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Zen Mehari	Posted - 2008.02.14 04:35:00 - [1] Hi everyone I'm curious to hear player's thoughts on the following issue... Eve seems to have been designed with PvP at it's core and PvE as an afterthought -there are exceptions of course, but I think it's a fair generalisation. My questions are twofold: = First, if Eve had a stronger PvE focus, would it be more commercially successful? = Second, if more risk was divorced from the rewards of PvE (ie. made safer) would it make Eve more commercially successful? Thanks for your response.
Verx Interis Amarr Aurora Security The Cyrene Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.14 04:45:00 - [2] Yes and yes. Do we want that? No and No. Honestly, I would prefer they just dropped missions (except for the starting ones) to get all the agent-humpers to just quit. Less lag for us, less people sitting on loads of ISK docking whenever a war target in a frigate shows up. -----sig-starts-here------
Novemb3r Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:11:00 - [3] I struggle to understand the mind set of hardcore mission runners. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't do it, just that I fail to see the point of grinding ISK against NPCs to afford a CNR or whatever so you can grind ISK against NPCs faster. What's the point? Sure you end up with a great big pile of ISK. But then what? It just seems... -
Mara Rinn Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:14:00 - [4] How much more PvE focus can EVE have? When you start a new character, all you can do is PvE - you have CONCORD blowing you up otherwise (unless you're clever). You can choose to jump a few systems away to 0.4 space and promptly get podkilled by someone two weeks older in a gate camp. Or you can choose to keep playing the PvE side of EVE, building your standing with all the various corporations and governments around the place, running around in faction special ships with faction special fittings. How much safer could PvE be? NPCs will not podkill you - the most you lose is the ship and most of its fittings (assuming you eventually get to loot your wreck). Where would the joy in running PvE missions be if you didn't have a heart attack any time a player probed your deadspace and jumped in on top of you? From my point of view, PvE provides a nice way for new players to train and gear up so they can start taking on people who've been in the game for four years.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:17:00 - [5] Originally by: Novemb3r I struggle to understand the mind set of hardcore mission runners. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't do it, just that I fail to see the point of grinding ISK against NPCs to afford a CNR or whatever so you can grind ISK against NPCs faster. What's the point? Sure you end up with a great big pile of ISK. But then what? It just seems... This
Vikarion Caldari United Heavens	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:47:00 - [6] But...but...it's fun. I like EvE's PvE. I think it's mostly handled quite well. And I think it's fun. Grinding ISK may not be fun for others, but I honestly enjoy it. I wish I was better at it, as I'm rather poor, but I really, truly enjoy it. As for EvE being more commercially successful if it had stronger PvE focus...probably not, because the big factor with EvE is that it isn't "safe", it isn't "easy", and it isn't "idiot-friendly"...unlike some MMORPGs. If more risk was divorced from PvE...I'd say it's pretty safe right now. In other MMORPGs, PvE can be a lot harder. For instance, when I tried WoW, Guild Wars, and DDO, I was constantly getting my butt handed to me because - no matter how smart you play - you have to have a group. --------
Neslo Gallente DarkStar 1	Posted - 2008.02.14 05:53:00 - [7] Originally by: Zen Mehari Hi everyone I'm curious to hear player's thoughts on the following issue... Eve seems to have been designed with PvP at it's core and PvE as an afterthought -there are exceptions of course, but I think it's a fair generalisation. My questions are twofold: = First, if Eve had a stronger PvE focus, would it be more commercially successful? = Second, if more risk was divorced from the rewards of PvE (ie. made safer) would it make Eve more commercially successful? Thanks for your response. PVP is truly the core of Eve. There are many dev blogs, videos, interviews on mIRC, panels, etc etc... that testify to this fact. PVE and Industrials are means to build cash / support your PVP bretheren or your own PVP ends. However they want you to be able to perform the latter with relative ease (hence empire with concord) but not give you 100% immunity and provide a "risk vs reward" for those not performing in pure PVP. Definition of pure pvp for the purpose of this arguement is fighting spaceship battles in 0.0 space. .:FOR EXAMPLE:. Pirating in Low Sec - not pure pvp because you lose sec status, however enemies can't run around in gangs to fight you (hunters of pirates also lose sec status) risk vs reward. Running missions in low sec - more money, but you can be pirated. risk vs reward dreadnaughts / moon mining - more money, automated but can only be done in low sec so again trade to the vendors here are sometimes disrupted by pirates. risk vs reward. so to answer op questions: Would making PVE a focus be more commercially successful? yes, but for the wrong reasons and attracting the wrong people. second, should there be less risk in the above mentioned categories? no, because there is still high sec while you earn less slower... you still earn it. And again, making low sec more safe is counter productive to low sec in general imo. Nes From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.14 07:54:00 - [8] Edited by: Andrue on 14/02/2008 07:57:15 Originally by: Verx Interis Yes and yes. Do we want that? No and No. Honestly, I would prefer they just dropped missions (except for the starting ones) to get all the agent-humpers to just quit. Less lag for us, less people sitting on loads of ISK docking whenever a war target in a frigate shows up. ..a lot less money for CCP. Developers having to be laid off. Cluster being dismantled. Game seen as a failure in the industry. Eve shuts down. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.14 07:57:00 - [9] Originally by: Novemb3r I struggle to understand the mind set of hardcore mission runners. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't do it, just that I fail to see the point of grinding ISK against NPCs to afford a CNR or whatever so you can grind ISK against NPCs faster. What's the point? Sure you end up with a great big pile of ISK. But then what? It just seems... I find it sad that some people need to know that they have harmed another person in order to have fun. That people can get so excited about claiming 'sovereignty' over a collection of records in a database. That these same people so often can't accept another point of view and want to interfere and ruin the game for people who just don't think like them. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Co Mandor	Posted - 2008.02.14 08:28:00 - [10] Originally by: Andrue That these same people so often can't accept another point of view and want to interfere and ruin the game for people who just don't think like them. I think you'll find that statement applies to some people in all walks of life within eve....
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.14 08:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Verx Interis Yes and yes. Do we want that? No and No. Honestly, I would prefer they just dropped missions (except for the starting ones) to get all the agent-humpers to just quit. Less lag for us, less people sitting on loads of ISK docking whenever a war target in a frigate shows up. QFT Been ratting for sec status the last 2 days (woot -6.4) and all I can say is... How do people do it? ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
Gigi Barbagrigia Latent Appliance Fetishists	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:12:00 - [12] Originally by: techzer0 How do people do it? Beats looking at black screen or screenshot of a gate.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia Originally by: techzer0 How do people do it? Beats looking at black screen or screenshot of a gate. Yeah... I can't say I don't mind the isk. But shooting people > Shooting rats. Any day. The adrenaline rush is really kinda funny to me still... Not as fun as jumping out of a plane, but still best I've gotten from a PC game ------------ Originally by: Praxis1452 you win eve
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:44:00 - [14] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Gigi Barbagrigia Originally by: techzer0 How do people do it? Beats looking at black screen or screenshot of a gate. Yeah... I can't say I don't mind the isk. But shooting people > Shooting rats. Any day. The adrenaline rush is really kinda funny to me still... Not as fun as jumping out of a plane, but still best I've gotten from a PC game Only the second best adrenaline rush from a game that I've gotten. The text only MUD I played years ago beat EVE hands down on that front. Carrionfields ftw! :P Aquiring limited and server unique gear would takes months of pvp and all of it would be lost on the first mistake made. Had me literally shaking sometimes! Now there was a game where death meant something. You could literally force people to delete their char and start from scratch by relentlessly hunting them. It is still running, I believe, although I haven't rolled a char in 4 years...
Cosmar Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Cosmar on 14/02/2008 10:00:38 Originally by: Zen Mehari Hi everyone I'm curious to hear player's thoughts on the following issue... Eve seems to have been designed with PvP at it's core and PvE as an afterthought -there are exceptions of course, but I think it's a fair generalisation. My questions are twofold: = First, if Eve had a stronger PvE focus, would it be more commercially successful? It dosen't need more PvE "focus", just more/better group PvE. And i think with level 5 missions and shared rewards, etc.. CCP clearly understands the problem and tries to adress it. Whatever way you try to go about it, solo PvE eventually turns into an ISK grind, and everyone but the most obsessive of people would get bored of it. The secret of MMOs is people stay interesting long after the game gets boring. Quote: = Second, if more risk was divorced from the rewards of PvE (ie. made safer) would it make Eve more commercially successful? I doubt it, PvE people don't quit the game because it's too risky, they quit mostly because they stay in empire, play mostly alone and get bored when it gets repetitive. Getting easier ISK dosen't affect in any way the enjoyment of the game, if anything harder missions/rats etc.. and more unique stuff would make the game more attractive to people. Like say 1 NPC titan that spawns every reset somewhere at random in EvE you could hunt for (you ofcourse would need a large group for it). Or more unique stuff in each system to set them appart.. just throwing ideas around.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Verx Interis Yes and yes. Do we want that? No and No. Honestly, I would prefer they just dropped missions (except for the starting ones) to get all the agent-humpers to just quit. Less lag for us, less people sitting on loads of ISK docking whenever a war target in a frigate shows up. less lag? are you really that dense? I don't see how people that don't fight in 400 on 400 fights will reduce your lag. also where will you get your ships anymore? who will build them?
Melme Rahka Minmatar Vulcan Foundry	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:36:00 - [17] Originally by: MotherMoon also where will you get your ships anymore? who will build them? Would be fun to see ship prices jumping like crazy cause 2/3rd of ship manufacturers left and 90% of ship losers stayed....
Roy Gordon Caldari The Star Wolves Aunni Ti Tsuun Consortium	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:45:00 - [18] Ok, my take on this. If you removed the PvE element then you probably would lose a large proportion of your client base. You would also lose a source of named modules and faction loot as well, as these are generally only found on missions or from belt rats (I assume the PvPÆers want to see belt rats, cosmos and exploration removed as well?) No game based entirely on PvP has ever survived, as the PvPÆers have an awful tendency to upsticks and leave the moment a new game comes along. In my experience of playing on-line games for the last 11 years is that itÆs the RPÆers and PvEÆers who stick with their chosen game and who provide the core loyalty base. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.14 10:48:00 - [19] Originally by: Co Mandor Originally by: Andrue That these same people so often can't accept another point of view and want to interfere and ruin the game for people who just don't think like them. I think you'll find that statement applies to some people in all walks of life within eve.... Hmm. Though I'm curious about the "want to interfere and ruin" part, how do you apply that to your hardcore highsec missionrunner? Or miner? How is he wanting to interfere or ruin the game for your hardcore 0.0 PvPer, or lowsec pirate? Usually, he wants to be left in peace, to do his thing. Unless you're talking about forum fu? Which is out of game, and reflects a desire to improve tyhe game for him, where the detriment to others is a side effect, not the desired effect.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.14 12:01:00 - [20] Edited by: Andrue on 14/02/2008 12:03:56 Edited by: Andrue on 14/02/2008 12:03:00 Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Co Mandor Originally by: Andrue That these same people so often can't accept another point of view and want to interfere and ruin the game for people who just don't think like them. I think you'll find that statement applies to some people in all walks of life within eve.... Hmm. Though I'm curious about the "want to interfere and ruin" part That's a reference to the poster wanting to see missions removed from the game. Surely you wouldn't suggest that he sees the impact on the PvE players as a 'side effect'? Although given his bizarre assertion that it would somehow reduce lag for him (presumably a non-mission runner) maybe he actually hasn't thought the consequences through. Of course there's also PvE people with the same selfish and shortsighted attitude. We call them carebears. It all goes to show that there's quite a few people with little or no understanding or consideration for other people's view point. Quelle surprise -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Co Mandor Originally by: Andrue That these same people so often can't accept another point of view and want to interfere and ruin the game for people who just don't think like them. I think you'll find that statement applies to some people in all walks of life within eve.... Hmm. Though I'm curious about the "want to interfere and ruin" part That's a reference to the poster wanting to see missions removed from the game. Surely you wouldn't suggest that he sees the impact on the PvE players as a 'side effect'? Although given his bizarre assertion that it would somehow reduce lag for him (presumably a non-mission runner) maybe he actually hasn't thought the consequences through. Of course there's also PvE people with the same selfish and shortsighted attitude. We call them carebears. It all goes to show that there's quite a few people with little or no understanding or consideration for other people's view point. Quelle surprise scratches head I was replying to Co Mandor. I.e. I asked how the missionrunner wants to interfere with and ruin the PvPers game; How the PvE guy derives his enjoyment from the PvPers misery, and not from more succesful PvE-ing.
Seine State War Academy	Posted - 2008.02.14 13:48:00 - [22] Originally by: Andrue Of course there's also PvE people with the same selfish and shortsighted attitude. We call them carebears.[/quote Carebear is a term used to define someone who does not like pvp, no more, no less. Making sweeping generalizations about the intentions of a group of people and then labeling them with nomenclature intented to seperate them, only serves to widen the divide that already exsists between PvPers and PvEers
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.14 14:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Andrue on 14/02/2008 14:55:13 Originally by: Seine Originally by: Andrue Of course there's also PvE people with the same selfish and shortsighted attitude. We call them carebears. Carebear is a term used to define someone who does not like pvp, no more, no less. Making sweeping generalizations about the intentions of a group of people and then labeling them with nomenclature intented to seperate them, only serves to widen the divide that already exsists between PvPers and PvEers I agree that's why I'm intrigued that your definition is more sweeping than mine. Worse still it seems to be based on a category of game play rather than the particular attitude of a player. IOW you label people based on where they play the game - I label them based on their actions. My definition only includes a small number of PvE players (those that tend to come on here and whine). The majority of PvE players accept that Eve is a harsh place and have the good sense to minimise the risks. If/when they do get caught out they accept that sh!t happens and learn from their mistake. In any case this is a discussion that's been had several times over the years probably in every MMORPG where the attitude difference crops up. I think that 'carebear' is a derogative term so I reserve it for people that I feel deserve it because of their attitude and actions. In fact my definition also allows PvP players to be carebears since some of them are just after the easy kill and whine everytime someone switches on their warp scrambler. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.02.14 15:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Zen Mehari = First, if Eve had a stronger PvE focus, would it be more commercially successful? Maybe. To be honest though, I think Eve just might have the worst PvE of all MMOs. Perhaps that's a little harsh, but it's definately safe to say that PvE isn't Eve's strong point. It seems pretty obvious to me that from the ground up, PvE hasn't been the main focus. It's been the PvP elements of the game that's gotten the most attention, and that doesn't mean just ships blowing up. It also seems obvious (to me anyway) that what gives Eve it's draw is the mixing of pve and pvp elements in such a way that a player can choose to what degree they want to pvp. But imho, Eve just isn't a pve game. And it really shouldn't try to be. Other games have got that in the bag and I think it would be a mistake for Eve to try and compete with that. So, if anything, they should focus on what makes Eve different, not try to turn it into a (very) poor man's WoW. Originally by: Zen Mehari = Second, if more risk was divorced from the rewards of PvE (ie. made safer) would it make Eve more commercially successful? Probably not. It's already pretty easy to avoid risks created by other players if you just apply a little brainpower to things. So I really don't see much potential for such a change to improve pve while it would be likely to damage the pvp side of things. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:03:00 - [25] It's definately a love-hate relationship with PvE in Eve. I think the main problem is that once you've done a few missions, you've seen just about all the tricks NPCs have in their bag, whereas every PvP encounter has the potential for WTFOMGness. What CCP needs to do is take a good look at PvP encounters and model their PvE off that. Gate rats are a good idea, but aren't seen often enough and are too easy to make people sweat anymore. Put an NPC carrier 30km off a gate and you'll get the idea where this should be going. There also needs to be a dynamic element to the missions. In my epic(-ly unappreciated) "Mission Overhaul and Dynamic Agent Quality" post in Features and Suggestions, I offered an alternative to add a PvP subtext and dynamic elements to the PvE system. While it'll never be as exciting as ganking Ibises in Amamake, NPC missions should provide some competitive challenge and unexpected elements to make it feel like less of the grind that it is.
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Snake Assault	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Novemb3r I struggle to understand the mind set of hardcore mission runners. Not that I'm saying they shouldn't do it, just that I fail to see the point of grinding ISK against NPCs to afford a CNR or whatever so you can grind ISK against NPCs faster. What's the point? Sure you end up with a great big pile of ISK. But then what? It just seems... I can't understand it either, but that's just because I enjoy the riskier parts of games instead of this whole strive-for-something-shiny-but-please-don't-get-held-back syndrome. Both my brothers enjoy WoW. They get all excited about grinding their characters to level whatever-is-the-max-now, and then buy whatever-you-call-the-best equipment. Then they see that whichever-character-class is the new fotm, and start from scratch with that one. I tried to play that unholy game three times during the last 4 years or so, and everytime by the time I got to level 20ish I got bored to death and quit again. I guess I'm influenced by the first MMORPG I have ever played - UO (pre-Trammel). That game was awesome. You could get killed, looted to the bone, and even - in certain circumstances - lose skills! Now, that gets your blood pumping in critical situations when you actually can lose the stuff you've struggled to gather with one stupid mistake or well-planned attack from your opponents. Not to mention the PKs and PK-Hunters. Long story short: I can't understand them, but there are enough people who just can't get enough of the gather-stuff-until-I-can-buy-that-shiny-item class.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:20:00 - [27] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Verx Interis Yes and yes. Do we want that? No and No. Honestly, I would prefer they just dropped missions (except for the starting ones) to get all the agent-humpers to just quit. Less lag for us, less people sitting on loads of ISK docking whenever a war target in a frigate shows up. QFT Been ratting for sec status the last 2 days (woot -6.4) and all I can say is... How do people do it? The same way PvPers do gatecamps and beltganks against targets which they totally and completely outclass. The only difference is the numbers of hunters relative to the number of targets. PvP roaming gangs are six hunters to one target, PvE beltratting is one hunter to six targets. In both cases, the prey has no chance, the only difference is whether the target is someone at a computer or a computer running a script. The outcome for each are the same consistently, every time. Personally, I wish they'd dismantle PvP outside of wardecs and focus on an interesting empire based series of storyline quests, but that's no more likely to happen than your wish. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:37:00 - [28] Originally by: Janu Hull Personally, I wish they'd dismantle PvP outside of wardecs and focus on an interesting empire based series of storyline quests, but that's no more likely to happen than your wish. Get out of 0.0
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita The Reckoning.	Posted - 2008.02.14 16:52:00 - [29] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: Janu Hull Personally, I wish they'd dismantle PvP outside of wardecs and focus on an interesting empire based series of storyline quests, but that's no more likely to happen than your wish. Get out of 0.0 PvPers are such simple creatures. Like most lower life forms, they are primarily creatures of reflex and impulse. Note this specimen and his very basic gag response to an off the cuff threat to his perceived behavior model. I'm not sure if the PvPers in this game follow the Pavlovian model of response/reward conditioning, or would some of Jung's theories on repressed personality traits apply? In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Zev'Nar Minmatar Carebear Salvagers Incorporated	Posted - 2008.02.14 17:05:00 - [30] Edited by: Zev''Nar on 14/02/2008 17:08:42 Probably. I would add more PVE / RP? elements/content without changing the core sandbox/brutality of the game. Quote: Thoughts on PVP.... PvP? Not really for me. I want to play EVE to relax and take my mind off work, even though playing and working are so intertwined in my case. Too much work to PvP. - CCP kieron

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