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Played the market wrong, so what's the right way?

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Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:31:00 - [1] Well I bought a NPC product at one location, took all stock at the low sell price. Then I placed a buy order for same amount at the original price. I then went to another location and sold as much as I could for the high buy price. Leftovers I had I set up a sell order at the station for the original high buy price. I figured over the next few days the market would open each day and my buy/sells would go through. But nothing is selling and nothing is being bought. So I am trying to figure where I went wrong. Any help appreciated.
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:36:00 - [2] Edited by: YouGotRipped on 24/02/2008 07:39:49 Might be that commodity NPC orders don't show up in the same station. Instead to insure an even distribution a certain amount shows up randomly in whatever systems have the same sec status. Also past demand / supply could be taken into account. And price may vary too allowing someone to beat you to it if you've put up sell/buy orders at the original price. I wouldn't know. It's just a hunch.
Letias Caldari Teikoku Trade Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:49:00 - [3] basically anyone playing with npc goods wont touch yours cause they wont make money off it, ideally take down the sell order leave the goods in station till the price goes back up and sell em via assets. You didnt do it wrong persay but npc goods are not needed for anything really so no one will buy them overpriced :) _____________________________ Originally by: Damini Frostmane Sex isn't sex unless one of you is crying afterwards :-)
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.24 07:52:00 - [4] You're trading NPC goods, that's what you did wrong. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Letias Caldari Teikoku Trade Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.24 08:05:00 - [5] Unless you are going to tell him what to trade why tell him npc goods are wrong? For new players with very little money they work well, yes he could make more and yes it is just as easy, most people do start there. _____________________________ Originally by: Damini Frostmane Sex isn't sex unless one of you is crying afterwards :-)
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.24 08:08:00 - [6] Originally by: Letias Unless you are going to tell him what to trade why tell him npc goods are wrong? For new players with very little money they work well, yes he could make more and yes it is just as easy, most people do start there. Why don't you tell him then. I at least gave him good advice, to stop trading npc goods. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Letias Caldari Teikoku Trade Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.02.24 08:15:00 - [7] Cause he is making money and imo he isnt doing that wrong :) _____________________________ Originally by: Damini Frostmane Sex isn't sex unless one of you is crying afterwards :-)
YouGotRipped Gallente Ewigkeit	Posted - 2008.02.24 09:24:00 - [8] Considering the price margins to get a decent profit you'd have to gather a high quantity of those things that means a lot of moving around, and then sell in low sec god knows where. If you can afford taking a freighter in low sec it will pay off but still there are other activities that are more profitable with much lower time consumption and effort.
Nuttski The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.24 09:25:00 - [9] It isn't surprising only the same few people tend to post in here. Attitude shown to any new posters is appaling.
Lindsay Fox	Posted - 2008.02.24 10:27:00 - [10] Buy popular ship fittings in Jita. Use the market history tab on each item to see what the highest volume items are. Take these items to either Dodixie, Rens, Ourseleart or Tash-Murkon Prime and sell them there. Do not ever use autopilot. Do not ever go through low-sec. Don't try to make money in the opposite direction until you are sure of what you are doing. I have left out a lot of detail, but that's the basic idea. Try that for a few weeks and obvious refinements will appear.
SonOfAGhost Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.24 10:41:00 - [11] In short, Shadarle is right, don't trade NPC goods. What you're doing used to work and was a great way for new traders to build enough capital to move into player goods which are more profitable. Then it got nerfed in August '06 I believe it was. Now NPC goods take anywhere from days to years for prices to recover to optimal. Anyone buying/selling even a small amount will slow or even reset the recovery. The very existence of a standing order seems to impact recovery rate as well. Sell prices are often higher than buy prices now. The good news is orders are always for the same volume at the same stations. Your best bet is to cancel your buy and sell orders, find other NPC buy orders to hopefully break even liquidating your stock, and then never waste your time with them again. Originally by: CCP Explorer This is intended, to not clutter the overview with information that new players don't need in their first few hours. (on stargates not being on overview)
Shadarle	Posted - 2008.02.24 18:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Nuttski It isn't surprising only the same few people tend to post in here. Attitude shown to any new posters is appaling. If you want a babysitting or hand holding service you can pay me 100 mil per lame answer. Otherwise grow a backbone and accept straight answers. Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Brisco Smiley Peppermint Bay Trading Company	Posted - 2008.02.24 18:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadarle If you want a babysitting or hand holding service you can pay me 100 mil per lame answer. Otherwise grow a backbone and accept straight answers. I like it that lame answers are more expensive than the truth. Also, the trade route search on eve-central is a tremendous balancing force. All those NPC orders are sitting out their advertised to everyone with a badger and no imagination. You cannot expect those goods to grow broad margins. Cheers, Brisco Smiley
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2008.02.24 19:25:00 - [14] The NPC markets have always confused me because well for starters 70% of the goods are untradable. Which begs the question, if no one wants it why have it in-game? The remaining 30% I had figured that there were regular NPC buy and sell orders at select stations. I read a trading guide and basically thought I did the right thing, placed order at supplier station and placed sell order at station that required the goods. All that was left was transporting the goods. Though I understand that better money can be found trading player needed goods I still thought the NPC goods were viable for trade. That is why they are in-game after all right? At any rate it seems that the stations I have buy orders from are not selling to me, or at the least not at the profitable price it use to be so my buy order becomes worthless. Same with the buying NPC goods stations I have sell orders at, the market will not rise to previous in order for me to sell for profit. At the very least I figure there must be a way of anticipating possible fluxuations in prices and make trading NPC goods feasable. I guess at this point it's better to just remove my sell orders and just search for wherever will give me the price I'm asking for.
Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.24 20:07:00 - [15] I started off hauling NPC goods to make injection capital for daytrading in two of the big hubs. Did this back in September of last year, so yes, it still works. The trick is to use one of the market tracking tools to find intra-sector routes for NPC trade goods like Silicon or Mechanical Parts. The spider that resets the prices only hits once every ~30 seconds or so, and you can do a quick buy/buy at the source station and sell/sell at the destination station before the prices are corrected. You will probably blast through most of an 11k cargo hold in one trip, and can make upwards of 8m profits with only a 30m investment, usually grossing 800k-1.6m per jump.
Clair Bear	Posted - 2008.02.25 03:52:00 - [16] It's possible to make money with NPC goods. But you do note sell them to npcs, you sell them to players. Enriched uranium, mechanical parts, coolant and robotics all sell like hotcakes in certain markets because they are constantly used up by players as POS fuel. Otherwise, yeah. It's possible to find trading runs but it's almost always a huge waste of your time.
Nuttski The Scope	Posted - 2008.02.25 17:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Nuttski It isn't surprising only the same few people tend to post in here. Attitude shown to any new posters is appaling. If you want a babysitting or hand holding service you can pay me 100 mil per lame answer. Otherwise grow a backbone and accept straight answers. Why do you assume I would want, or indeed need, anything off you?
Tachypnea Blue Moon Rising Blood and Steel	Posted - 2008.02.25 19:29:00 - [18] Edited by: Tachypnea on 25/02/2008 19:30:06 Originally by: Nuttski Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Nuttski It isn't surprising only the same few people tend to post in here. Attitude shown to any new posters is appaling. If you want a babysitting or hand holding service you can pay me 100 mil per lame answer. Otherwise grow a backbone and accept straight answers. Why do you assume I would want, or indeed need, anything off you? Because even though he comes across as a massive jerk, he knows what hes talking about? edit: word censor :(
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.02.25 19:44:00 - [19] CCP has nerfed NPC trading to be as pointless and unprofitable as possible. Every time you buy, the buy price goes up, and every time you sell, the sell price goes down. Even if you find a profitable route, run it say, 3 times, and suddenly it costs more to buy than they pay you for the item. And then it takes days/weeks to recover. Not worth it at all. They should remove NPC trading entirely as part of their need for speed initiative, IMO.
Rhiraven Gallente Millennion Organization	Posted - 2008.02.25 20:09:00 - [20] I disagree. The NPC market works for me.
Prism Roze	Posted - 2008.02.25 20:42:00 - [21] NPC trading works best when you've set up .01 ISK regional Buy orders and you buy the loot off bored mission runners with too much cargo space.
Imbrasus Lekarnaum Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:20:00 - [22] What good does it do if he knows what he is talking about if all he does is shoot down people who ask questions? Wow.. that takes a lot of hard work and inside knowledge to insult people he doesn't know in what is essentially just a game.
Shadarle LI0NS Industries	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Imbrasus Lekarnaum What good does it do if he knows what he is talking about if all he does is shoot down people who ask questions? Wow.. that takes a lot of hard work and inside knowledge to insult people he doesn't know in what is essentially just a game. It actually doesn't take any work at all, it's quite easy. My first post said all that was needed and was the most honest post in this thread. It was the answer to the OP's question. If you call that shooting someone down then obviously it is a definition issue for you, not a problem for me.
Pink Lemonade Republic University	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:51:00 - [24] try buying and selling NPC goods directly without creating sell and buy orders Buy a certain amount without making buy order -> haul -> sell immediately to an NPC buy order without making sell orders. The income will not be great. As you have already noticed most NPC trade routes are crap. There are a few that are much better than the rest. Also read about how prices on NPC buy and sell order update (there have been some posts about it on this forum). As more and more people begin to use a particular route prices change and you can make less profit or even end up at a loss. Originally by: Shadarle My first post said all that was needed and was the most honest post in this thread. It was the answer to the OP's question. Which in fact it wasn't. The guy was asking about game mechanics - why don't his sell and buy orders work with NPC goods - and your answer did nothing to clarify to him what he's doing wrong. When you post here, please remember that to be helpful you're trying to tailor your response to what the OP is actually asking. In this case he is obviously a new player or new at trading and he is trying to figure out how the game works. Also remember that not all of us play EVE to build up imaginary wealth like you do. Being a little bit less focused on your own self and your own goals in game will help you see what gets posted here from the point of view of other players. In turn this will help you to not come off as a self-centered jerk in your own posts (unless, of course, you like it this way). Some of us also like to learn about how the game works and come to forums to talk about it with other players. While your answer instructs him that NPC trading is not the best way to make profits, it does not answer the original question posed. And if you think that being helpful to new guys and actually answering their questions is hand-holding, please simply refrain from posting in reply.
Shadarle LI0NS Industries	Posted - 2008.03.23 20:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Pink Lemonade Which in fact it wasn't. The guy was asking about game mechanics - why don't his sell and buy orders work with NPC goods - and your answer did nothing to clarify to him what he's doing wrong. What he was doing wrong was dealing in NPC goods. Instead of telling him how to trade NPC good correctly, which would not help him at all as it is not even remotely profitable, I told him something that would allow him to grow as a player and actually make ISK. I answered the actual question being asked, which was "what am I doing wrong"... telling him how to trade npc goods would be a dis-service and would actually waste more of his time. It would be like someone asking why they can't make any money running missions in his Raven and I tell them to stop running level 1 missions, someone else explains to them that they should find higher quality level 1 agents. Higher quality agents would get him a tiny bit more profit. Finding higher level agents would increase his profitability exponentially. Which is a more helpful reply, telling him how to do a low profit task better or telling him to stop doing that low profit task and to do something more profitable altogether that he didn't even realize he should be doing instead.
Icugoo Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.24 02:31:00 - [26] hm.. You're wondering what is the right way to 'play' the market? well, imo, i like to play the market in an upwards direction, some like to play it downwards, leftwards, etc.. Which is why there are so many different strategies.
Pink Lemonade Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.24 06:17:00 - [27] He wasn't asking "what am I doing wrong in general" or "help me be a better trader". He had a specific question about game mechanics of trading using the NPC created market - "what am i doing wrong with NPC buy/sell orders". When I come to the forums and ask a question about specific game mechanic I am not looking for responses telling me "simply don't do it, it is a waste of time" and then telling me that's all I need to know. Advice of this kind while is honest from your point of view did not answer his question as is evidenced by the guy coming back to this thread and posing the same question again. Dealing in NPC goods is only wrong from your point of view because you play with the specific goal in mind of making profit and you are so focused on it that you do not see that other people might be playing EVE for other reasons one of which is understanding how the game works and exploring new activities. Would you believe me if I said I have 100+ bil recently liquidated and have an alt that has done NPC trade routes and did a lot of other low-income stuff just because i wanted to do something new in game? No you would not. Because from your point of view it makes absolutely no sense so why would anyone else want to do this, make less profit/time? And this is how you answered OP's question. You assumed that like yourself he is seeking to make more profit, hence his question is really an undercover "how do i make more profit through trading" kind of question which is wasn't. On this ground you claimed that your answer is the only honest and correct one. But if he does not play the game like you do, guess what? Not only did you not answer his question, but your answer would be frustrating to him because it tells him that his exploration of this particular activity is wrong. This is what other posters here picked up on when they said you aren't being helpful. And of course underneath all this lies your belief that your way of playing the game is the correct way, hence you concluded that your answer is the only honest one.
Shadarle LI0NS Industries	Posted - 2008.03.24 08:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Pink Lemonade He wasn't asking "what am I doing wrong in general" or "help me be a better trader". He had a specific question about game mechanics of trading using the NPC created market - "what am i doing wrong with NPC buy/sell orders". When I come to the forums and ask a question about specific game mechanic I am not looking for responses telling me "simply don't do it, it is a waste of time" and then telling me that's all I need to know. Advice of this kind while is honest from your point of view did not answer his question as is evidenced by the guy coming back to this thread and posing the same question again. Dealing in NPC goods is only wrong from your point of view because you play with the specific goal in mind of making profit and you are so focused on it that you do not see that other people might be playing EVE for other reasons one of which is understanding how the game works and exploring new activities. Would you believe me if I said I have 100+ bil recently liquidated and have an alt that has done NPC trade routes and did a lot of other low-income stuff just because i wanted to do something new in game? No you would not. Because from your point of view it makes absolutely no sense so why would anyone else want to do this, make less profit/time? And this is how you answered OP's question. You assumed that like yourself he is seeking to make more profit, hence his question is really an undercover "how do i make more profit through trading" kind of question which is wasn't. On this ground you claimed that your answer is the only honest and correct one. But if he does not play the game like you do, guess what? Not only did you not answer his question, but your answer would be frustrating to him because it tells him that his exploration of this particular activity is wrong. This is what other posters here picked up on when they said you aren't being helpful. And of course underneath all this lies your belief that your way of playing the game is the correct way, hence you concluded that your answer is the only honest one. Excuse me for not reading most of that, it seemed quite repetitive. In the future can you please condense like thoughts in a single sentence or two... my time is far too valuable to waste it reading a rant about you not liking my advice. If you don't like my advice, don't take it. I'm not here to help people do stupid things, I'll leave that to you though... not that you will likely ever post on this forum again. When you go off to run your npc trade routes or whatever other meaningless task you do to "explore" the game, I'll still be here advising people on how to not waste their time. Let me know how that route from Sivala to Irjunen is tho... it used to be quite popular back in the day.
Priest Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.03.24 08:24:00 - [29] Variety is good, getting different answers from people analyzing different points is good. Not just one but all your answers are helpful to him and other people who is coming here with questions in their mind. May Blessings Be With you Priest Amarr
Nex Altrad Reseune Industries	Posted - 2008.03.24 17:55:00 - [30] Mighty Dread, Lot's of good advice in here. I've only been trading a couple of weeks but found that NPC goods are best when immediately purchased in one location, transported, and immediately sold at another. It doesnÆt look like you can game the NPC system with buy/sell orders. Instead check out http://eve-central.com/home/ for lucrative trades. A trick is to compare the same region to itself. Then get yourself a badger and haul. That being said, I found this method is only a good (and fun) way to make your first 30M ISK or so. After that it looks like multi-system buy/sell orders of player items are where the moneyÆs at. I havenÆt been doing it long enough to offer tips, but good luck. Nex Altrad -And where is the profit in that?

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