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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.25 12:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mitsui Takatoshi on 25/02/2008 12:16:23 I'm just trying to figure out the usefulness of missiles in fleet operations. I keep reading an ongoing debate about whether or not they have a place. I feel that for people who can look beyond primaries and look beyond firing until death...that missiles actually have a good place.
I saw someone suggest - fire at a secondary or tertiary target and kill them, while a gunboat is killing the primary.
Or - fire at multiple targets so they run away by warping away from the incoming missiles.
Also, I thought, why do you need to keep sending salvos to a ship that is crippled? I am able to discern that an NPC requires only so many salvos before it dies, and so I can prioritize what I shoot, when I shoot it, and how many times I shoot it...and after those priorities are met, I change targets and in this way I manage multiple targets at once.
I do not mean to say it is as easy in a PVP fleet operation but that a good pilot should be able to assume that a ship of a certain type should take a certain amount of damage and based on what he knows and how others are behaving, can fire a certain number of times and then minimize the risk of having 2 or 3 or however many salvos fly into the night...by changing over to another target.
As far as I can tell the largest complaint comes from who fires first and at what range, depending on targeting, a gunner may get a few hits on you before you get yours...
But when your hits come in they are like hammers.
So when it comes down to it...
Doesn't a properly used missile accomplish the same goal as a properly used gun, even in a fleet operation?
Thank you for your inputs.
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Riho
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.02.25 12:21:00 -
[2]
the problem whit missiles is it takes time to travel 150km
and in fleet combat when you see lots of stuff whit red brackets... you warp.
thats what happens whit missiles.. targets wwar way before the missiles even get there.
gunnery... they see red brackets and they allso see damage on theyr ship.
missiles in fleet combat go to around 50 man gangs... above that... they are pretty useless ---------------------------------- This is Me |
Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.25 12:28:00 -
[3]
I question how useful slinging is when it hurts DPS significantly. Regardless.
I wonder if someone should simply take into consideration that their fleet should be composed in a way that allows missile boats to warp within a closer range to the enemy fleet and simply hammer them as they all scramble to run away....
Not to mention I question the viability of slings in general - since there must be a controlled target to sling at...and only a cloaked target would be completely removed from the battlefield.
So while I suppose maybe a missile boat has little use at 150km...since then it has a 20sec or so flight time.
What is stopping the fleet from engaging and then warping their missile boats in to a rather closer range...say 10km?
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Ban Shui
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.02.25 12:49:00 -
[4]
One advantage to missiles, well at least cruise missiles on ravens, in fleet combat is that they do not suffer from reduced damage due to range. So while many turret ships are doing poor damage outside their optiomals, ravens can do full damage while still fitting a decent tank.
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Annowyn
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.02.25 12:58:00 -
[5]
Would think that close range missile boats would just warp to thier tackles. They would then be in the thick of the enemy fleet.
Guess not.
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Magazaki
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Posted - 2008.02.25 13:08:00 -
[6]
Well that's a good question.
First of all, let me say that forcing people to warp out from your missiles is a good thing as long as you can pull it off. If you can launch 6 cruise missiles against six different targets and 3 of them warp out, you've already earned your pay (so to speak) for the day. If it happens.
Close damage fighting is also a viable tactic. If not for lag. There have been rare cases where "conventional" fleets have been decimated from short range fleets with smaller numbers, but the conditions are rather strict: Low lag (you need to pilot your ship apart from just F1-F8, which is easier said than done with 30s delay), very good pilots (easier said than found, FC and pilots that can coordinate on a level more complex than "primary-secondary-tertiary". Too much bother, and too rare use. Why bother with a tactic that obsoletes itself after the numbers go over 30vs.30 due to lag?
Apart from that though... First, there is the "usual" problem: Delayed damage. Missiles take time to reach their target. Hence, in a fleet environment they usually never even have the time to reach a target.
Second and much more important: Lag. Lag from the client, delay from the weapon, your odds of actually causing damage to something is next to nonexistent. So you use guns and get it over with.
In a lagfree environment, torpravens would be the guys the covops slingshots to the enemy fleet to take on 5 of them each between meals. In a laggy environment, they're just a waste of minerals. -----sig-----
Originally by: Kaemonn:Signature
Originally by: kieron: off duty You dont have to swallow!
Win... |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.02.25 14:18:00 -
[7]
I had never really considered using missiles to keep people out of a fight to be honest. I know that when I was partaking in fleet combat, I was almost forced to use a Rokh because of the whole "gunboats are better" sort of thing. On the occasion I did use a raven or other missile ship I did less damage overall it seems than when I used a Rokh, in spite of the fact that the paper DPS for the raven was significantly higher.
However, using missiles to keep people warping in and out does reduce the DPS of the enemy fleet overall so I'd say that the plan has potential. I know that in most lag fest fleet fights the minute it looks like I'm gonna start taking hits I make a break for it and then warp back in, which in a battleship puts me out of the fight for at least a minute.
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xxxak
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Posted - 2008.02.25 15:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: xxxak on 25/02/2008 15:11:48 You have some good ideas, but unfortunately, most of them are wrong...
1) Missiles will not force someone to warp out. Almost any ship that is going to be in a PvP situation is going to be able to tank anywhere from 2-6 launchers from a Raven. Thus, they won't even care that they are being shot (unless they panic). The whole point of a fleet battle is that people get hit by 80 ships at once and die in about 5 seconds (from guns).
2) Missiles really take a LONG time to get to the target, and if 80 people are shooting that target, chances are it will be dead before the second (and often first) missile salvo hits.
As a missile user myself, I realize that missile boats are almost useless in LARGE fights.
I have brought a Drake to a fleet battle before (150 vs 150 ships), and I *was* able to score a couple kills, mainly by defending our long range gunships when smaller, faster ships got in close. Still, I accept that in MOST fleet situations of more than say... 40 v 40, guns are going to be a lot better.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.02.25 15:22:00 -
[9]
Originally by: xxxak Edited by: xxxak on 25/02/2008 15:11:48 You have some good ideas, but unfortunately, most of them are wrong...
1) Missiles will not force someone to warp out. Almost any ship that is going to be in a PvP situation is going to be able to tank anywhere from 2-6 launchers from a Raven. Thus, they won't even care that they are being shot (unless they panic). The whole point of a fleet battle is that people get hit by 80 ships at once and die in about 5 seconds (from guns).
2) Missiles really take a LONG time to get to the target, and if 80 people are shooting that target, chances are it will be dead before the second (and often first) missile salvo hits.
As a missile user myself, I realize that missile boats are almost useless in LARGE fights.
I have brought a Drake to a fleet battle before (150 vs 150 ships), and I *was* able to score a couple kills, mainly by defending our long range gunships when smaller, faster ships got in close. Still, I accept that in MOST fleet situations of more than say... 40 v 40, guns are going to be a lot better.
I'd say the determing factor of getting a ship to warp off is based entirely on their experience level. Warping off isn't a panic response - after all, we do align to a target for a REASON. The problem is I don't know if I would even notice missiles coming in in a fleet fight, but the moment I noticed the dent in my shields I would probably click that warp button (I tend to fly ECM so I don't have much between me and the suck but some plates or so)
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.25 15:28:00 -
[10]
Originally by: xxxak
1) Missiles will not force someone to warp out.... (unless they panic).
Happens alot more than you think
Originally by: xxxak
I *was* able to score a couple kills, mainly by defending our long range gunships when smaller, faster ships got in close. Still, I accept that in MOST fleet situations of more than say... 40 v 40, guns are going to be a lot better.
2 senarios for missile boats dealing with two strategic challenges. Missile boats are, like you said, anti support, they can range an additonal 40 km behind the snipers, will get called primary by stupid FC's not paying attention to there distance. Webs+missiles= dead tackle. Second senario is a 3-4 man raven torp RR gang in the middle of snipe fleet. Depending on fleet type, CMD ships mwding to the sniper spot posses a large risk and these heavy tacklers can be dispensed with quickly, also when the fleet gets in close, they are cheap, can stay and fight and can help protect your expensive snipers as they warp out
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Mo Steel
Caldari Sanguis vix Dignatio
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Posted - 2008.02.25 15:47:00 -
[11]
Sad truth is, you're far better off using guns or EWar than you are using missiles, especially at range. -----
Want a sig made? Eve-Mail me, signatures made for 5 million isk each. |
kill0rbunny
Jagdkommando Phoenix Allianz
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Posted - 2008.02.25 15:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: kill0rbunny on 25/02/2008 15:55:59
Originally by: Mitsui Takatoshi What is stopping the fleet from engaging and then warping their missile boats in to a rather closer range...say 10km?
Bubbles.
Melt Raven buy Rokh. Or Scorp.
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Psorion
The Nine Gates
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Posted - 2008.02.25 16:33:00 -
[13]
1: Missle ships fire on the secondary target. 2: Missle ships use passive targeters 3: Missle ships target enemy EW 4: Missle ships equip sensor back arrays in low slots. 5: Missle ships equip FOF missles.
Lots of use for Caldari fleet ravens in PVP.
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UGLYUGLY
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Posted - 2008.02.25 19:32:00 -
[14]
Missiles are great for fleet fights around a pos, specifically the people darting in and out. I have seen missiles continue to follow the target into the pos shield and blow them up.
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Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.25 20:52:00 -
[15]
So I sense a lot of contradictory information. You can't have "missiles sucks because yatta yatta" and then another respond with "no wait missiles are great because those yattas are wrong".
It must be that experience has taught different people different things which lends support to my argument that people misuse missiles or simply are treating them like guns.
For instance one of the latest gentlemen posted a list of usefulnesses to missiles and F.o.F is one of them etc. And that seems sensible, for a similar range (exact same range?) F.o.F can be used to fire on ships that you haven't even targeted...you're shooting before they are shooting their guns.
And if that "first strike" is so critical - since in my view a missile boat should not be taking primaries for gunners....load up F.o.Fs for when you enter the fight, fire your salvo or even two as you are targeting, and load up a rack of standards or your non-F.o.F when you are close to done targeting.
Then you're ready to start continuing hitting.
Granted that's a lag free environment.
I wonder if lag could help as much hinder missiles since while a gunner fires through-out lag doing dps which adds up to say - 1000dmg over the 30s lag...
A missile boat hits once or twice during that 30s lag doing 1000dmg total...
It's even...and in that moment of lag - no one has time to respond anyway.
So to me missiles still seem like knock out weapons...if you do 100dps but he recharges 100dps...it's a no-win (forsake the thought of primaried for a second).
If he has only 200 hp...and you hit for 500hp in one hit...but do a dps of 50....you just killed him...regardless of his active tank.
So again, everything I've read just seems to be cons = not thinking outside the box.
Putting theory into practice...to me seems difficult only because of lag...which I'm sure someone can think of how to work through that...or around it (Pick your fights).
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Chuck Skull
BBK Corp
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Posted - 2008.02.25 21:11:00 -
[16]
There are a few niches that missiles do very well, but I suspect most FC's would go for another more focused ship. There is a good chance none of those niches will be in the battle and another tackler, DPS or ewar guy is probably going to be more useful. Bigger the battle, the more this applies.
I'm a missile user but the only ship useful for fleet work is the Scorp in my eyes, and thats purely for it's ECM abilities(horribly neglected in most roaming gangs).
---
Also available in 'sober' |
Mitsui Takatoshi
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Posted - 2008.02.25 21:33:00 -
[17]
I agree fully on Ewar, but that rules out the Rokh "gunboat"....which people seem to want to emphasize because it is a gunship.
Can you be a bit more specific to what niches you are thinking about?
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Gamesguy
Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.02.25 22:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mitsui Takatoshi So I sense a lot of contradictory information. You can't have "missiles sucks because yatta yatta" and then another respond with "no wait missiles are great because those yattas are wrong".
It must be that experience has taught different people different things which lends support to my argument that people misuse missiles or simply are treating them like guns.
For instance one of the latest gentlemen posted a list of usefulnesses to missiles and F.o.F is one of them etc. And that seems sensible, for a similar range (exact same range?) F.o.F can be used to fire on ships that you haven't even targeted...you're before they are their guns.
And if that "first strike" is so critical - since in my view a missile boat should not be taking primaries for gunners....load up F.o.Fs for when you enter the fight, fire your salvo or even two as you are targeting, and load up a rack of standards or your non-F.o.F when you are close to done targeting.
Then you're ready to start continuing hitting.
Granted that's a lag free environment.
Except thats not how fof missiles work. If no one has shot you/ecmed you yet, your fof missiles will sit and do nothing.
Quote: I wonder if lag could help as much hinder missiles since while a gunner fires through-out lag doing dps which adds up to say - 1000dmg over the 30s lag...
A missile boat hits once or twice during that 30s lag doing 1000dmg total...
It's even...and in that moment of lag - no one has time to respond anyway.
So to me missiles still seem like knock out weapons...if you do 100dps but he recharges 100dps...it's a no-win (forsake the thought of primaried for a second).
If he has only 200 hp...and you hit for 500hp in one hit...but do a dps of 50....you just killed him...regardless of his active tank.
So again, everything I've read just seems to be cons = not thinking outside the box.
Putting theory into practice...to me seems difficult only because of lag...which I'm sure someone can think of how to work through that...or around it (Pick your fights).
No one active tanks in fleet.
Oh and no experienced pilot will warp out from a single missle boat. Its quite easy to tell when you're being primaried, the big yellow/red brackets surrounding the ships on your overview is usually a good sign.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.26 00:01:00 -
[19]
Raven:
Short range damage machine it's good at. In a fleet, they can be useful, but it's pretty much a kamikaze run, as support'll be all over them, and they'll die.
It's a bit better at this than another BS, but not very much.
Long range damage, it's not very effective. Above a certain size of fight, the fact that it takes time for your missiles to start hitting, has way more of an impact on the amount of damage you deal to a ship, than the marginally higher DPS that a cruise missile raven does. Ships die very quickly when they start taking damage in a fleet fight, and whilst the paper DPS is slightly better on a 220km cruise, the fact that you have to wait for it to start doing that DPS, means you have a lot of catching up to do.
This is assuming they neither warp, nor pop your ship before your missiles hit of course.
In short, Ravens are rare in a fleet fight, because a Rokh or a Scorpion (also caldari BS) are far more valuable and useful.
Heavy missile ships, such as caracal, drake, Cerberus, can be useful as anti-support platforms. They're not much better or worse than alternatives at this - they have more range, but they also don't hit anything that thinks to turn on it's MWD. (Or warp). But if it's skirmishing at support ranges, missiles aren't that much worse.
Raven can do this too, but suffers from being a battleship - slower locking, lower mobility and easier to hit. And actually, cruise missiles aren't particularly better in an anti-support role than heavy missiles.
Smaller ships... are not really any better or worse than any other. The primary purposes of an interceptor or interdictor isn't it's damage capability anyway. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
Iteken Hotori
Minmatar Eve Defence Force Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.02.28 14:28:00 -
[20]
if i see one more person use the justification: "i'll jsut shoot the secondary / tertiary" i swear to go i'm going to find you and pod you myself - in game.
FC: "Primary is xxx" Raven pilot: "Nah, i'm goi to shoot this guy" FC: "go get a Rokh / Scorp or i'll pod you myself"
PRIMARY. You shoot it, with guns, in a fleet fight. SECONDARY. You lock it whilst shooting Primary so you can shoot it later on.
The faster you kill a PRIMARY the faster you kill another PRIMARY. Whoever kills fastest wins. Focus fire is teh key.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2008.02.28 14:32:00 -
[21]
note to self get lots of characters starting with a or b and put in ravens at 230kmish with cruise
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Karash Amerius
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.02.28 15:39:00 -
[22]
They are very useful when seiging a POS, and you have enemy ships trying to do a "peak a boo" move on some of your support fleet. While turrets lose their lock and damage instantly when the target goes back into the POS shields....missiles continue on if launched before losing lock. So if you have 8 fish in the water before losing lock, they will all hit...even if the target is inside the shield.
A lot of new players to fleet ops don't realize this.
"Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog |
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