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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:38:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51 I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game. Im sorry to say that is no longer the case. Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. There was the famous nano-phoon imbalance that caused a massive imbalance in the game for months despite being profusely reported by testers. There was also the famous ECM nerf; people whines about ECM ships and then CCP whacked it with a stick without any consideration about the wider impact on the game. It took them 4 or 5 months to come out with a fix to ths ships they crippled. The story goes on and on and continues to be messed up. Now there are developers making changes to the game that no nothing about the game. In fact I would venture to say some of them have never even played the game. The prime example is the interdictor speed nerf. Only someone who has not even played the game could make the asinine statement that nano ships are impossible to catch even with dedicated web or nos ships. Only a person that has never flown an interdictor would come to the stupid conclusion that because the Sabre is the fastest dictor, all of them should be speed nerfed. And only someone with very little experience in the game would categorically remove undocks from the game for the purposes of spreading out people coming out of Jita IV-4. So why the changes? Quite simply its the loudest whine on these forums -- forums that have, in the past, told people to commit suicide in real life and laughed when someone did. This SEWER is driving the game down the road of WOW. Because the people here lack imagination and skill in PvP it is being dumbed down, patch by patch. To what end I wonder? To catch the WoW crowd? Is it now just another studio with care only of money? Where is the vision now? There should be a requirement that all devs have to play this game for more than 1000 hours over half a year before being allowed to propose any changes to the game. They should have to participate in PvP and in alliance warfare and 0.0 living before making pathetic changes like nerfing all undocks for a trite reason. They need to do this before the game totally explodes. They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. Yes, I know I'm about to get flamed but I dont really give a (water retaining structure) anymore. Ive said my piece.
Nahh	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:46:00 - [2] reserved
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:47:00 - [3] Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 21/02/2008 06:48:47 people saying they know they are going to get flamed is like a dude saying I'm going to breath today. Adding that dosen't really do anything. The more you know
Flaming Lemming Caldari Puppeteer Press	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:53:00 - [4] While I agree with pretty much every point that you make, I have to admire the irony of you whining about how changes are made due to whining.
Dirk Magnum Spearhead Endeavors	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:56:00 - [5] Interesting. So if I whine hard enough about whiners not being banned outright not only from the forum, and not only from the game, but from life itself, I might succeed for the reasons you mentioned? This is an outstanding development. I will also whine before making a "ban whiners" whine about the time it is taking to train Advanced Spaceship Comm to 5. Whicked awesome What the hell am I doing drunk on a wednesday......... I hear they frown on that in Iceland. Oh right it;s because my university's IRB told me I had to make "major revisions" to my research proposal. I got your major revisions right here tbh
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:56:00 - [6] And that's why Gallente are now the worst race for Gang PvP I admire your efforts, I really do, but I fail to see how this is going to accomplish anything. If they really had a clue, they would have 'balanced' things like MWDs and Webbers a long time ago, rather than nerfing/buffing everything else around them
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.21 06:59:00 - [7] Even if some people tend to call every non-positiv Thread a "whine" there must be cretic to improve the gameplay. It can't be 100% perfect, that has nothing to do with this game. It's a general problem of everthink on earth. If there is a problem somewhere it must be allowed to say: "hey, there is a problem" if it is based on knowlage, hard nubers or tested acurat. But ... as it can't be 100% balanced there will allways be somebody who names every non-positiv post a "whine". Most of the time becouse he might be negativ effected of it ;). not the one who posts the problem but the one who calls him whiner is the REAL whiner!
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.21 07:11:00 - [8] Originally by: Rells They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. I know they said that the were going start a player-comittee of some sort. Don't remember for what purouse tho.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 07:38:00 - [9] Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 07:38:53 Originally by: Rawr Cristina And that's why Gallente are now the worst race for Gang PvP I admire your efforts, I really do, but I fail to see how this is going to accomplish anything. If they really had a clue, they would have 'balanced' things like MWDs and Webbers a long time ago, rather than nerfing/buffing everything else around them It wont. Trust me, Im a realist. But I had to say it. Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rells They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. I know they said that the were going start a player-comittee of some sort. Don't remember for what purouse tho. They also said they were going to fix the corp interface. ... 4 years ago.
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:08:00 - [10] you do realize that every post you have ever made regarding game design is one massive nonconstructive whinefest? irony ftw....
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:26:00 - [11] Originally by: Rells They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. This, QFT and FTW. Nuff said. +++++++++++++++ For the LAST time... Keep your UGLY Typhoon off my SEXY Hurricane
Kalica Kahn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:38:00 - [12] Edited by: Kalica Kahn on 21/02/2008 08:39:48 I like the changes And a certainly <3 all the nerd rage from those who just don't want their special ship changed.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Rells ...curious stuff about ignoring comments of the players and listening to whine at the same time... Name one single balance change that doesn't make sense, and you might have a point. What you dismiss so easily as whine (and what an idiot thing to do), are quite often logical arguments about things that aren't balanced in Eve, and it reach big proportions when said unbalanced become widely used. Do you honeslty think speed-tanking is fine, depite precision light missiles doing 0.0 damage, and warrior II becoming the only light drones to use because the others are too slow? Do you honestly think ECM was fine, when everyone and their dogs were fitting them on their ships? Sure, CCP sometimes screw-up and ignore warnings from players about what they're doing (Doomsday anyone?). That still doesn't mean anything related to whine. ------------------------------------------
Valan The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.21 08:49:00 - [14] Balance changes are fine and I must admit I'm benefitting from most of them just lately. However, this game is crashing fast from what it used to be. It used to be hardcore, something different, it was dark, hard going and rewards came to those who used initiative and skill. Now its fluffy space and grinding. The options for nefarious activity have been limited and even the brainless can win. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.02.21 09:09:00 - [15] While game balance changes are always going to happen, what I dont get is the CCP approach to things. For example, ECM was genuinly borked, only because of the 20 second jam time. Everyone agreed ECM would be fin if it just broke locks and thats it. What does CCP do? Nerf ECM insted of fixing it. Sensor Dampners were borked because people could use 3-4 of them and their target could not lock them. People said "Easy sensor dampner fix is have the victim's abilities uneffected vs the dampner". Thus, the dampner becomes a gang module insted of a omg wtf, and this also discorages a dampner gang. People were happy with this. What does CCP do? Nerf Dampning insted of fixing it Tracking disrupters have long been the joke of EW. Just because its Amarr, people laughed even more at it. People asking for just about anything to make this viable. What does CCP do? Massively nerf TD's insted of fixing it. PvP in this game is good. However, people used stuff like wcs, nano, cloak, logon traps, logoff when in danger and a whole lot of other stupid stuff that is the REAL problem. People flying 27km/s nanomaches with 45km scrams (gangmember in claymore) are the new invincible. With weapons such as cruise, the new nanomachs are the i-win button and competent players cannot be beaten. And if you assemble a force to beat them, then the nanomach will simply MWD to gate and jump out in 1 second. So CCP - can you fix this borked nano concept once and for all? Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
Agil TradeAlt	Posted - 2008.02.21 09:12:00 - [16] Originally by: ZerKar Originally by: Rells They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. This, QFT and FTW. Nuff said. Sadly, such a commetee would make changes in their favor insted of the good of eve. For example, someone with stockpile of 10,000 regeneratives plates he bought at 1 isk each because they are mostly useless, could push for a change that makes his plates worth 1mil each. To the outside observer, he is doing a good job, but he is pushing for his own agenda rather than anything else. So for reasons such as this and many others, thats why cometee is a bad idea Originally by: CCP kieron ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.
Roy Gordon Caldari Caldari Advanced Response Division G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 09:32:00 - [17] I have always advocated that any player proposals which affect major changes to game play should only be made when a SIGNIFICANT proportion of the player base either points out a problem or brings up a new idea. As there are over 400,000 subscribers to Eve, I do not feel its fair in a democratic society that the complaints of less than one percent of that subscriber base can have an effect on the rest of us. Perhaps there should be an æofficalÆ policy along the lines of æPlayer proposed changes to either game play or the games design will not be considered unless at least 10 percent of the subscriber base agrees with the proposalÆ That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Elles D Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.02.21 09:38:00 - [18] Well duh. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2008.02.21 09:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Roy Gordon I have always advocated that any player proposals which affect major changes to game play should only be made when a SIGNIFICANT proportion of the player base either points out a problem or brings up a new idea. As there are over 400,000 subscribers to Eve, I do not feel its fair in a democratic society that the complaints of less than one percent of that subscriber base can have an effect on the rest of us. Perhaps there should be an æofficalÆ policy along the lines of æPlayer proposed changes to either game play or the games design will not be considered unless at least 10 percent of the subscriber base agrees with the proposalÆ If people don't voice their opinion, the don't belong in a democracy. They most certainly don't get the right to complain about changes, they never voice their complaint about, when the change was proposed. So if you feel its bad, that the 1% who voice their opinion has the power, get more people to voice their opinion. CCP are not mind readers, you know. Besides, EvE is no a democracy, it's a dictatorship with CCP as the leader. They hold absolute power over the game and what happens to it. I am grateful that they listen and read the forums and listen to the 1% that whines, compared to the 99% who don't say anything.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:07:00 - [20] So? Seeing as Eve is now more than ever before determined to be just another game on the product shelf, it doesn't really matter what happens. --- Fanboi noun: 1)Person who thinks you should be happy that Eve just got a little bit worse. 2) Idiot. Fanboiz: Plural of Fanboi Doorknob: Collective noun for Fanboiz.
Brother Welcome Amarr Icarus' Wings Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:47:00 - [21] The OP should look at this link, and admire the information in the orange table. http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=505 Then come back about PvP balance...
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:47:00 - [22] What I don't understand is why the whines > counterwhines. Ten people yell "nerf drones", another ten yell "don't nerf drones" There is a 1:1 ratio on who wants what, and somehow CCP listens to the ONE fifty percent side, as opposed to the other. Why is that?
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2008.02.21 10:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Agil TradeAlt While game balance changes are always going to happen, what I dont get is the CCP approach to things. For example, ECM was genuinly borked, only because of the 20 second jam time. Everyone agreed ECM would be fin if it just broke locks and thats it. What does CCP do? Nerf ECM insted of fixing it. Sensor Dampners were borked because people could use 3-4 of them and their target could not lock them. People said "Easy sensor dampner fix is have the victim's abilities uneffected vs the dampner". Thus, the dampner becomes a gang module insted of a omg wtf, and this also discorages a dampner gang. People were happy with this. What does CCP do? Nerf Dampning insted of fixing it Tracking disrupters have long been the joke of EW. Just because its Amarr, people laughed even more at it. People asking for just about anything to make this viable. What does CCP do? Massively nerf TD's insted of fixing it. PvP in this game is good. However, people used stuff like wcs, nano, cloak, logon traps, logoff when in danger and a whole lot of other stupid stuff that is the REAL problem. People flying 27km/s nanomaches with 45km scrams (gangmember in claymore) are the new invincible. With weapons such as cruise, the new nanomachs are the i-win button and competent players cannot be beaten. And if you assemble a force to beat them, then the nanomach will simply MWD to gate and jump out in 1 second. So CCP - can you fix this borked nano concept once and for all? while you are right about almost everything, I dare you to find such nanomach with a cost below 1bil (ship + modules included). the only nerf that nanos need, if any at all, is the snakes and polys. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51 I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game. Perhaps they are still doing this, only your and their perception of PvP and balance of the game has diverged. Also, just by stating that you think changes are made based on the whine level doesn't make it so. Additionally, CCP would be stupid if they didn't listen to customer concerns. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
Kailea Shandrasekkar COLD-Wing The Fourth District	Posted - 2008.02.21 11:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Agil TradeAlt ...So for reasons such as this and many others, thats why cometee is a bad idea Can't agree more. The price demanded for the most precious of all things is life itself - ultimate cost for perfect value.
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Snake Assault	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:23:00 - [26] As unfortunate as it is, that just seems the way things go in (niche) MMOs. Start off hard-core and then gradually introduce more and more of weak sauce so the game gets more HelloKittyfied. Until some people had enough and head off to produce a game that's "more like the old-skool version of <insert previous game that went through this> without the stupid dumbing down". Isn't this how EVE was created in the first place?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:28:00 - [27] Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Snake Assault	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Avon Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Those were exactly my thoughts. Too bad that CCP doesn't see following UO's footsteps as a mistake. Then again, from a financial pov it probably isn't a mistake to dumb things down so the game becomes more mainstream. It's our own problem that we don't want mainstream.
Jin Gle Gallente The Topal Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:37:00 - [29] I still dont get why people complain at all. Feedback of course is good, but not like this. The descisions CCP makes are theirs to make. Its not a democracy noone ever implied it was. EVE is a product. You pay for it. If you dont like it, dont pay for it. But dont expect it to change to what you want it to be just because you pay for it. Space Lion
Artazzo	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:40:00 - [30] the whiners are not the mass, they are just 1%() of the eve-population. YOU are not the mass, you just complain about the whiners the mass is actually those people who are NOT coming to the forums, but instead just playing the game and having fun. the mass is what devs care about, not you, not the whiners, but the mass, because they generate the income. do you really think devs are not playing the game? i'm sure they don;t play it with a big neon sign above their ships with the words "DEVELOPER HERE" i think they are just having fun in some corp doing the same stuff as tyou, complain about the same stuff and having fun as well. the corp-chatter is imho much more genuin than forum-chat, because that is merely a small summary of a certain point of a certain aspect of a certain problem. think out of the box. A. ()1% is a fictional percentage not based on statistics, but i'm quite sure it ain't higher than 20%
Xar Zhun	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:01:00 - [31] Its sad to say but i look at this post and the antiwhiners and the antinerfers all seem to fall into the 2 years plus catagory. Thats the damn problem, when you guys started playing EVE was just about scrapping 10k players (if you take away the multi accounters) Now your talking 200k subs (prob break that down to 5% trial 50% single acct and 45% alts) its a totally different situation. Things that were bearable with a small playerbase just aint with a larger base (yes the 27km/s is totally unbearable and scientifically stupid) as the OP said - suck it up or go away - thats been the ethos thru out eve's life, now its affecting the Old players/PVP brigade they are whining about whining :) Irony, the only power in the universe
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:22:00 - [32] Originally by: Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Originally by: Avon Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Those were exactly my thoughts. Too bad that CCP doesn't see following UO's footsteps as a mistake. Then again, from a financial pov it probably isn't a mistake to dumb things down so the game becomes more mainstream. It's your own problem that we don't want mainstream. There. I've corrected it for you But tbh you're absolutely correct. CCP is a company and it will always go where the money is. If you want to start your own company and develop a niche MMORPG that never gets more than a few thousand subscribers then nothing's stopping you trying. All you have to do is find a bunch of developers, graphics artists, IT specialists, equipment manufacturers, ISPs and various others who will be happy to be paid in hopes and aspirations rather than hard cash. Welcome to the real world -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Roy Gordon Caldari Caldari Advanced Response Division G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:26:00 - [33] There is a game out there which is currently in development, by fans for fans. Its called 'Infinity'. It will be interesting to see if the same moans and groans appear on its forums once its been up and running for awhile as appear here. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. The Universe is ruled by three basic principles- Matter, Energy and Enlightened Self-Interest!
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Xar Zhun Its sad to say but i look at this post and the antiwhiners and the antinerfers all seem to fall into the 2 years plus catagory. Not me. I've been playing since 18.2.2004 and I still love the game. It's great to see it develop and flourish. I think CCP are doing a good job in keeping it interesting. It's no surprise to me that the hardcore PvPers are whining a bit. Those are people that crave excitement and the novelty soon wears off. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Snake Assault	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Andrue All you have to do is find a bunch of developers, graphics artists, IT specialists, equipment manufacturers, ISPs and various others who will be happy to be paid in hopes and aspirations rather than hard cash. You seem to forget that CCP also started out small and still was able to pay their staff (I'd assume). And if EVE should become "too" mainstream (aka WoW clone number 4296), then someone else will move into the niche. Guess which game I'll be playing then.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:55:00 - [36] Originally by: Andrue It's no surprise to me that the hardcore PvPers are whining a bit. Those are people that crave excitement and the novelty soon wears off. No, most of us want for CCP to stop nerfing the game so much. There are situations where nerfing is needed, but it seems like lately they are getting carried away with all the nerfinf. Some things they change that nobody even whined about, completely out of the blue.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:16:00 - [37] Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far...
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:27:00 - [38] Edited by: Andrue on 21/02/2008 14:28:23 Originally by: Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Originally by: Andrue All you have to do is find a bunch of developers, graphics artists, IT specialists, equipment manufacturers, ISPs and various others who will be happy to be paid in hopes and aspirations rather than hard cash. You seem to forget that CCP also started out small and still was able to pay their staff (I'd assume). And if EVE should become "too" mainstream (aka WoW clone number 4296), then someone else will move into the niche. Guess which game I'll be playing then. You seem to be overlooking the fact that CCP didn't make a profit at first. As with a lot of companies they had outside investment to get them going. Some of that investment (probably quite a large amount) was used to pay the staff. It took them several years to actually turn a profit. The truth of the matter is that most humans don't like playing vicious, backstabbing MMORPGs. People play MMORPGs to get away from reality and only a small number of people would choose to live in a reality as mean and harsh as low-sec or 0.0. You could probably create a small MMORPG without having to worry too much about profit but it would be slow going. If you did manage to release it further changes would be equally slow. Personally I think it would fail because of an imbalance between the hunters and the hunted. As it stands Eve looks to be well balanced in that respect. Enough victims for the predators to survive but not so many predators as to wipe out the prey. The game you want would have to maintain that same ratio. As for you moving to another game, I'm sure you will. The only point I'm making here is that Eve is doing very well and expecting CCP to have a change of heart and start making it nasty again is a waste of time. It is what it is because if you want a long term game (and why else bother with an MMORPG) you have to cater for the carebears. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Cailais Amarr VITOC	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Ladies and Gentlemen we've got a thread WINNARR! Gemini Zero wins a signed autobiography from Rells, a weeks holiday in Jita (expenses paid) and a fridge magnet Dont forget to tune in next week folks for the chance to win BIG!! canned applause C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
Karash Amerius Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:08:00 - [40] TomB remembers what happened to UO...where the hell has he been? Does he even work for CCP anymore? I miss his STFU attitude to the ship/module whiners. "Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation Endless Horizon	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Nahh Seems like ambulation is what gets the most resources while balance and game play get Zulupark. Yeah, gameplay pulled the short straw in that department for sure.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc. Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Ouch. That's such a comprehensive, definitive putdown that this must be a Tarminic alt.
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:55:00 - [43] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... lol i was thinking the same. You fail rells. --- ---
mishkof Caldari Shadows of Valor Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:19:00 - [44] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... lol, silly whiners. I own a T2 BPO and Capital alt, therefor all of my views will be pro-Capital Alt/T2 BPO orientated. Please pick one of the following settings for your response. []hate me []troll me []smack me
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Snake Assault	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:22:00 - [45] Originally by: Andrue As it stands Eve looks to be well balanced in that respect. Enough victims for the predators to survive but not so many predators as to wipe out the prey. The game you want would have to maintain that same ratio. As for you moving to another game, I'm sure you will. The only point I'm making here is that Eve is doing very well and expecting CCP to have a change of heart and start making it nasty again is a waste of time. It is what it is because if you want a long term game (and why else bother with an MMORPG) you have to cater for the carebears. I agree with you on all the other points. However, I'm not asking for EVE to become meaner. If it was my choice (and it clearly isn't) I wouldn't want the game to become softer. There are more than enough carebears to keep the economy running, and we all know they're a large part of the economic backbone. But if the game undergoes several more HelloKittyfications, the type of players that make the game fun for me would thin out. And then it's only a matter of time that EVE ends up being a WoW clone. The whole point is with all people complaining about their inability to cope with, say nano-ships, they're not unable to stop them because there is no way to do so, but because they're unable to adapt. The tools are there, but they refuse to change their fleets/setups/tactics to cope with the new challenges. If these complaints lead to CCP nerfing aspects yet again, add some more iterations of similar situations until the game actively punishes creativity and flexibility while rewarding stubborness, lack of imagination, and worst of all whining.
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 16:34:00 - [46] What do you speak of this PVP game thingie?? I thought this was a turn based space simulation Trade Game? You mean you get to fly around and shoot other players in real live action without waiting to take your turn?? Wow what a concept, instead of mining, trading, and agent running we can have fun testing our wits against stations and guns or sometimes other players. Too bad there are more interesting stuff to do than stare at a black screen waiting to "load". I don't need 30 minutes to decide on my next move. You are sure you not pulling my leg about this player verses player game? ..i..
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.21 17:03:00 - [47] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... This is some of the best internet ownage I've seen in a while. My hats off to you good sir /salute.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:49:00 - [48] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Rells ...curious stuff about ignoring comments of the players and listening to whine at the same time... Name one single balance change that doesn't make sense, and you might have a point. I named several in the original post. Oh and by the way, you "quoted" but actually inserted your own content. Disingenuous revisionist quoting for the win? Try integrity next time when quoting me instead of inserting your own words.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 18:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Originally by: Avon Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Those were exactly my thoughts. Too bad that CCP doesn't see following UO's footsteps as a mistake. Then again, from a financial pov it probably isn't a mistake to dumb things down so the game becomes more mainstream. It's your own problem that we don't want mainstream. There. I've corrected it for you But tbh you're absolutely correct. CCP is a company and it will always go where the money is. If you want to start your own company and develop a niche MMORPG that never gets more than a few thousand subscribers then nothing's stopping you trying. All you have to do is find a bunch of developers, graphics artists, IT specialists, equipment manufacturers, ISPs and various others who will be happy to be paid in hopes and aspirations rather than hard cash. Welcome to the real world I dont buy the notion that you have to conform to the masses dumb down the game and respond only to whiners to make money. If that were the case Eve would never have made it out of Beta. It did and has grown steadily since then but now with devs like Zulupark CLEARLY having NOT EVEN PLAYED the game, it is going down hill. If you have a vision, people will come to that vision. Do we really need another fast-food joint or "easy MMOG"? What happened to vision and creativity? Down the toilet or the sake of copying cookie cutter solutions. In this post some people are focusing all of their counter energy on this nerf or that, Im not talking about any one of them in specific but the sum of the nerfs and changes. Most specifically Im talking about RADICAL SWEEPING CHANGES being made in the game by pure accident to solve trivial stupid issues like poeple running into each other outside of Jita. Lets just nix the concept of insta-undock so that people dont bunch up outside of jita? You MUST be kidding me! Yet even this is just yet another example. I can come up with more, such as the Amarr ship changes that after thousands of posts and replies and suggestions, CCP devs (oh its Zulupark again I believe) still think the problem is EM resistance levels and the best change to make is to reduce EM resist and nerf tanks across the board. This is DESPITE THOUSANDS of words of posts saying "its the cap usage stupid". The list goes on and on and yet the things that get focused on are the whines. The interesting thing is how these same whiners attack this post as "whining about the whiners." Nice self-supporting logic there. But then I did expect flames so shrug.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:10:00 - [50] ^ small addition to Rells post I can understand the EM armor resistence nerf. I don't like it, but I see it as one of possible solutions. However, I see no reason why shield explosive resistence has to be nerfed. It has nothing to do with boosting Amarr. Shield tanking and armor tanking are similar in name only, specifically in the word "tanking". Game mechanics for those are completely different. There is no existing balance between shield and armor tanking. They are vaguely similar, but there is no direct connection between them. Shield tanking is PvE, armor tanking is PvP. That's the main idea, yes it is possible to mix them, but those are the main patterns of EVE gameplay. What exactly goes on in one's head when they reason a connection between armor tanking EM resistence and shield tanking explosive resistence? Can anyone explain it to me? Is the entire logic really based on the idea that both of them involve tanking and both have 60% default resist on one of the 4 damage types? If someone thinks that lowering EM resist is a boost to Amarr, then wouldn't lowering of shield explosive resist be a boost to Minmatar? by the same surface-level thinking? Sorry if this sounds ranty
Balooshinakus Slug Storm Squadron	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:14:00 - [51] Originally by: Rells The interesting thing is how these same whiners attack this post as "whining about the whiners." Nice self-supporting logic there. But then I did expect flames so shrug. There are several reasons that people flame you Rells, and none of them have anything to do with your ideas, they all have to do with how you present them. Let's see here.. Originally by: Rells This SEWER is driving the game down the road of WOW. Because the people here lack imagination and skill in PvP it is being dumbed down, patch by patch. In case you were wondering, people generally don't respond well to you when you come to their home and tell them it's the sewer. Politicians don't run for office and say "This country is the sewer, you guys are all idiots, VOTE FOR ME!!1!" and win. If you want anyone to take you seriously, cut the insults. Originally by: Rells Now there are developers making changes to the game that no nothing about the game. In fact I would venture to say some of them have never even played the game. CCP is not going to read through your threads if you start them off by saying the developers are making changes so stupid that there is no possible way they even play the game. Why would they? If you were at work and someone came up to you and said "You're an idiot, why are you using that code for your program, have you ever even programmed before.....?" would you take their advice or tell them to **** off? Rhetorical question. Here's what it boils down to: Your attitude sucks, big time. Nobody is going to take you serious if you come on the forums and tell us that we are all idiots. If you want people to listen to you try taking a more mature attitude about posting.
Troyd23	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:19:00 - [52] Edited by: Troyd23 on 21/02/2008 21:20:00 OP: My concern ( like yours ) is that the game doesn't become ruined by the dev's giving in to the whiners. Star wars galaxies is "dead" proof of this. Lets all hope eve doesn't end up like SWG ._.
Back Again Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Ouch! That really hurts! I'm curious if there will be some debate and argument to counter this or some explanation... That reminds me of what happened to the character Jenny (you know who I'm talking about) and the several owners that came to the forum to talk about their ideas and confused us all. No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!!
DrAtomic Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:38:00 - [54] The whole issue is not so much the nerfing as the way the nerfing is done in; it's done without consideration of the wider game impact or as to what shifts will happen as a result, plus if something is obviously overnerfed it takes 6 months to 1 year to rebalance it into something somewhat usefull again. Then add to that, the lack of trying to avoid nerfing and changing stuff through giving love to other parts which has a far less negative impact on the way game (re)balance is received and perceived by the community. The nerf everything to crap team and lets call it a boost forgets about real life time investement the skillpoint system has, specialicing into a specific direction often means training times of 1 year and another half year to a year to respecialize into something else. Lot's of recent changes have gone from large scale nerfs to game core hitting nerfs like the carrier and base resist nerfs, issues raised on both those matters by the community are simply ignored or shrugged of with a we tested this so it's good (we are smart guys plus our ego > then your knowlegde). Then surprise surprise the effects on live are indeed as predidcted by the community and yet again ignored. If CCP intends the behaviour then fine, say so, however they say they mean it to have other effects then those that are achieved. Chechlist should be imho: 1.) identify issue 2.) identify what intended design was 3.) identify the impacts of the issue on community 4.) identify reason for issue 5.) verify reason for issue 6.) verify impact of the issue on the community 7.) verify if issue really is an issue even though intended design might be off 8.) identify possible solutions 9.) sort possible solutions from positive impact on community to negative 10.) see which the most positive solutions are achievable 11.) propose solutions to community through devblog giving multiple options, interact with the community for set period of time (i.e. 7 days) 12.) make choice based on feedback or go back to the drawingboard starting from 1 13.) announce choice made 14.) program the biatch and announce deployment time (ie will be in patch 1.1 or 1.2 right now it feels like it is: 1.) identify issue 2.) sift through years of feedback on it (forgetting the timeframe and environment of that feedback) 3.) think of a way to solve it through nerfing the effect of the issue 4.) have a nerf programed and published on Sisi 5.) announce nerf couple of days later 6.) respond in feedback that you've really thought it through and that people should go to sisi to test it themselves because you assume they wont 7.) ignore valid concerns 8.) bring it live 9.) have a laugh for months to come over your early morning coffee reading the whine threads about it (the more whine threads the better you've nerfed something with each thread giving 10 points and each post 1 point, double the points mods need to intervene, tripple the points if you **ed off someone from goonswarm, minus 100 points for every time someone likes your nerf. 10.) update your points on the internal website (make note to allocate resources to have a dev automate this) and check to see if you are the number one all time nerf devil from hell yet. 11.) ignore the effects the nerf caused for at least 6 months untill you stop scoring points with it and then maybe unnerf it slightly to refule the fire. - - - Originally by:** CCP Wrangler If you can understand our goal, disagree with our solution and offer a solution that is equal or better your opinion has a better chance of being heard...
Back Again Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.02.21 21:54:00 - [55] Originally by: DrAtomic The nerf everything to crap team and lets call it a boost forgets about real life time investement the skillpoint system has, specialicing into a specific direction often means training times of 1 year and another half year to a year to respecialize into something else. I think this is exactly what CCP want us to do, this is a business for them. Unfortunately, for the community, this is not a business and there will be some consequences if these points-of-view start to disagree so much about the game: If the players don't have fun CCP will not have the money. No signature here, only the bright light of a ship exploding right in front of me... Ohhh, wait, I'm in a pod!! It was my ship!!!
El Sombrero	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:08:00 - [56] Edited by: El Sombrero on 21/02/2008 22:08:27 Originally by: Gemini Zero Rells whines ... Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Wait... I'm confused. Which is it "Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots" or Linkage
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:16:00 - [57] Originally by: El Sombrero Edited by: El Sombrero on 21/02/2008 22:08:27 Originally by: Gemini Zero Rells whines ... Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Wait... I'm confused. Which is it "Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots" or Linkage He is ex agony with a publicly professedd desire to destroy AGONY. Wont work but I suppose everyone needs a hobby. Still celebrating over a gank of my interceptor while I was AFK in high sec no doubt. The post isnt even about those specific changes anyway. Its about CCP doing things cluelessly. If they talk long and hard about it and decide to nerf insta-undocks, just as an example, and then blog about it and do it, that is one thing. To accidentally break them to keep people rom bouncing off each other in Jita is just catastrophically misinformed and arbitrary. The nano changes that created the nanophoon are a good example. Despite the repeated warnings by test users of 11k/s battleships, CCP put it in anyway. And now we have Zulupark whom I doubt even played Eve very much before nerfing it and appling clueless "fixes". Oh ya and Im beyond caring about the flaming. Go ahead and flame, it will just bump the thread.
Jason Travers Space 1999	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:19:00 - [58] What I think is funny about this whole post is that it seems all the downhill changes to the game were from whiners. Now the ironic part. Almost all the postings (whines) that got game changes were from the PVP community as most of the board posters are PVPers and they clame itÆs the carebears ruining the game for PVPers when it is actually themselves doing it ROFL.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:25:00 - [59] Originally by: Rells He is ex agony with a publicly professedd desire to destroy AGONY. Wont work but I suppose everyone needs a hobby. For the last time we do not have a desire to destroy Agony, nor have I publicly proclaimed it! Hell I still have some good friends in Agony and I'll still say Agony's basic class is the best thing since sliced bread. We are moving to the other side of the universe, what more proof do you need that we are not out to take down Agony. It's just nice to debate about things openly without fear of repercussions since I'm no longer in corp.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:34:00 - [60] Originally by: Jason Travers What I think is funny about this whole post is that it seems all the downhill changes to the game were from whiners. Now the ironic part. Almost all the postings (whines) that got game changes were from the PVP community as most of the board posters are PVPers and they clame itÆs the carebears ruining the game for PVPers when it is actually themselves doing it ROFL. No, you simply arent understanding. That there are issues in the game... yes. That these issues need to be fixed ... yes. That they should be fixed with kneejerk reactions based upon percieved opinions of the forum posters .... NO. I gave two examples before of poor process. Both of them driven by the whine and both the WRONG solution to the issue at hand and both of them with almost NO CONSIDERATION of their impact on the wider game
Taedrin Gallente Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:41:00 - [61] I rewrote this post 3 times already, so I'm just going to say this: Rells: Please think about what you are saying before you hit that post button. I HIGHLY doubt that there is ANYONE who works on EVE, who has not played it. If you know that, then please don't resort to using Ad Hominem to argue your point. Insulting the devs does not, a proper argument make.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 22:48:00 - [62] Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:04:00 - [64] Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Rhaegor Stormborn Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:32:00 - [65] Originally by: Avon Remember what happened to Ultima Online? Yeah, exactly. Hi CCP. Volition Cult Recruitment Post
Alvar Ursidae Amarr Oceanic Soldiers of Fortune Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.02.21 23:58:00 - [66] Face it Rells, you're a meglomaniacal whiney ***. You insult the people who make the game, and expect them to take you seriously. But you are so wrapped up in how absolutely perfect you are, that you ignore common sense. You know, things like using cloaks on faction fitted Rapiers in 0.0 etc...and subsequently losing nearly 1bil in two ships in a few minutes. The undock change makes things interesting, but you are so negative about everything, paranoid about everyone, and in love with yourself to think of the good it will bring. So as you asked the other day, why do you bother playing? 1 Curse killed your faction fitted curse, AND your alt's Rapier, with your high SP total. And now you can the makers, the community, and everyone that's NOT licking your *. Why do you bother playing any more? Seriously. Why do you bother? OH, sorry I know, you have to bring up your psy-ops and krav maga.... Then there are the sycophantic follwers you have to do that *** loving you like so much. Stop contributing to the whine - build a bridge and get over it.
Gemini Zero Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:34:00 - [67] ruh roh ibtl
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:36:00 - [68] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Jason Travers What I think is funny about this whole post is that it seems all the downhill changes to the game were from whiners. Now the ironic part. Almost all the postings (whines) that got game changes were from the PVP community as most of the board posters are PVPers and they clame itÆs the carebears ruining the game for PVPers when it is actually themselves doing it ROFL. No, you simply arent understanding. That there are issues in the game... yes. That these issues need to be fixed ... yes. That they should be fixed with kneejerk reactions based upon percieved opinions of the forum posters .... NO. I gave two examples before of poor process. Both of them driven by the whine and both the WRONG solution to the issue at hand and both of them with almost NO CONSIDERATION of their impact on the wider game So you complain about CCP responding to whine posts, yet you are one of the top forum whiners in the game. Are you like one of those child molesters who volunteer for chemical castration because they know they are evil and cannot stop themselves? Are you asking for CCP to ban you and other whiners from the forum so that we aren't constantly inundated with your BS and to save you form yourselves? Please god tell me that's what you are asking for. ----------------------------------------------------
Lindsay Fox	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:38:00 - [69] I think the problem here is one of attitude. I view the constant nerfing, random changes etc as simply another facet of the harsh experience that is Eve. Adapt or die. I really couldn't give a crap who is being listened to and who isn't. If it ever gets to the point where Eve is so different from what I originally enjoyed that I can no longer enjoy it, then I'll leave. I find it interesting that this aspect of the game, this 'OMG they listened to the whiners and now my fun is ruined' is exactly what happens in real life. The government makes and changes laws regularly based on an extremely vocal minority, and these changes will often cause businesses to become unprofitable, communities become unrecognisable...hell people sometimes end up in jail because the rules have changed and things they used to be able to do are no longer allowed. If you can't handle the change aspect of Eve, you haven't got much hope of getting the most out of life in general.
Barry Steelcross	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:51:00 - [70] Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"?
Alvar Ursidae Amarr Oceanic Soldiers of Fortune Black Scope Project	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Barry Steelcross Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"? FTW!
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 21/02/2008 22:48:54 Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. Every single word above is SO GOD DAMN TRUE that I had to wipe tears out of my face. I started in beta as well and felt ever since revelations 1.0 that eve is fading more and more away from the great dream the devs once shared with us a dark harsh cruel world centered around pvp. it somehow failed Avon, you are definately the smartest arguing person on earth right behind DigitalCommunist. congrats Greetings Grim
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:05:00 - [73] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 21/02/2008 06:38:51 I remember when the developers of this game had a vision. They pursued the vision and told anyone who didnt like it to suck it up or get out. The vision was based on PvP and balance of the game. Im sorry to say that is no longer the case. Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. There was the famous nano-phoon imbalance that caused a massive imbalance in the game for months despite being profusely reported by testers. There was also the famous ECM nerf; people whines about ECM ships and then CCP whacked it with a stick without any consideration about the wider impact on the game. It took them 4 or 5 months to come out with a fix to ths ships they crippled. The story goes on and on and continues to be messed up. Now there are developers making changes to the game that no nothing about the game. In fact I would venture to say some of them have never even played the game. The prime example is the interdictor speed nerf. Only someone who has not even played the game could make the asinine statement that nano ships are impossible to catch even with dedicated web or nos ships. Only a person that has never flown an interdictor would come to the stupid conclusion that because the Sabre is the fastest dictor, all of them should be speed nerfed. And only someone with very little experience in the game would categorically remove undocks from the game for the purposes of spreading out people coming out of Jita IV-4. So why the changes? Quite simply its the loudest whine on these forums -- forums that have, in the past, told people to commit suicide in real life and laughed when someone did. This SEWER is driving the game down the road of WOW. Because the people here lack imagination and skill in PvP it is being dumbed down, patch by patch. To what end I wonder? To catch the WoW crowd? Is it now just another studio with care only of money? Where is the vision now? There should be a requirement that all devs have to play this game for more than 1000 hours over half a year before being allowed to propose any changes to the game. They should have to participate in PvP and in alliance warfare and 0.0 living before making pathetic changes like nerfing all undocks for a trite reason. They need to do this before the game totally explodes. They also should form a committee of players that have experience in various areas such as tactics, territorial warfare, production and economics to advise the developers just why their sweeping changes are wrong for the game. Yes, I know I'm about to get flamed but I dont really give a (water retaining structure) anymore. Ive said my piece. /signed Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.02.22 01:12:00 - [74] Originally by: Avon Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. back in beta and 2003, as far as i remember, I thought that agents were ONLY introduced to be a stepstone to player created missions for pvp targets. I could never belive my eyes everytime they advanced npc agent missions more and more. I thought for what reason does ccp put so much effort in a system which will be gone soon anyway. For me in the beginning npc agents stayed to give newbees!!! a chance to learn more about combat however I never ever envisioned it to become a profession and all that in high sec. Greetings Grim
Kalil d'Maelstromo D.M.T inc	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:29:00 - [75] Originally by: Gemini Zero Originally by: Rells Over the last few major patches decisions have clearly been made based upon whine level on the forums and in half considered matters. Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market Rells whines about invincible motherships: Linkage ...dev's introduce heavy dictors ending the invincible mothership Rells whines about regularly spawning complexes: Linkage ...dev's change complexes to explorable content making them more accessible to the masses Rells whines about speed battleships, weak amarr ships, remote DD detonation, t2 bpo lotto, and carrier jumping of supplies Linkage ...devs nerfed speed mods, boosted amarr, nerfed remote dd, removed the lotto, and nerfed carrier jumping of supplies Are you sure you don't want to rethink your stance on public whine? You sure are doing pretty well so far... Heh if I remember I will be sending youa lil'isk dontation for that post, feel free to remind me ;-) Originally by: Thor Xian I use a named WCS called "Situational Awareness".
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:30:00 - [76] Originally by: Barry Steelcross Rells are you sure you're certed for "Advanced Whine"? Know your limit, Whine within it! -- For heresy against CCP by posting images of the sacrificial goat Zulupark you are banished for two weeks - Wrangler
FluffyBunnyPuPu COAD Alts United	Posted - 2008.02.22 02:44:00 - [77] Edited by: FluffyBunnyPuPu on 22/02/2008 02:44:24
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries United For 0rder	Posted - 2008.02.22 03:00:00 - [78] Originally by: Avon Originally by: nahtoh How many of the changes have been caused by PvP players taking the micky to the extreme? You can't deney that its happened like that in some cases Avon. Sure, some. But I don't think that fixing broken mechanics is the same as introducing high-sec isk spawning by chatting to an agent, for example. Point, can eject mechanics in counter point I am sure some of the same type of comments the rells is making when that came out... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Jack Rips	Posted - 2008.02.22 04:05:00 - [79] Originally by: Taedrin I rewrote this post 3 times already, so I'm just going to say this: Rells: Please think about what you are saying before you hit that post button. I HIGHLY doubt that there is ANYONE who works on EVE, who has not played it. If you know that, then please don't resort to using Ad Hominem to argue your point. Insulting the devs does not, a proper argument make. Who do you think you are Yoda! (a propa argument make?) i for one doubt Rells set out to insult the devs, i think the fella is upset that there is yet more nerfing. I am as well, i for one hate spending time training a skill or multiple skills to do a job that sed skills where intended to do only to have them nerfed. I have been playing eve long enough to have felt the sting of the nerf bat, i'm caldari and i still havent forgiven ccp for the missile nerf's. I bet the nerf bat gets you one day. You will want to complain, i do hope myself or Rells is around to see your post. "A proper argument make is this?"
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 04:12:00 - [80] So ok a little background on me first, i was around just after launch and played for around 4 months then left due to RL issues and the fact that the game wasnt really that playable at launch. I recently returned and am impressed with how the game has progressed over the years. First point to the OP, if you are the hardened Eve king you suggest you are surely you have seen this happen hundreds of times, even back when i first played nearly every nerfbat was brought on by constant whining from sections of the player base. Its no different now, and i guarantee if they ignored everyone and did their own thing that you'd probably whine about that. Also as some one else here pointed out, 9 times out of 10 the reason they wield the nerfbat is because a minority of players latch onto an exploit and ram it so hard down everyones throats that action has to be taken. I remember back when mOo used to gate camp High sec space regularly, i left before this was resolved but thats impossible now and high sec is safer than ever. Is Eve poorer for it - yes probably it is, but if it hadnt been changed slowly everyone would have got bored long ago and left and then you wouldnt be able to come here and whine or play eve at all. And thats just one example i know of, im sure there are hundreds of similar cases were exploits of game mechanics have led to nerfings, well all i can say is suck it up, if people cant play fair expect things to get nerfed. And as many say eve is harsh (you included) if you cant adapt to whatever it throws at you (and that includes some change which may make it more difficult for you) then move on.. As for the issue of making it more PvE friendly and high-sec missioning i really dont see the big deal. Even way back when if you so desired you could happily earn loads sitting in high sec trading or mining with little risk, i see the agents as CCP giving people who dont want to always do PVP as having a task to fulfil other than mining. I mean really why do you care if some guy spends years farming isk in missions??? How in any way does that detract from your gaming experience. And tbh agents were always supposed to be a bigger deal than they were at launch, they were broken and bugged then but CCP always said they would eventually be more important. Anyway to the OP basically suck it up mate and move on to another game or adapt and stop whining.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:06:00 - [81] Originally by: Shadowsword Originally by: Rells ...curious stuff about ignoring comments of the players and listening to whine at the same time... Name one single balance change that doesn't make sense, and you might have a point. What you dismiss so easily as whine (and what an idiot thing to do), are quite often logical arguments about things that aren't balanced in Eve, and it reach big proportions when said unbalanced become widely used. Do you honeslty think speed-tanking is fine, depite precision light missiles doing 0.0 damage, and warrior II becoming the only light drones to use because the others are too slow? Do you honestly think ECM was fine, when everyone and their dogs were fitting them on their ships? Sure, CCP sometimes screw-up and ignore warnings from players about what they're doing (Doomsday anyone?). That still doesn't mean anything related to whine. The problem is not so much the whine it is the response that comes out of it. Generally the EVE players DO know what is going on and there will be a handful of enlightened souls who will speak from experience and give CCP a real good solution to the problem being whinned about...Then CCP, of late, goes and does something completely different that does not help. Your Nano thing for instance, what are they going to do about that? Maybe Nerf everyone's speed massively? It is a likely fix, but maybe instead of NERFING things they should Buff something. Why not make those stupid slow as dirt missiles faster like IRL? Why not give those drones some more push on those tiny little hulls of theirs? Speed up some stuff so it can catch those Nano Ships a little more readily instead of nerfing the Nano Ships. Accomplishes the same thing while making it more worthwhile to train skills rather than making certain modules and skills WORTH LESS. Add Value, do not Subtract it. As for Corrupt Commitees, that is why they would be chosen carefuly, be responsible back to the population of EVE and the Devs, and ultimately the final word would still be from the Devs. The Council would "Advise" not "Code". +++++++++++++++ For the LAST time... Keep your UGLY Typhoon off my SEXY Hurricane
Jack Freely Perkone	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:14:00 - [82] WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand.
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:23:00 - [83] re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:32:00 - [84] Edited by: Hippy Dave on 22/02/2008 05:35:47 Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. You actually quit cause they nerfed drones?!? Thats seriously lame.... well dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out Amazing isnt it how many supposed hard core EVE players there are who constantly say stuff like 'EVE is harsh adapt or die' to whining new players will then cancel their sub cause their shiny big ass capital ship suddenly loses 5% worth of resists or some other aspect they rely on gets altered... Dont get me wrong if you are bored of EVE by all means leave, its only a game. But to expect the game to go your way all the time and then *** and whine when it doesnt it pointless, if you dont like how a game is being developed (any game) move on, theres better things to do with your life. Originally by:** Jack Freely WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand. Well said
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:36:00 - [85] Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. You actually quit cause they nerfed drones?!? Thats seriously lame.... well dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out Originally by: Jack Freely WAAAA WAAAAA I want a hard core pvp game where I can rob, loot, and kill people anywhere I find them. I want a game where no one is safe. So will I get this if I keep it up? And why can't we tank Concord, I want to experience the Moo camps first hand. Well said Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? . . They Really Are PansieS!
Hippy Dave	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:42:00 - [86] Originally by: Thomas Redux Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? No im clearly not as im responding to you in English... And ok so a string of similarly random changes forced you to leave cause why? Ill bet its cause suddenly your uber fit/money making process/exploit/whatever it was didnt work anymore. As i said above (i edited as you replied) fine if you dont like it then see ya later, i did the same many years back.. Difference is i didnt come to the forums to anounce this to everyone, clearly you still have feelings for the game or you wouldnt even be looking at the forums.... Just kiss and make up or move on forever is my advice
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:48:00 - [87] Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Thomas Redux Are you illiterate? The drones was the last thing I said, it wasn't the reason I quit it was just one. Learn to comprehend what you are reading. I had just trained an alt to use gallente drone ships only to have the drone nerf happen two days after getting the skills for a HAC. There were many other reasons, and since then there have been other changes I don't like. Why would anyone continue to pay to play a game they no longer like anyway? No im clearly not as im responding to you in English... And ok so a string of similarly random changes forced you to leave cause why? Ill bet its cause suddenly your uber fit/money making process/exploit/whatever it was didnt work anymore. As i said above (i edited as you replied) fine if you dont like it then see ya later, i did the same many years back.. Difference is i didnt come to the forums to anounce this to everyone, clearly you still have feelings for the game or you wouldnt even be looking at the forums.... Just kiss and make up or move on forever is my advice You're making a lot of assumptions. I come to the forums because I still have friends wo play and I still keep up with the goings on. Nothing forced me to leave, I told you I wasn't happy with the changes so I left. I'll ask again, why pay for something I'm not happy with? As for losing my isk making? No ask the guy who bought my former main, Smantha Dering. I was running level 4s in a nighthawk. Isk making was not a concern, not only that I had the skill for research but no inclination, he's added to research skills and now makes isk doing both. I know this because it was a friend who took over my character by character transfer to his account. This is a discussion about changes right? I am discussing how the changes affected me, if you can't deal with that then too bad for you. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Thomas Redux Redux Command	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:52:00 - [88] By the way, since I paid for this subscription and it hasn't run out yet, I have as much right to post here as any other paid subscription. . . They Really Are PansieS!
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:43:00 - [89] Originally by: Avon Just to clarify my position: I bought in to Eve right back in the beta. The promise was for a ruthless PvP based game. We were told there would be no compromise on that. We were told that CCP would stay true to the vision, and that it would not be compromised for popularity. We were told that CCP would rather that Eve was the biggest niche mmog, rather than another mainstream effort. Now, I fully understand the pressures on CCP to succeed, and I don't blame them for making Eve what it is now. However, it really isn't what we bought in to in the early days. It isn't the vision that kept a loyal subscriber-base paying up each month, keeping the vision alive. I understand that people who have joined later have a different viewpoint, and I accept that pov entirely, but please do not tell us that we aren't allowed to be dissapointed that our dream has been taken away from us. We are entitled to be a little frustrated. Eve is a great game, of that there is no doubt. It is not, however, the uncompromising PvP game we were promised. PvPers of all countries , unite Originally by: ivan draco we didnt want your post anyway
Kyoto Luyi MX3 Development Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.22 06:55:00 - [90] Originally by: Thomas Redux re the OP I agree completely, EVE has changed in enough bad ways that I have canceled my subscription. I stopped enjoying EVE in back in the fall, but really began to hate it when trinity came and when drones got wtf nerfed. Stuff plz! kkthxbye... I really don't understand why anyone hangs around and whines about a game they no longer play. Time to move on. Get an analyst, try some therapy, maybe join a soccer team? Hmm?
Vested Interest	Posted - 2008.02.22 07:04:00 - [91] Originally by: Gemini Zero Rells whines about the way the market works: Linkage ...dev's change market I don't see where they fixed this yet and it's a legit beef imo.
Fofalus III ELEMENTS	Posted - 2008.02.22 07:36:00 - [92] Edited by: Fofalus on 22/02/2008 07:36:43 Can we please stop focusing on the failure of the op:0 Originally by: Gemini Zero insert text of owning Rells and more of the point: Originally by: Agil TradeAlt While game balance changes are always going to happen, what I dont get is the CCP approach to things. For example, ECM was genuinly borked, only because of the 20 second jam time. Everyone agreed ECM would be fin if it just broke locks and thats it. What does CCP do? Nerf ECM insted of fixing it. Sensor Dampners were borked because people could use 3-4 of them and their target could not lock them. People said "Easy sensor dampner fix is have the victim's abilities uneffected vs the dampner". Thus, the dampner becomes a gang module insted of a omg wtf, and this also discorages a dampner gang. People were happy with this. What does CCP do? Nerf Dampning insted of fixing it Tracking disrupters have long been the joke of EW. Just because its Amarr, people laughed even more at it. People asking for just about anything to make this viable. What does CCP do? Massively nerf TD's insted of fixing it. PvP in this game is good. However, people used stuff like wcs, nano, cloak, logon traps, logoff when in danger and a whole lot of other stupid stuff that is the REAL problem. People flying 27km/s nanomaches with 45km scrams (gangmember in claymore) are the new invincible. With weapons such as cruise, the new nanomachs are the i-win button and competent players cannot be beaten. And if you assemble a force to beat them, then the nanomach will simply MWD to gate and jump out in 1 second. So CCP - can you fix this borked nano concept once and for all? The crowd of people who just huddled around the first post I quoted was some sort of god are as bad as the OP. This guy listed several changes that directly supported the OPs point and you guys casually ignored it. I guess this brings more truth to the rule "All your carefully picked arguments can be ignored." I have yet to see anyone argue a good side to any of these things. Sure they finnaly fixed ECM on caldari but after how long? And they figured out how to balance the ECM on specialized ships with the ECM fiasco but failed to do that with Gallente and Amarr. There is clearly a step missing in the design procedure and it is the listening to the feedback of your testers. Hell even listening to the feedback of the community once it hits live is ignored. So when all positive posts are ignored we are left with two conclusions. Either the devs do not play the game or that the devs are going based off the whines of the forums. Both of which the OP stated and anyone has yet to counter. Edit: Inserted line breaks to remove wall of text.
Segge Bolled Caldari Dirty Sexy Pilots	Posted - 2008.02.22 09:00:00 - [93] Originally by: Rells He is ex agony with a publicly professedd desire to destroy AGONY. I know my CEO has already taken the time to properly address this blatant fallacy, but I want to make sure the record is set completely straight for the sake of pilots still in AGONY. Aside from being totally untrue, I can only assume the seed of this unfortunate falsity stems from certain unguarded comments I made during the time I was leaving AGONY and obviously these comments weren't taken in the proper context or have otherwise been misinterpreted. Even if the portrait of Joss does look a bit like that of Gemini, we're not in fact the same person. I apologize for anything I've said causing such concerns to AGONY pilots, besides which, AGONY looked more it it'd crumble than burn at the time. Still if you so desire to do so, sling the forum fertilizer in COAD next time, Rells. Originally by: Rells Still celebrating over a gank of my interceptor while I was AFK in high sec no doubt. Actually, that was mostly the work of myself and Quen than Gemini. Credit where credit is due, please! Though in future, I strongly suggest that if you can't afford to lose it Rells, don't exit the station in it ... having fit poly-carbs to it ... then go AFK off a gate in Torrinos (or, indeed, anywhere) ... after having previously **ed off the now ex-AGONY who can manage the basic math of Rupture + Thrasher = cheap kicks at your expense. If you're only going to bring the whining onto EVE-O as well, that is. After all, Concord only provides consequences, not protection, etc. Originally by:** Rells Oh ya and Im beyond caring about the flaming. Really? Because I clearly recall that a series of flames which you set yourself up for while posting here was the whole reason you tried to throw AGONY onto Phalanx Alliance a little while ago. I'm happy to see you've matured since then
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.02.22 10:08:00 - [94] This thread is 2 derails short of Aamtrak.
Korkoff	Posted - 2008.02.22 11:11:00 - [95] Edited by: Korkoff on 22/02/2008 11:12:11 Well if they make changes based on whine lvl let me get this one in. I came back to the game a few months ago but really just to train my main toon. I took out, correction tried to take out my nightmare for the first time this morning only to find that none and I mean none of my systems were fit. It seems they changed everything on that ship. 8 highs now only 6, still 4 turrets but no missiles. Lots of mid slots, on a armor tanker and only 4 lows, oh they changed it to a shield tanker. The ship is now totally usless. I paid 800 mil for the ship and god knows what to fit it, now its totally usless. A scorp or a geddon are better ships and they are a 10th the cost or less. CCP pull your heads out of your asses!
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:15:00 - [96] I think the OP has rather missed the point. These days new items are released pre-nerfed, because it's often easier to modify something to improve it, than to nerf it back when it becomes too popular (and hence has already done damage). Eve is so complex now, with all of the balances needed, that you will never get it right first time, so change has to happen. The question is whether or not any given change makes it to the top of the list of priorities and yes, often player gripes are considered important enough to do that. With the latest Meme traveling around Eve really quickly, it doesn't take long for the player base to demonstrate that something is broken to the developers. Sometimes of course, CCP will adopt a "wait and see" policy, because trends can be countered. CCP have to deal with the laws of unintended consequences at every turn. With respect to Avon's complaint (I've been reading it from him since beta 6!), I do not understand how he can say Eve isn't a "hardcore PvP" game. Where exactly in your 0.0 empire is it not possible to engage in PvP as it was intended? Unless the issue is that you want to be able to do that all over empire? In which case, you need to explain your motivation here, beyond the pure "because it's a hardcore PvP game". It is rather nonsensical to cling to a philosophical position when that position neither harms nor benefits the way you want to live your virtual life. To the benefit, Eve is less harsh now for the new player than when it was when I started playing (2003). Who would argue that is a bad thing?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.02.22 13:15:00 - [97] Originally by: Andrue CCP is a company and it will always go where the money is. If you want to start your own company and develop a niche MMORPG that never gets more than a few thousand subscribers then nothing's stopping you trying. Last time I checked CCP donÆt have to answer to any stockowners. HavenÆt reviewed their balance-sheet but I canÆt imagine why they wouldnÆt manage the payments on their mortgage. Soà IÆd put it as ôCCP is a company with a vision and seeks to reach as many people possible with that visionö. Yeah, I agree that CCP wants money, but I doubt we share the same opinion of why. I think that (considering that the founders still seem to run the company) they, as many other companies, seek profit for reinvesting into the company so that they can reach more consumers with their product. A companyÆs main interest is often to expand. ItÆs the external parties that have interest in the company who expects returns. Originally by: Andrue The only point I'm making here is that Eve is doing very well and expecting CCP to have a change of heart and start making it nasty again is a waste of time. It is what it is because if you want a long term game (and why else bother with an MMORPG) you have to cater for the carebears. I take it that you've done a survey of the different segments of the MMOG-community if you feel comfortable posting this.
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.03.08 22:32:00 - [98] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Andrue CCP is a company and it will always go where the money is. If you want to start your own company and develop a niche MMORPG that never gets more than a few thousand subscribers then nothing's stopping you trying. Last time I checked CCP don’t have to answer to any stockowners. Haven’t reviewed their balance-sheet but I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t manage the payments on their mortgage. So… I’d put it as “CCP is a company with a vision and seeks to reach as many people possible with that vision”. Yeah, I agree that CCP wants money, but I doubt we share the same opinion of why. I think that (considering that the founders still seem to run the company) they, as many other companies, seek profit for reinvesting into the company so that they can reach more consumers with their product. A company’s main interest is often to expand. It’s the external parties that have interest in the company who expects returns. Originally by: Andrue The only point I'm making here is that Eve is doing very well and expecting CCP to have a change of heart and start making it nasty again is a waste of time. It is what it is because if you want a long term game (and why else bother with an MMORPG) you have to cater for the carebears. I take it that you've done a survey of the different segments of the MMOG-community if you feel comfortable posting this. niche game ... imo eve was on the right path, whoever struck oveur with the nerfbat should be put right next inbetween an alien and a predator. I have clear evidence eg. of instas which would be removed while not giving everyone the ability to warp to 0. Up from this point onwards it got worse and worse. Since then the carebears just seem to get more and more love. why? I dont know. There is no single niche game out their and I really bet my soul that eve would have that much subscriber as it has now with way less carebears in it. Every change they do now is a compromise, which utterly fails to please anyone. Either go the hardcore way or go the carebearism way I really dont care but as long as you ccp guys tease us with your "cold harsh world" I will stay and moan why it just isnt like that at all. I also feel that the forums really got that bad in terms of flames aso. cuz you ccp try just that, to please all of us. DONT DO IT, choose a direction and you will have a happier community. (be it carebear or pvper) Greetings Grim
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.03.08 22:33:00 - [99] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Andrue CCP is a company and it will always go where the money is. If you want to start your own company and develop a niche MMORPG that never gets more than a few thousand subscribers then nothing's stopping you trying. Last time I checked CCP don’t have to answer to any stockowners. Haven’t reviewed their balance-sheet but I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t manage the payments on their mortgage. So… I’d put it as “CCP is a company with a vision and seeks to reach as many people possible with that vision”. Yeah, I agree that CCP wants money, but I doubt we share the same opinion of why. I think that (considering that the founders still seem to run the company) they, as many other companies, seek profit for reinvesting into the company so that they can reach more consumers with their product. A company’s main interest is often to expand. It’s the external parties that have interest in the company who expects returns. Originally by: Andrue The only point I'm making here is that Eve is doing very well and expecting CCP to have a change of heart and start making it nasty again is a waste of time. It is what it is because if you want a long term game (and why else bother with an MMORPG) you have to cater for the carebears. I take it that you've done a survey of the different segments of the MMOG-community if you feel comfortable posting this. niche game ... imo eve was on the right path, whoever struck oveur with the nerfbat should be put right next inbetween an alien and a predator. I have clear evidence eg. of instas which would be removed while not giving everyone the ability to warp to 0. Up from this point onwards it got worse and worse. Since then the carebears just seem to get more and more love. why? I dont know. There is no single niche game out their and I really bet my soul that eve would have that much subscriber as it has now with way less carebears in it. Every change they do now is a compromise, which utterly fails to please anyone. Either go the hardcore way or go the carebearism way I really dont care but as long as you ccp guys tease us with your "cold harsh world" I will stay and moan why it just isnt like that at all. I also feel that the forums really got that bad in terms of flames aso. cuz you ccp try just that, to please all of us. DONT DO IT, choose a direction and you will have a happier community. (be it carebear or pvper) Greetings Grim
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.08 23:28:00 - [100] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 08/03/2008 23:29:51 Grim I'm not sure why you're quoting me. My post explained why a company doesn't have to cater to the big masses to thrive. I defended the notion of CCP choosing a smaller market segment and why they don't necessarily have to choose the path that equals the biggest profit. I wasn't (in the post you quoted, haven't checked the rest of this old thread tbh) arguing wether not they focused on the bigger masses or the carebears if you like. If you quoted me by misstake then please say so. If not please be more specific about what you agree or disagree with because I have a hard time finding that out to be frank. Originally by: Grim Vandal niche game ... imo eve was on the right path, whoever struck oveur with the nerfbat should be put right next inbetween an alien and a predator. I have clear evidence eg. of instas which would be removed while not giving everyone the ability to warp to 0. Up from this point onwards it got worse and worse. Since then the carebears just seem to get more and more love. Not releveant to my post but I agree that alot of patches has made life better or easier for the high-sec and non-combat people. On the other hand you can also see alot of content added for the combat people. I haven't given this balance-issue much thought but I do get the impression that the changes made for the non-combatants are more game-mechanic oriented (wtz, buffed concord, privateerpatch) and that the changes made for the PvPers are content oriented (ships ect). I would much rather have it the other way since I think the gamemechanics of a game identifies or classifies its core nature (eg PvP-oriented or pve oriented). And, yes. Allthough PvPers get new ships frequently I find this very saddening. More ships are like more toys when new gamemechanics can mean being adopted to central Mogadishu. It's time for some gamemechanics that reinforces (what I believe is) Eve's core values before they are lost tbqfh. Originally by: Grim Vandal why? I dont know. There is no single niche game out their and I really bet my soul that eve would have that much subscriber as it has now with way less carebears in it. I think theyÆd have to alter their marketing a lot if they would like to sustain this many subscribers in a much harsher game. ItÆs a mystery to me why CCP doesnÆt utilize the (more or less) unique selling points that their product already possess. Judging from their advertising IÆd expect them to get roleplayers in masses. DonÆt think IÆve ever seen an advertisement from CCP where they really emphasize the true distinguishing characteristics (free-form PvP, superior economic aspects, Eve-(player to player)politics) of Eve. Originally by: Grim Vandal Every change they do now is a compromise, which utterly fails to please anyone. Either go the hardcore way or go the carebearism way I really dont care but as long as you ccp guys tease us with your "cold harsh world" I will stay and moan why it just isnt like that at all. CanÆt agree more with the last part. Choose on of the two and make it clear on which you are planning to work on. A world with heavy player to ôgameentityö interaction in with little to no liability of ones actions and low stakes. Or one with profound focus on player to player interaction in which you have to risk a lot to gain a lot and have to face the consequences of ones actions. IÆd like them to announce which way they are going so that I can either quit or get a life time sub.
Grim Vandal Caldari Burn Proof	Posted - 2008.03.08 23:48:00 - [101] I didnt mean to quote you on all but the niche game thougts of yours. Somehow the forum is going carzy today (double post ftw). I am just happy my post didnt vanish like ccp's big picture did. Originally by: Cpt Fina I’d like them to announce which way they are going so that I can either quit or get a life time sub. Yes, I asked that several times already manny years ago. Still no satisfying answer. By now I actually start to feel like I get scammed by ccp luring me with their "harsh gameworld" I so much would love to experience. Greetings Grim
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.09 00:46:00 - [102] Originally by: Grim Vandal Yes, I asked that several times already manny years ago. Still no satisfying answer. By now I actually start to feel like I get scammed by ccp luring me with their "harsh gameworld" I so much would love to experience. I'm getting the same wibes. The danger is if CCP implement alot of "bad" gamechanges over a long period to which PvPers wont react. Like the "frog in the boiling water" example.
Pantaloon McPants	Posted - 2008.03.09 01:16:00 - [103] Heaven forbid they shouldnt listen to there customers, dude seriously get a grip, the wild west hardcore period of eve is long gone, you should realize that by now its a different game. No longer is it the place where you are the only guy in 5 systems and everyone tips there hat when they pass you by, if anything the game has passed you by your just to slow to realize. If they left it upto you we would all still be flying dual mwd ravens and cruise caracals. At the end of the day its a friken game and ccps lively hood so why would they ** off there customer base to appease the 3% of eve that are HARD CORE!! PVP YEAH ALL DAY WOOO MY KB IS MY *. And to say ccp dont play this game is laughable, the tweaks they do in this game is for balance nothing more nothing less, they dont do it to ** you off, ofc they have checked every variable and because of there knowledge of the game even variables we arnt aware of publicly that might affect the outcome of a nerf. If anything you should be happy ccp listen to there customers and give them a place to whine and post and be merry. you big pooface (lol)

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