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Annoying can flipping mechanics

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The crablitt	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:12:00 - [1] OK this mainly a whine, but I still feel the need to post I simply find the can flipping concept quite silly and backwards. If someone stole from me, they would have commited a crime, but if I take what is rightfully mine back, I become a criminal too?
Andrest Disch Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:16:00 - [2] Look at it this way; You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. You then walk over to his house and take the DvD player back. The police now pretty much hate both of you. (for 15 minutes, anyways) But you're still a numpty for putting your DvD player in the trash in the first place. =p
The crablitt	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:19:00 - [3] Originally by: Andrest Disch Look at it this way; You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. You then walk over to his house and take the DvD player back. The police now pretty much hate both of you. (for 15 minutes, anyways) But you're still a numpty for putting your DvD player in the trash in the first place. =p But the can is assigned to me and my corp, when you mine coal you dont throw it in a bin to wait for it to be collected.
Gaven Blands Caldari interimo	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:20:00 - [4] I find it annoying that I can't flip your can then shoot you without those mardy CONCORD bastards showing up about 10 seconds later. Save the cemetary!
Andrest Disch Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:22:00 - [5] If it's in a Secure Container, sure.. But I thought you were talking about you just ejecting your minerals into space. Don't secure containers have passwords on themm?
The crablitt	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Andrest Disch If it's in a Secure Container, sure.. But I thought you were talking about you just ejecting your minerals into space. Don't secure containers have passwords on themm? Well then I will turn this thread into a whine about the pittyfull ammount of space secure containers have I am sure CCP wouldnt want me to spam secure containers everywhere, I'd probably then be accused of causing lag.
Vasili vonHolst Minmatar Gargamel's Lair	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:45:00 - [7] I like carebear ganking mechanincs :P Want to see 100 Faction Battleships killed in one EVE Movie?ôCarebear sorrowsö - 500m in Carebear devastation
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2008.02.19 16:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Andrest Disch You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. Not the same... Can flipping is the equivalent of setting your DvD Player and its speakers on the ground next to you while you are chilling in the park eating your picnic. Someone runs through and grabs it, taking off. You didn't "discard" it, you simply didn't have it in your hands. That said, if you are silly enough to chase that person into the dark alley to get it back....... About the only things I can think of to "fix" flipping is 1) Make it so that the object has to go into your cargo hold before you can put it in your own can (no shuttles flipping 27km3) 2) Minor security loss for taking something out of someone's can (even today's police think its a crime to take something out of the back of your pickup truck, though they might tell you that you were an idiot for leaving it there) The ability to do so needs to remain. Originally by: Audri Fisher On the other, the emo tears being cryed in this thread tell me that just because you shoot somebody for a living, does not mean you aren't a carebear
Shopping FTW	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:12:00 - [9] Edited by: Shopping FTW on 19/02/2008 17:13:21 To those saying it is not theft.... Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Wrong 3 years ago, still wrong today. Its theft, pure and simple. CCP has created a universe where players have to provide their own muscle to protect their property, and for very good reasons. But theft is still theft, regardless of stupidly flawed logic saying otherwise. (the trashcan logic being among the most drooling knuckle dragging stupid....) Concord has orders to attack violent criminals in limited and clearly defined situations, and to IGNORE almost all other actions. Just that Concord ignores it does not stop it from being theft. Enforcement Actual ownership Possession Are not consistant (nor should they be in Eve....) Theives are theives, nothing more, nothing less. Whining theives are pathetic, just like whiny carebears. Edit: gah... posted with a damn alt.....
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Shopping FTW But theft is still theft, regardless of stupidly flawed logic saying otherwise. (the trashcan logic being among the most drooling knuckle dragging stupid....) I disagree. Jettison canisters were designed to be repositories of discarded items. Storing valuable items in them is like storing them in garbage cans on the side of your house - you can do so at your own discretion, but stealing someone's garbage (as far as I know) is not considered theft regardless of the content of said garbage. Jettison canisters are not designed to store things you want, they were designed to store things you want to discard. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3

Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:21:00 - [11] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Andrest Disch You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. Not the same... Can flipping is the equivalent of setting your DvD Player and its speakers on the ground next to you while you are chilling in the park eating your picnic. Someone runs through and grabs it, taking off. You didn't "discard" it, you simply didn't have it in your hands. Not the same, either... Can flipping has no equivalent. It's as if you put your CD player on the ground in front of you at the park. Someone then walks up to you, lifts it off the ground and puts it right back down next to you. When you go to pick it up, he then beats the snot out of you. When your girlfriend calls the police they say "Too bad, it became the other guy's property when he picked it up and put it back down again." Stealing stuff from my can is a valid tactic. "Flipping" is, in my opinion, a borderline exploit. That said, you don't notice him flashing red, or the "steal" notice when you try to remove stuff from what was previously your can? -Grid
Dimitrius Zabelle	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:21:00 - [12] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Andrest Disch You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. Not the same... Can flipping is the equivalent of setting your DvD Player and its speakers on the ground next to you while you are chilling in the park eating your picnic. Someone runs through and grabs it, taking off. You didn't "discard" it, you simply didn't have it in your hands. Not entirely true. Jet cans are just that, jettisoned material. They are not carefully assembled ore deposits sitting around you, but items which you have technically thrown away. They difference is in this case you planned to collect them again. That's not really the fault of the person who saw abandoned materials sitting nearby to you. CCP have said many times that jet can mining is not the way the mechanics were intended. If you wish to mine using cans safely, the way to do it is with an anchored, passworded giant secure container and another player in a hauler sitting nearby to collect the stuff. OR simply by dropping ore off at the station yourself every cycle. I don't care if you don't make as much money that way, it's just the way it works.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Shopping FTW But theft is still theft, regardless of stupidly flawed logic saying otherwise. (the trashcan logic being among the most drooling knuckle dragging stupid....) I disagree. Jettison canisters were designed to be repositories of discarded items. Storing valuable items in them is like storing them in garbage cans on the side of your house - you can do so at your own discretion, but stealing someone's garbage (as far as I know) is not considered theft regardless of the content of said garbage. Jettison canisters are not designed to store things you want, they were designed to store things you want to discard. I disagree. How much will it cost for you to rant about it with my opinion instead of yours? :-) -Grid
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:30:00 - [14] Edited by: Tarminic on 19/02/2008 17:33:25 Originally by: Gridwalker I disagree. How much will it cost for you to rant about it with my opinion instead of yours? :-) -Grid My usual rate of ten mil. I remind you, however, that the intent of my rants is to entertain instead of argue, and as such will not likely advance your cause. ---------------- Tarminic - 32 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.78.3
Nova Fox	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:33:00 - [15] there used to be a bug where if you put an item in somone else's can it flagged them instead of you. CCP fixed that within a week though if i recall right.
Firkragg PREDATORS OF DESTRUCTION	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Andrest Disch You put your DvD player in your rubbish bin outside your house. Someone walks past your hosue, sees said DvD player and steals it. Not the same... Can flipping is the equivalent of setting your DvD Player and its speakers on the ground next to you while you are chilling in the park eating your picnic. Someone runs through and grabs it, taking off. You didn't "discard" it, you simply didn't have it in your hands. That said, if you are silly enough to chase that person into the dark alley to get it back....... About the only things I can think of to "fix" flipping is 1) Make it so that the object has to go into your cargo hold before you can put it in your own can (no shuttles flipping 27km3) 2) Minor security loss for taking something out of someone's can (even today's police think its a crime to take something out of the back of your pickup truck, though they might tell you that you were an idiot for leaving it there) The ability to do so needs to remain. No this is more like you being in the park having a picnic and you putting your sandwich in the bin thats next to you. Then some tramp walks along and decides that bin sandwich is cool and takes it out again. You decide that this blatent eating of bin food is wrong and because that was your sandwich you decide to take it back off the tramp. The tramp bieng a hungry hungry hobo then kicks your butt getting your sandwich and your wallet. Seems about right to me from my point of view.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.02.19 17:42:00 - [17] Well i'm a carebear but u will get no compasion from me, if u wanna mine, then take a buddy along in a hauler and let them haul for u and atleast in eve u have the change to shoot the b@st@rd that took ur ore in the face, if someone steals ur dvd player in rlÖ and u do that, ur going to jail. Having said all this, i still would like to see 10k m3 secure cans CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:00:00 - [18] If the 15 minutes flagging were a 72 hours killright there would be no problem. _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Gridwalker Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:06:00 - [19] I'm going to end this "it is trash" argument right here. The fact is, if someone takes something from a can that you jettisoned, they will get a criminal flag. That criminal flag allows you to attack the individual who took items from your can, without recourse from CONCORD. Therefore, CONCORD acknowledges that someone else taking an item from a can you jettison is in fact theft and an illegal act. The game mechanics explicitly indicate it is theft. You even get a warning indicating it is theft, unless you disable the warning. So the whole "it is trash and doesn't belong to anyone" argument flies directly in the face of the warnings you get, the flag that is set, and CONCORD's reactions when you attack the individual who took items from the can. -Grid
Brutoth Tain Independant Recon and Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:37:00 - [20] The simple answer is is don't jetcan unless your prepared to take the risk, You know full well that jetcanning attracts the can flippers and you also know full well that the can flipper wants to provoke you so they can attack you. Yet people still continue to jetcan and then cry about the results. Do you perpetually stick your hand into a fire knowing that its hot and is going to hurt? ---------------------------------------------- Piebears <3 Risk Vs Reward.......You take the risk they take the reward.

Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:38:00 - [21] There just needs to be a much bigger secure can out there for mining (say 12-15k), currently moving 5km between each 'cycle' of 3900m3 (which is LESS then what I mine in a single cycle) is not worth it. Agreed you are 'putting' your stuff in the trashbin so to speak, but only because the universe in which those thieves and police exist provide no practical alternative. Give us a bigger can and then Jetcanning won't be whined over again, ever. Don't expect hapless miners to switch to 3.9km3 cans because of can flipping, SGC's just don't work good enough, I tried. Also, if CCP didn't design jetcans for this purpose, wouldn't that indicate something is wrong with how mining is handled? Not everyone can/wants to mine with others. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Kalius Prime Roid Activists	Posted - 2008.02.19 18:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Thenoran There just needs to be a much bigger secure can out there for mining (say 12-15k). It's called a HAULER!!!
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:10:00 - [23] you could just warp to a safespot and drop your jetcan there. while still possible to be looted, the odds a can flipper go to the trouble is much less. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Alora Venoda you could just warp to a safespot and drop your jetcan there. while still possible to be looted, the odds a can flipper go to the trouble is much less. That makes absolutely no sense you even think about that statement? If you're going to warp away from your mining spot then why not just safely deposit your ore in station? If a jet can were as some people put it "a garbage bin" then there would be no ownership of said cans and you wouldn't get a warning from taking something from them. Jet cans are temporary storage containers to allow you to store items in that exceed your current cargo space. You can trash an item and it does not pop into a jet can it gets deleted. CCP absolutely needs a much larger secure container or some sort of deployable item that is a cross between a jet can and a secure container. Basically make a deployable item that requires Anchoring to launch, once it is launched it cannot be moved except by tractor beam. The only ships that could scoop it into their cargo bay are those exceeding 27,000 m^3 that the can takes up. The Container is password secured and expires after 2 hours and like Secure Containers can be launched for self or corp. These would cost roughly 50-75k ISK each.
URUS FORGE Caldari Blue Haven Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:39:00 - [25] My response to this is possession is 9/10ths the law. Game is setup so that Concord can recognize violent conflict.. but can't see every thief out there. As much as I dispise rats and greifers, that is their chosen profession, and as much as the good guys need opportunities.. so do the bad guys. I would agree that a small neg (or positive depending on your perspective) faction rating should be applied. However the item being stolen, you the player should be able to report the theft to Concord.. if the rat can get the item out of Concord space (note the customs agents at gates) Then they can have it.. If you have played Oblivion.. I think that system for theivery is good. Gaurds catch you, demand you pay a fine and turn over the items.. or you can opt to try and kill the gaurd.. who will chase you accross the entire map to get you. Much like Oblivion stolen items should basically have their own marker once stolen. This might go toward creating an in game black market..which would be an interesting addition to the entire EvE game. Soo.. to sum it up.. if you don't want your crap stolen, don't give people the opportunity to steal it. Quote: A tragic situation exists precisely when virtue does not triumph but when it is still felt that man is nobler than the forces which destroy him. - George Orwell
Shopping FTW	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:24:00 - [26] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Shopping FTW But theft is still theft, regardless of stupidly flawed logic saying otherwise. (the trashcan logic being among the most drooling knuckle dragging stupid....) I disagree. Jettison canisters were designed to be repositories of discarded items. Storing valuable items in them is like storing them in garbage cans on the side of your house - you can do so at your own discretion, but stealing someone's garbage (as far as I know) is not considered theft regardless of the content of said garbage. Jettison canisters are not designed to store things you want, they were designed to store things you want to discard. In my home right now I have 2 small plastic "trashcans" that are not holding trash. At a friend's house, he keeps pool supplies in a large trashcan During my time in the military, I remember several cases where large trash cans were used to store stuff OTHER than trash. And I know you've seen such stuff too, its pretty common. And in ALL those cases, even if the legal question was limited ONLY to the type of container and what was inside of it, there is not a court or cop in the world that would not bust you for theft if you stole stuff out of it. Drooling stupid to even suggest otherwise. I don't want to see CCP change thing, but if its theft, dont go around saying its not theft. One of the wonderful thing about Eve is that you can really steal stuff.
Syringe	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:36:00 - [27] My understanding is that this has already been addressed - numerous times. Mining into a jettison can is against the intended game mechanics. Yes, you can use a secure can as a medium between you and a hauler if you're really that terrifically concerned about it. Otherwise, be prepared to either defend your ore or accept it as loss. Nobody MAKES you mine into a jet-can, there are other mechanics that help circumvent this so if you get can-jacked, who's fault is it? Yup, that's right. Yours.
Yargo Metash Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.19 20:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Syringe My understanding is that this has already been addressed - numerous times. Mining into a jettison can is against the intended game mechanics. Yes, you can use a secure can as a medium between you and a hauler if you're really that terrifically concerned about it. Otherwise, be prepared to either defend your ore or accept it as loss. Nobody MAKES you mine into a jet-can, there are other mechanics that help circumvent this so if you get can-jacked, who's fault is it? Yup, that's right. Yours. Disagree about it being against intended game mechanics. Risk<->Reward being intended. Sure, it's easier to mine into a jetcan than your own hold, or a rather staggeringly small giant secure container, but as a consequence, anyone can come up and take from it. I think Can flipping is cheap personally (Especially with alts, dang, carebear thieves ) and would rather the can flipper go and get something with some cargo bay to steal from me properly. As is, I see a thief, they've got a good minute to get to my ore, can flipped or not, before I snag it with my own hauler... And I'm happy with this. I just detest the use of alts for minimizing the risk in pirating.
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Syringe My understanding is that this has already been addressed - numerous times. Mining into a jettison can is against the intended game mechanics. Yes, you can use a secure can as a medium between you and a hauler if you're really that terrifically concerned about it. Otherwise, be prepared to either defend your ore or accept it as loss. Nobody MAKES you mine into a jet-can, there are other mechanics that help circumvent this so if you get can-jacked, who's fault is it? Yup, that's right. Yours. I'd have to disagree for one very obvious reason. Jet cans are 27,000 m^3 no matter if a Frigate or Industrial jettisons it, if they weren't meant to be used for mining wouldn't it be more appropriate that they reflect the size of the ship's hold that jettisoned it? So a Frigate with a hold 130 m^3 should only be able to create a jet can 130 m^3 if the logic you and others present holds true. Actually you must know nothing about mining, why if I've got a hauler handy (I mean someone actually hauling for me) am I going to go through the trouble of buying a GCS and anchoring it? A strip mining laser takes 3 minutes to cycle, so if I dump the ore from my hold into a jet can and my hauler friend/alt takes it from the can right away (except one unit of course) there is no risk to using a jet can with more than one person. The Industrial pilot has almost 6 minutes from the time they take the last cycle to the time they have to return before any ore is actually at risk from a flipper. It is the solo miner with no hauler alt (second account) who has the risk jet can mining because they have to let the ore sit in a can until they can retrieve it with their hauler. Yes someone does make you mine into a jet-can, CCP does because they provide nothing bigger than a GSC which is woefully inadequate once you hit the level of mining barges. One cycle fills your ships hold, two cycles fills your GSC, and the third one you have to warp back and get your industrial to haul. This is costly in the form of time, not to mention tedious in the extreme. Then you also have the issue of being able to anchor a container, but that may not be so bad with the upcoming patch.
000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.02.19 21:38:00 - [30] Lets turn this thread into a 'we want gargantuan secure cans' thread But seriously a 10k can shouldn't be that bad should it? but if someone can give me a reason why a 10k secure can is bad then i'm listening. _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!



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