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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:09:00 -
[1]
I'd like to see a removal of the ability to fit two or more microwarpdrives.
The reason is very simple, they are what makes it completely impossible to catch someone who doesn't want to be caught.
I can bear that some people fill their low slots with warp core stabilizers and escape that way - because that situation will change when they revamp EW.
I can also bear that some people have instajumpbookmarks for the entire galaxy, because with the new interceptors and some teamwork they ain't impossible to catch. It justs requires some luck and effort.
What IS impossible though, is when every player in the galaxy uses a travel setup of two (or more) MWDs). They are absolutely impossible to catch in any way.
Example and proof: I used a Stiletto with 3 webs. I locked a guy and had him triplewebbed within the first second from where he dropped at our gate. Result; he jumped through without trouble just as our battleships had acquired their target locks (they even had sensor boosters and I clocked the guy moving at 2km/s before jumping).
This needs to be changed. It makes catching prey impossible (from a pirate's point of view), and it makes catching a pirate impossible (from the bountyhunter's point of view).
Gotta go now, though I would love to argue some more about this :)
/Nightfang
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:12:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 05/04/2004 10:13:32
Nope they are not. Impossible to catch that is.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:23:00 -
[3]
What you do is warp after him in your triple-web Interceptor and catch him at the next gate.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:47:00 -
[4]
What I mean is this; it doesn't matter if I use three webs on a guy and use them almost instantly after he has dropped out of warp at a gate - the effect of multiple MWD's is so powerful not even three webs affecting him before he has gained momentum is enough.
Multiple MWD makes is what makes it impossible to catch people in this game. Bookmarks can be countered, warp core stabilizers can be countered. Multiple MWD's can not.
I welcome you to try it :)
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:58:00 -
[5]
Hey, I'm all for removing the ability to use double-MWD.
I think just putting that into effect would've been preferable to the MWD-hell we currently face (re: cap usage/fitting reqs).
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Odet
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Posted - 2004.04.05 10:58:00 -
[6]
Agreed... impossibel to try and stop those dual MWD frigs... alwayz get away from me. And i use 2 webs sometimes 3 Seriously ridiculous.
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:07:00 -
[7]
I agree with the double mwd thing. ( And not just cause my favorite pirate started the latest thread about it ;) )
Althought I'd rather see a solution like a new skill along the lines of:
Rank 5; Advanced warp field control ( you get the idea )
Skill at alligning stacked warp fields allows usage of a second mwd at a -100% effect penalty 10% effect of a 2nd mwd per level.
Requirements:
lvl 4 acceleration control
lvl 4 high speed maneuvering
So at lvl 1 that 2nd mwd would give a 50% speed boost and at most at lvl 5 250%. That would still give people the option to use it, but it would come much less easily, and only those really dedicated to getting away would use a 2nd mwd and train to get a serious effect from it. And 3 mwds would be impossible.
Didn't spend to much time thinking about it but I would like something like this a lot better then saying you can't use more then 1 mwd period.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:08:00 -
[8]
A possible, and somewhat balanced solution (as I see it) would be to maybe allow multiple MWD as it is now, but greatly reduce the momentum gained by firing two at once.
This way it would be a viable option if you were desperate to run a blockade, but well outfitted campers with interceptors and so would be able to multiple-web you before you had gained enough momentum for it to be an invincible tactic.
As it is now you jump to an instant 2km/s the same time you click your two microwarpdrives - that really has to be changed. Really.
Possible solution in game-mechanic terms; Make it so that every MWD gives speedboost calculated from base speed. Two MWD's would then give 400% + 400% bonus (800%) instead of 400% * 400% (1600% from base speed)
Correct me if my math is wrong, but I'm quite sure this is how it works now :/
/Nightfang
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Silverlancer
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:12:00 -
[9]
NO. Reasons:
1. It takes AGES to find hidden roid belts (the only way to mine solo in 0.0, and no they're not safe from rats either... they're just slightly safer than a normal belt). Using 2 MWDs is the ONLY decent way to find them fast enough.
2. People with multiple MWDs are sacrificing a LOT. If they have 4 MWDs on (enough to have 3 webbers on them and still be moving at 2000m/s), that means they have FAR less shield/cap--when they gate, they'll be basically out of cap--you can catch them.
3. MWDs are just like ECCM in many ways. They're the counter to webifiers. If CCP limits the number of MWDs to say, two... whats to stop pirates from having 3 interceptors a gate with 2 webifiers each? No way to escape, no matter what. Even if they had 6 MWDs, there would be no way to escape.
4. See above. Even if each pirate ship was limited to 2 webifiers, there could be multiple ships. So this really isn't fair--its like limiting the number of warp core stabs.
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:17:00 -
[10]
Catching him before he jumps or bringing HIS speed down isn't the only possible way to get someone.
Come on Nightfang you can do better than that :P.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:19:00 -
[11]
 Quote:
NO. Reasons:
1. It takes AGES to find hidden roid belts (the only way to mine solo in 0.0, and no they're not safe from rats either... they're just slightly safer than a normal belt). Using 2 MWDs is the ONLY decent way to find them fast enough.
2. People with multiple MWDs are sacrificing a LOT. If they have 4 MWDs on (enough to have 3 webbers on them and still be moving at 2000m/s), that means they have FAR less shield/cap--when they gate, they'll be basically out of cap--you can catch them.
3. MWDs are just like ECCM in many ways. They're the counter to webifiers. If CCP limits the number of MWDs to say, two... whats to stop pirates from having 3 interceptors a gate with 2 webifiers each? No way to escape, no matter what. Even if they had 6 MWDs, there would be no way to escape.
4. See above. Even if each pirate ship was limited to 2 webifiers, there could be multiple ships. So this really isn't fair--its like limiting the number of warp core stabs.
Can't comment on Nr 1), since I'm trying to enhance the PvP field here and not the roid seeking life. Use frigates with nanofibres and a single MWD to achieve the same result and then BM the location?
Nr 2) Those sacrifices mean *nothing* since they are perfectly safe from any situation where they will need cap/shields. They don't need to have 4 MWD's fitted - all they need is two. That way they can achieve enough speed before all the interceptors in the world can target and web them. This is so because two MWDs have the effect of giving godlike speed instantaneously.
Nr 3) and 4). If a gatecamping party has taken such massive steps to stop people at a gate - they should be able to stop people at a gate. Pirates, anti-pirates and privateers alike.
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:21:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Catching him before he jumps or bringing HIS speed down isn't the only possible way to get someone.
Come on Nightfang you can do better than that :P.
I don't see you contributing anything useful to the discussion other than "Haha, I have a secret I won't tell you." Until you actually have something to say your words and "arguments" mean nill. Mostly because there is no argument.
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Peek Aboo
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:24:00 -
[13]
Another gate-camper complaining about how it's soooo difficult... I don't have 100% successs...  wwwaaaa!!!
I thought this game was supposed to be a challenge? Is sitting in a battleship podding frigate pilots really a challenge?
Double MWDs are a real handicap for anything other than going fast. That's penalty enough.
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:29:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Another gate-camper complaining about how it's soooo difficult... I don't have 100% successs... wwwaaaa!!!
I thought this game was supposed to be a challenge? Is sitting in a battleship podding frigate pilots really a challenge?
Double MWDs are a real handicap for anything other than going fast. That's penalty enough.
Get a clue and learn to read. Or get a clue and get in touch with our group of people. But most importantly; get a clue...
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1FSTCAT
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:33:00 -
[15]
Edited by: 1FSTCAT on 05/04/2004 11:34:29
sorry I say tough to you If the pilot chooses a multi MWD frigate to run the blockade good on him sounds like he has gone to a lot of trouble to avoid you
Just nail the indy pilot behind him like every one else does or the cruiser or the battle ship or the shuttle anyway just use a smart bomb or maybe a mine field
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:36:00 -
[16]
I'm not talking about dual MWD frigates here - I just saw a Thorax whip by us without even having issues with it. I've seen several BS do the same...
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:39:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
Another gate-camper complaining about how it's soooo difficult... I don't have 100% successs... wwwaaaa!!!
I thought this game was supposed to be a challenge? Is sitting in a battleship podding frigate pilots really a challenge?
Double MWDs are a real handicap for anything other than going fast. That's penalty enough.
Get a clue and learn to read. Or get a clue and get in touch with our group of people. But most importantly; get a clue...
That's like asking a rock to grow a brain.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:50:00 -
[18]
Doing some gate campping - Eh, Nightfang? 
hehehheh i thot so 
-------------------------------------------
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Zonia
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Posted - 2004.04.05 11:59:00 -
[19]
As I see it if you fit your ship to run blockades and get from point A to point B you SHOULD be very difficult to kill, it¦s not like your going to do anything else on your 3MWD Vigil than run like hell. A multi-MWD ship is utterly useless in anything but running, so it should be quite good at it.
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Cleric
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:00:00 -
[20]
You might as well just tell everyone to never venture out into 0.0 space without a fleet of ships as escort
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:03:00 -
[21]
I agree that someone set up for running should be hard to catch, but not impossible.
Multiple MWD frigates are easy to catch, it's just a matter of how many slots on a battleship you dedicate for smartbombs.
As it is now EVE might as well have a consentual PvP-system, because you cannot catch someone not wanting to. This goes both ways and dual MWD is one of the problems in why this is so...
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:18:00 -
[22]
Use 2 Interceptors / Frigs, camp for warpers not jumpers.
With decent skills you can run 1 MWD indefinately so keep it always on even while waiting, that way you can pounce on the target as soon as he decloacks.
Immediately hit him with a total of +4 warp scramble. That should be 1 med slot for each Frig. You have just secured 25 secs. Slap a web on him just in case he didn't ingite his mwds immediately. Now Mwd lasts for 10 secs. Thats roughly 2 bursts every scramble. Most Double MWDers will run out of cap after 2 bursts. You could also opt for +2 warp jam and more webbing str.
Now in most cases the Double Mwder will probably have started aligning for warp, if he is not experienced and the warp jamming is enough he'll probably be on auto and his ship will start to stop, in this case his is snared. The designated hitter/s starts hitting, even one web prevents him from accelerating fast enough (compared to the frigs) and even if he does try the frigs / intercepts can stay close enough for him to get another scramble in.
You could forgoe webbing entirely and simply jam and match speed until his cap gives in. But i believe web also creates more panic. Stiletto's are the best ship for this role. 4 slots could be used for 2 MWD, 1 web, 1 +2 warp scrambler (Needs Micro Aux Power Core). Or 1 Mwd 2 web 1 scrambler.
If he is smart he 'll run back to the gate and try to head back. Unfortunately there isn't much you can do about this except from jumping back as well and trying to do the same thing. Bad thing is he can rinse and repeat for as long as he likes cause of the 1 minute cloak.... gives him time to recharge cap. Alternatively your target can try and kill the frigs.
Of course this is involves much more work that the simple LOCK TARGET , F1-6 , ALT-F1, scoop cargo can, but you wanted a counter and here it is.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:23:00 -
[23]
No offense, juan, but please READ the points I've been trying to make.
You're all right about your gatecamping tactics, but I already know them. This wasn't a "how do I catch people at a gate"-post, this was a post adressing the issue of people being able to travel from point A to point B 20 kms further away *before* an indefinate amounts of webs can do anything about it.
If we catch them jumping in they can MWD back to safety from where they came. If they come warping in, they MWD to safety.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:25:00 -
[24]
How about this for a simple trick:
Park a couple of derelict industrials at the point where ships come out of warp at the next gate. Indies are sticky and stop battleships dead
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:36:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Juan Andalusian on 05/04/2004 12:38:53
Quote:
If we catch them jumping in they can MWD back to safety from where they came.
If the target is cautious, smart and fast enough to react like this and get away then he deserves to. Honestly how many actually turn back?
You still have the upper hand though cause obviously his goal of passing through your system has not been achieved, and apparently he is aware that he can't pass. So you can spend a 100 isk and offer him a nice "pay me and you pass" deal.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Alowishus
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Posted - 2004.04.05 12:42:00 -
[26]
First, just because you can't catch them doesn't mean it's impossible.
Second, are you asking CCP to make it so that nobody can get away from you ever? What makes you think you are so special?
Going back to the first thought, if you chase them long enough they won't have any cap left and they will be a sitting duck. But, damn, that might require some effort!
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.04.05 13:24:00 -
[27]
LOL Juan, and then he releases drones and fires a volley of FoF at you. Get a clue please.
I would write a long post here explaining why more than one MWD needs to go and you can use AB if you really need to go faster, and why warp core stabilizers need to be made activated modules again, and why warp distruption range needs to be increased to 30km in order to compensate for EVERYONE using instajump bookmarks. But I won't because i've already cancelled my accounts. 
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 13:30:00 -
[28]
Quote:
First, just because you can't catch them doesn't mean it's impossible.
Second, are you asking CCP to make it so that nobody can get away from you ever? What makes you think you are so special?
Going back to the first thought, if you chase them long enough they won't have any cap left and they will be a sitting duck. But, damn, that might require some effort!
Let me explain something to you - which, I supposed till now, was basic knowledge.
IF I web them and they dual-MWD away, I CANNOT follow them because gate won't allow me. By then they will have replenished their cap threefold.
If I DON'T web them, we're not really doing anything, are we?
You're better than most, because you - at least - could read. But think twice before writing...
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SKiNNiEH
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Posted - 2004.04.05 13:31:00 -
[29]
First let 'em fix the whole "why pirates always win" thing, and then we can talk about the fitting of MWD's.
Multiple MWD's is for going from station to station, if you insist on camping choke points then you have to live with people using more MWD's. Else, might i suggest going deeper into 0.0 for a change and search around in belts... Oops i forgot, pirates are lazy.
-------
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Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.04.05 13:44:00 -
[30]
Petty people turn this into a "pirates are lazy" thread. Others realise this does not only affect pirates but also pirate hunters and corp warfare mercenaries...
As well as regular corps doing warfare in other alliance's space.
Look beyond the fact that *I* am a pirate and observe the whole picture, please?
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