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Baxalusx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:22:00 - [31] Edited by: Baxalusx on 19/02/2008 17:23:41 Originally by: marakor Considering you are taking there space how the ** can you still be so bitter?. Your point about BOB getting told about the titan being a great ship by a dev is not only sad but pitiful considering that ascn had one first from what i remember, so did ascn and d2 have a dev advising them as well?. Oh look you say that BOB built their titan for actual combat but D2 and ASCN built theres cos they are pretty or whatever. You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost, while the one alliance that demonstrably had a developer leading its capital fleet decided to begin near mass production. Those are the facts; I drew a very reasonable conclusion that you, of course, are free to disagree with. Naturally, it's also perfectly possible that the fact their capfleet commander was a developer gave them no advantage whatsoever and that there's been a big mistake, but you know -- no. Originally by:** Tholarim you remind me of ascn leadership. They used to make up these fantasies as well. Suas made that up to explain why you were losing at that point. gahahaha what "NO IT'S NOT TRUE" --------- ~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~
Proxay Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:27:00 - [32] Originally by: Baxalusx gahahaha what "NO IT'S NOT TRUE" You don't seem to chill brosef... Here's a mojito, come chill with me by the pool. If you're going to remove a signature, at least make sure it's got something that breaks the EULA, k-ta.
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:28:00 - [33] Edited by: thoth foc on 19/02/2008 17:28:09 Originally by: Baxalusx You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost Given CCP's demonstrably tendency to make new ships overpowered, you might want to start questioning the leadership of "Most major" alliances.. There is a reason you need all those NAP's to survive.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Firkragg PREDATORS OF DESTRUCTION	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:41:00 - [34] Originally by: Lara Renquist I can anwser that question aswell if you really want... let's see BoB is a superpower, superpowers are targetted real fast. So basicly people make a decent move on bob and what happens? Almost entire EvE jumps into the bandawgon cause now everyone suddenly wants a piece of BoB. The sad part is 90% of the people that jumped the bandwagon to fight bob, will easely jump on another if it is time for the swarm to die. Loyalty is hard to get by these day's. Actually tbh this is how things should be. On the chinese server its been demonstrated how eve suffers with one big power block dominating all of 0.0 (although i heard somone say that a new force is starting to turn back the tide there)
Gloomy Gus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:00:00 - [35] As a matter of fact I did a short history of this very war a long time ago and repoasted it the other day so I have it handy here you go (this starts with "We're stealing your targets Chow"): We gritted our teeth at first, it was rougher than we'd anticipated and we really hadn't expected them to come from that direction. Slowly however over time we came to welcome the new sensations of our defenses' being penetrated so deeply. Their titans were then unstoppable and we were battered over and over, their fleets moving in and out of our borders at will. After a while we got used to the rhythm of things, and begin to move our fleets to take advantage of the friction and indeed groove with the flow. You can only fire a doomsday so often however, and between shots there's plenty of time to recover and heal. After Bein Glorious' long boring treatise their titans became limp and pretty soon the pillar of their fleet was flaccid. After the violent end of one such pillar this threat became soft and they seemed far less eager than in the past. Slowly the lumbering armies turned around, and as soon as the RSF had their hands on the shoulders of the GBC things began moving in the other direction. While the Russians and their massive titans began breaking down BoB's brittle internal barriers, the TCF and Goons and all of their other allies begin filling all other available holes in the GBC's defenses. BoB's cries slowly became more and more muffled as they lost traction under the press of so many eager participants, and their mouthpieces were chocked off with the flood of fofofo until only an occasional pained gasp could be heard on CAOD. Now their forces huddle broken and bleeding on the cold tile floor of the shower that is Delve, clutching themselves and wondering who to blame and why this happened to them. Had they been too provocative? Was it the armor of their ships, did it not cover enough therefore inviting others to take advantage? Would things have been different if they hadn't been walking in 0.0 after dark? Originally by: JakeNoble well id just like to say kilz is an epic****got
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:22:00 - [36] Originally by: Baxalusx Originally by: marakor Considering you are taking there space how the **** can you still be so bitter?. Your point about BOB getting told about the titan being a great ship by a dev is not only sad but pitiful considering that ascn had one first from what i remember, so did ascn and d2 have a dev advising them as well?. Oh look you say that BOB built their titan for actual combat but D2 and ASCN built theres cos they are pretty or whatever. You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost, while the one alliance that demonstrably had a developer leading its capital fleet decided to begin near mass production. Those are the facts; I drew a very reasonable conclusion that you, of course, are free to disagree with. Naturally, it's also perfectly possible that the fact their capfleet commander was a developer gave them no advantage whatsoever and that there's been a big mistake, but you know -- no. So a very active pvp alliance decided to build the ultimate in pvp ship at the time (what a shocker)and you say it was because a dev told them too cos of how uber it was. And although the stats and abilities of the ship and DDD in question were available on multiple forums all the other alliances in eve apart from D2 and ASCN (who just happened to be the 2 other alliances in eve setup and organised enough to do so) decided not to build one right away?. You should realy get a grip on your bob obsession bud just think to yourself before you go to bed every night that your naps have taken a lot of their space now and try to release all that anger and bitterness. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:22:00 - [37] BTW, what would you all consider the turning point to be? I dimly recall (being a noob at the time) some other big things from that time besides the loss of Shrike's titan (eg, that humongous corporate theft from Evolution and maybe the formation of RSF if I understand correctly). I wonder if CCP is keeping any statistics on this war? All I know for sure is that I left for a time in September and when I came back for Trinity, BOB was on the ropes.
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:26:00 - [38] Originally by: Tasko Pal BTW, what would you all consider the turning point to be? I dimly recall (being a noob at the time) some other big things from that time besides the loss of Shrike's titan (eg, that humongous corporate theft from Evolution and maybe the formation of RSF if I understand correctly). I wonder if CCP is keeping any statistics on this war? All I know for sure is that I left for a time in September and when I came back for Trinity, BOB was on the ropes. The titan nerf allowed blobbing to be the only successful way to take and hold space, things changed almost as soon as they were screwed with. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.
Officer Seller	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:46:00 - [39] I am ex Lv and tbh Lv resist much more than bob on his respective home, Lv lose first station after 30+ day,(and not was LV station was allied station, and later become LV) where bob whit 7 titan and this new sov system who help a loth the defender, lose 2 station after first 3 day of real coalition assault on delve. Than see bob member say LV was weaker, is funny, becouse when bob face the same force on his come, they lose in 3 day instead 30 of LV, and this whithout consider LV people fight russian & co for 3 yeaR?(and many continue do it under bob, where bob is collapsed after 1. ps: i see bob only 1 time on j1v, than they evanished, they never help LV, except show theyr force one time on j1v for go away the 2nd day, but they where very very good to absorb LV corp/pilot when they left LV alone vs all the coalition.
Marko Zhang Destructive Flatulence	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:53:00 - [40] Originally by: marakor things changed almost as soon as they [titans] were screwed with. If by 'screwed with' you mean 'fixed', then I agree 100%. Or are you the one guy that plays this game that still thinks the remote doomsday was a good idea? Btw, what former BoB pet alliance were you in again? --- THE WOUNDED TIGER IS DE TIGER BEFORE IT IS WOUNDED
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:04:00 - [41] Edited by: marakor on 19/02/2008 19:10:46 Edited by: marakor on 19/02/2008 19:10:17 Originally by: Marko Zhang Originally by: marakor The titan nerf allowed blobbing to be the only successful way to take and hold space, things changed almost as soon as they were screwed with. If by 'screwed with' you mean 'fixed', then I agree 100%. Or are you the one guy that plays this game that still thinks the remote doomsday was a good idea? Btw, what former BoB pet alliance were you in again? I was in lv then fatal for a very short time and well before lv got pwned, until i joined tri and helped remove all the bob pets including fatal from branch, you should realy check your dates before you start claiming im a bitter ex-bob/pet/whatever. PS : the DDD remote or otherwise is useless against capital ships and i still think that it should take capital ships to take sov and kill posses. And the titan was nerfed not fixed as it worked exactly how it was designed to do. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.
SwordofBaffled Amarr No Joy Corp	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:26:00 - [42] Edited by: SwordofBaffled on 19/02/2008 19:26:54 Thanks for the replies Witty and Hardin. These resources are definitely sufficient to just give a basic rundown of events. One question: what battle or event would you guys call the turning point of the war, or a representation of it? Obviously this is subject to interpretation, but I'm wondering what event marked the collapse of BoB's territorial empire (when it began to lose regions so rapidly starting from Omist and such). EDIT: I'm not implying that BoB is spiralling to its demise. I'm just asking at about what time BoB lost its presence in southeastern Eve.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:55:00 - [43] I wanted to stick this in the EVE-History wiki but I can't face all the formatting atm so it'll have to do here for now. The Northern Coalition point of view always seems to go unwritten in these things so I'll do the honours and drop a text wall. I'll doubtless get some criticism for being too loose lipped but this stuff happened over a year ago now and I think it's interesting to see how EVE got where it is. It is of course my own analysis of highly complex events from a very limited personal perspective, not gospel truth or even particularly fact based because it's a high level abstraction of events. April 2006 for me marks the moment when the foundations of The Great War were dug. BoB rolled the most powerful fleet EVE had ever seen into EC-P8R and sieged TRUST's capital yards (TRUST had just produced the first mothership in EVE and claimed to be a strictly neutral industrial alliance but BoB viewed them as G allies.) It was the first time BoB's capital fleet had been unveiled in itÆs full glory (~25-30 dreads?) and they came with non-cap support from major alliances from all over the map, ASCN, 5, F-E, AXE chiefly if I remember correctly. It was a massive show of strength, and a statement of how they intended to play things in the 'Capital Age'. It sent shockwaves around EVE because of it's sheer brutalness. BoB were clearly far in the lead in the capital game, had a strong block of willing allies and were going to do their best to mercilessly obliterate any potential titan build sites. Prior to this G/IRON and BoB had been exchanging blows for ages but it never amounted to much. EC-P8R raised the stakes massively. It also marked, in my opinion, the moment EVE politics went global and (controversially perhaps, especially given their size then vs. later) the height of BoB influence. The powerblock they created lasted only a week, but they showed they could and would use such powerblocks. Thus G had to respond. This also marked the month DICE (re)joined BoB. Elsewhere LV power was seriously on the rise as they led a collection of regional alliances against RA who's days were looking numbered. Although I don't think LV showed up in EC-P8R they were known to be blue with BoB. In short, for anti-BoB folk, things looked very bleak. Note that at this point it was not 'BoB and pets' but 'BoB and several very large self sufficient alliances'. ASCN and LV were viewed as superpowers by this point. Not much 'Great' was going to happen just yet. Capital fleets were still a bit too small (even BoB's) to do any serious sustained multi-region damage, but in the north we certainly saw the War appear on the horizon and began preparing. A cold war phase began, if you like. BoB were THE global threat. Opposing them was necessary if you wanted to wield any remotely significant power in EVE. It didn't take a genius to see a new military and diplomatic doctrine was needed especially for traditionally solitary alliances (which G and RAWR certainly were at least). Critics call the doctrine a napfest. I see powerblocks as an inevitable result of changes in game mechanics. Another popular argument is that it's all BoB's fault for playing EVE in 'Total War' mode and when they're purged conflict will become local again. I'm not pretending there was a northern masterplan or anything (there wasn't even a barbeque to my knowledge ). Just a kind of inevitable adaption to the circumstances brought into sharp focus by EC-P8R. ...
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:55:00 - [44] G and TRUST merged to form D2 and with IRON, RZR, RAWR and a few smaller transient alliances forged a powerblock, rapidly conquered the north (most of which was somewhat weakly held at the time) and dug in with pretty much the sole goal of surviving when BoB came. Going on the offensive against them was hardly mooted. Every scenario seemed to need us to have a home advantage to stand a chance. The plan was passive containment of BoB's influence rather than active destruction of BoB, which looked impossible. The fact that TCF proved so difficult to shift from Tribute when they invaded only reinforced the sense of futility of attacking BoB, given pre-capital hitpoint boost game mechanics, lag and BoB's growing pet army. So we waited, and tried to use the time to strengthen our position (and in truth drifted a lot). You could say the North were the only participants in our own private Great War at this point and were trying to delay BoB's entry to it as long as possible. Alternatively BoB started the war, we entered it covertly and started building our fortress hoping BoB wouldn't notice. Regardless, other powerblocks were forming and no doubt predicted something of the Great War looming too. The Goon-RA alliance blueprint certainly had at it's heart a mutual red list consisting of BoB and BoB allies. Thus the northern and southern coalitions formed indepently but with similar goals and for similar reasons. These reasons, at this point, had nothing to do with dev controversy, or bandwaggoning. They had everything to do with survival in a BoB dominated galaxy and past injustices. BoB was a bit sleepy through this period. They retook Querious when FIX nearly lost it, further cementing their pet model, but not much else noteworthy until they attacked ASCN at the very end of September. They'd compared ASCN and D2 and decided the former was the bigger threat, but vowed to deal with D2 next. At this point the North perhaps could have joined forces with ASCN but I think didn't really feel it would achieve much and in any case no one trusted ASCN. They were tainted by being former BoB allies and could easily revert back if BoB was threatened and thus decided to sweet talk and/or bully ASCN back to mutual blue status. By the end of 2006 ASCN was history. The North braced for impact. Sure enough after BoB had less than a month's rest the wardecs arrived from MC, SirMolle claimed responsibility and DICE quickly joined them. It was probably a combined softening up exercise and an assessment of the North's capability before fully committing. After several weeks we learned that BoB was talking to LV about a joint attack on the north. This focused attention on the south east, which was until now an entirely separate conflict that few in the north cared too much about. RSF was now having success against LV and (a diminishing number of) friends. But it still looked like an isolated conflict that would ebb and flow, just as it had for the past 18 months. But it didn't. The LV 'failure cascade' kicked in, they requested help from BoB. BoB reassessed, saw a future where RSF were not contained and again bumped D2 down the threat list in favour of another target. In the north it finally seemed we had an opportunity, after all this time, to hurt BoB. Since our plans shifted from defence to offense literally overnight, the northern mobilization took a bit of time. LV died fast anyway and BoB were home before we damaged anything important in their home. But the LV/RSF war had gone global, the BoB/North cold war had gone hot, and the two conflicts irrevocably became one. _
Baxalusx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:13:00 - [45] Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 19/02/2008 17:28:09 Originally by: Baxalusx You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost Given CCP's demonstrably tendency to make new ships overpowered, you might want to start questioning the leadership of "Most major" alliances.. There is a reason you need all those NAP's to survive.. If CCP has a demonstrable tendency to make new ships overpowered, thoth, then please demonstrate it or stop using words you don't understand. There is a good reason most major alliances had written off titans for military application: Oveur had stated they would be "flying stations", and even your own alliance's dread fleet was still in heavy development at the time, so the question is: Where did BoB get information about titans that convinced them to blow over 120b for the first on the off-chance that they would be useful, especially with a supposedly planned major war coming up? And why does none of this information appear in the leaks of your forum? --------- ~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~
Marko Zhang Destructive Flatulence	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:31:00 - [46] nice writeup Blazde --- THE WOUNDED TIGER IS DE TIGER BEFORE IT IS WOUNDED
Trepkos PAK	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:35:00 - [47] I can't believe no one mentioned the F-T battle, the biggest absolute failure of a operation in the history of EVE. I mean seriously, 50+ capital ships and assorted other ships lost for no real kills on nothing but a unintelligible hunch? They didn't even destroy the right POS. -------- Recruit Me
marakor Gallente Anti Lag Forum Smackers	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:51:00 - [48] Edited by: marakor on 19/02/2008 20:52:12 Originally by: Baxalusx There is a good reason most major alliances had written off titans for military application. Actualy ASCN, BOB and D2 built titans as they were at the time the most and best organised to do so are you saying that D2 and ASCN got told to buld em by DEVS as well?. Originally by: Baxalusx Where did BoB get information about titans that convinced them to blow over 120b for the first. The ASCN titan was the first built and unvieled perhaps you should ask old ASCN members what "convinced them to blow over 120b for the first". Originally by: Baxalusx And why does none of this information appear in the leaks of your forum? Perhaps because the information and the proof of all this crap your spouting exists only in your paranoid and bob obsessed little mind?. HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve.
Necro EvilZombie North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:48:00 - [49] no one has even mentioned the BPO scandal or the subsequent bannings that took place...this is pretty much why PL is in the war. -------------------------------------------------------------- .
Orangir GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:56:00 - [50] Our wiki has a pretty good writeup but obviously it's biased and I'm too lazy to copy/paste it for you. Maybe somebody else will feel generous and do it. The first BoB guy posted a fairly accurate quick write up but all of the other stuff they've posted is biased/false garbage. The CVA one was ok too but had a lot of misinformation in it. Your best bet would be to get a writeup from an alliance guy and a coalition guy and go from there.
Tilta GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:16:00 - [51] Originally by: Baxalusx Originally by: thoth foc Given CCP's demonstrably tendency to make new ships overpowered, you might want to start questioning the leadership of "Most major" alliances.. If CCP has a demonstrable tendency to make new ships overpowered, thoth, then please demonstrate it or stop using words you don't understand. There is a good reason most major alliances had written off titans for military application: Oveur had stated they would be "flying stations", and even your own alliance's dread fleet was still in heavy development at the time, so the question is: Where did BoB get information about titans that convinced them to blow over 120b for the first on the off-chance that they would be useful, especially with a supposedly planned major war coming up? And why does none of this information appear in the leaks of your forum? Let me help! - Logistics cruisers - Stealth bombers People denying that ASCN/D2 built titans just because they were major industrial undertakings and that's just what the richer groups of both alliances do are in denial. If there was a new capital mining ship today that doubled the output of every hulk in gang and cost 5 trillion isk to make, they'd build them just to say they did, too.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:16:00 - [52] Originally by: Trepkos I can't believe no one mentioned the F-T battle, the biggest absolute failure of a operation in the history of EVE. I mean seriously, 50+ capital ships and assorted other ships lost for no real kills on nothing but a unintelligible hunch? They didn't even destroy the right POS. An intelligence failure, yes. Isk-wise, too. But from a military/moral point of view, it was more of a draw. Bob+MC+allies inflicted a lot of damage, which they wanted to do more than save their pos, and the Coalition managed to destroy the POS defended by Bob which wsa their only objective. ------------------------------------------
Evil Thug Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:28:00 - [53] Originally by: Trepkos I can't believe no one mentioned the F-T battle, the biggest absolute failure of a operation in the history of EVE. I mean seriously, 50+ capital ships and assorted other ships lost for no real kills on nothing but a unintelligible hunch? They didn't even destroy the right POS. Do you understand, that this was first case of developers closing entire constellation ?
Zorland Minmatar Detinus Republic	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:36:00 - [54] Originally by: Gloomy Gus As a matter of fact I did a short history of this very war a long time ago and repoasted it the other day so I have it handy here you go (this starts with "We're stealing your targets Chow"): We gritted our teeth at first, it was rougher than we'd anticipated and we really hadn't expected them to come from that direction. Slowly however over time we came to welcome the new sensations of our defenses' being penetrated so deeply. Their titans were then unstoppable and we were battered over and over, their fleets moving in and out of our borders at will. After a while we got used to the rhythm of things, and begin to move our fleets to take advantage of the friction and indeed groove with the flow. You can only fire a doomsday so often however, and between shots there's plenty of time to recover and heal. After Bein Glorious' long boring treatise their titans became limp and pretty soon the pillar of their fleet was flaccid. After the violent end of one such pillar this threat became soft and they seemed far less eager than in the past. Slowly the lumbering armies turned around, and as soon as the RSF had their hands on the shoulders of the GBC things began moving in the other direction. While the Russians and their massive titans began breaking down BoB's brittle internal barriers, the TCF and Goons and all of their other allies begin filling all other available holes in the GBC's defenses. BoB's cries slowly became more and more muffled as they lost traction under the press of so many eager participants, and their mouthpieces were chocked off with the flood of fofofo until only an occasional pained gasp could be heard on CAOD. Now their forces huddle broken and bleeding on the cold tile floor of the shower that is Delve, clutching themselves and wondering who to blame and why this happened to them. Had they been too provocative? Was it the armor of their ships, did it not cover enough therefore inviting others to take advantage? Would things have been different if they hadn't been walking in 0.0 after dark? No, not really. You whined to CCP to nerf supercapital ships especially titans the same why you whine about fighters and carriers now. So yeah, you whine is your best weapon, don't stop using it.
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:46:00 - [55] Originally by: Evil Thug Originally by: Trepkos I can't believe no one mentioned the F-T battle, the biggest absolute failure of a operation in the history of EVE. I mean seriously, 50+ capital ships and assorted other ships lost for no real kills on nothing but a unintelligible hunch? They didn't even destroy the right POS. Do you understand, that this was first case of developers closing entire constellation ? CCP have vehemently denied there was any limit applied to F-T which, seeing as they allowed one of their developers to tarnish everything we'd ever done because of their (and his) own failures I'm inclined to believe them - it's pretty obvious those that control the flow of this type of information certainly are NOT on "our" side, ET. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.02.19 22:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Baxalusx Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 19/02/2008 17:28:09 Originally by: Baxalusx You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost Given CCP's demonstrably tendency to make new ships overpowered, you might want to start questioning the leadership of "Most major" alliances.. There is a reason you need all those NAP's to survive.. If CCP has a demonstrable tendency to make new ships overpowered, thoth, then please demonstrate it or stop using words you don't understand. There is a good reason most major alliances had written off titans for military application: Oveur had stated they would be "flying stations", and even your own alliance's dread fleet was still in heavy development at the time, so the question is: Where did BoB get information about titans that convinced them to blow over 120b for the first on the off-chance that they would be useful, especially with a supposedly planned major war coming up? And why does none of this information appear in the leaks of your forum? Dear Baxalusx, let me introduce you to tech 2 ships.. alot have much the same types of roles as their tech 1 equivalents, but are overpowered versions them.. this is intentional game design, to encourage the use of these ships.. we could also mention the recent carrier & MS changes.. Balancing issues are the bane of game design.. In the end 120 billion isnt a lot for any alliance to risk for a ships with a "doomsday" weapon.. given that, that includes the BPO which isnt lost in building and that most major alliances at the time had capital yards and component building in place.. game inflation would ensure that the BPO would be useful/valuable at some point no matter what.. and if the ship turned out to be useless initially, the BPO could go into research until the player base whined at CCP enough to make a 120 bill ship useful.. it really isn't surprising that CCP didn't want to create a 120 bill isk paper weight... ASCN had the foresight to build 1 too.. the most ambushious alliances were heavily investing in all caps production.. at least 1 titan was an obvious extention to that.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Alaxen Caldari A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:03:00 - [57] Bob's entire strategy was doomed to failure right from the start. Empire building by going on a rampage across the known expanse is quite simply a flawed approach. You only have to look at real world examples like Napoleon and the Axis[1] to realise this. Bob went out on their own, using their allies when it suited them, and turning their back on them when it didn't. There was lots of going backwards and forwards throughout the war but what it boils down to is simply the way they went about it. If they had set themselves up as the guardians of the galaxy rather than the masters of it then they probably would have fared a lot better. Their approach was just too blatant and lacked any kind of subtlety; in a very simple, but quite overused expression - arrogance. The rise and fall of Bob from a philosophical point of view. [1]By Axis I mean 'you-know-who' with a little moustache and funny haircut, but the H word and N word appear to be banned.
Baxalusx GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:32:00 - [58] Originally by: thoth foc Originally by: Baxalusx Originally by: thoth foc Edited by: thoth foc on 19/02/2008 17:28:09 Originally by: Baxalusx You seem to have grasped the gist of my post: Most major alliances at the time had written off Titans for the short to medium term future due to perceived lack of benefit for the cost Given CCP's demonstrably tendency to make new ships overpowered, you might want to start questioning the leadership of "Most major" alliances.. There is a reason you need all those NAP's to survive.. If CCP has a demonstrable tendency to make new ships overpowered, thoth, then please demonstrate it or stop using words you don't understand. There is a good reason most major alliances had written off titans for military application: Oveur had stated they would be "flying stations", and even your own alliance's dread fleet was still in heavy development at the time, so the question is: Where did BoB get information about titans that convinced them to blow over 120b for the first on the off-chance that they would be useful, especially with a supposedly planned major war coming up? And why does none of this information appear in the leaks of your forum? Dear Baxalusx, let me introduce you to tech 2 ships.. alot have much the same types of roles as their tech 1 equivalents, but are overpowered versions them.. this is intentional game design, to encourage the use of these ships.. we could also mention the recent carrier & MS changes.. Balancing issues are the bane of game design.. In the end 120 billion isnt a lot for any alliance to risk for a ships with a "doomsday" weapon.. given that, that includes the BPO which isnt lost in building and that most major alliances at the time had capital yards and component building in place.. game inflation would ensure that the BPO would be useful/valuable at some point no matter what.. and if the ship turned out to be useless initially, the BPO could go into research until the player base whined at CCP enough to make a 120 bill ship useful.. it really isn't surprising that CCP didn't want to create a 120 bill isk paper weight... ASCN had the foresight to build 1 too.. the most ambushious alliances were heavily investing in all caps production.. at least 1 titan was an obvious extention to that.. From your first paragraph, it should by now be obvious to anyone that you have a flawed concept of what "overpowered" means (your incorrect definition appears to be "something that is better than another of the same type", while the common definition in an MMOG context is "a) something that is too good compared to the effort going into obtaining/using it, b) something too far above the existing power glass ceiling, c) something uncounterable"), so I'll leave that part of the argument there. As I already explained, in hindsight, investing in titans was a good idea -- the question is what led BoB to do it when every other alliance interpreted the relatively clear developer signals (Oveur did write in no uncertain terms that they were not intended to be combat ships) as titans being support/logistics ships, and the question is also what the correlation between your capfleet commander being a developer and your unexplainably well informed decision to invest a large amount of capital in titans at a very peculiar time was. In short, your replies have so far consisted entirely of unsubstantiated rubbish. --------- ~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~
thoth foc Arcane Technologies The Five	Posted - 2008.02.19 23:53:00 - [59] Originally by: Baxalusx From your first paragraph, it should by now be obvious to anyone that you have a flawed concept of what "overpowered" means (your incorrect definition appears to be "something that is better than another of the same type", while the common definition in an MMOG context is "a) something that is too good compared to the effort going into obtaining/using it, b) something too far above the existing power glass ceiling, c) something uncounterable"), so I'll leave that part of the argument there. The only one of you own definitions that defines a titans as over powered on, was ease of use.. but then most t2 ships with extreme/expensive setups are the same.. even some faction BS.. The main problem with titans was that the best counter for them was player skill, whereas most players prefer to blame someone else when they die.. _________________________ xMenta (DSMA) xBOS (CA) ATUK (.5.) DICE (BOB) xElcyion Lacar
Scavok UA Industry Red Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.20 00:27:00 - [60] Edited by: Scavok on 20/02/2008 00:27:31 Originally by: thoth foc The main problem with titans was that the best counter for them was player skill, whereas most players prefer to blame someone else when they die.. What skill is that? Taking advantage of broken game mechanics to unknowingly aggro the pilots? No really, BoB never faced a competent titan pilot while they were unkillable, it's not something you ever had to deal with. I don't blame you for not understanding. If the only titan pilot we ever went up against was Chowdown I would completely agree with you. We rolled over the entirety of LV space without ever really losing a fleet to him, and it wasn't from lack of trying. Once we met Shrike and OS it was a different story and the game was clearly broken.

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