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Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:47:00 - [1] The call for more Eve shards has been made again and again the past few years. Most of the time it is not a second shard that people want, but they wish to have less lag, or concentrate fewer people in the same space. Sometimes people wish to return to old times, want more space to explore or break up the current power blocks. A second shard could possibly do this (except for the lag, lag will always be present), but one of Eve's main strengths is th single shard universe. I have posted an alternative to this issue a few times, but never in it's own thread, which I will do now: First off, let me begin by stating that one of the reasons I love Eve for the game it is, is because of the single shard universe. I seriously hope that will never change. I had an idea I like to call the Terminator Syndrome. In the Terminator movies one was able to travel through time, but there was no way to bring anything besides your naked body. Why not do that with space instead of time. We already have the IC tools, namely jump clones. Don't make a new game world, just add to the existing world. Maybe one of the empires or another power send an expeditionary force to some far away part of the galaxy (or even another galaxy) some few hundred years ago. Recently the expeditionary force has arrived, set up a cloning station and contacted the home world. (I believe there was an IC explanation for the theory behind jump clones and for real time communication over vast distances spanning hundreds of light years). The experimental phase of the expedition have now been completed and the empires are ready to send the consciousness of pod pilots over to the new cloning station to download into artificial bodies so the new part of the galaxy can be explored and exploited. In other words, we have new, virgin systems that pilots can go to, but no equipment can be taken along. All characters, politics and relationships will be maintained while still giving a new frontier that can't be instantly populated by the current huge alliances that could simply move in a few freighters and immediately drop down outposts and POSes. People could still jump clone between the old and new galaxy, of course. ISk could be taken along as it is digital money, but since the new part of space will start off with nothing up for sale ISk will be worth nothing at all. Everyone will have to build their own stuff until the new part of space can mature. One should make the costs to create a Jump Clone in the virgin systems very high and allow new characters to choose where they start their careers, in the old or the new world. Further more, one should make the Jump to the other 'galaxy' costly, either give it a Jumpo Clone timer of 7 days or add an ISK cost or something, as long as it will enhance the feeling of the two 'galaxies' to be vastly apart.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.21 12:56:00 - [2] Nah, shards are bad idea. If we get crowded just allow people to build their own stargates (to new systems) and population pressure will increase EVE territory until pressure is equalized by cost of stargate construction. Would also create rather nice isksink. As long as stargate construction is hassle enough and expencive enough it will not be done just for sake of 'moar systems' but only when population pressure (either globally or locally) is sufficently high.
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 13:01:00 - [3] Originally by: Carniflex Nah, shards are bad idea. As I said. I agree with no new shards. They -are- a bad idea. In fact I am fine with the game as is, I just tried to come up wit ha feature that would appeal to people who want a 2nd shard without actually adding a 2nd shard. Originally by: Carniflex If we get crowded just allow people to build their own stargates (to new systems) and population pressure will increase EVE territory until pressure is equalized by cost of stargate construction. Would also create rather nice isksink. As long as stargate construction is hassle enough and expencive enough it will not be done just for sake of 'moar systems' but only when population pressure (either globally or locally) is sufficently high. I like this idea as well. The main problem is that you would need to find a way to add systems in a balanced way. This also would not deal with the established power blocks (which is fine, but it was one of the current issues some people want resolved) as only those power blocks could build the stargates.
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:53:00 - [4] This was from another thread on the same topic: Originally by: Kailea Shandrasekkar Originally by: Lydia Brightlance (...)In other words, we have new, virgin systems that pilots can go to, but no equipment can be taken along. All characters, politics and relationships will be maintained while still giving a new frontier that can't be instantly populated by the current huge alliances that could simply move in a few freighters and immediately drop down outposts and POSes.(...) At first glance i thought i'd reject your idea, Lydia, but i admit there's merit on your suggestions. That would be one of the few ways a 'sharded experience' wouldn't hurt EvE too much - but i believe ISK should be left behind, to fully isolate the new prospective sector, economically speaking. Actually, make it so as only new chars could be created there. But then, what about the NPCs and the prime fiction? Is this new cluster already populated, or completely desert? Which kind of NPC would the explorer carebears face? Would the two environments be linked someday in the future via gigantic Warp Highways? Seems to me it would be more feasible just to add hardware, create more nulsec systems, and push Empire influence and security forward, raising sec statuses. More playground for PvPers and carebears. Just my 0.2 ISKs here. Leaving ISk behind would be an option, but only allowing new characters would be too much like a new shard in my opinion. As for the other questions on population, NPCs, etc. The beauty is that CCP can handle this in any of a thousand of ways. It could be empty space or it can be space populated by other lost civilizations from Earth. Maybe there is an alien race there or perhaps the drones beat us to it. If it was up to me I'd make it mostly empty space with on one side of the map the outpost erected by the Eve empires and on the other side a new alien race that only just started venturing into space and thus have only a tiny empire of a few constellations. The single Eve empire outpost could contain a whole lot of agents of a wide variety of levels and quality. Simply make people able to always contact them no matter where you are and they will give you a mission that is appropriate for the constellation that you are in at the moment. Let that single outpost sell the necessary stuff for an economy to start, let it have a huge amount of building slots, POS equipment, a refinery, etc. Have that single system be guarded by a CONCORD like entity and maybe a few jumps around it, but make the rest 0.0 all the way to that new alien empire. Then treat the alien empire the same way as the pirate empires are now and give that bit of space their own outposts and assets, etc. This is only one way of doing this, though. I am sure CCP can come up with a myriad of other fun situations. As for simply adding hardware and 0.0 and then pushing empire further out by raising sec status. That will do nothing for the current status quo. It has a lot of merit and I'd like to see that happen if implemented correctly (PCs loosing sovereignty as empires expand comes to mind as a huge roadblock), but I am not sure if it is worth the hassle.
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.21 14:58:00 - [5] Your idea IS nothing but a second shard. Okay, there's communication between the shards, but it's still shards. If you want new areas to be populated more slowly, add something like "you may go there, but your ship will take severe damage and you need far higher skills to survive out there..." Maybe CCP should add a region where there's a race (Talocan?) that starts an open war with everyone that enters their space, and no POS can be anchored there without decent defense since it's ambushed multiple times a day... --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.21 15:11:00 - [6] Originally by: Katana Seiko Your idea IS nothing but a second shard. Okay, there's communication between the shards, but it's still shards. I beg to differ. It is like adding another region but telling people they can't take their ship. Characters, politics, relations, alliances, etc will still be the same. In another shard all of that would be wiped.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.21 20:19:00 - [7] Artificial limits on travel are not quite 'EVE style'. Idea as it stands is that if you can get there, then so can the bad guys. Ofc it's perfectly possible to create 'new region', put somekind of 'long range stargate' up and limit say ... ship mass ... that can go thru (like only frigates or whatever) but I fail to see the point, people are rather clever afterall and soon somebody would figure out way to squeeze small pos tower into one of frigate class ships and would 'win EVE in new region'. What shard idea lovers want is risk free so called 'pve' server where pewpew population would not get them, in ideal world they would also like to be able to move produced goods back to 'real EVE'
Katana Seiko Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.22 00:14:00 - [8] Originally by: Lydia Brightlance Originally by: Katana Seiko Your idea IS nothing but a second shard. Okay, there's communication between the shards, but it's still shards. I beg to differ. It is like adding another region but telling people they can't take their ship. Characters, politics, relations, alliances, etc will still be the same. In another shard all of that would be wiped. Actually that's not true. There are lots of games that allow their characters to travel between shards. Guild Wars: You can take your Character (and even your stuff) and go to the american shard if you're bored of french people not sticking to english if there are non-french in the group (sorry to the french, but they are the only ones that lack that particular basic respect). Same with World of Warcraft... --- This is your Captain speaking. Thank you for flying with our spaceline. Please remain seated until the ship has completely burned out. Thank you.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.22 05:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Lydia Brightlance Originally by: Katana Seiko Your idea IS nothing but a second shard. Okay, there's communication between the shards, but it's still shards. I beg to differ. It is like adding another region but telling people they can't take their ship. Characters, politics, relations, alliances, etc will still be the same. In another shard all of that would be wiped. And here we come to the crux of the matter. Under all the claptrap about reducing lag, what the OP really wants is to wipe the slate clean, and basically have a game reset-ie new shard. It aint gonna happen. Any time a MMO does it, it basically dies within 6 months.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.22 07:28:00 - [10] They could introduce a second cluster and create stargates between the two. But that would be equal to just expanding the current cluster.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2008.02.22 12:09:00 - [11] The thing is, there is no reason to shard the way eve is, you can add more space indefinitely, the problem with performance occurs when more than usual numbers of people all end up in the one node, doing things that stress the servers more than normal. So what they actually need, to keep improving performance is creating new ways to spread out that load. (with the assumption that people will always do whatever the worst possible thing is that they can do to the server. )
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.22 13:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Lydia Brightlance on 22/02/2008 13:22:50 There are 2 things I need to clear up: 1. Personally, I think the game is fine, just add more systems when it gets too crowded. I simply came up with this option to try and think of ways to also accommodate those people who want a 2nd shard. 2. There is an underlying problem that causes some people to want a 2nd shard, even though a 2nd shard isn't the solution. Right now, when you just add systems that gives the older, high end players more content to work with, but not the more younger players. The older players and the bigger alliances can move in without offering a single chance to the younger players. If you add space but limit the amount of equipment that can be taken into said space the younger players will have far better chances of enjoying the new content as well. (Note: I am almost on 35 million SP and have been part of 0.0 alliance leadership, so adding at the high end of the spectrum is no problem for me. Just trying to think along with players who so desperately want that 2nd shard and find alternatives).
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.22 13:52:00 - [13] In EVE 10x low SP pilots will beat 2x high SP pilots assuming both sides are using brains. I'm not talking about trial accounts but something like 10 guys with few months of training vs 2 with 4 year of it on them. 'New players' have always possibility to affect the game, they just tend to want stuff on silver plate or are with some inferiority complex thinking they 'can never catch up'. They can and will if they put their mind into it. Perhaps not 2 weeks after creating the char as like all thing in EVE nothing is instant, but in time. Sharding will not solve psyhological problems of 'new players', they will just whine for another shard and then another and so on.
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.22 15:22:00 - [14] Originally by: Carniflex In EVE 10x low SP pilots will beat 2x high SP pilots assuming both sides are using brains. I'm not talking about trial accounts but something like 10 guys with few months of training vs 2 with 4 year of it on them. 'New players' have always possibility to affect the game, they just tend to want stuff on silver plate or are with some inferiority complex thinking they 'can never catch up'. They can and will if they put their mind into it. Perhaps not 2 weeks after creating the char as like all thing in EVE nothing is instant, but in time. Sharding will not solve psyhological problems of 'new players', they will just whine for another shard and then another and so on. This is simply not true when you look at 0.0 development. No amount of new players can raise the funds to buy POSes, fuel them, defend them, etc. You need a relatively rich alliance for that. And it certainly can't be done with speed, which is what you need if new areas open up. How long did it take for the first outposts to drop in the drone regions after they opened up?
Roger Douglas Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.02.22 22:11:00 - [15] New players (less than 1 year) can get established with posses in regions. All it takes is a plan, diplomacy, and willingness to fight. Drone regions were an excellent example of this. Fountain with the growth of bruce is an example. CVA is another opportunity. NPC regions, the eventually-to-be-opened regions in the south, etc. Opportunity abounds, it just requires teamwork, effort, a plan, and diplomacy. Oh, and yes, I've been booted from comfy space in 0.0. I rebuilt in drone regions on a shoestring budget, and our alliance reformed here. Then we took back our space. So, in short, our cheese moved. We adapted and fought, helped friends, and rebuilt. So have a huge number of alliances. They're not all rich or rolling in isk. Please, lets enjoy the variety we have without trying to equalize everything.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.02.23 08:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Lydia Brightlance This is simply not true when you look at 0.0 development. No amount of new players can raise the funds to buy POSes, fuel them, defend them, etc. You need a relatively rich alliance for that. And it certainly can't be done with speed, which is what you need if new areas open up. How long did it take for the first outposts to drop in the drone regions after they opened up? Ability to rise funds for that is not very dependant on SP levels and more dependant on organization. Anything organized and with 5+ mil SP can do it. It just takes some effort. Same as high SP guys. Your mileage might wary tho. Anything in EVE can be achived with will and organization (teamwork). As previous poster already pointed out.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 08:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Lydia Brightlance 2. There is an underlying problem that causes some people to want a 2nd shard, even though a 2nd shard isn't the solution. Right now, when you just add systems that gives the older, high end players more content to work with, but not the more younger players. The older players and the bigger alliances can move in without offering a single chance to the younger players. If you add space but limit the amount of equipment that can be taken into said space the younger players will have far better chances of enjoying the new content as well. Thats just pure bull**. Lots of alliance spring up from nothing. Goonswarm? They really did start with like 10 guys with 20m SP and 5k guys with 90k SP(back then you didnt start with 1m sp). Look at what they've accomplished. Lots of new entities form and take space in eve. Happens whenever a war breaks up an older, more established alliance in any given region. Quote:** (Note: I am almost on 35 million SP and have been part of 0.0 alliance leadership, so adding at the high end of the spectrum is no problem for me. Just trying to think along with players who so desperately want that 2nd shard and find alternatives). Post with your main.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.23 08:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Lydia Brightlance This is simply not true when you look at 0.0 development. No amount of new players can raise the funds to buy POSes, fuel them, defend them, etc. You need a relatively rich alliance for that. Goonswarm says you're wrong Quote: And it certainly can't be done with speed, which is what you need if new areas open up. How long did it take for the first outposts to drop in the drone regions after they opened up? Not long at all actually. Back when the drone regions opened up it was basically the wasteland of eve. Only empire corps and alliances that has been kicked out of their space went there. Look at it now.
Lydia Brightlance Gallente Blue Sky Inc	Posted - 2008.02.24 12:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Gamesguy Post with your main. I did and always do post with my main.
Zathi Shaitan Minmatar Illiteracy Combatants	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:23:00 - [20] "SHARDS"? Go back to WoW.. now.. shoo. ---- " Several unconventional alliances where made at that point " - Hey CCP, "where" != "were".. you too, Brutus?
Susa Ou	Posted - 2008.02.27 19:45:00 - [21] Eve is defined by its lack of shards, anything that even resembles sharding will be considered backing away from one of its defining characteristics. Its one of the things that makes me like eve so much - that anywhere in the world, anyone else who plays eve is playing in the same world as myself. To break that up is to kill the game and I am certain that CCP will not do this. As for low sp players not having space to live in. . .if you are willing to fight and band together, there are a lot of places you can go. It takes very little time to get competent in this game if you specilize and play smart - its an MMO, and that means you need to interact with others and define your goals. Some of us remember when Goonswarm started and were laughed at for the T1 frig zergs. . .now they are Zerging with battleships and such.
Donna Heywood Amarr Tribal Trust of Pator Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.28 15:56:00 - [22] Eve wouldn`t be Eve if it was sharded... Whats the point tbh, if it was it would be boring. I play eve cos its just one big happy family. Without having the need to remember who you know on what shard

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