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Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:16:00 - [61] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/02/2008 01:17:07 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h And your escort will protect your ship how? At best they can try to grab what loot drops before the pirates get it still leaving you without a ship (in the case of a freighter a billion ISK) and only half your loot (losing you at a minimum another 500 million ISK and maybe more). Pirates are out around 300 mil. Doesn't look balanced to me. ECM, logistics. Escorts don't need to be able to fight back, just keep you alive while Concord does the work. Not going to bother going through it all again as it has been done many times. I will just say if you do the math on how long a logistics ship will keep a freighter alive (or any hauler if you prefer) during a gank the answer is it has practically no effect. ECM? Versus how many billion drones? CONCORD will have them jammed probably before your buddy does anyway and it does not help either. Really think about what 15 Dominix with drones do to you when they have the drop on you via a passive lock to begin with then consider what kind of escort you need to survive that will do better than CONCORD does. All and escort will avail you is an attempt to grab your loot (what survived) before the bad guys do and the smart ones have a speedy ship to bump off anyone else going for the wreck so good luck with that.
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:29:00 - [62] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h [ Not going to bother going through it all again as it has been done many times. I will just say if you do the math on how long a logistics ship will keep a freighter alive (or any hauler if you prefer) during a gank the answer is it has practically no effect. ECM? Versus how many billion drones? CONCORD will have them jammed probably before your buddy does anyway and it does not help either. Really think about what 15 Dominix with drones do to you when they have the drop on you via a passive lock to begin with then consider what kind of escort you need to survive that will do better than CONCORD does. All and escort will avail you is an attempt to grab your loot (what survived) before the bad guys do and the smart ones have a speedy ship to bump off anyone else going for the wreck so good luck with that. 1.) Dominix is not the best suicide ship anymore 2.) Anyone in your corp who is with you in a PvP ship will be able to keep someone from making off with any loot that is left over. (If you can't figure out why, you should probably excuse yourself from the conversation.)
Dai Nau Mothership Connection Inc. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:34:00 - [63] this is so stupid if you jammed me I would just kill you anyway
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:44:00 - [64] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/02/2008 01:45:02 Originally by: Dianeces 1.) Dominix is not the best suicide ship anymore 2.) Anyone in your corp who is with you in a PvP ship will be able to keep someone from making off with any loot that is left over. (If you can't figure out why, you should probably excuse yourself from the conversation.) 1) I know CCP made the Dominix less effective at freighter ganks but still thought it was the preferred ship. Regardless, whatever they use they are effective enough to drop a freighter in less than 30 seconds. I cannot imagine a reasonable guard force that could stop it. 2) This is so easily gotten around. They just use a cheap ship to flip the can (so to speak). Now if you touch it you get flagged...go ahead and blow-up their shuttles...I'm sure they care. For a freighter wreck they may need several ships to do that but if they have already pulled together the ships for the gank all they need is to have a second account online and they have enough to flip the freighter wreck. Maybe leave one or two extra guys as guards over the flipped cans.
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:46:00 - [65] You're still missing the most obvious solution, though one which may leave a sour taste in the mouths of all the whiny carebears that populate these forums.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.02.27 01:57:00 - [66] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/02/2008 01:58:59 Originally by: Dianeces You're still missing the most obvious solution, though one which may leave a sour taste in the mouths of all the whiny carebears that populate these forums. Blow up the wreck? No doubt I would do that just as a feeble "up-yours" to the gankers but the freighter pilot is still out everything. Small comfort. It's not about not getting ganked...it is about leveling the playing field some. A freighter is just a big, fat target. Many suggestions have been offered. Reasonable suggestions that would still allow the gank to occur on lazy haulers but allow someone who is playing a chance. The rest of EVE is about that kind of gameplay...why not this?
Kyra Felann Gallente Noir.	Posted - 2008.02.27 02:31:00 - [67] Cry some more, noob. It's not an exploit.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 02:54:00 - [68] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Kelron Queldine He'd probably move you along, but there's not a lot more he could do. Where I live whave have "make my day laws", where we can legally defend (with deadly force if necessary) our property and ourselves. I would take scanning my cargo as being a threat to my property, and kick your ass. Should be the same thing in eve too. On another note, why are you so uptight about some hauler being able to attack back? I'm staying away from you if the law allows you to shoot nosey weirdos As for haulers being able to 'attack back', that implies they've been attacked in the first place. Scanners are non-aggressive because they don't damage the target or otherwise interfere with it (like ECM does). I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
Kelron Queldine Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.02.27 02:57:00 - [69] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Really think about what 15 Dominix with drones do to you when they have the drop on you via a passive lock to begin with then consider what kind of escort you need to survive that will do better than CONCORD does. If your enemy is prepared to bring 15 ships to kill you, maybe you should bring an escort that can counter it? No one likes getting blobbed, but PvPers don't complain that they can't win with 2 v 15. I hate signatures with no distinct break from the body of the post.
Allia Nertal Don't Pod Me Bro	Posted - 2008.02.27 04:05:00 - [70] I would be in favor of a module that passively increases how long it takes for someone to lock you. Stealth plating or something. Make it lowslot to compete with cargo expanders. Then if you need to haul valuable crap, you can do so at the cost of more trips.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 07:15:00 - [71] Originally by: Kelron Queldine Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Kelron Queldine He'd probably move you along, but there's not a lot more he could do. Where I live whave have "make my day laws", where we can legally defend (with deadly force if necessary) our property and ourselves. I would take scanning my cargo as being a threat to my property, and kick your ass. Should be the same thing in eve too. On another note, why are you so uptight about some hauler being able to attack back? I'm staying away from you if the law allows you to shoot nosey weirdos As for haulers being able to 'attack back', that implies they've been attacked in the first place. Scanners are non-aggressive because they don't damage the target or otherwise interfere with it (like ECM does). You still haven't answered, whats so bad about a hauler being able to agress you if you scan him? What exactly are you afraid of My Blog
MenanceWhite Amarr Fruit Fellatio	Posted - 2008.02.27 08:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Jorena You scan me and thus become aggressed in this manner. I can jam you THEN you can fire back at me without Concord. If I don't do anything to you but you still actually fire on me then Concord pops you. Simple. You don't seem to understand this his post works, Do you? Implenting something like that is not a viable solution for the carebears to SHUT THEIR YAPPER in the forums. There's still going to be whines. Besides, wow jamming? How many jams can a hauler fit? Did you know that jammers are pretty gimped when used on any ship that does'nt have bonuses on jammers? You shoot them, you die. You don't shoot them, you die + they get concordoken <- note that this already happens. It's still the same on the you die part. How is that going to help? --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Elixibren Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 08:48:00 - [73] When you can jam from your freighter, we'll talk.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 08:48:00 - [74] Originally by: MenanceWhite Originally by: Jorena You scan me and thus become aggressed in this manner. I can jam you THEN you can fire back at me without Concord. If I don't do anything to you but you still actually fire on me then Concord pops you. Simple. You don't seem to understand this his post works, Do you? Implenting something like that is not a viable solution for the carebears to SHUT THEIR YAPPER in the forums. There's still going to be whines. Besides, wow jamming? How many jams can a hauler fit? Did you know that jammers are pretty gimped when used on any ship that does'nt have bonuses on jammers? You shoot them, you die. You don't shoot them, you die + they get concordoken <- note that this already happens. It's still the same on the you die part. How is that going to help? I dont agree with the whole carebear thing, i just think if someone gets to look in my cargohold i get to kill them I think it just plays into the whole risk vs reward thing. They got to have some risk in scanning me My Blog
MenanceWhite Amarr Fruit Fellatio	Posted - 2008.02.27 08:59:00 - [75] Sure you get to kill them. But just exactly how are you going to kill them? On a hauler with 1 turret? On a freighter with 0 turrets? You're going to kill a frig that costs 30k totally including fitting? (this gives them killrights, which means that they can kill you without getting concorddoken) Carebears are still going to whine. They just want to to transport their stuff in a 100% safe way thru highsec just like PvE WoW servers. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 09:13:00 - [76] Originally by: MenanceWhite Sure you get to kill them. But just exactly how are you going to kill them? On a hauler with 1 turret? On a freighter with 0 turrets? You're going to kill a frig that costs 30k totally including fitting? (this gives them killrights, which means that they can kill you without getting concorddoken) Carebears are still going to whine. They just want to to transport their stuff in a 100% safe way thru highsec just like PvE WoW servers. Well maybe thats not the best idea ever, the point is that there is no risk vs reward for the cargo scanners. Its all reward and no risk, which in eve = bad. My Blog
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.27 09:17:00 - [77] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: MenanceWhite Sure you get to kill them. But just exactly how are you going to kill them? On a hauler with 1 turret? On a freighter with 0 turrets? You're going to kill a frig that costs 30k totally including fitting? (this gives them killrights, which means that they can kill you without getting concorddoken) Carebears are still going to whine. They just want to to transport their stuff in a 100% safe way thru highsec just like PvE WoW servers. Well maybe thats not the best idea ever, the point is that there is no risk vs reward for the cargo scanners. Its all reward and no risk, which in eve = bad. Whats the risk vs reward for mining in a dreadnought in a 1.0 system. Ban Chribba tbqh. Somethings in eve just have no risk. Whats the reward in using a cargo scanner? Nothing.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP RONA Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.27 09:27:00 - [78] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: MenanceWhite Sure you get to kill them. But just exactly how are you going to kill them? On a hauler with 1 turret? On a freighter with 0 turrets? You're going to kill a frig that costs 30k totally including fitting? (this gives them killrights, which means that they can kill you without getting concorddoken) Carebears are still going to whine. They just want to to transport their stuff in a 100% safe way thru highsec just like PvE WoW servers. Well maybe thats not the best idea ever, the point is that there is no risk vs reward for the cargo scanners. Its all reward and no risk, which in eve = bad. Whats the risk vs reward for mining in a dreadnought in a 1.0 system. Ban Chribba tbqh. Somethings in eve just have no risk. Whats the reward in using a cargo scanner? Nothing. There should be risk. And the lack of it with these modules is whats makes suicide ganking unbalanced. Noticed, that i said unbalanced rather than unfair lame, etc. I have no problem with suicide ganking for profit. Its part of the industrial sabotage in the game. Now the thing were going here is balance for you to get his cargo data what do you risk nothing. You just don't want any challenge in the matter. Eve is a pvp game, if you don't want to compete against another player then maybe we should start calling you the carebear My Blog
Derick Trotter Minmatar Trotter's Indipendant Traders Zzz	Posted - 2008.02.27 09:43:00 - [79] I've been suicide ganked in high-sec twice in the last 2 weeks. First time, ina frig loaded with T2 gear on AP on a major highway, and 2nd time, in a nigh empty hauler. Since the first gank, I havent AP'ed anywhere with anything that I wasnt prepared to loose. In fact, although its "a pain" to manually cart my trade goods around, it has given the game a bit more substance to me. Also, after the first gank, I thought "hmm, if people are doing this there must be ISK in it" so have been considering having a go myself. Anyway, I do think that the risk/reward is scewed from a financial sense towards the ganker. Its becoming obvious by the fact that almost every gate on certain highways are camped in this way. IMO an quick and easy way to rebalance this would be (ducks for cover) stop insurance payouts for loss of ship by concord. I can fit a suicide gank ship which will result in a net loss of 1M which I do think isnt quite balanced (ships selling at or below min proces is to blame in part for this). He who dares....
Ryuu Katsu YTiRi Directorate	Posted - 2008.02.27 09:52:00 - [80] Originally by: Jorena Scanning just needs to be flagged as aggression--not a 'calling all Concord' aggression, but equivalent to can flipping. That way you can at least jam them or have corpmates come to your defense. /signed Also, even though in some cases it would no doubt spike a gankees interest in taking you out, it would be kind of neat to be able to install a sort of anti-scanning/scanning-scrambling device. ======================== Real men structure tank.
DeODokktor Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium	Posted - 2008.02.27 10:01:00 - [81] Originally by: ghosttr Originally by: Kelron Queldine He'd probably move you along, but there's not a lot more he could do. Where I live whave have "make my day laws", where we can legally defend (with deadly force if necessary) our property and ourselves. I would take scanning my cargo as being a threat to my property, and kick your ass. Should be the same thing in eve too. On another note, why are you so uptight about some hauler being able to attack back? Being an American, I often have foreign people say "Why do you Americans all kill each other"... I guess we found the answer, it's cause we have windows in cars.
Zaerlorth Maelkor	Posted - 2008.02.27 10:34:00 - [82] Can cargo scanner look inside secure containers in your hold? IF they can't that seems like an easy solution for all those who get suicide ganked in their haulers. Just fill up your cargo with giant secure containers and dump the stuff in there... ================================================== I should really get a sig.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:00:00 - [83] Originally by: Naomi Wildfire Can't see an exploit. Cargo scanners dont harm anybody. It does harm. Pirate scans the Hauler, is it worth to much Pirate shots Hauler. Can Hauler do somethink against this scan? Don't fly with autopilot, sure. But after a Jump when he trys to allain? NO! Well, he could send scouts, sure. But then you expect the Hauler to use two acc every time while the Pirate in his Gang-BS just needs one (no, you don't need more then one BS to instapop a Transport Ship).
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:05:00 - [84] Edited by: Jack Jombardo on 27/02/2008 11:05:48 Originally by: MenanceWhite Highsec Pirates are still going to whine. They just want to **** up people in a 100% safe way thru highsec just like PvE WoW servers. Fixed for the case when no insurence is paid anymore after Concord kills and/or scanners become a hostil act ;).
Urmaris	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:12:00 - [85] secure containers doesn`t help. they are scanned as well. risk for gankers? where? they can check and choose the prey without risk, so they are always in a win situation, while the prey can`t do anything against it (and we already read that escort and such is said to be senseless). best would be a module that can be fitted to prevent fast scanning. another point that i would add is that the insurance doen`t pay anything to the aggressor inside empire (except for wars). no insurance policy would cover THAT risk. wbr Urmaris
Shintai Gallente IonTech Corporation	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:16:00 - [86] Its amazing how much crap we hear about waaah waah autopilot dont use it. When most of the attacks is done at station undocking or when you are to warp from one gate to the other. Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry
Cedri	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:17:00 - [87] Autopilot is the BEST feature ever! Hopefully CCP can come up with other fun buttons
Dimagus	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:20:00 - [88] Options Bad 1) Flag aggression (Flashy red) for scanning in high sec. Presents opportunity for target to aggress the gankers without concordokken, but at the expense of giving the gankers free loot without concordokken Bad 2) Concordokken for scanning in high sec. Hinders an entire profession for no real reason, and justifies CCP's laziness on never fixing remote repping concordokken. Good 3) Remove insurance payouts for ships that have been concordokken. Reduces an ISK faucet and makes sense from a logically standpoint. Good 4) Add a means to counter or reduce the chance of being scanned, both for cargo and for ship probing. No more sitting ducks, make them work for their meals.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:20:00 - [89] Originally by: Urmaris secure containers doesn`t help. they are scanned as well. risk for gankers? where? they can check and choose the prey without risk, so they are always in a win situation, while the prey can`t do anything against it (and we already read that escort and such is said to be senseless). Senseless? Why would say a logistics ship as escort be "senseless"? Blockade runners can warp faster than anybody can lock, and deepspace transports have insane resists, I'd like to see you suicide gank an impel with a guardian repping it. Oh and the risk is called killrights. I know a guy who went around collecting killrights with a bait ibis(it has a cheap t2 bpc inside), and then went around and killed all the gankers. There the risk for you. Its not ccp's fault most people who've been ganked are too timid to actually collect on it. Quote: best would be a module that can be fitted to prevent fast scanning. another point that i would add is that the insurance doen`t pay anything to the aggressor inside empire (except for wars). no insurance policy would cover THAT risk. Yes why use your brain when you can just whine till ccp does the thinking for you!
Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider	Posted - 2008.02.27 11:41:00 - [90] Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 27/02/2008 11:43:17 First off I will say that you will have some splanning to do if you ECM CONCORD. EDIT: Not sure if CONCORD could even be ECM'ed but if they could and you did, they would not be very happy. Secondly, along the lines of the famous quotes "Don't fly what you can't loose" and "You are only safe if you are docked in station" we should add that, "If given the time your cargo hold will be scanned. And; if it is worth it you will be ganked" The shorter version: "You will be Scanned and Ganked!!!" ALL !'s SIGN HERE ____________________________________________________________________________________________ Slade Trillgon Siorai Iontach Brotherhood of the Spider "Never sit with your back towards the door and always leave yourself an out." Meehyn Logistics - EVE's Auction House

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