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Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.02.18 16:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
As we all know EVE is a sandbox and this is a feature which makes it so special. Unseen by most players, I discovered a core problem in the sandbox. As long as a user just uses the provided features everything is good. The problem appears in cases of putting real money in the game aka PLEX buying from CCP or from GTCs converting them to the game. Unlike other MMORPGS where this feature is implemented, EVE as a sandbox has a total loss factor. A customer who buys a PLEX for real money to sell it for game items as ISK etc. has no guaranty for what he gets in return. In fact what he gets in return is at random, it doesnt depend only from him but also from the actions of other players. A total loss in such case ( scam, suicide gank etc. ) is a total loss of real money and as a result a wealth damage. This procedure is an exactly as one in gambling games, where a participant pays for a chance. Here it comes, at least in Germany where i am from ( I believe in USA and EU also ) a consumer has the right to revoke a money transaction if an organization which provided the game did it so without proper autorisation from the state and without an explicit warning about the gambling factor before the consumer could make his decision of buiyng or not buiyng the product.
CCP could be providing an illegal gambling if the rules allow "fraud between players" and if an finacial ante (-> PLEX) has to be paid in exchange of a prospect of preservation of assets, because then the decision of gain/loss depends only at randomness whether and how many "scammers", gankers etc. you will met.
"Those who offer a fee-based gaming for financial like "game currency" and allow fraud, lotteries, "false-banking", "fake fonds" are exceeding the limit between legal game of skill and unallowed organization of (random-based) gambling games." ( German Consumer protection organization Rhineland-Palatinate )
Thinking further this opens a legal possibility to PvP without any losses, because everybody who buy ISK through PLEX can claim the loss for his Ship as a random factor and revoke the transaction.
I suggest CCP has to change the reimburse policy in this cases unless a total collapse in near future. |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
184
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 16:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
0/10
WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
60
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Posted - 2012.02.18 16:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
It is not because of chance whether or not someone loses a plex in combat, it is because of stupid.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
28
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Posted - 2012.02.18 17:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands
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Feligast
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1108
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Posted - 2012.02.18 17:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm from the Internet, therefore, I KNOW THE LAW. |
NiGhTTraX
Operational Urban Zion Order
O.U.Z.O. Alliance
27
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Posted - 2012.02.18 17:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
ROFLMAO. That is all. |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
15
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Posted - 2012.02.18 18:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Methinks the OP lost the ship he paid for with plex and is now vexed.
In order to play eve you don't need to buy plex.
If you buy plex you do it to convert to ingame currency. If you lose what you purchase with that ingame currency it's your own fault. No one ever said EvE was fair. It's about as fair as real life. Not very. Get over it.
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Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
186
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Posted - 2012.02.18 18:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:It is not because of chance whether or not someone loses a plex in combat, it is because of stupid.
I think the OP is more stupid that he looks. He probably bought a big shiny and someone made it go boom and now he wants that game changed to suit him.
Newsflash: this isn't going to happen. Only morons like you getting what you want will bring EVE down, thankfully Darwin Award winners do not last long enough to really cause the game any major problems.
WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
37
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Posted - 2012.02.18 20:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
killorbekilled TBE wrote:dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands
Was this typed on your iphone?
In any case, how long have we had PLEX? We haven't 'collapsed' yet. I also think that a Plex-bought ship was converted into a Jita-bound pinata and batted without mercy a short time ago. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 20:39:00 -
[10] - Quote
Duvida wrote:killorbekilled TBE wrote:dude seriously stfu then if anyone or anything will collapse eve it will be people like you and threads like this what exactly is your intention of posting stuff like this so everyone can get ship reimbursements if they've ever bought a plex? this would collapse the market
that's how i understand your post if Ive got it wrong i don't care my offer to stfu still stands Was this typed on your iphone? In any case, how long have we had PLEX? We haven't 'collapsed' yet. I also think that a Plex-bought ship was converted into a Jita-bound pinata and batted without mercy a short time ago.
Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639
The OP's idiocy revolves around thinking that chance has anything to do with this game. It's not random that you got your **** blown up. And German law applies in Germany, not Iceland, the UK, or anywhere else this game is hosted. |
Inovy Dacella
The Junkyard Dogs
0
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Posted - 2012.02.18 21:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639
The OP's idiocy revolves around thinking that chance has anything to do with this game. It's not random that you got your **** blown up. And German law applies in Germany, not Iceland, the UK, or anywhere else this game is hosted.[/quote]
That has got to be the biggest kill in EVE history! How is it even possible for someone to be that dumb? Load a cyno frigs cargo with PLEX and get ganked! I simply can't wrap my mind around it....  |
Feligast
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1110
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 21:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Inovy Dacella wrote:Then there was this, of course. http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=7334639The OP's idiocy revolves around thinking that chance has anything to do with this game. It's not random that you got your **** blown up. And German law applies in Germany, not Iceland, the UK, or anywhere else this game is hosted.
That has got to be the biggest kill in EVE history! How is it even possible for someone to be that dumb? Load a cyno frigs cargo with PLEX and get ganked! I simply can't wrap my mind around it.... [/quote]
Biggest frigate kill, most likely. Titans cost more just for their hulls, but I get what you're saying.
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Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
62
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Posted - 2012.02.18 22:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ah yes, That kessy will hold a special place in the communities heart for a long time yet.
Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects
Scelus Sceleris.
84
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 23:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ahh, I'd give him 2/10 for trying, but still just a stupid troll when it comes down to it.
BTW - since there is no legal way to convert ISK --> RL Money, your argument is invalid. Nice try though. |
Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 23:30:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tidurious wrote:BTW - since there is no legal way to convert ISK --> RL Money, your argument is invalid. Nice try though.
Sorry, but it seems that like many others the magic spell "EULA and TOS" conjured you. They cannot be broken in cases they did not approve and the easiest way for it if you bought EVE as a CD-Game. To have law power they must be presented to you before you can make a decision to "buy or not to buy". Actually this affects any kind of software purchased in a store. If you were actually one of the lucky guys who downloaded the client directly, well in this case EULA and TOS have law power unless the civil law in your country says something else. For Germany I can say for sure no law power because there are many aspects in the EULA which make your rights as a consumer disappear. If you have any friends who study law in your country, ask them to take a quick look through EULA.
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Tidurious
The Dirty Rejects
Scelus Sceleris.
84
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Posted - 2012.02.18 23:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
Actually, it is implied - installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS. Perhaps YOU should be looking for lawyer friends so that you can understand your mistake.
EVE will not be "dying" because you cannot understand legal precedent. Don't worry about it. |
Vaarkk
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
|
Posted - 2012.02.18 23:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is such a bad post and I hope everyone will stop replying to it. |
Der ToteMann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 00:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tidurious wrote:Actually, it is implied - installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS. Perhaps YOU should be looking for lawyer friends so that you can understand your mistake.
EVE will not be "dying" because you cannot understand legal precedent. Don't worry about it.
Sorry again, it hurts to see how many people doesnt know even their basic rights and bow deep before the dictatorship of companies. Installing software doesnt imply anything. The question for something to apply is to affect your decision of sighning a contract. In cases of software on CDs you cannot make this decision before buying it. In case of a direct download if it was for free you are right. I think this is also why EVE distribution on CDs is so low, the law section in CCP clearly knows that. But again even if "installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS" in case of a direct download, the law power of it is only affected by the prime civil law in your country. You will always have the upper hand if you have a solid and trustfull homebank which can also help you. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 00:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
posting in an "eve is dying" thread |
Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 20:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:posting in an "eve is dying" thread
It is? Darn. I thought it did that last week and got better.
But back to the OP, PLEX buying is perfectly fine. What you do with it, or whatever happens to that said PLEX ingame, is up to you.
I think PLEX is a great option as it allows for a legal outlet for an activity that had been happening anyway, and now people aren't getting banned left and right. And the game is less involved in creating more terrible situations in developing countries for kids that didn't want to be used as bots 18 hours a day. |
Grumpy Owly
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
206
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 21:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sandbox?
I can't see a problem, player buys gtc gets isk as a result, gets potentially more personal sand to use. Seems fine to me.
Plex also means more money in CCP's pocket to potentially re-invest back into the game.
If supply of plex improves to outstrip demand it should in theory drop prices, so more plex injection is surely good atm?
Problem more lies with the importance and greed issues as people now strive to plex for the equivalance of free game time. As such this material importance is effecting peoples values IG and also not helping CCP. But I'll stop there before being accused as a socialist fanboi. 
Griefers are lazy cowards with the current climate of broken player policing systems.
Stop EvE Apathy |
Tinu Moorhsum
Royal Scientific Research Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2012.02.20 12:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Der ToteMann wrote:... nonsense snipped ...
I suggest CCP has to change the reimburse policy in this cases unless a total collapse in near future.
Dude... honestly.
First of all, most people who trade in plex trade "ISK >> PLEX >> Gametime" so they don't have to pay real money for a 2nd or 3rd account. It's a minority that don't know how to make isk, or who don't want to wait to buy a shiny toy who trade $$ >> Plex >> ISK
Secondly, if you do trade $$ for Plex and you put in in a ship to move it in space then you are asking for it. Eve is a game where stupidity is mercilessly (and often quickly) punished. If you got your Velator full of plex blown up by someone then ask not what CCP did wrong that allowed that to happen, ask instead what YOU did wrong that it happened. .... because it's absoluetly and completely avoidable.
And yes, EVE is a sandbox but don't cry that CCP is to blame if someone throws sand in your eyes. That's just part of the game. It's how it works and how it's *supposed* to work.
T-
|
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
134
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Posted - 2012.02.20 14:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
nice thread. Can we have more of them? |
Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
7355
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 15:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:nice thread. Can we have more of them? I'd like a cherry on the next one please. 
Edit: Oh yes the OP. You either buy a plex, or convert a GTC to one. You have your plex and CCP have their money, so at that point the contract is considered complete.
You now have a token you can either buy game time with, or sell for ISK. But what you do with it is down to you and not the responsibility of anyone else.
The only serious matter, is your lack of understanding about the whole process.
CCP Zulu.....
Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
Caldari State
17
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Posted - 2012.02.20 16:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
You buy PLEX with real money, nothing more.
After that, you decide what to do with it. Therefore, you have to live with the decision to undock.
|
Spy 21
Lonetrek Exploration and Salvage
7
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Posted - 2012.02.20 17:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
PLEX do not need to be moved to be used.
Once they are in the game in your hangar, they are your in game assets and you can do whatever you wish to them. You can throw them away, use them, sell them or try undocking with them in your hold ... your call.
Undocking with such a highly valued item in your hold is no more 'gambling' than pointing a loaded gun at your head is and pulling the trigger... sure there is a small chance it won't turn out bad (misfire, bad ammo) but that chance is very slim and totally known before taking the action.
If there was no way to use PLEX other than putting them into your hold and undocking them than the OP might have a point.
Spy |
Xolve
The Suicide Kings
Test Alliance Please Ignore
913
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 21:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Der ToteMann wrote:Sorry again, it hurts to see how many people doesnt know even their basic rights and bow deep before the dictatorship of companies. Installing software doesnt imply anything. The question for something to apply is to affect your decision of sighning a contract. In cases of software on CDs you cannot make this decision before buying it. In case of a direct download if it was for free you are right. I think this is also why EVE distribution on CDs is so low, the law section in CCP clearly knows that. But again even if "installing software and using it gives "Implied Consent" of the EULA and TOS" in case of a direct download, the law power of it is only affected by the prime civil law in your country. You will always have the upper hand if you have a solid and trustfull homebank which can also help you.
Your right- in most countries you have the ability to purchase any software either physically or online, and install it on your machine; your overall 'use' of the software is terms to the End User License Agreement and Terms of Service. There's this little shiny box underneath the wall of text that I'm you you just scrolled through that says 'I Agree' or 'I Disagree'.
You obviously pushed 'I Agree', if you actually read the EULA it would state that all intellectual property belongs to Crowd Control Productions, even when you buy PLEX online, it says that 'this is not a physical commodity, and retains no monetary value'; you are paying for game time, which can be terminated at any time by CCP. Flying a box of PLEX in game, and getting blown up; would be a wholesome example of CCP denying your request for additional game time.
You sound strangely similar to the $1000 PLESK to destroy TEST guy.
Inappropriate signature removed. Navigator. |
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
191
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 21:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
It's already been pointed out why the OP is wrong, he's just waiting for the wambulance to arrive now to carry him and his sense of misplaced entitlement to the emergency room.
WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place... |
Kogh Ayon
Dissident Aggressors
Mordus Angels
30
|
Posted - 2012.02.20 22:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
0/10
Post this **** in "General discussion" please, and change the tittle as "EVE is dying" |
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