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Jorena	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:11:00 - [31] Originally by: Matalino Edited by: Matalino on 26/02/2008 19:58:59 Originally by: Ieu Duin But at least let pilots defend themselves against the scanners. The point is that they will NOT be able to defend themselves. Compare: Currently - hauler gets scanned, then ganked, attackers lose their ships. With flagging - hauler gets scanned, then ganked, attackers do not lose their ships if the hauler doesn't want them CONCORDed. We can save CCP the touble of writing the code to add flagging: if a hauler wants to get ganked without destroying the gankers all he needs to do is drop a jet can with his cargo then self-destruct. You don't understand how this sort of aggression works, do you? You steal from my can. I can fire back at you at will, then you can fire back on me. If I don't fire on you, but you fire on me first, you die to Concord. You scan me and thus become aggressed in this manner. I can jam you THEN you can fire back at me without Concord. If I don't do anything to you but you still actually fire on me then Concord pops you. Simple.
Vested Interest	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:12:00 - [32] Originally by: Myadra maybe what you should be asking for, is a passive target detector or a module to alert if you been cargo scanned This, or a module/rig that simply blocks incoming scans at cost of a % of your cargo capacity.
Terex193 Amarr Advanced Security And Asset Protection	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:16:00 - [33] i make my cargo carries in either a Zealot or Absolution, I don't use gankables like Haulers
Slate Fistcrunch	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Sar'aina Obviously the only reason to scan any ships cargo is to decide whether or not it's worth ganking Reasons to use cargo scanners: 1) Determine worth of cargo for purposes of suicide ganking 2) Gather intel: see if known enemy alliance freighters are moving POS gear or combat ships en masse 3) Determine value of cargo for ransom purposes 4) See who looted what. Just ganked a mothership? Get that cargo scanner out to see who is getting away with the officer gear. 5) Curiosity: see how that big name alliance guy fits his ship or what that big name alliance freighter is hauling around in Jita. Alternatively, scan hauler traffic coming into Jita to see what people are producing / inventing for the market.
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Jorena You don't understand how this sort of aggression works, do you? No, your not getting the point. Allow me to be more explicit. Assume that the change has been made. If you scan someone, you are now flagged to that persons corp. Now defend yourself. Someone locks on to you. You have 2-5 seconds depending on their skills and equipement to break their lock or destroy their ship. Option 1) they have scanned you with an alt ship, and will use a main fleet for the actual gank. If you destroy the ship, they have most likely lost nothing. However, if it has taken you more than 2-5 seconds to destroy that ship, they will know the contents and fittings of your hauler, and can suicide gank using the rest of their fleet as usual. Option 2) you have been scanned by a solo ganker. If you retailate against the ganker using the hauler, he will be free to attack without risk of losing his ship to CONCORD. If you have fleet support to attack the solo ganker, attacking would be less effective and more risky than using the same sized fleet for logistics support while letting CONCORD ensure the destruction of the would-be ganker. if you have another situation where flagging would allow for an effective defence of the hauler, please share. In reality, if you wanted to nerf cargo scanners, the best way to do it would be to increase the scan time by 5-10x. If they were nerfed in that way, the only thing they would be effective against would be AFK haulers. Anyone using WTZ would warp out before the scan could be completed. AFK haulers cannot and should not be protected.
Jeht Jahgooar	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:46:00 - [36] Intel. Any attempts to get intel on me should result in you being flagged to me. Scanning my ship should flag you as aggressed to me. Locking my ship should flag you as aggressed to me. Zooming in on my ship should flag you as aggressed to me. Seeing my ship in space should flag you as aggressed to me. Seeing my ship in the overview should flag you as aggressed to me. Anyone looking at my name in local chat should be aggressed to me. Anyone reading this forum post should be aggressed to me.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:50:00 - [37] Originally by: Myadra Edited by: Myadra on 26/02/2008 17:37:15 cargo scanning and ship scanning, and fitting a passive targeter to do these passive actions is all that, passive.. gathering intel discreetly . how can scanning be aggression or something that should/could cause flagging? Plenty of reasons to not like being cargo scanned. Most are not doing it to satisfy their curiosity. It is a prelude to an attack. We are not talking about passive, ambient radio waves. We are talking about a directed scan. If you were driving downtown and some people started scanning your trunk at every stop light and will carjack you if they see good stuff in there you'd be ok with that since they are not actually hurting you with the scan? Somehow I doubt it. A solution seems simpler than many put forth already. Make the cargo scanner only show (say) 10-100% of the cargo (at random) on a first scan. The player cannot know whether they are seeing all of it or 10%. Second scan gets you 50-100%. Third scan gets you 90-100%. Fourth (if you really want) gets you 100%. This allows players who are actively piloting their haulers to mitigate the effectiveness of cargo scanners by moving more quickly and noticing that a single player is taking undue interest in them following them around. If a pilot is AFKing then should be no problem. Yes the scanners have to do a bit more work but why shouldn't they? Let them work a little for that gank and it is not all that onerous. Adds some skill to the scanner (trying to appear to just be happening on the same route) and throws some uncertainty into the mix. It allows haulers to use some skill to spot these attempts and take steps to avoid them. For those who AFK haul they are as SOL as ever.
Jeht Jahgooar	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:54:00 - [38] Modifying a buy/sell order such that I am bumped out from being in the top slot is an aggressive act. The aggressor should be flagged to me.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.02.26 20:57:00 - [39] Originally by: Sar'aina It doesn't seem right that players can be targeted and have a cargo scanner activated on them in high security space but can't activate ECM to jam that scanning because it would be an act of aggression. Obviously the only reason to scan any ships cargo is to decide whether or not it's worth ganking so to do so should be agro. But I'm sure CCP actually loves this exploit though because it only hurts veteran players who are the ones that will just turn around and spend the isk to replace what they've lost, maybe even by buying & selling a GTC or two to do it. If this were happening to newbs it would be considered "harassment" like it is leaving canisters in front of stations Enjoy. Cargo scanners themselves don't hurt anyone. ECM does.
Dale Konstantine	Posted - 2008.02.26 21:15:00 - [40] How bout this: Scan Foil, Mid slot, 200 cpu, 1 pg Sends falsified ident signals to scanning devices, giving a chance of a false return. Only one module of this type may be fitted to a ship. 15% chance module fails 15% chance module gives a scanning ship an 'odd' false return (I.E. guns in mid locations, Estamel's Dual light pulse laser) 15% chance module gives a scanning failed result 55% chance module gives a false return showing a loadout based on a loaded script (Your gank ship looks honor tanked with small guns and valuable cargo)
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech Giant Space Amoeba	Posted - 2008.02.26 21:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Slate Fistcrunch Originally by: Sar'aina Obviously the only reason to scan any ships cargo is to decide whether or not it's worth ganking Reasons to use cargo scanners: 1) Determine worth of cargo for purposes of suicide ganking 2) Gather intel: see if known enemy alliance freighters are moving POS gear or combat ships en masse 3) Determine value of cargo for ransom purposes 4) See who looted what. Just ganked a mothership? Get that cargo scanner out to see who is getting away with the officer gear. 5) Curiosity: see how that big name alliance guy fits his ship or what that big name alliance freighter is hauling around in Jita. Alternatively, scan hauler traffic coming into Jita to see what people are producing / inventing for the market. 6) in a mining op, check to see if a can is full before slow-boating over to it 7) scan wrecks to see if any nice loot dropped in a random wreck at a stargate to see if it's worth disabling auto-pilot (or in lowsec risking your ship) to go get it ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Quelque Chose Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.26 21:44:00 - [42] Seems to me like the problem with suicide ganking isn't that it needs to be nerfed, it's that it's an underdeveloped mechanic. If there was a way you could actually have fun with it it might be cool, as is it seems like an "I win" button for use against lazy people by lazy people. Meh.
Sir Emi Gallente Space Odyssey Heroes	Posted - 2008.02.26 22:24:00 - [43] Ok, in 3 years of Eve playing PvP / mission / exploration everything, I have never had use for a cargo scanner. Cargo scanner's only use is to scan high sec targets and gank the good ones. Once you are cargo scaned and you know you have good cargo in hold, you're as good as dead. Crago scanning should trigger Aggro and Concord or at least flag as criminal, it's just like ECM prelude to the fight. Period. Space Odyssey Maker... www.spaceo.net
Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.26 22:28:00 - [44] The only thing your idea has going for is it would make it easier to get quick pvp in empire. Say a frigate decides to scan your hauler... how many sensors boosters you going to have to have on it to lock and jam that frigate? An unboosted hauler takes like 45 secs to lock a frigate. Now what do you do if they have 2 or 3 frigates trying to cargo scan you? Plus if you are actively trying to keep me from seeing you cargo I'm going to attack anyway since concord will not attack me as we are mutually flagged. Only thing it would be good for is setting ambushes for gankers. Be easy to probably exploit on noobs.
Sir Emi Gallente Space Odyssey Heroes	Posted - 2008.02.26 22:36:00 - [45] Try this, I fly a T2 Transport trough high sec and this BS targets me and scans my cargo. His buddies are waiting on the other side of the high sec gate for his orders on who to shoot at. He is now flaged as criminal, my corp mates that provide escort gank him up. If he doesn't have support while gathering this scan info, he's ganked instead of my T2 hauler. That's how it should work. Space Odyssey Maker... www.spaceo.net
Aldee Federated Holdings	Posted - 2008.02.26 22:51:00 - [46] If you got escort then whats the problem with the way it is now? Devs got alot more important stuff to work on then this.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.26 22:59:00 - [47] Give them a taste of their own medicine, cargo scan them back and see how they like it. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
Agor Dirdonen	Posted - 2008.02.26 23:18:00 - [48] Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 26/02/2008 23:18:02 If the only use of a cargo scanner is to be used in high sec as a tool for suicide gankers, if that really is the only use, why did CCP put it in game in the first place? Think about this before you call something an exploit. Try to understand what that means....
Matalino Gallente Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2008.02.26 23:43:00 - [49] Edited by: Matalino on 26/02/2008 23:45:05 Originally by: Sir Emi Try this, I fly a T2 Transport trough high sec and this BS targets me and scans my cargo. His buddies are waiting on the other side of the high sec gate for his orders on who to shoot at. He is now flaged as criminal, my corp mates that provide escort gank him up. If he doesn't have support while gathering this scan info, he's ganked instead of my T2 hauler. That's how it should work. Wouldn't it be much better for your corp mates to provide you with logistics support. That way your corp mates don't risk losing their ships as well and you are gaurenteed the kill because CONCORD can't lose. Do you really think that your ecsorts can kill the attackers faster than CONCORD? If he has support on the other side of the gate, do you think that you could kill him before they make the jump? How does killing the scanning ship stop the ganking ships? I already point this out earlier in this thread. Flagging from cargo scan would do nothing to help the defenders, but would give the attackers some additional kills.
Dimagus	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:12:00 - [50] Adding a flag would accomplish nothing against the unganged alt trial account flying <insert rookie ship> and cargo scanning you. If anything is done it would have to be an ECM or ECCM defense to prevent it.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:14:00 - [51] I think the best idea would be to make it so that you can agress them if they scan you. I look at the cargohold of a ship like its a cargo container, if you open someones can but don't take anything you still get flagged right? Why shouldn't it be the same way with ships, if they look in your cargohold you can shoot them. My Blog
Xaen Caldari Target Practice Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Sar'aina It doesn't seem right that players can be targeted and have a cargo scanner activated on them in high security space but can't activate ECM to jam that scanning because it would be an act of aggression. Obviously the only reason to scan any ships cargo is to decide whether or not it's worth ganking so to do so should be agro. But I'm sure CCP actually loves this exploit though because it only hurts veteran players who are the ones that will just turn around and spend the isk to replace what they've lost, maybe even by buying & selling a GTC or two to do it. If this were happening to newbs it would be considered "harassment" like it is leaving canisters in front of stations Enjoy. Don't undock in an attractive, easily killed target next time. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:24:00 - [53] Originally by: ghosttr I think the best idea would be to make it so that you can agress them if they scan you. I look at the cargohold of a ship like its a cargo container, if you open someones can but don't take anything you still get flagged right? Why shouldn't it be the same way with ships, if they look in your cargohold you can shoot them. No, you don't get flagged for opening containers. I don't see why looking should ever flag you. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:37:00 - [54] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: ghosttr I think the best idea would be to make it so that you can agress them if they scan you. I look at the cargohold of a ship like its a cargo container, if you open someones can but don't take anything you still get flagged right? Why shouldn't it be the same way with ships, if they look in your cargohold you can shoot them. No, you don't get flagged for opening containers. I don't see why looking should ever flag you. IOk how about this then, if you stored all of your valuables in your car, and are driving it. What would you do if i camp up to you at a stoplight and started looking through all of your goodies? Sit there and think to yourself, "aww lookin cant hurt"? My Blog
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:41:00 - [55] Originally by: ghosttr IOk how about this then, if you stored all of your valuables in your car, and are driving it. What would you do if i camp up to you at a stoplight and started looking through all of your goodies? Sit there and think to yourself, "aww lookin cant hurt"? EVE isn't real life, but if you want to play analogies, doing that wouldn't give me the right to shoot you. Even punching you would probably get me in trouble if you chose to go to the police and press charges. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:44:00 - [56] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: ghosttr IOk how about this then, if you stored all of your valuables in your car, and are driving it. What would you do if i camp up to you at a stoplight and started looking through all of your goodies? Sit there and think to yourself, "aww lookin cant hurt"? EVE isn't real life, but if you want to play analogies, doing that wouldn't give me the right to shoot you. Even punching you would probably get me in trouble if you chose to go to the police and press charges. Ok scenario #2, same situation as the first, you are at a stoplight and im over here with my face plastered against your window, and your telling me to get all (because according to you that all you can do right), what would the officer do? He would intervene right? My Blog
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:47:00 - [57] He'd probably move you along, but there's not a lot more he could do. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:48:00 - [58] Originally by: Aldee If you got escort then whats the problem with the way it is now? And your escort will protect your ship how? At best they can try to grab what loot drops before the pirates get it still leaving you without a ship (in the case of a freighter a billion ISK) and only half your loot (losing you at a minimum another 500 million ISK and maybe more). Pirates are out around 300 mil. Doesn't look balanced to me.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:50:00 - [59] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Aldee If you got escort then whats the problem with the way it is now? And your escort will protect your ship how? At best they can try to grab what loot drops before the pirates get it still leaving you without a ship (in the case of a freighter a billion ISK) and only half your loot (losing you at a minimum another 500 million ISK and maybe more). Pirates are out around 300 mil. Doesn't look balanced to me. ECM, logistics. Escorts don't need to be able to fight back, just keep you alive while Concord does the work. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 00:59:00 - [60] Originally by: Kelron Queldine He'd probably move you along, but there's not a lot more he could do. Where I live whave have "make my day laws", where we can legally defend (with deadly force if necessary) our property and ourselves. I would take scanning my cargo as being a threat to my property, and kick your ass. Should be the same thing in eve too. On another note, why are you so uptight about some hauler being able to attack back? My Blog

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