fair to have rigs NOT stack with them imho. But I am fairly certain it IS a bug and will be nerfed too soon :( There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.10 10:25:00 - [14] Originally by: Avery Fatwallet a) its bugged. b) "the same attribute on the ship" - it actually affects the attribute on the gun, not on the ship, so no stacking :P c) only the rig itself and similar rigs (ie the t2 version) get a stacking penalty. b) is certainly an interesting way of looking at it, but most other rigs don't seem to work this way, notably damage/rof rigs. I've bug-reported this in an effort to determine whether it's a bug or whether it's actually supposed to work like this. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.02.10 10:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Avery Fatwallet Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. e: Rigs are not modules So really we haven't a clue whether this will be changed or not. Removing the stacking penalty on certain rigs may actually make them useful, if it makes them overpowered the numbers can be scaled down. Would certainly be nicer than leaving them overpowered or nerfing them back into obscurity.
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 12:12:00 - [16] Just an additional bit of info: back when I was testing the optimal rigs on the Apoc I found that, whilst they arn't stacking nerfed with tracking mods, they are stacking nerfed with each other. I'm guessing that the optimal range from modules and the optimal range from rigs are flagged as different bonuses (probably because the modules affect 2 stats), so the stacking nerf code applies the nerf to each set, rather than the whole lot. If it is a bug (and not intentional) the fix may be as simple as changing the identifier on the bonus type of the rigs to match that of the modules. Hence (if it is a bug) I'd expect it to be fixed pretty quickly.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2008.02.10 12:18:00 - [17] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/02/2008 12:18:59 Originally by: Asania Dre I'm guessing that the optimal range from modules and the optimal range from rigs are flagged as different bonuses (probably because the modules affect 2 stats), so the stacking nerf code applies the nerf to each set, rather than the whole lot. I seriously doubt that this is the case, as other rigs that affect stats modified by modules with 2 properties are stacking nerfed just normally (like damage/RoF rigs). It is most likely a bug. And for all intents and purposes, rigs ARE indeed modules. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.10 12:42:00 - [18] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Avery Fatwallet Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. e: Rigs are not modules So really we haven't a clue whether this will be changed or not. Removing the stacking penalty on certain rigs may actually make them useful, if it makes them overpowered the numbers can be scaled down. Would certainly be nicer than leaving them overpowered or nerfing them back into obscurity. I'd be inclined to agree. I mean, really. How many people are actually going to fit a hybrid locus thingy (optimal rig) to a rokh? You're pretty tight on powergrid as it is, without voluntarily adding to it. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.10 12:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Asania Dre Edited by: Asania Dre on 10/02/2008 12:22:32 Just an additional bit of info: back when I was testing the optimal rigs on the Apoc I found that, whilst they arn't stacking nerfed with tracking mods, they are stacking nerfed with each other. This is what I've found, too, and it's how it's been implemented in the spreadsheet. As for the PG drawbacks - well, I wouldn't be surprised if the additional damage made this worthwhile even if you drop the 8th turret. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 13:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Avery Fatwallet Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. e: Rigs are not modules They count that way for everytning else that has stacking penalties, so for this purpose yes they are modules and they should get stacking penalties if you use them with modules that increase optimal range.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Industrial Research	Posted - 2008.02.10 13:22:00 - [21] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Avery Fatwallet a) its bugged. b) "the same attribute on the ship" - it actually affects the attribute on the gun, not on the ship, so no stacking :P c) only the rig itself and similar rigs (ie the t2 version) get a stacking penalty. b) is certainly an interesting way of looking at it, but most other rigs don't seem to work this way, notably damage/rof rigs. Not "most". NO rigs and modules that have stacking penalties work that way.
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 13:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Asania Dre edit:- might be interesting to try the same thing with rigs that affect targeting range and scan resolution vs sensor boosters / sig amps. Is quoting yourself bad form? Anyway, I've just tested this. Rigs that affect targeting range and scan resolution are not stacking nerfed with sensor boosters and sig amps, but are stacking nerfed with each other. Just like the optimal and tracking rigs. I also tested damage / rof rigs, just to confirm they are stacking nerfed with the modules, and they are.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.10 14:07:00 - [23] That is .... interesting information. Last time I cheked rigs were stacking with modules per attribute. Ie. If you used BCU on your ship (getting bonus to RoF and Damage) then if you fitted missile RoF rig it stacked with BCU, getting only 80% RoF effect, not 100% like it would have been if they would not stack. Do I understand you correct, that rigs no longer stack with modules if they apply to same attribute of ship ? If so then I will have to switch out my rigor rigs on my mission ship real fast (already having 4 BCU's, but if I would get 18 % more RoF and 10% more damage skipping the stacking nerf ... mmmmmmm).
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2008.02.10 14:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Avery Fatwallet a) its bugged. b) "the same attribute on the ship" - it actually affects the attribute on the gun, not on the ship, so no stacking :P c) only the rig itself and similar rigs (ie the t2 version) get a stacking penalty. b) is certainly an interesting way of looking at it, but most other rigs don't seem to work this way, notably damage/rof rigs. Not "most". NO rigs and modules that have stacking penalties work that way. Shrug. ECMs suffer stacking when overheating. Other stuff doesn't. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Asania Dre	Posted - 2008.02.10 14:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Carniflex That is .... interesting information. Last time I cheked rigs were stacking with modules per attribute. Ie. If you used BCU on your ship (getting bonus to RoF and Damage) then if you fitted missile RoF rig it stacked with BCU, getting only 80% RoF effect, not 100% like it would have been if they would not stack. Do I understand you correct, that rigs no longer stack with modules if they apply to same attribute of ship ? If so then I will have to switch out my rigor rigs on my mission ship real fast (already having 4 BCU's, but if I would get 18 % more RoF and 10% more damage skipping the stacking nerf ... mmmmmmm). No, in general, rigs are stacking nerfed with modules that affect the same stats. The (known) exceptions to this are rigs that affect optimal range and tracking of guns, and rigs that affect targeting range and scan resolution. Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 10/02/2008 12:18:59 Originally by: Asania Dre I'm guessing that the optimal range from modules and the optimal range from rigs are flagged as different bonuses (probably because the modules affect 2 stats), so the stacking nerf code applies the nerf to each set, rather than the whole lot. I seriously doubt that this is the case, as other rigs that affect stats modified by modules with 2 properties are stacking nerfed just normally (like damage/RoF rigs). It is most likely a bug. And for all intents and purposes, rigs ARE indeed modules. Opps, didn't think of that. How's this for an explination of why it might be like this: The stacking nerf was introduced before rigs were in the game. At the time of the stacking nerf most stats that were stacking only had 1 module that affected that stat (Gyro, BCU, etc). There were some stats that had 2 modules affecting them (sig amps / sensor boosters, tracking computers / enhancers, but no stat that had 3 modules that could affect it (is this true?). The stacking nerf was coded in such a way that a maximum of 2 types of modules could be processed for one stat. When rigs were introduced they were added to the stacking nerf, but in the case of optimal / tracking and scan res / range they couldn't fit into the existing stacking nerf code, as there were now 3 modules that affect these stats. Rather than rewrite the stacking nerf code they just left these rigs unnerfed with the modules, but stacking nerfed with themselves. Yes, I'm bored on a Sunday afternoon. Can you tell?
Daelin Blackleaf	Posted - 2008.02.10 15:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Avery Fatwallet Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. e: Rigs are not modules They count that way for everytning else that has stacking penalties, so for this purpose yes they are modules and they should get stacking penalties if you use them with modules that increase optimal range. No for this purpose they are not modules, they simply fall under the same rule. Both a concrete slab and an apple are effected by the law of gravity, that doesn't make concrete slabs a form of fruit. More importantly it doesn't matter if all rigs fall under the stacking penalty, the point I'm making is that maybe they shouldn't and the wording (which itself can be altered) does not imply that they inherently should.
Bronson Hughes Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2008.02.11 14:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro As for the PG drawbacks - well, I wouldn't be surprised if the additional damage made this worthwhile even if you drop the 8th turret. Or drop down to 350s. Similar range, better tracking, easier to fit. That's a no-brainer for me, at least until CCP fixes it. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.11 16:32:00 - [28] The bug report I submitted, in a spirit of enquiry, has now been marked as 'Attached to a defect'. However, this doesn't mean that a fix is imminent - I have one from last June which still hasn't got any further. I'll post here again when the status changes and a fix is is scheduled for a definite patch. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.11 16:39:00 - [29] Originally by: James Lyrus I just set up a Rokh with a 210km optimal. No, that wasn't with ammo. Base optimal. Antimatter smackdown at 105km. Oh my. Boost locking range, kthx. --- planetary interaction idea!
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.11 16:50:00 - [30] Interesting question: how long will it take for this to be fixed, and is it worth changing EFT to match the current situation in the meantime? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats

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