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thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2008.02.20 00:43:00 -
[61]
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 00:43:41
 Originally by: Scavok
Edited by: Scavok on 20/02/2008 00:27:31
Originally by: thoth foc
The main problem with titans was that the best counter for them was player skill, whereas most players prefer to blame someone else when they die..
No really, BoB never faced a competent titan pilot while they were unkillable
Feel free to tell ET how he should have flown better..
basic ship control skills like aligning and scanning helps counter titan pilots very effectively...
_________________________
xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
ATUK (.5.)
DICE (BOB)
xElcyion Lacar
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Kaldaine
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.20 01:20:00 -
[62]
Originally by: thoth foc
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 00:43:41
Originally by: Scavok
Edited by: Scavok on 20/02/2008 00:27:31
Originally by: thoth foc
The main problem with titans was that the best counter for them was player skill, whereas most players prefer to blame someone else when they die..
No really, BoB never faced a competent titan pilot while they were unkillable
Feel free to tell ET how he should have flown better..
basic ship control skills like aligning and scanning helps counter titan pilots very effectively...
Those skills help nowadays but when titans could remote DD they were pretty useless. The only defense needed in a system under siege was a large bubble and a cyno frig on a gate. Any lag generated at all by attacking dreads or pilots nullified the ability of reinforcements to join in. BoB could lock down the 77S area with a 20 man hac gang and Shrike no matter how many pilots we had available pre-nerf. Why you would want to do this if you just want "good fights" is beyond me. The proof that CCP did the right thing was that after the titan nerf there were quite a few posts from BoB stating how much fun they had been having post patch.
Anyways we probably wont get all that much better than Witty Monikers post as its got almost all the major points. When the war really started depends on your perspective. To goons it started in Syndicate. A lot of time and debate can be spent hashing out all the tiny details like who won what irrelevant engagement, k/d ratio, k/d pos ratio etc. Fortunately I am certain that Goonswarm and BoB arent nearly petty enough for that.
The thing that really impresses me is that when we first arrived in Insmother we had about 1 dread, several carriers and barely enough POS to cover a single system.
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari
Bladerunners
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.20 02:39:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 20/02/2008 02:40:43
Originally by: Blazde
Stuff
Bloody hell dude. I admit I've yet to read Hardin's account but yours is the best reading I've seen on CAOD for a LONG time. Are you a journalist in RL by any chance?
Anyway thanks a lot for those 2 awesome posts ;)
I joined the game in April 2006 and soon heard about the "EC-" incident and (along with many other new players) was both in awe and fear of this new superpower called "BoB".
My decision to become a merc and my love of the Mordus Legion backstory took me to |Pure Blind, where I joined a corp with a long history going back to the first "Great Northern War".
From that point on, even though I bear them no personal antipathy and still respect their obvious PvP prowess, I became a footsoldier on the side of the anti-BoB forces, which is where I have remained until today.
This war truly is epic. It's been a privilege to be part of it (however small).
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Trepkos
PAK
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Posted - 2008.02.20 02:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Evil Thug
Originally by: Trepkos
I can't believe no one mentioned the F-T battle, the biggest absolute failure of a operation in the history of EVE.
I mean seriously, 50+ capital ships and assorted other ships lost for no real kills on nothing but a unintelligible hunch? They didn't even destroy the right POS.
Do you understand, that this was first case of developers closing entire constellation ?
Do you understand that this affected both sides and not just yours?
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Cletus Graeme
Caldari
Bladerunners
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.02.20 03:01:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 20/02/2008 03:06:05
Edited by: Cletus Graeme on 20/02/2008 03:03:12
Originally by: Alaxen
Their [BoB's] approach was just too blatant and lacked any kind of subtlety; in a very simple, but quite overused expression - arrogance.
The rise and fall of Bob from a philosophical point of view. 
[1]By Axis I mean 'you-know-who' with a little moustache and funny haircut, but the H word and N word appear to be banned.
It's funny you mention WW2 cos I see a lot of parallels with that war and this one.
Just like Germany back then, BoB was better organised, disciplined and skilled than their enemies but they also had the same arrogant superiority complex which led people to ally against them.
They also had the same mixture of weak (FIX) & strong (LV) allies whom they intially helped but later abandoned as the forces against them grew larger.
Just like in WW2 you see alliances being made between former enemies who put aside their differences to fight a common foe.
If you stretch the comparison even further you could see the Goons as the USA, RA as Russia and the Northern Forces (RZR/IRON/MM/BRUCE and friends) as the remainder of "free" europe.
BoB are now (like Germany towards the end of WW2) defending their "Fatherland" from the "allied" advance.
How long they will last is anybody's guess, but don't be at all surprised if, after they fall, the "allies" (i.e the coalition forces in game) quickly become enemies again.
For such is "global" politics....
EDIT: Obviously, the above comparisons do not extend to the horrors committed by the German regime at the time. So I do apologise in advance if anyone is offended by my analogy but I still think it's a good one :P
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Rainbow Jesus
Minmatar
Grief Tactics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2008.02.20 03:26:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Rainbow Jesus on 20/02/2008 03:33:50
i give up...
ww2 comparisons 4tl
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Merkava 5
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.20 03:52:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Merkava 5 on 20/02/2008 03:54:07
Edited by: Merkava 5 on 20/02/2008 03:53:32
Originally by: Scavok
Edited by: Scavok on 20/02/2008 00:27:31
Originally by: thoth foc
The main problem with titans was that the best counter for them was player skill, whereas most players prefer to blame someone else when they die..
What skill is that? Taking advantage of broken game mechanics to unknowingly aggro the pilots?
No really, BoB never faced a competent titan pilot while they were unkillable, it's not
something you ever had to deal with. I don't blame you for not understanding. If the only titan pilot we ever went up against was Chowdown I would completely agree with you. We rolled over the entirety of LV space without ever really losing a fleet to him, and it wasn't from lack of trying.
Once we met Shrike and OS it was a different story and the game was clearly broken.
Scavok you liar,i saw sevral times how chow vaporized fleets, once you met shirke and OS "the game was clearly broken", you couldnt handle it and cryed for a nerf.
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Tilta
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.20 04:25:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Merkava 5
Edited by: Merkava 5 on 20/02/2008 04:04:33
Edited by: Merkava 5 on 20/02/2008 03:54:07
Edited by: Merkava 5 on 20/02/2008 03:53:32
At one point the quoted poster was talking about all the crying we did about the many fleets Chowdown allegedly vapourized. Perhaps he fact-checked.
On our (likely not 100% complete) killboard, he killed 30 goon BS after getting the titan in January. On BoB's, after joining around May, around 50 hostile BS across all alliances.
I'll give you credit for maybe two whole fleets with those kills, in more than a calendar year. Of course, unlike Shrike & Orange Species, he wasn't account sharing nonstop, so its destructive potential always was more in line with D2 & ASCN's experiences.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.02.20 05:06:00 -
[69]
This thread is full of spin because the war is ongoing, and every group involved has an interest in getting their story out.
Anyone whose honestly interested in the truth should just wait and hope someone is going to write a neutral report after. Even if you wrote one now that was accurate, people would not accept it easily. Many are still using false pretenses to engage in combat, and there's also a lot of stuff you've never heard on CAOD.
A good example would be the F-TE1T thing, and since I still had this on my PC, I'm going to upload it to my host.
Its a Coalition Command meeting the night before the assault; mostly Evil Thug doing the talking. This was never posted, or mentioned on CAOD at the time it happened, because the methods for obtaining it were being used for a while after that. Its very long and boring, summary for the lazy:
- We don't really know whats in this POS, but RKK directors are freaking out
- If our dreadnaughts go into this system they will all die because BoB are friends with developers
- To save our dreads we will jump in everyone and crash the node
Right Click > Save As
I think it should be filed away somewhere on eve-history, since that last line influenced the entire defensive strategy of keeping local numbers down as much as possible to prevent node death. It also created repercussions in later strategies.
There are other good examples. One of the best out there concerns Remedial writing a letter stating Goons would move back to Syndicate. At the same time BoB was finally running into a wall with logistics, and didn't have the momentum to take advantage of this. Both sides got caught with low stamina, and the war stalled long enough for both sides to pick back up again.
_______________________________
http://epicwords.net/ |
SwordofBaffled
Amarr
No Joy Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.20 05:20:00 -
[70]
Thanks for the constructive replies. Although this thread has been tainted and warped by the strife of politicking, I think it is very insightful to observers as an amalgamation of perspectives. I hope this thread will be useful to those who do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past.
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DigitalCommunist
Obsidian Core
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Posted - 2008.02.20 05:30:00 -
[71]
I honestly think this is one war where neither side really made a massive mistake. Both goaded each other to an extraordinary level, and both wanted it very badly.
Unlike the ASCN, FA, and PA wars that BoB was involved in, this is the first big war where the enemy is trying to win by staying aggressive - and not simply outliving by attrition and boredom. That makes it the best in my opinion.
Besides, if mistakes are made, its because people new to EVE will continue assuming they're doing things completely different. Newbie enthusiasm is borderline arrogance, because these new players derive most of their fun from just playing the game. They have no time to be reading long winded histories to understand what they could be doing better or smarter.
I personally think reading real life history on military campaigns gives you an advantage over other newbies in EVE. Even if the context is different, it gves you thinking on the macro level and brainstorming similar ideas.
_______________________________
http://epicwords.net/ |
Doctor Mario
LightHammer MAC
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Posted - 2008.02.20 05:55:00 -
[72]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Its very long and boring, summary for the lazy:
- We don't really know whats in this POS, but RKK directors are freaking out
- If our dreadnaughts go into this system they will all die because BoB are friends with developers
- To save our dreads we will jump in everyone and crash the node
Right Click > Save As
The link dont work :(
----
It's-a me! Mario! |
Proxay
Gallente
Fallen Angel's
Blade.
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Posted - 2008.02.20 06:07:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Proxay on 20/02/2008 06:08:10
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
I honestly think this is one war where neither side really made a massive mistake. Both goaded each other to an extraordinary level, and both wanted it very badly.
Unlike the ASCN, FA, and PA wars that BoB was involved in, this is the first big war where the enemy is trying to win by staying aggressive - and not simply outliving by attrition and boredom. That makes it the best in my opinion.
Besides, if mistakes are made, its because people new to EVE will continue assuming they're doing things completely different. Newbie enthusiasm is borderline arrogance, because these new players derive most of their fun from just playing the game. They have no time to be reading long winded histories to understand what they could be doing better or smarter.
I personally think reading real life history on military campaigns gives you an advantage over other newbies in EVE. Even if the context is different, it gves you thinking on the macro level and brainstorming similar ideas.
It's also worthwhile to note, to win a battle, you must win it not only on the field, but in the hearts and minds of the people you're fighting against. You don't stand much of a chance in a long-winded battle where neither side of neutrals is sure who to support when both sides seem as bad as each other, and eventually if they do pick a side, or create their own, it complicates matters and makes your goals harder to achieve.
Looking at NOL and its situation, I fear to say the coalition was too hasty to attempt to "end" the war, and this is creating the perception that despite the best spin and propaganda efforts, bob is still very much alive, and kicking. Not only that, but able to repel a hostile invasion force, and keep them out, day, after day, after day, even with the numbers stacked heavily against them, their member base has barely shifted at all.
Each side is picking holes, and exploiting weaknesses, bob is limited in size, and is clustered together so weaknesses are harder to exploit, and find. The next few weeks will be interesting to say the least, and could very well present an unusual twist.
Edit: The numbers and its stability is taken from a very neutral source (Outpost alert)
If you're going to remove a signature, at least make sure it's got something that breaks the EULA, k-ta. |
EL TITAN
Caldari
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 06:19:00 -
[74]
i dont think that link works digi, i downloaded the mp3 file but it was only 5kb long and didnt play.
--------------------------------------------
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.20 08:44:00 -
[75]
Originally by: thoth foc
commonsense... support/logistics is crucial to any fleet..
You're speaking in a tactical context, while everyone else is talking strategy. Honestly, the main problem in this argument seems to be that you aren't on the level; why do I consistently need to dumb down what I say for you not to misunderstand it? I don't leave much room for ambiguity in these long winded sentences.
---------
~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 10:07:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Baxalusx
Originally by: thoth foc
commonsense... support/logistics is crucial to any fleet..
You're speaking in a tactical context, while everyone else is talking strategy. Honestly, the main problem in this argument seems to be that you aren't on the level; why do I consistently need to dumb down what I say for you not to misunderstand it? I don't leave much room for ambiguity in these long winded sentences.
The main problem in this arguement is you are desperately trying to use something that is perfectly sensible as propaganda.. and you have having to stretch arguements to cover the obvious flaws.. you have wrote paragraphs and failed to answer the obvious reply to your "why build it?" question.. "why not?"
You come from a group used to playing safe.. you are looking for a 100% reason for something that could just be as simple as, Molle wanted to play with the biggest ship in game..
CCP make everything useful at some point, it is how they make sure addicted players keep having skills to play.. even if the titans hadnt been immediately useful, it was 100% sure they would be at some point.. and it's better to be prepared early than late.. as you might at some point in this discussion, realise..
_________________________
xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
ATUK (.5.)
DICE (BOB)
xElcyion Lacar
|
Doctor Oda
Domination.
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 10:29:00 -
[77]
Originally by: SPQRMocton
Heres a run down for you,
BoB started up very early in eve and as soon as they could they started smacking anyone around who would let them
Eventually they had smacked enough people around long enough that the smackees were almost as tough as the smackers
Now the smackees had enough of being smackees and have turned into the smackers and BoB is the smackee.
If you have any questions ask a bob why they have 20 000 enemies maybe they can explain better
YOU FAIL AT SMACK
THE FAILED INVADERS HAVE HAD TO CLUB TOGETHER TO STAND A CHANCE AGAINST BOB AND THEY ARE FAILING AT THAT.
YOU SUCK AT THIS INTERNET SPACE SHIPS SMACK TALK TBH
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 12:20:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Baxalusx on 20/02/2008 12:21:43
Originally by: thoth foc
Originally by: Baxalusx
Originally by: thoth foc
commonsense... support/logistics is crucial to any fleet..
You're speaking in a tactical context, while everyone else is talking strategy. Honestly, the main problem in this argument seems to be that you aren't on the level; why do I consistently need to dumb down what I say for you not to misunderstand it? I don't leave much room for ambiguity in these long winded sentences.
The main problem in this arguement is you are desperately trying to use something that is perfectly sensible as propaganda.. and you have having to stretch arguements to cover the obvious flaws.. you have wrote paragraphs and failed to answer the obvious reply to your "why build it?" question.. "why not?"
You come from a group used to playing safe.. you are looking for a 100% reason for something that could just be as simple as, Molle wanted to play with the biggest ship in game..
CCP make everything useful at some point, it is how they make sure addicted players keep having skills to play.. even if the titans hadnt been immediately useful, it was 100% sure they would be at some point.. and it's better to be prepared early than late.. as you might at some point in this discussion, realise..
Yet another reply from thoth with no relevance or substantiating arguments whatsoever? Color me surprised. 
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. Your assertation that BoB deciding to invest heavily into Titans immediately before a large planned war being perfectly sensible fails, because that is not perfectly sensible based on the information and possible deductions I've proposed in this thread. Additionally, I have demonstrated probable cause to suspect foul play in the process leading up to that decision, probable cause that you have also failed to explain.
You are, demonstrably (and now demonstratedly), simply a long chain of failposts. Get out.
---------
~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 12:35:00 -
[79]
Edited by: marakor on 20/02/2008 12:38:52
Originally by: Baxalusx
Yet another reply from thoth with no relevance or substantiating arguments whatsoever? Color me surprised.
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. Your assertation that BoB deciding to invest heavily into Titans immediately before a large planned war being perfectly sensible fails, because that is not perfectly sensible based on the information and possible deductions I've proposed in this thread. Additionally, I have demonstrated probable cause to suspect foul play in the process leading up to that decision, probable cause that you have also failed to explain.
You are, demonstrably (and now demonstratedly), simply a long chain of failposts. Get out.
Ive seen 0 substantiating arguments from you either in fact you have contradicted your self and used misleading and untrue facts a couple of times.
In your first posts you claim that most large alliances at the time were not building titans but you ammend that by saying apart from d2 and ascn who you claim built them cos they were pretty or whatever (did you check your facts and find them to be wrong so you inserted the ascn and d2 titan so you could dismiss them, they do kinda blow you delusion away a bit dont they).
But aparantly you claim BOB on the other hand built theres "first" at the express instruction of a dev to win all the wars they were gonna fight. Now if you check your later post you actualy ignore the fact that d2 and ascn were buildsing any and claim that all the other alliances in eve did not bother and BOB went into mass production ffs.
QUOTE;
Originally by: Baxalusx
As I already explained, in hindsight, investing in titans was a good idea -- the question is what led BoB to do it when every other alliance interpreted the relatively clear developer signals (Oveur did write in no uncertain terms that they were not intended to be combat ships) as titans being support/logistics ships.
FACT. Not every other alliance pal cos ascn built the first titan not bob and D2 had one in the cooker as well.
All you can prove is that t20 was part of bob and that bob was one of the first ppl to have a titan and not even the first to have one as you want ppl to believe. The rest of you post is either pure exageration, lies or paranoid delusion.
HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve. |
Fitz Chivalry
eXceed Inc.
eXceed.
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:05:00 -
[80]
The main reason ASCN built the titan was to be the first to have built the titan, same way we were first to build an outpost.
ASCN was primarily interested in building an empire in 0.0 sim-city style and had zero interest in getting into any drawn out fights as the bob "war" clearly demonstrated. It was pretty clear from the way Steve was (not) used in the war that no real thought had gone into the actual operation of the titan.
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NeoTheo
Final Conflict UK
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:07:00 -
[81]
this has been a excellent read, wow, on this forum as well! :)
I really enjoyed all the accounts i have read so far.
/Theo
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marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:14:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
The main reason ASCN built the titan was to be the first to have built the titan, same way we were first to build an outpost.
ASCN was primarily interested in building an empire in 0.0 sim-city style and had zero interest in getting into any drawn out fights as the bob "war" clearly demonstrated. It was pretty clear from the way Steve was (not) used in the war that no real thought had gone into the actual operation of the titan.
The fact that you were a bunch of self proclaimed sim city carebears is hardy what i would consider conclusive proof that BOB's titan was a huge dev hax conspiracy as mr paranoid would have us believe.
BOB was a pure war machine at the time at least as warlike as you were carebear so ofcourse they think of every ship in the game in as potential weapon most pure pvp alliances do just as you saw it as a project to show your building might. Especialy for those who at the time were looking at terratorial warfare and as we know cap ships ruled that part of warfare at the time.
HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve. |
Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:28:00 -
[83]
I think it's a bit silly to claim that a single developer did all the thinking for BOB. There's plenty of evidence to indicate to me that BOB has had top military talent for years. And it's absurd to claim that they couldn't figure out how to use the titan's DD without the help of a developer. As I see it, BOB was the only alliance in the early days of the titan both with the necessary industrial base, the intent to build a titan, and the skill/experience to understand the implications of the DD and the titan's other abilities.
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:39:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Baxalusx on 20/02/2008 13:40:48
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
The main reason ASCN built the titan was to be the first to have built the titan, same way we were first to build an outpost.
ASCN was primarily interested in building an empire in 0.0 sim-city style and had zero interest in getting into any drawn out fights as the bob "war" clearly demonstrated. It was pretty clear from the way Steve was (not) used in the war that no real thought had gone into the actual operation of the titan.
The fact that you were a bunch of self proclaimed sim city carebears is hardy what i would consider conclusive proof that BOB's titan was a huge dev hax conspiracy as mr paranoid would have us believe.
BOB was a pure war machine at the time at least as warlike as you were carebear so ofcourse they think of every ship in the game in as potential weapon most pure pvp alliances do just as you saw it as a project to show your building might. Especialy for those who at the time were looking at terratorial warfare and as we know cap ships ruled that part of warfare at the time.
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. What part of this do you not understand? If you look at the arguments as isolated cases, we have:
- BoB had a corrupt developer as their capfleet commander (this is a matter of historical fact).
- BoB built a Titan with military application in mind. As I asserted earlier and a first hand source later from ASCN confirmed for ASCN (and which I have been told by D2 leadership in my dealings with them as a GS director, though that part is obviously up to your own judgment), D2 and ASCN built their Titans primarily to show off industrial capacity.
Now, combine them and add another pecular fact,
- BoB have from day one used their Titan to with great efficiency, their application seeing little change except when the big nerf hit.
Now, of course, I recognize the possibility that BoB only not only lucked out massively on what could very well be an off-chance investment, then immediately saw the tactical potential (a potential which was the opposite of all indications up to that point) of the Titan due to sheer genius. However, I find it more plausible that BoB leadership got more than a few casual tips and tricks that allowed them to put two and two together long before they ever bought a BPO, and if you can't recognize the possibility for that given the stated facts of the case, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is really propagandizing here, hmm?
---------
~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:39:00 -
[85]
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 13:40:41
Originally by: Baxalusx
Yet another reply from thoth with no relevance or substantiating arguments whatsoever? Color me surprised.
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. Your assertation that BoB deciding to invest heavily into Titans immediately before a large planned war being perfectly sensible fails, because that is not perfectly sensible based on the information and possible deductions I've proposed in this thread. Additionally, I have demonstrated probable cause to suspect foul play in the process leading up to that decision, probable cause that you have also failed to explain.
You are, demonstrably (and now demonstratedly), simply a long chain of failposts. Get out.
mhm.. what "substantiating arguments" do you think you will get from 2 ppl speculating about something neither has any facts about.. You have suggested a theory you choose to believe.. no amount of you suggesting it, will actually make if factual.. some ppl will believe it, some wont.. welp?
The discussion is more likely to reveal the perspective of the ppl contributing than anything useful about the topic.. You think the titan project was a major decision.. I dont.. that is pretty much all you have actually demonstrated..
_________________________
xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
ATUK (.5.)
DICE (BOB)
xElcyion Lacar
|
Baxalusx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:46:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Baxalusx on 20/02/2008 13:46:53
Originally by: thoth foc
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 13:40:41
Originally by: Baxalusx
Yet another reply from thoth with no relevance or substantiating arguments whatsoever? Color me surprised.
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. Your assertation that BoB deciding to invest heavily into Titans immediately before a large planned war being perfectly sensible fails, because that is not perfectly sensible based on the information and possible deductions I've proposed in this thread. Additionally, I have demonstrated probable cause to suspect foul play in the process leading up to that decision, probable cause that you have also failed to explain.
You are, demonstrably (and now demonstratedly), simply a long chain of failposts. Get out.
mhm.. what "substantiating arguments" do you think you will get from 2 ppl speculating about something neither has any facts about.. You have suggested a theory you choose to believe.. no amount of you suggesting it, will actually make if factual.. some ppl will believe it, some wont.. welp?
The discussion is more likely to reveal the perspective of the ppl contributing than anything useful about the topic.. You think the titan project was a major decision.. I dont.. that is pretty much all you have actually demonstrated..
I'm not speculating. Don't project your own failings onto me.
There's a reason only one of us has had any of their core arguments backed up by a first hand source - you don't have any core arguments, you simply try to refute mine with easily dismissed assertations.
---------
~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
|
Posted - 2008.02.20 13:51:00 -
[87]
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 13:53:36
Originally by: Baxalusx
I'm not speculating.
ok :-)
1.the contemplation or consideration of some subject: to engage in speculation on humanity's ultimate destiny.
2.a single instance or process of consideration.
3.a conclusion or opinion reached by such contemplation: These speculations are impossible to verify.
4.conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts.
edit: btw, looking up "conjectural" might help also
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xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
ATUK (.5.)
DICE (BOB)
xElcyion Lacar
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.20 14:13:00 -
[88]
Originally by: thoth foc
Edited by: thoth foc on 20/02/2008 13:53:36
Originally by: Baxalusx
I'm not speculating.
ok :-)
1.the contemplation or consideration of some subject: to engage in speculation on humanity's ultimate destiny.
2.a single instance or process of consideration.
3.a conclusion or opinion reached by such contemplation: These speculations are impossible to verify.
4.conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts.
edit: btw, looking up "conjectural" might help also
This post is moot. Either you mean to imply that I am speculating in the neutral sense of the word, in which case it is tantamount to stating that the sky is blue, or you are stating that my arguments are either impossible to verify or conjectural, which is incorrect and what the post you quoted was dismissing. Please re-read it for better understanding.
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~THE ARTIST FORMERLY KNOWN AS ICORION~ |
marakor
Gallente
Anti Lag Forum Smackers
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Posted - 2008.02.20 14:20:00 -
[89]
Edited by: marakor on 20/02/2008 14:21:17
Originally by: Baxalusx
Edited by: Baxalusx on 20/02/2008 13:40:48
Originally by: marakor
Originally by: Fitz Chivalry
The main reason ASCN built the titan was to be the first to have built the titan, same way we were first to build an outpost.
ASCN was primarily interested in building an empire in 0.0 sim-city style and had zero interest in getting into any drawn out fights as the bob "war" clearly demonstrated. It was pretty clear from the way Steve was (not) used in the war that no real thought had gone into the actual operation of the titan.
The fact that you were a bunch of self proclaimed sim city carebears is hardy what i would consider conclusive proof that BOB's titan was a huge dev hax conspiracy as mr paranoid would have us believe.
BOB was a pure war machine at the time at least as warlike as you were carebear so ofcourse they think of every ship in the game in as potential weapon most pure pvp alliances do just as you saw it as a project to show your building might. Especialy for those who at the time were looking at terratorial warfare and as we know cap ships ruled that part of warfare at the time.
I am not looking for a 100% reason for anything, and have stated my recognition of alternate possibilities multiple times during the course of this. What part of this do you not understand? If you look at the arguments as isolated cases, we have:
- BoB had a corrupt developer as their capfleet commander (this is a matter of historical fact).
- BoB built a Titan with military application in mind. As I asserted earlier and a first hand source later from ASCN confirmed for ASCN (and which I have been told by D2 leadership in my dealings with them as a GS director, though that part is obviously up to your own judgment), D2 and ASCN built their Titans primarily to show off industrial capacity.
Now, combine them and add another pecular fact,
- BoB have from day one used their Titan to with great efficiency, their application seeing little change except when the big nerf hit.
Now, of course, I recognize the possibility that BoB only not only lucked out massively on what could very well be an off-chance investment, then immediately saw the tactical potential (a potential which was the opposite of all indications up to that point) of the Titan due to sheer genius. However, I find it more plausible that BoB leadership got more than a few casual tips and tricks that allowed them to put two and two together long before they ever bought a BPO, and if you can't recognize the possibility for that given the stated facts of the case, then perhaps you should reevaluate who is really propagandizing here, hmm?
You claim and a ascn fella has stated that the largest pure carebear group built a titan for asthetic or as a show of industrial might.
Now i recognise that what you claim maybe true although apart from speculation and some very dubious circumstantial evedence you present no hard facts proving a conspiracy. Secondly even if they did do what you claim prenerf titans were around long enough for others to build and learn how to use them from bobs examples in the wars they fought.
Personaly i think its a much more likely that the biggest and most hard core PVP alliance the game has ever seen decided to build the biggest pvp ship eve has ever seen and as they were all highly experianced pvpers who were constantly looking for new ways to blow stuff up and kill things they developed some very effective tactics for using the ship. While the other titans that were built were trotted out for show or left on the mantle piece to gather dust.
But their is zero definitive proof either way and making claims without proof makes you look like just another paranoid omg bob dev hax member of goons.
HEY LISTEN for ruler of eve. |
thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2008.02.20 14:39:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Baxalusx
or you are stating that my arguments are either impossible to verify or conjectural
I think if you had been able to prove your arguements, you would have done it by now.. but i guess we'll see.. nothing sofar, that you have stated serves as proof of anyone's motivation..
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xMenta (DSMA)
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ATUK (.5.)
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