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taekwandokid	Posted - 2008.02.18 00:45:00 - [1] I personally think the nighthawk should get one more launcher hardpoint. The dps is horrible compared to the other races of command ships. And maybe an extra med slot for tank, but seriously needs an extra launcher.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 01:11:00 - [2] The Nighthawk needs 300 extra PG and the useless precision bonus changed to something less, well, useless. Swapping a lowslot to a midslot would then be nice. I wouldn't turn down a 7th launcher, but the NH's problems lie elsewhere.
Law Enforcer Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.18 02:51:00 - [3] I think the nighthawk is a fine command ship. 470'ish dps and a 600'ish dps omin tank isn't bad.
taekwandokid	Posted - 2008.02.18 03:26:00 - [4] around 650dps on the sleip
Yon89	Posted - 2008.02.18 03:42:00 - [5] While we are on the topic of the nighthawk The nighthawk to me seems like a ship that has been forgotten about when Heavy assault missile were introduced. I personally think that the precision bonus should be adjusted to affect HAM's by giving them longer flight time or increase there speed. If it gets another bonus to only HAM's, it would make the ship much more appealing to people that have T2 HAM's because as it stands at the moment there is nothing to make it appeal to me. Yon89 And Fix how to log into the forums took me 3 time to post this response ============= SIG SIG SIG
Zanquis Caldari CSS Ltd. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.02.18 05:27:00 - [6] I most definitly agree here. The Nighthawk struggles with its grid and fitting a gang warfare link module is out of the question. Assault missiles are also out of the question due to the power grid. However, I think 300 grid extra is excessive and give too much freedom to the boat. Adding another 150-200 grid would be more then sufficient. If I had another 300 grid on a Nighthawk giving it an uber fit would be easy. With another 150-200 grid you at least need to make some sacrifices to fit the ship, and it would actually give you choices. You would be able to use a full rack of heavy launchers and a decent passive tank with a gang link, or you can drop the gang link and maybe add use a MWD and assault missiles. ****************************************** CEO of CSS Ltd.**
Pumpkin Bread Caldari Death of Virtue Sex Panthers	Posted - 2008.02.18 06:19:00 - [7] In all honesty, the nighthawk is fine. It has a huge advantage over other command ships, survivablity. 700m3 cargohold anyone? That is almost double the rest of the command ships cargo holds, not to mention bigger than every t1 battleship cargo hold. Low dps? Of course it isn't going to do much dps, unless you fit ham's, and in regard to hams, yes I do agree it is short on grid forcing me to fill the lows with power diagnostics, but the way you can tank and outlast opponents is how it seems the ship is meant to be flown. I mean, sure more grid and/or an extra launcher would be welcomed, but it is not needed.
Law Enforcer Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.18 06:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Law Enforcer on 18/02/2008 06:22:04 Originally by: taekwandokid around 650dps on the sleip that was with heavy missles. Hams do about 656dps. I think it may need a little more cpu/grid but the slot layout is fine.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.18 08:51:00 - [9] Originally by: taekwandokid I personally think the nighthawk should get one more launcher hardpoint. The dps is horrible compared to the other races of command ships. And maybe an extra med slot for tank, but seriously needs an extra launcher. No. It needs a bonus reduction for gang warfare links or perhaps a PG boost. Damage output is plenty good enough when you've got your skills up. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 08:55:00 - [10] To illustrate the NH's grid problem, here is a sensible NH pvp fit. It uses HAMs, has a MWD and is active-tanked with a gang mod - fairly comparable with the close-range fits on other CS, and well suited for small-gang warfare. 6x HAM II, gang mod MWD II, Medium electro cap booster, LSB II, 2x Inv II 3x RCU II, PDS II, DC II. Notice that it requires 4 fitting mods to work! Without the RCU IIs and PDS II, you are using 1363.4 of 887.5 PG - that's a 475.9 PG shortfall!! This is just absurd. Now, I'm quite happy for that NH fit to require a fitting mod (maybe even two?) - it does represent a high-end fit after all. But requiring 4 fitting mods is just stupid. A PG boost of 300 would enable that setup to fit with max skills and a single RCU II. Currently, the NH is almost overshadowed by the Drake - the NH's superior theoretical DPS and tank is generally overshadowed by the Drake's easier fitting of BCS and its superior slot layout. A substantial PG boost will fix this.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.02.18 09:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Gypsio III To illustrate the NH's grid problem, here is a sensible NH pvp fit. It uses HAMs, has a MWD and is active-tanked with a gang mod - fairly comparable with the close-range fits on other CS, and well suited for small-gang warfare. 6x HAM II, gang mod MWD II, Medium electro cap booster, LSB II, 2x Inv II 3x RCU II, PDS II, DC II. Notice that it requires 4 fitting mods to work! Without the RCU IIs and PDS II, you are using 1363.4 of 887.5 PG - that's a 475.9 PG shortfall!! This is just absurd. Now, I'm quite happy for that NH fit to require a fitting mod (maybe even two?) - it does represent a high-end fit after all. But requiring 4 fitting mods is just stupid. A PG boost of 300 would enable that setup to fit with max skills and a single RCU II. Currently, the NH is almost overshadowed by the Drake - the NH's superior theoretical DPS and tank is generally overshadowed by the Drake's easier fitting of BCS and its superior slot layout. A substantial PG boost will fix this. Drop the bloody gang link for a start. None of them find it easy to fit a gang link without breaking the rest of their setup. And as far as its DPS goes, yeah, it has the same low " On Paper " DPS as pretty much every single missile ship in the game. Anyone who hasnt worked out that on paper DPS is meaningless needs to get out and play a bit more. A Sleipnir may do 600 odd DPS, but it only does that at 2km. At 15KM you can scrub 25% of that for the guns being partially into falloff, which, SHOCK HORROR, brings the damage down closer to the 450 mark. Which really isnt that much different to a NH. But with regards to HAM's, yeah, some extra PG and swapping the Precision bonus to Velocity really wouldn't go amiss.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.18 10:11:00 - [12] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/02/2008 10:11:33 Originally by: bldyannoyed Drop the bloody gang link for a start. None of them find it easy to fit a gang link without breaking the rest of their setup. And this is the problem. The Nighthawk is a command ship. Any setup without a gang mod is a complete waste, and you should just fly a Raven or Cerberus instead. If the Nighthawk can not fit a gang mod without killing the rest of the setup, the ship is broken. It needs at least +400 grid, and probably some CPU as well.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.02.18 10:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/02/2008 10:11:33 Originally by: bldyannoyed Drop the bloody gang link for a start. None of them find it easy to fit a gang link without breaking the rest of their setup. And this is the problem. The Nighthawk is a command ship. Any setup without a gang mod is a complete waste, and you should just fly a Raven or Cerberus instead. If the Nighthawk can not fit a gang mod without killing the rest of the setup, the ship is broken. It needs at least +400 grid, and probably some CPU as well. Presumably then you would intend to give the same boost to the other Command Ships to allow them the same fitting leeway. You wanna fit gang links you fly the FLEET Command ships. The fact that the FIELD Command ships have the arbitrary bonus to gang link CPU is no excuse to a) cripple a potentially powerful combat setup to get one on or b) come to the forums and waaaah when you can't.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 12:02:00 - [14] I don't have EFT to hand, but the last time I looked at the fittings of the other Field CS, I think that they had a much easier time fitting gang mods than the NH. I'll look at the numbers again tonight.
Amira Shadowsong Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.18 14:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/02/2008 10:11:33 Originally by: bldyannoyed Drop the bloody gang link for a start. None of them find it easy to fit a gang link without breaking the rest of their setup. And this is the problem. The Nighthawk is a command ship. Any setup without a gang mod is a complete waste, and you should just fly a Raven or Cerberus instead. If the Nighthawk can not fit a gang mod without killing the rest of the setup, the ship is broken. It needs at least +400 grid, and probably some CPU as well. None of the other field commands can fit the gang mod without sacrifice, why should the nighthawk?
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 14:31:00 - [16] Please inform us of the numbers of fitting mods required on the other Field CS. I'd do this myself, but I don't have EFT to hand. Then compare that with the four fitting mods required on that NH fit.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:22:00 - [17] Originally by: Amira Shadowsong Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/02/2008 10:11:33 Originally by: bldyannoyed Drop the bloody gang link for a start. None of them find it easy to fit a gang link without breaking the rest of their setup. And this is the problem. The Nighthawk is a command ship. Any setup without a gang mod is a complete waste, and you should just fly a Raven or Cerberus instead. If the Nighthawk can not fit a gang mod without killing the rest of the setup, the ship is broken. It needs at least +400 grid, and probably some CPU as well. None of the other field commands can fit the gang mod without sacrifice, why should the nighthawk? None of the others sacrifice so much as the nighthawk. It doesn't need a PG increase though, HAMs need a PG decrease
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:23:00 - [18] Actually, I'll do it myself. The fits I've used here are for comparison purposes - they have a full rack of highest-tier weapons, and a gang mod and a MWD II, and a LSB II or dual-rep II tank. Plus whatever seemed best in lowslots, the fits seem reasonable enough. Maybe not ideal pvp fits (no nanoSleip), but they're good enough and enable a fair comparison of potential fits. Let's see how many fitting mods they require... Absolution: requires a RCU II, and dropping a EANM II to ANP II because of CPU. Astarte: requires a RCU II. Sleipnir: No fitting mods required (unless you really want an XLSB, but the numbers seem ok without it). Nighthawk. Er, requires 3 RCU IIs and a PDS II because of stupidly gimped PG. Giving the NH 300 extra PG will bring it into line with the other CS, by requiring it to fit a single RCU II, just like the Absolution and Astarte.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Guom None of the others sacrifice so much as the nighthawk. It doesn't need a PG increase though, HAMs need a PG decrease The scale of the NH problem is too much here - a simple HAM PG decrease will never be enough. On that NH fit, even if you replace the HAM IIs with AML IIs, you still need a RCU for it to fit!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:33:00 - [20] Drop the cap booster and LSB and it becomes reasonable.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 15:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Gypsio III on 18/02/2008 15:50:54 Quote: Drop the cap booster and LSB and it becomes reasonable. Hardly. A RCU II and PDS II are required just to fit 6x HAM II, gang mod and MWD II. If we upgrade to a second RCU II, then we can just about squeeze on a named LSE and hardeners, leaving us with a ship that's probably inferior to a PVP Drake. Of course, implants and rigs and named MWDs etc can help further, but the original point here was to compare the fitting to those of other, similarly-fit CS.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.18 16:24:00 - [22] Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 18/02/2008 15:50:54 Quote: Drop the cap booster and LSB and it becomes reasonable. Hardly. A RCU II and PDS II are required just to fit 6x HAM II, gang mod and MWD II. If we upgrade to a second RCU II, then we can just about squeeze on a named LSE and hardeners, leaving us with a ship that's probably inferior to a PVP Drake. Of course, implants and rigs and named MWDs etc can help further, but the original point here was to compare the fitting to those of other, similarly-fit CS. I mean after the PG reduction on HAMs. I think we have established that HAMs use too much PG right now. The issue is that you should not also be able to cram an injector and LSB on as well[equivalent to an injector and dual MAR tank on an armor tanked ship]
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:02:00 - [23] With heavy missiles, a nighthawk can put out 650 dps and tank a similar amount - in that regard, it certainly doesn't need fixed. If you can't get these numbers, I suggest you get a bit more inventive with your setups! All command ships to my mind could do with a little revision to allow them easier access to gang mods, not just the Nighthawk: It's fine as it is.
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:26:00 - [24] Originally by: Cedric Diggory With heavy missiles, a nighthawk can put out 650 dps and tank a similar amount - in that regard, it certainly doesn't need fixed. If you can't get these numbers, I suggest you get a bit more inventive with your setups! All command ships to my mind could do with a little revision to allow them easier access to gang mods, not just the Nighthawk: It's fine as it is. I'm crap at thinking missile and shield setups, how did you do that? How do you manage the cap? How fast is it? 650 dps even delayed at more than 60km is huge. Most of other field commands can't do that at this range with such tank. -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:35:00 - [25] I'd like to see that fit as well... And if it doesn't have a MWD, it's not a pvp fit and doesn't count. You could argue similarly for the gang mod.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:35:00 - [26] Edited by: Cedric Diggory on 18/02/2008 17:36:23 Quote: How do you manage the cap? Medium injector. Quote: How fast is it? Not very: no microwarpdrive. Thankfully if you're using heavy missiles over hams, it's not such an issue. If I'm totally fair, before implants and boosters it's 600 DPS and 550 DPS tanked. Implants and boosters make up the balance - not expensive pirate ones, but still they do need mentioned. I spent a long time figuring it out, and as it stands there's no contest: The Nighthawk is best used with heavies. Leave the HAMs for the minmatar! Quote: And if it doesn't have a MWD, it's not a pvp fit and doesn't count. Bull****! Does that mean that no Amarr ship can PVP? I don't see many MWDs on Geddons...
Eleana Tomelac Gallente Through the Looking Glass	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:54:00 - [27] Yeah, as you're not struggling with the powergrid, you have room for ballistic control systems, and this makes a cool damage and tank. I didn't put any implants in EFT which is why I can't get to those values. About the MWD, well, the range is enough for any situation, it's not like an astarte shooting at 3 km or a slepnir which is fairly the same or an absolution at 22km with scorch... It manages the fight on heavies without moving (and the light drones still have 50km on an average drone user). And if your targets are this far, then warping out and warping back in is the way to do (because if they are this far, you have the time to warp before being scrambled). I can hardly see how a beam absolution could reach this level of damage and keep up on the tank. The astarte is not for ranged fight, you may reach very high DPS, it's his job, but you sacrified your tank and must shoot at 2200m on a stopped target to take full advantage of this 'impressive EFT value'. I think that what is wrong in what you're doing with the nighthawk is using HAM, it was designed before they exist, and it should remain on using heavy missiles and using part of his low slots for BCUs instead of powerdiags so its heavies hurt as much as the HAMs! And the other thing that is quite wrong in this post is trying to use gang links on FIELD command ships. Or you're telling me that you forbid any battlecruiser without a gang link in your gangs which limits what people will fly... Field commands are boosted battlecruisers, they are damage dealers who have enough to care about their survival not to gimp their setups with links. I really think they were designed without! -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast ! Assault Frigates MK II
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 17:54:00 - [28] His fit appears to be: 6x HM II (CN Scourge) LSB II, Amp II, Cap booster, 2x Inv II PDS II, 4x BCS II 2x Op solidifier rigs 3% CPU implant 5% missile ROF and HM damage implants 653 DPS with drones (554 DPS without). 642 DPS permatanked while cap charges are available. It's a solid fit. But I spent ages trying to convince myself that MWD wasn't essential, and eventually I gave up. Since then, I've jumped into too many camps, or been bumped off station too many times, to ever thing about changing my mind again. And I don't even "do" 0.0.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.18 18:08:00 - [29] Now what I want to fly is something like... 6x CN HAML (less PG than T2, about 16 mill each though :( ) Named MWD, LSB II, cap booster, 2x Inv II RCU II, 4x BCS II 2x Solidifier rigs 5x Hobbie IIs 5% PG, HAM damage and missile ROF implants 814 DPS to 20 km range, 587 DPS tanked, huge pile of ISK lost when it pops.
Forced Evil	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:26:00 - [30] The problem is the following. if u assume to fit your commandship with the same skillevel, same modul types and same usage u get this numbers: (all with maxed skills, best damage weapon, navy or republic ammo, tank, cap booster, mwd - this setups are not made for just tank, but to do some damage, able to be flying with the gang) Sleipnir: speed - 1422m/s dps - 660 dps with drones - 787 defence - 410dps not need to use any fitting mods Astarte: speed - 1205m/s dps - 652 dps with drones - 810 defence - 342 1x RCU needed Absolution: speed - 1233m/s dps - 687 dps with drones - 786 defence - 355dps not need to use any fitting mods Nighthawk: speed - 1125m/s dps - 593 dps with drones - 692 defence - 369 2x RCU needed So let see.... NH is the slowest have the worst DPS(around 10% less than the second worst) the defence is good, but not as much(yes u can pimp up) and need 2 fitting mods to be able to fit with the mods and the high end weapons The only advantage is the range of his weapons If devs wuld incrase the PG of the ship so that it could drop at least 1 RCU and use an another BCU, it could do with drones 728dps and without drones 629dps. Would be still the worst DPS of the command ships. Second issue is that the precision bonus is almost useless in pvp..... is usefull just against frig sized ship, but they are so fast that the explo velocity is not enough to harm them. The best what devs could do is incrase the base PG on NH by 150, decrase the PG usage of HAM's by 15% and give an another bonus(like missile velocity or cap rech, cargo space or something what could be usefull(not this ones, because some of this can be overpowered))

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