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Hack WIlson	Posted - 2008.02.27 23:12:00 - [1] http://myeve.eve-online.com/mb/news.asp?nid=1810
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.28 00:04:00 - [2] What the...? Getting rich off the working class? Do they have any idea what it takes to get a good Hulk or Mackinaw? I've only finished Exhumers II today and I'm going to start mining Ice simply because I want to, maybe a High-sec POS in the future if thats what I want do. How or why is none of their damned business, I'm paying for this game and they are so not telling me what to do. Who are they to determine how ships are to be used? I mined in a Rokh for three months and it worked just fine. I have 0 reasons to go low-sec (crappy ores, pirates) and the last time I attempted 0.0 with an Alliance, the Corp I was in fell apart and it was just not worth it for me (being an industrialist) to try and cope with the Battleship rats, moving goods from 0.0 to High-sec and the constant wars going on between Alliances. I will use my Mackinaw as I see fit! And if they don't agree with that, too bad, I payed and trained for that ship and I'll be damned if they are going to tell me what to do with it. The only thing I could marginally agree on is with the issue of Macrominers and whole corps of Hulks mining out the real high-sec (0.7+) belts, preventing the newer players from trying their hand at mining. Declaring all out war on all High-sec Exhumers will get them a nice war declaration by every single Alliance in EVE who are getting flamed to pieces about their high-sec miners getting ganked. If High-sec mining wasn't intended by Exhumers, they would be like Capitals and all the low-sec restrictions there-to, but that isn't the case. If you ask me, it seems they want to get all the industrialists into low-sec or 0.0 so they can shoot them legally... This is just the 'pros' being jealous at the 'non-pros' who are not in 0.0 but are still having a great time in EVE, well news flash, 0.0 isn't the only way to have fun. So you want to kill me just because I want to mine Ice in high-sec? Whats next? Gonna kill every Bantam coming out of the starting areas? ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.02.28 00:11:00 - [3] I have two toons I play with a pirate and high sec miner. That said I fully endorse high sec suicide runs against afk miners. All it takes is you turn on sound and make sure you fit some sort of tank. Also I'm happy to see the goons pr machine is still at work on all these different goons threads today.
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.28 00:12:00 - [4] I don't mine AFK and my Mackinaw cannot tank a fly due to its crappy CPU. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Dianeces Minmatar Repo Industries	Posted - 2008.02.28 06:58:00 - [5] Edited by: Dianeces on 28/02/2008 06:58:57 Originally by: Thenoran Edited by: Thenoran on 28/02/2008 00:52:36 I don't mine AFK and my Mackinaw cannot tank a fly due to its crappy CPU. If they feel that doing stuff semi-AFK/AFK (mining) isn't fair compared to the effort/input needed for PvP and such, then they should endorse/support ideas for improving mining, I can't help the fact that mining is nothing but firing lasers at roids and then waiting for the cycle to complete, I'd love some more innovation in mining, but don't kill the miners due to the profession's lack of action and effort. Don't put T2 upgrades on? I know making trade offs is a big sacrifice for you, but we've had to do it for quite some time now. I'm sure you'll adapt, or barring that, provide us with a nice kill mail to savor. Edit: Spelling.
Thinah	Posted - 2008.02.28 10:36:00 - [6] That is sooo looosy we lost a Macki fitted with TII Harvesters , TII + named upgrade mining in a can ! So my mate was NOT AFK and got suicided by an cara and a rupture from Goonswarm ca 15 Misk against our 160 Misk Macki So they shouldn¦t talk about shooting Macros, they are just griefers ! my two cent
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.28 11:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Dianeces Edited by: Dianeces on 28/02/2008 06:58:57 Originally by: Thenoran Edited by: Thenoran on 28/02/2008 00:52:36 I don't mine AFK and my Mackinaw cannot tank a fly due to its crappy CPU. If they feel that doing stuff semi-AFK/AFK (mining) isn't fair compared to the effort/input needed for PvP and such, then they should endorse/support ideas for improving mining, I can't help the fact that mining is nothing but firing lasers at roids and then waiting for the cycle to complete, I'd love some more innovation in mining, but don't kill the miners due to the profession's lack of action and effort. Don't put T2 upgrades on? I know making trade offs is a big sacrifice for you, but we've had to do it for quite some time now. I'm sure you'll adapt, or barring that, provide us with a nice kill mail to savor. Edit: Spelling. Problem with that is, a Hulk with 3 Ice Harvesters II and 2 Ice MLU II's will probably be very close to mining Ice in the same amount as a Mackinaw with just one MLU II, but the Hulk will still have CPU to spare for tank. ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
quickshot89 Caldari Imperators	Posted - 2008.02.28 11:32:00 - [8] and what about those corps who have 1 miner and an indy to transport the ore? GS are gonna screw up them, whats unfair is people stealing ore, not mining it, there is plenty of ore in high sec anyway, most of it has little value Imperators, we seek glory and honour
Iris Lyania Caldari Research Excess	Posted - 2008.02.28 12:14:00 - [9] Sadly my alt was on of the victims of GS Jihadswarm campain. One thing for sure, the tank on Your hulk doesnt matter. They will bring whatever they will need to kill the hulk or Mackinaw. I had 2 invuls and a Gistii-A Type running and got ganked by 2x Thorax fitted for DPS. I dont complain or whine, **** happens and i didn't paid attention to my second account while mining ice. I just think their arguementation is a bit crap. "Getting rich off the working class?" Huh ? WTH do they think who the working class is ? Miners or stupid Goons ? the answer is clear. I've no idea what they want to achieve with their campain. Rising the mineral prices ? Rising prices for exhumers ? Moving more ppl to low sec ? Somehow i have the feeling 0.0 life must be even more boring than sitting in a belt and mining ore. I dont see another reason for Jihadswarm-Campain, except it might be stupidity.
Chony Caldari UNITED STAR SYNDICATE Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.02.28 12:54:00 - [10] oh man ppl got killed in a pvp game

Tachypnea Blue Moon Rising Blood and Steel	Posted - 2008.02.28 15:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Chony oh man ppl got killed in a pvp game this
Ice Raven	Posted - 2008.02.28 16:45:00 - [12] here's my 2cents on this matter. Either you put in a petition or stop complaining on what someone else wants to do. Eve is open ended source of free will. No one forces you to play and no forces you to do what you want in eve.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.28 17:45:00 - [13] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 28/02/2008 17:46:07 Originally by: Ice Raven here's my 2cents on this matter. Either you put in a petition or stop complaining on what someone else wants to do. Eve is open ended source of free will. No one forces you to play and no forces you to do what you want in eve. Wrong reply. It should not petitioned as it is not against game rules, but it can be protested in forum as it is against game spirit. EVE is a sandbox game, trying to delete a kind of game stile is against the spirit of the game. They are not doing it for isk, war or territorial control, but only because they are bored to death of sieging and defending POS. At the end of the campaign the result will be that CCP reaction will nerf high sec ganking for all the players, and a reaction is almost guaranteed if this campaign start to hit CCP purse. Using the term Jihad will generate a lot of bad publicity and so it will hit CCP purse.
Tramp Oline	Posted - 2008.02.28 18:57:00 - [14] Yes, it should be petitioned under harrassment. If enough people file harrassment petitions it will get their attention. That being said, you have to remember that the GMs that first review your petition will be the low end low paid paper pushers who's main goal is to close petitions as fast as possible. You'll get the normal 'sorry for your loss but there is nothing that we can do' answer. These guys have very strict rules about what they can and can't do so you'll have to request the petition to be sent to a senior GM. You'll pretty much get the same answer from him so you'll have to get him to give you the name of the director of customer relations (or whatever they call the position) and then call or write the person a letter expressing your position. People at this level are the only ones that will actually get anything done for you. Originally by: Venkul Mul Wrong reply. It should not petitioned as it is not against game rules, but it can be protested in forum as it is against game spirit. EVE is a sandbox game, trying to delete a kind of game stile is against the spirit of the game. They are not doing it for isk, war or territorial control, but only because they are bored to death of sieging and defending POS. At the end of the campaign the result will be that CCP reaction will nerf high sec ganking for all the players, and a reaction is almost guaranteed if this campaign start to hit CCP purse. Using the term Jihad will generate a lot of bad publicity and so it will hit CCP purse.
William Ortega Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.28 19:13:00 - [15] 1. Heh, thats the goons for you 2. Perhaps it is time for me to go into mac/hulk production? 3. Petitions and forum wars won't work. As a player driven sandbox, CCP doesn't have control over players that want to go and smack up other people's sand castles, as long as they do it within game rules. P.S. The one and only thing you can do is ride it out. Unless they are getting loads of small gistii A's from the gank (and wth did you need a gistii A in high sec for anyways? Even in 0.0 my T2 fit with domi hardeners works just fine), continuous ganking is a money loosing proposition. They will get bored eventually. The time it takes for goons to get bored is inversely proportional to the amount of forum whines/petitions/complaints they generate (i.e. for not mathematically inclined among us: the more publicity they generate the longer they will keep at it... it is after all a publicity campaign). Ride it out and adapt and all that . Oh and don't fit 150+ mil worth of mods when 3 mil mods will do just fine. -Willy
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.28 20:08:00 - [16] They're not doing anything illegal in the first place. Hulks and Mackinaws mining ice in highsec, ice that was SUPPOSED to never replenish again anyway (but nobody managed to deplete it yet), meh... blow'em up by the hundreds, please. Hulks and Mackinaws mining ore in random systems, meh, not that appealing, but, an exhumer in highsec is an exhumer nevertheless, so, bye-bye you go too IF YOU DON'T WATCH LOCAL. Again, they're not doing something they aren't fully allowed to do according to the game rules, and NO, it's not harrasement. Stop clogging the petition lines with your carebearish nonsense. And I am saying this as a carebear myself. Also, I couldn't care less what their actual motives are, but the GTC prices have PLUMMETED the past couple of days, and I can't say that's a bad thing... quite the opposite. In other words... go Goons go, kill more Hulks and Mackinaws 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Durka Bizurka	Posted - 2008.02.28 20:10:00 - [17] Very simple solution to this. Set your standings toward Goon to -10.0. When you see a red blip in local, pack it in. I think someone mentioned earlier that the reason Goon is doing this is because they are bored and somehow this achieves their self-congratulatory requirements after displaying to all their incompetence against BoB (remember "losing" the chance to pop that Titan by swarming the system with noob frigates?). Petitions should be reserved for violations of rules and game mechanics. This isn't that. The only semi-legitimate charge that could be levied is "griefing," but that doesn't really apply either. Griefing is interfering with someone else's gameplay. Reinforcing that Empire space is safeR than 0.0 but not completely safe is not griefing. Suicide ganking is a perfectly legitimate tactic. And the more people that whine about Goon's coordinated actions, the longer they'll do it. Goon "owns" Empire Space only in their own minds, after all. My $.02. - DB
Obs Redding	Posted - 2008.02.28 20:26:00 - [18] Well, you could try electronic warfare drones. If you successfully jam them after they attack, you might live long enough for Concord to intervene or perhaps be able to warp out. You would only need to survive their opening salvo.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.02.28 20:30:00 - [19] Actually being at the keyboard and watching local has a MUCH better effect. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.02.28 20:52:00 - [20] Akita, I think this is the perfect repl to your: "You must be at the keyboard", and you know it perfectly: Originally by: IlIlIlI lIlIlIl If I have picked you out as a target, you are probably dead. With best possible skills, a hulk can align in 17 seconds. If you align to warp out 7 seconds BEFORE I enter the belt, you can get away. With realistic skills, align time is closer to 23 seconds, so you need to hit the warp button 13 seconds BEFORE I enter the belt. Basically, if you see me in belt, you're already dead.

Death4free Caldari R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.02.28 21:14:00 - [21] do carebears not relaise how easy it is 2 b a carebear.... you can sit at a belt all day mining and farming isk for absoliutely nothing but when a bunch of players decide to interrupt your farming you get all upset and start crying on forums now id b the first to destroy goons if i had the chance but what they are doing is funny and it wakens the carebears up to the dangers of playing an internets spaceships game go goons!
Dreximus	Posted - 2008.02.28 22:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Death4free do carebears not relaise how easy it is 2 b a carebear.... you can sit at a belt all day mining and farming isk for absoliutely nothing but when a bunch of players decide to interrupt your farming you get all upset and start crying on forums now id b the first to destroy goons if i had the chance but what they are doing is funny and it wakens the carebears up to the dangers of playing an internets spaceships game go goons! Funny? No. It is good the macrominers and isk sellers are getting their dues; but that is a result of epic fail on CCP's part of cleansing the universe of said evildoers. As it is, suicide ganking has no tangible consequences that matter. I'd be willing to bet that if CCP implemented some 'realistic' (for an advanced society) rules such that suicide gankers were not only popped but also podded by Concord, and then had to spend 48 hours of gameplay in a Concord brig for said action during which no other characters on their account could be played, Goonswarm wouldn't think it so funny either. They'd be whining about how their poor defenseless targets are getting to play when they can't. Though in the real world you suicide bomb, you aren't around to go do it to someone else. The Anti-Carebears like to think how priviliged we are, but we aren't all swimming in the lap of luxury. There are macroers and isk sellers, which I don't consider to be true carebears...they are evildoers and any actions against them are justified. True carebears make their isk the hard way, they're sitting in that hulk that took them a couple months to sc*****every isk together to fit and field, trying to eek out a living in a universe that doesn't want them in it. A universe that without the carebear wouldn't have ammo or ships to fly. But they do it to enjoy escaping from real life, perhaps getting together the minerals to assemble their next ship which maybe, just maybe they'll go out and do some PvP in. Or maybe they'll put it on the market where someone else can buy it and PvP with it, or upgrade it to a T2 ship for a PvP'er. As an interesting aside, anyone who thinks that carebears who actively mine or mission for their money are getting it the 'easy' way should step back and look at Eve's economy, skills, and possibilities. There's at least one way to make billions per month, with next to no risk. No Hulks to lose, no Battleships to lose, maybe a few risks with the initial 5 million or so it might take - which anyone who knows anything about EVE can get within a character's first day running basic level 1 missions. The rest is just training time and profit, and no "I'm going to jihad joo carebearz makin' da ez munnie" is going to stop it. You'd have to shut down the server. And well I doubt griefers would be able to handle losing their fun of crashing other people's fun. But still...mining is slave labor compared to other methods that are available...
Thenoran Caldari Frontier Economics	Posted - 2008.02.28 22:43:00 - [23] Originally by: William Ortega 1. Heh, thats the goons for you 2. Perhaps it is time for me to go into mac/hulk production? 3. Petitions and forum wars won't work. As a player driven sandbox, CCP doesn't have control over players that want to go and smack up other people's sand castles, as long as they do it within game rules. P.S. The one and only thing you can do is ride it out. Unless they are getting loads of small gistii A's from the gank (and wth did you need a gistii A in high sec for anyways? Even in 0.0 my T2 fit with domi hardeners works just fine), continuous ganking is a money loosing proposition. They will get bored eventually. The time it takes for goons to get bored is inversely proportional to the amount of forum whines/petitions/complaints they generate (i.e. for not mathematically inclined among us: the more publicity they generate the longer they will keep at it... it is after all a publicity campaign). Ride it out and adapt and all that . Oh and don't fit 150+ mil worth of mods when 3 mil mods will do just fine. This + Alignment + Not AFK + Watch local + No heavy populated areas = You'll be fine ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Miika Finsa	Posted - 2008.02.28 23:23:00 - [24] The goons are idiots. You know, because 100% of the people mining in empire are all doing it for months at a time and fat with cash. I know a lot of people that have alts in empire to mine and what not so they can directly fund their pvp characters in 0.0 because it's a safe way to keep their pvp addiction going. No, more likely the goons got into a circle and though hey, what's an easy way to say we cause tons of isk loss in the game. oh yeah suiciding on ships that really can't defend themselves.
Athus The Nietzschean Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2008.02.28 23:29:00 - [25] Edited by: Athus on 28/02/2008 23:29:35 I think pretty much that this jihadswarm garbage is lame. here we have this huge old alliance doing exactly what I expected them to do. they are so pwned by bob and back to pretty much t1 gear to fight the war that they have to take out their frustration in high sec. And not only on just any of bobs folks in high sec that are mining but everyone, EPIC FAIL. how is ganking every mack and hulk in sight going to stop bob? it's not. how are you going to stop anyone from mining in empire.. BZZT EPIC FAIL again, you can't. Not every miner is freaking rich either, some struggle to get all thier gear. And all you other folks out there who always wine carebear this and carebear that.. get over it. If it was not for the miners and other industrialists all the markets would suck.. you would not have nice ships and mods to get off market.. Jita would not have good prices ( Even though it is lag city ) and I sure as H#ll don't see CCP going out to mine and give you stuff for your pew pew ships..
Durka Bizurka	Posted - 2008.02.29 02:18:00 - [26] CCP, there is a logical correction to this, if you're interested in some possible solutions: Allow the mining/manufacturing community to EXCLUDE individual characters, corporations, or alliances with whom they will do business when setting market orders. When these goons have to pay 50 ISK per unit of Tritanium because they end up blacklisted on the market, then maybe the mutual respect will come back. Until then, I say F them and the bumblebee they rode in on. - DB
Lanikai Kapu	Posted - 2008.02.29 02:42:00 - [27] Unfortunately, it is now not just GS. There are now several pirate corps that have jumped on the GS band wagon. Also, there is no protection against suicide ganking of a Hulk/Exhumers. The game mechanics prevent it from happening and the ship is doomed to pop. There is no way for a gang member to protect a hulk w/out being popped by concord. It's just sad that something like a hulk isn't a "diposable" ship and the losses will set you back 250 mill isk for a fully fitted one. Myself, w/ my six alts have stopped mining. Not worth it anymore. I'd suggest you all do the same. Hop into a cruiser and use your on-board scanner to run/salvage unkowns/cosmic anomylies, or run missions and wait it out. Watch the market go bonkers and the huge increase in ilegal isk sales from those wanting to recover something from there losses. If it isn't fixed or doesn't go away, I'll leave EVE. It's only a game, but if the mechanics prevent me playing it the way I wish to play then I'm out.
Ikelld	Posted - 2008.02.29 04:01:00 - [28] Originally by: Lanikai Kapu Unfortunately, it is now not just GS. There are now several pirate corps that have jumped on the GS band wagon. Also, there is no protection against suicide ganking of a Hulk/Exhumers. The game mechanics prevent it from happening and the ship is doomed to pop. There is no way for a gang member to protect a hulk w/out being popped by concord. It's just sad that something like a hulk isn't a "diposable" ship and the losses will set you back 250 mill isk for a fully fitted one. Myself, w/ my six alts have stopped mining. Not worth it anymore. I'd suggest you all do the same. Hop into a cruiser and use your on-board scanner to run/salvage unkowns/cosmic anomylies, or run missions and wait it out. Watch the market go bonkers and the huge increase in ilegal isk sales from those wanting to recover something from there losses. If it isn't fixed or doesn't go away, I'll leave EVE. It's only a game, but if the mechanics prevent me playing it the way I wish to play then I'm out. I totally agree, this isn't worth me loosing my hulk--which i had to sc*****and save for. Sure, i love eve, but if this gets too bad, i'll go too. no sense in playin a gme thats not fun. ike
William Ortega Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.29 05:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Venkul Mul Akita, I think this is the perfect repl to your: "You must be at the keyboard", and you know it perfectly: Originally by: IlIlIlI lIlIlIl If I have picked you out as a target, you are probably dead. With best possible skills, a hulk can align in 17 seconds. If you align to warp out 7 seconds BEFORE I enter the belt, you can get away. With realistic skills, align time is closer to 23 seconds, so you need to hit the warp button 13 seconds BEFORE I enter the belt. Basically, if you see me in belt, you're already dead. Actually that guy sounds like he likes to toot his own horn way too much (i.e. he sounds like a prat who likes to brag about uber leet skills but doesn't actually get a chance to use them). Noone who has ever spent any time in 0.0 will take 23 seconds to align (I mean WTH is pre align for?). Nobody who has at least an iota of paranoia will be sitting on the warp in point. Anything fast enough to cover 20-50km from warp in point (to warp scrable you) will not have enough dps to pop you before concord arrives (talking about hulks here, not macs). If he is in a big ship then he has added time to lock, etc. If you are at the keys, you are paying attention, take basic precautions, the chances are definitely not in attackers favor. Originally by: Durka Bizurka CCP, there is a logical correction to this, if you're interested in some possible solutions: Allow the mining/manufacturing community to EXCLUDE individual characters, corporations, or alliances with whom they will do business when setting market orders. When these goons have to pay 50 ISK per unit of Tritanium because they end up blacklisted on the market, then maybe the mutual respect will come back. Until then, I say F them and the bumblebee they rode in on. - DB True but I will be the first to buy trit from you for 3 isk and sell it to the goons for 5isk -Willy
William Ortega Grave Diggers Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.29 05:30:00 - [30] Originally by: Ikelld I totally agree, this isn't worth me loosing my hulk--which i had to sc***and save for. Sure, i love eve, but if this gets too bad, i'll go too. no sense in playin a gme thats not fun. ike Space is big, chances are that you hulk is in no real danger, and your survival chances go up even more with basic precautions. No need to blow this out of proportion. For all the delusions of grandeur that the goons, BoB, or other mega alliances may have, the impact of their activities rarely proliferates to all corners of Eve gaming universe. Originally by:** Lanikai Kapu Myself, w/ my six alts have stopped mining. Not worth it anymore. You have 6 alts who all mine in empire? No wonder its getting boring for you. I have 1 alt and I find it challenging sometimes to control 2 accounts at a time. With 6, ofcourse you have to afk. Just so you know, you could throw away (or sell) 3 of those alts and make the same or more money mining in 0.0 (even with pvp thrown in and docking up to avoid gank squads). Hey you can even send you main to rat in the belts while your hulks mine. But of course, this would entail actually playing the game attentively, instead of afk'ing your 6 alts and coming back every 30 mins to transfer ore around. To each his own I suppose, and you're paying your dues just like the rest of us, but meh... -Willy



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