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Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1181
   |
Posted - 2012.02.16 18:06:00 -
[31] - Quote
Xolve wrote:ITT: PvE Players being :smug: about forcing PvP players to PvE; but criticizing EvE: Online (A PvP Game) for having 'PvP'.
One big circlejerk, working as intended.
Lets not forget:
PvP players being :smug: about forcing PvE players to PvP and then critisizing Eve Online (A sandbox game) for having non PvP content.
Complete circlejerk, working as intended. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 18:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Xolve wrote:ITT: PvE Players being :smug: about forcing PvP players to PvE; but criticizing EvE: Online (A PvP Game) for having 'PvP'.
One big circlejerk, working as intended.
Sorry, I think I must have missed all the smugness. Or perhaps you missed the point.
EvE is more than a PvP game. Claiming its just a PvP game shows a rather limited view. Without the people who mine, the people who build and the people who trade there would be no PvP. Without the people who PvE there would be no people to gank in high/low sec.
As to whether its working as intended only time will tell. From what others in this thread are suggesting this might be an unintended bug. It might also be an unannounced bad implementation of a new feature. Until CCP comments on it our views are mere conjecture. |
Jisu Viscera
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 18:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
Xolve wrote:ITT: PvE Players being :smug: about forcing PvP players to PvE; but criticizing EvE: Online (A PvP Game) for having 'PvP'.
One big circlejerk, working as intended.
I thought it was a sandbox game?
I was beaten to the punch. :( |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
897
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 18:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:
EvE is more than a PvP game. Claiming its just a PvP game shows a rather limited view. Without the people who mine, the people who build and the people who trade there would be no PvP. Without the people who PvE there would be no people to gank in high/low sec.
Some of us simply don't give a single gram of **** about Empire or Low-Sec. Without miners the markets wouldn't simply 'shut down', your implication that miners only exist in High-Sec and all the minerals in High-Sec come from these miners is completely ignorant. Minerals largely come from the Drone Regions (Not Highsec), people still produce, research, mine, and do all other sorts of Industry related things *NOT* in High Sec to build supercapitals and line ships matching their alliances fleet doctrines.
Security Status is a pointless mechanic as it stands, and most people who actually care about life in Empire space just skirt the -2.0 threshold; With a bit of time spent in Social Skills going from -10 to positive 5 literally takes a few sanctums in Null (look at my sec status if you don't believe me).
People actually rat together? (this in and of itself is frightening).
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Mane Frehm
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 19:48:00 -
[35] - Quote
OP here.
Interesting points of view, yet few are responding to one of the key issues. A mechanic change was made by CCP with no information provided to players....and "surprise" is not the way to run things.
As to the impact, yes, being an outlaw should have implications. And there are. While I think the whole security status system should be reviewed, in the current model it takes killing at least 10 if not 15 battleship rats to make up for one player kill, so its already painful/difficult to recover security status.
And finally - if the model for rats is now working as intended where only the player who "laid the final blow" gets the security increase, then it should be exactly the same in PvP kills - only the player who "laid the final blow" takes the large security hit for the kill. If thats the mechanic, fine....but today EVERYONE who is on the kill takes the large security status hit.
So CCP - pick one model or the other please. |
RuriHoshino
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
5
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 20:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Yes...not enough facepalms. This has nothing to do with ones desire to PvP or not. This has to do with piracy as a profession being far too easy. You are a criminal. It should be far more difficult to be successful as a criminal than any other profession, but it isn't. I live in Nullsec and WH space...I PvP on a daily bases between all my characters. You are a fool to assume that I have any aversion to PvP just because I like a mechanic change that positively effects a single aspect of PvP.
CCP. Feel free to make changes to the game as you see fit. It is YOUR game after all. If you can see it in your heart of hearts to fix Lowsec, however, please do so.
And you're a fool to assume that because I think this is a bad change, I must be a criminal. It's bad because it makes an already boring, repetitive mechanic even more boring and repetitive for no real reason. "Hard" and "Time Consuming" are not synonymous, and conflating the two is foolish. As it stands, taking criminal actions in Empire (eventually) requires you to solo X number of NPCs before you can fly through Empire without the faction police attacking you. Assuming that increasing the value of X will act as a deterrent to piracy reveals a gross misunderstanding of why people go -10 in the first place.
Making undocumented changes to the gameplay is an excellent way to erode player trust. The OP was encouraged to create this thread by a CCP employee to determine if this change is intended or a bug, which speaks to a larger problem of poor communication within CCP. Coming on the heels of CCP's claim of renewed commitment to iterating on EvE gameplay and being more open in communicating with players, these are disturbing occurrences. |
Funkert
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
7
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 20:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:Poor little pirates can't grind faction as easy as they could yesterday.
Tchulen wrote:However, this IS about the time you have to spend ratting sec status.
Jisu Viscera wrote:Yes, I understand, but it makes it take that much longer, which is nothing but a good thing..
Jesus H spacechrist..... i give up after this but did you guys really not read any of the posts from start to end?
SEC RATTING DID NOT GET ANY HARDER FOR THEM EVIL PIRATES
it does not take any longer, the rats still give the same boost, and crimes still take the same amount back.
And 99% of the people do it solo anyways so nothing changes.
so i will not get punished 'more',
i will not have to rat 'more',
it will take me same amount of time it always does
to GET BACK IN HISEC AND START MURDERING PEOPLE UNDER CONCORD'S NOSES
Xolve wrote:People actually rat together? (this in and of itself is frightening).
no not really :) Last time a hisec corp wardecced us we tried it for all of 30 minutes or so, that was the only time i did it as a group thing.
thats why i dont understand the OH YEAH PAYBACK SUFFER FOR YOUR CRIMES sperglords going all rabid. in practice this doesnt change the profession one bit
edit: my point is, i appreciate that y'all are so willing to share your views on crime and punishment in EVE in general, but this thread is not about that. This is about a tiny change that ccp implemented without reason that will only frustrate pirates and carebears alike in very rare cases*
Really, i actually agree that crime in hisec is too easy and i remember the days that ganking haulers took more than patience, but that is not the topic here.
*if you run missions with an alt, and you want to get to +5 for whatever reason, this will impact you too! |
Caliph Muhammed
Short Bus Friends
79
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 21:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:
I'm a well liked moron.
By scripts perhaps.
The difference between roids and sec status is that one generates a simulated physical item and the other is a simulated act.
I'll save my smugness for the new war expansions. They are on the horizon and if they aren't absolutely grief inducing and beautiful in redesign you'll see most of the pvp base protesting and quitting again. I'm confident we have the numbers. We killed dress up barbie and with just a slight organizational effort through Jita and the forums we could absolutely swamp the forums with anti high sec demands and such. Don't start a fight you aren't really prepared to have. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 07:44:00 -
[39] - Quote
Xolve wrote:
Some of us simply don't give a single gram of **** about Empire or Low-Sec. Without miners the markets wouldn't simply 'shut down', your implication that miners only exist in High-Sec and all the minerals in High-Sec come from these miners is completely ignorant. Minerals largely come from the Drone Regions (Not Highsec), people still produce, research, mine, and do all other sorts of Industry related things *NOT* in High Sec to build supercapitals and line ships matching their alliances fleet doctrines.
Security Status is a pointless mechanic as it stands, and most people who actually care about life in Empire space just skirt the -2.0 threshold; With a bit of time spent in Social Skills going from -10 to positive 5 literally takes a few sanctums in Null (look at my sec status if you don't believe me).
People actually rat together? (this in and of itself is frightening).
Important point there.... Some of us. Some people do give a **** about Empire and Low-Sec. Your implication that nullsec is the game is completely ignorant. Nullsec is a large part of the game but sec status has NOTHING to do with it so your argument is somewhat flawed.
As has been stated in MANY other threads where is it you null sec chaps get your vast amount of low end minerals from?? Well, from reading forum posts it sounds like a lot buy them from empire and ship them to nullsec. Thus, high sec miners mine your minerals. Not all minerals come from the drone regions and a lot of non cap stuff is actually produced in Empire.
Security status is not a pointless mechanic. Its a mechanic that people like you who would prefer absolutely no safer areas, in other words the complete nullsecification of the entire of New Eden, would like to get rid of but its unlikely to happen so get over it. |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
7346
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 14:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Xolve wrote:ITT: PvE Players being :smug: about forcing PvP players to PvE; but criticizing EvE: Online (A PvP Game) for having 'PvP'.
One big circlejerk, working as intended. Sorry, I think I must have missed all the smugness. Or perhaps you missed the point. EvE is more than a PvP game. Claiming its just a PvP game shows a rather limited view. Without the people who mine, the people who build and the people who trade there would be no PvP. Without the people who PvE there would be no people to gank in high/low sec. As to whether its working as intended only time will tell. From what others in this thread are suggesting this might be an unintended bug. It might also be an unannounced bad implementation of a new feature. Until CCP comments on it our views are mere conjecture. It's actually you, that has the limited view. For those that mine, build and trade, are also taking part in PvP. 
As far as the OP is concerned, I have no problems with this change at all. Can't do the time, don't do the crime.
CCP Zulu.....
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
906
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 14:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Important point there.... Some of us. Some people do give a **** about Empire and Low-Sec. Your implication that nullsec is the game is completely ignorant. Nullsec is a large part of the game but sec status has NOTHING to do with it so your argument is somewhat flawed.
As has been stated in MANY other threads where is it you null sec chaps get your vast amount of low end minerals from?? Well, from reading forum posts it sounds like a lot buy them from empire and ship them to nullsec. Thus, high sec miners mine your minerals. Not all minerals come from the drone regions and a lot of non cap stuff is actually produced in Empire.
Actually- from what I understand, the Russian botting empire farms Drone Regions day and night, hauls the crystals to 'Pubbie Space' (i.e. High Sec) and Refines them into minerals, then places them on the market, to be purchased by the larger nullsec alliances that can't be bothered to mine out the minerals necessary to build titans and supercarriers.
I'm really curious as to what the monthly isotope usage is jumping all that nonsense around. For the record, based on recent statistics (find it yourself, I'm not citing it) 63% of all PvP in the game takes place in Null. While actual occupancy leads to 61% in Empire; this may look like you bears are the more popular 'play style' but in reality, most people that live in Null have 3-4 accounts and almost 3 alts a piece in Empire. I'd be interested to see a study based on IP Addresses or even Registered Email Addresses of the number of accounts/characters that belong to a Null Main.
I'm sure you will try and refute this saying that Mission Runners and Empire Miners are the Majority of this game, but your wrong mate. The combined 34% of people that live in Null/LowSec and the 5% in Wormholes alts that live in Empire probably make up a large portion of that figure. So keep fighting the good fight about suicide ganking and how the game is dependant on Empire dwellers while ignoring the simple fact that 20 times more ISK is destroyed in Null Sec in a single day, then is destroyed in Empire in a single week.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Jisu Viscera
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 14:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
Funkert wrote:SEC RATTING DID NOT GET ANY HARDER FOR THEM EVIL PIRATES
it does not take any longer, the rats still give the same boost, and crimes still take the same amount back.
And 99% of the people do it solo anyways so nothing changes.
so i will not get punished 'more',
i will not have to rat 'more',
it will take me same amount of time it always does
to GET BACK IN HISEC AND START MURDERING PEOPLE UNDER CONCORD'S NOSES
OP disagrees with you...
Quote:b) grinding security status is slow and painful at the best of times; this change makes corporate roams through 0.0 to grind security status and kill the unwary much less fruitful
This is not an issue for those who want to go full pirate (-5.0 and beyond), but for those of us who are trying to keep our security status up it is a problem.
If it was "slow and painful" before, what is it now?
And you're actually confusing me with this kind of talk... Congratulations, I guess...
Quote:Jesus H spacechrist..... i give up after this but did you guys really not read any of the posts from start to end?
Quote:edit: my point is, i appreciate that y'all are so willing to share your views on crime and punishment in EVE in general, but this thread is not about that. This is about a tiny change that ccp implemented without reason that will only frustrate pirates and carebears alike in very rare cases*
The "tiny change without warning" was only one part of it - I was responding to the other part where he didn't like what changed, regardless of how the change came about. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa
Stark Enterprises
1183
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:16:00 -
[43] - Quote
Xolve wrote:
I'm really curious as to what the monthly isotope usage is jumping all that nonsense around. For the record, based on recent statistics (find it yourself, I'm not citing it) 63% of all PvP in the game takes place in Null. While actual occupancy leads to 61% in Empire; this may look like you bears are the more popular 'play style' but in reality, most people that live in Null have 3-4 accounts and almost 3 alts a piece in Empire. I'd be interested to see a study based on IP Addresses or even Registered Email Addresses of the number of accounts/characters that belong to a Null Main.
I'm sure you will try and refute this saying that Mission Runners and Empire Miners are the Majority of this game, but your wrong mate....
blah blah blah....
I would just like to point out, there are hi-sec natives with as much if not more accounts than 5 per head that don't play your version of Eve. Who log on purely to jew isk and then log off.
So maybe that study should be done before you go around making sensational statements like that..... |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
906
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 16:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:I would just like to point out, there are hi-sec natives with as much if not more accounts than 5 per head that don't play your version of Eve. Who log on purely to jew isk and then log off.
So maybe that study should be done before you go around making sensational statements like that.....
There are just as many dead-weight jews in 0.0 as there are in High Sec... doing the same ****, botting it the hell up.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Havalok
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 06:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Well if it wasnt announced as a change, this should be viewed as a bug.
If it was intended announce the change officiallly. |
Mane Frehm
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.21 02:04:00 -
[46] - Quote
I am quite impressed by CCP's recognition of this issue and their responsiveness. Well done! |
Mane Frehm
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
14
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 14:59:00 -
[47] - Quote
Updating this thread as I have now received a reply from CCP confirming that there was no intended change to the security status mechanism in Crucible and they are unable to determine if there was an unintended change, and requesting a bug report.
A few thoughts:
1. Bug report incoming. Will be a bit of a challenge to find a date and time when multiple players got the sec bump pre Crucible as I do a lot of ratting, but I'll find it.
2. I absolutely understand the challenge of reviewing a large/complex/legacy code base to determine what (if anything) changed. No problem with CCP needing to take some time.
3. The security status mechanism is now inconsistent for groups. Currently everyone on a PvP kill takes a security hit, but only 1 player in a group gets a security bump for killing a rat. Mechanism should be consistent one way or the other...and the suggestion made about getting a security status bump for killing a -5.0 player is worthy of considreration.
4. And a suggestion - there are still some improvements needed to communications protocols for GMs/CCP. There have to be a lot of petitions/questions on many many issues, but in many (most?) cases players are just left hanging - did CCP understand the concern...are they working on it....will I ever hear back from them? I first raised this issue back on February 7, over 2 weeks ago. Is 2 weeks a reasonable time frame for a detailed response? As of now, no one knows.
And so, I give you "service standards". CCP should establish a standard time frame for responses ( you will normally get a response to your petition within X working days), and regularly keep/publish metrics about how well they are meeting those standards. This will help manage expectations for players and CCP alike.
Stay tuned.......
|
Karah Serrigan
The Hatchery
Team Liquid
21
|
Posted - 2012.02.22 15:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:If you want to kill people in policed space you should expect to be an outlaw. Personally I think this is a good change. If you want to kill people without losing sec status go to space which isn't policed by CONCORD. If you don't care about being an outlaw/pirate keep on killing people in policed space. Simples!
Hey mate, i would like to quickly grab the opportunity to elaborate on this:
If i want to PvP without losing sec status i should go to space which is not policed by CONCORD.
Space of such properties would be any nullsec system absent of a CONCORD outpost and every wormhole system.
But here comes the crux:
If i want to rat my sec status back up, i have to go to space which has juicy battleship class rats without the need to accept missions because i might not have the standings for any level 4 or level 5 missions.
Now guess which space this would be? You're right, its nullsec. And guess whats so special about nullsec? Its absent of CONCORD.
Now to combine both statements: If i want to not have my sec status affected negatively, i have to go space where CONCORD is absent so they cant "trace" my crimes and i want to have my sec status affected positively i have to go to space where CONCORD is absent so they can "trace" my good deeds.
Now i would like you to answer this in all honesty: do you think this makes any sense?
And now please dont try to dodge the question with a statement such as: "You can also kill rats in lowsec". Yes, yes you can. And you could also run level 3 missions and have all level 4 missions being banned from highsec, how would you like that? |
whaynethepain
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.26 17:11:00 -
[49] - Quote
I accidently a pod a while back, in empire, and took a sec hit.
I have been orbiting cans in heavens firing F.O.F. missiles at rats in my drake for about 5 hrs now, and I'm bored, really really bored, the rats are bored, and the jet cans are bored. Boringly bored. Some waves of rats just sit and take it without a reaction.
Even trolling through the forums and playing another game while waiting for "the module has run outa charges" voice, is not helping, will be using one of my 5 alts next time, probly train one up specially, I learnt my lesson CCP.
I would much prefer to mine piwates, or characters who themselves are accident-prone too, maybe add a little immersion and player content to the security thing.
I think anyone should be able to have a bounty on their pod, for any in-game actions, it only bothers implant users anyhow, and adds to "status", we can really expand on the feature by placing pod bounty kills more easily, in game, for any transgression.
Also give me some of that piwate sec status from getting the baddies, and we can all go play nicely together again, I would be happy stalking around Low-Sec looking for "reds" and "orange" characters, to chew on, anything but this can circling, please CCP, pleeeease.
It may even be worth getting a fleet together to go bust a piwate gate camp for sec status sometime, do some vigilante work at the weekends etc..
The mechanics look in place already, just not stitched together very contemporarily, and used ironically by some.
Getting you on your feet.
So you've further to fall. |
Mane Frehm
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
14
|
Posted - 2012.03.06 22:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
******************* Update March 6, 2012*************
I received the following reply to this bug report:
Hello and thank you for your report. However, the behaviour described was changed so that only the person laying the final blow to the killed NPC is credited for the kill and therefore gains sec status. Regards, BH Mozgalom
Thank you for confirming that a change was made. However, I still have major concerns here as the information that this was changing was not included in the patch notes, nor were your GM colleagues advised. Furthermore, with this change you have now made game behaviour different between killing rats (only the final blow gets the security status increase) and killing players (all players involved in the kill take the full security status penalty). Please review and adjust one or the other. I will also be posting this to my petitions, the in game forums and to Failheap Challenge.
Thank you.
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