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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.28 20:49:00 -
[1]
OK, I've moaned a bit about a 249km 'hard cap' on locking range.
I'm wondering. Does it still serve a purpose?
I'm genuinely curious, as ... well, I consider any form of 'hard cap' on a ship capability to be bad.
Scorpions, Ravens, Rokhs, Hyperions, and now Apocalypses are all able to hit past 250km.
So... anyone happen to know why this cap exists?
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:01:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: James Lyrus
OK, I've moaned a bit about a 249km 'hard cap' on locking range.
I'm wondering. Does it still serve a purpose?
I'm genuinely curious, as ... well, I consider any form of 'hard cap' on a ship capability to be bad.
Scorpions, Ravens, Rokhs, Hyperions, and now Apocalypses are all able to hit past 250km.
So... anyone happen to know why this cap exists?
/signed, remove the cap
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
General Meridus
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:10:00 -
[3]
I seem to remember some time back many complaints about snipers on gates. In addition the devs at the time were making a big deal about trying to make combat a close up afair. There were blogs being written about having fleet warfare becoming more varied. mods and ammo were nerfed AND they added the hard cap. As I recall, after the nerf none of the ships were able to hit the cap. Now over the past year or so, new devs have changed things so several ships can pass the cap. From this vantage point, what perhaps made sense then, looks silly now.
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Lelulie
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.28 21:40:00 -
[4]
Grids are 500km big, locking cap is half that.
POS stuff and NPCs work on a 250 cap also.
You can't just change the cap willy nilly for a few ships that can barely do something past it and your silly t2 rigged setups that say BSs can do Ibis damage at 300km+
It's a pointless change that would take a bunch of work to perform, being 249km away from enemies at max locking range is enough already.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.28 22:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lelulie
Grids are 500km big, locking cap is half that.
POS stuff and NPCs work on a 250 cap also.
You can't just change the cap willy nilly for a few ships that can barely do something past it and your silly t2 rigged setups that say BSs can do Ibis damage at 300km+
It's a pointless change that would take a bunch of work to perform, being 249km away from enemies at max locking range is enough already.
Actually, poses do shoot further than that.
And ... if grids are 500km across, why can one only shoot half way if one's near an edge?
I don't mind in the slightest if combat ranges were overall, lower than they are, but as it is, it really does make me sad to just have some arbitrary hard limit on ... well anything.
Can you imagine the uproar if battleships were capped out at 800dps? Or interceptors couldn't go past 7km/sec?
*shrug*. An unrigged Rokh with spike, will do 274km. It's advantage is optimal, and not damage - it therefore strikes me as unreasonable that it cannot therefore ACTUALLY fully use it's optimal.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.02.28 22:29:00 -
[6]
Originally by: General Meridus
I seem to remember some time back many complaints about snipers on gates. In addition the devs at the time were making a big deal about trying to make combat a close up afair. There were blogs being written about having fleet warfare becoming more varied. mods and ammo were nerfed AND they added the hard cap. As I recall, after the nerf none of the ships were able to hit the cap. Now over the past year or so, new devs have changed things so several ships can pass the cap. From this vantage point, what perhaps made sense then, looks silly now.
I'm fairly sure that there was a time when ECMs had infinite range. And so scorpions could jam at 500km. Clearly, that's no longer the case though, and hasn't been for quite some time.
I'm just curious, as to whether the locking cap is a hangover from this time, or if there's actually a game design reason why it needs to stay.
I mean, there's still grid edges, and you can still have a ship 10km away that you can't 'see' or lock.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Bronson Hughes
Knights of the Wild
Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2008.02.28 22:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 28/02/2008 22:29:32
Originally by: Lelulie
You can't just change the cap willy nilly for a few ships that can barely do something past it and your silly t2 rigged setups that say BSs can do Ibis damage at 300km+
With BS V, a pair of T2 Sensor Boosters, and a pair of T2 Tracking Enhancers, a Rokh can lock at 249km and hit 253km optimal without rigs. That's hardly a silly t2 rigged setup.
As long as there is a 249km locking cap, the Rokh and several other Caldari ships cannot live up to their true potential.
Does that mean that I think the cap should be removed/changed? Eh, that or something else to compensate ships that can hit that far out for their lost potential.
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"I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne |
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Intruders.
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Posted - 2008.02.29 00:24:00 -
[8]
the one reason i would see is to actually keep what tiny ammount of balance that remains in terms of the diffrences in the races sniping ships since the addition of scripts (read tracking comp/sensorbooster nerf) the minmatar and to a very slightly lesser extent the amarr (this will be less the case after the apoc change tho i disagree with giving it only 7.5%) are really trailing behind since
base lock range in order highest to lowest goes caldari > gallente > amarr > minmatar
optimal for guns goes rails > beams > artillery
tracking for guns goes beams > rails > artillery (starting to notice a trend yet?)
the only one the other way around is scan resolution where it goes minmatar > amarr > gallente > ca;dari however for some reason this is a smaller diffrence than lock range.
on top of that the rokh (caldari sniper) gets bonuses to optimal and the megathron (gallente sniper) gets bonuses to tracking.
Since it was made even harder for amarr/minmatar to match the range of the other 2 race with the introduction of scripts (with no advantages to be had from their lower range either DPS is equal effective HP is less) the lock range limitation is all that has kept them from becoming completely obsolete.
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Dristra
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
The Dawn of Darkness
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Posted - 2008.02.29 09:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: General Meridus
I seem to remember some time back many complaints about snipers on gates. In addition the devs at the time were making a big deal about trying to make combat a close up afair. There were blogs being written about having fleet warfare becoming more varied. mods and ammo were nerfed AND they added the hard cap. As I recall, after the nerf none of the ships were able to hit the cap. Now over the past year or so, new devs have changed things so several ships can pass the cap. From this vantage point, what perhaps made sense then, looks silly now.
If this is true then it's time to fix it, hard limits are bad.
Support the introduction of well thought out Amarr solutions!
I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them. |
Lelulie
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.02.29 09:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 28/02/2008 22:29:32
Originally by: Lelulie
You can't just change the cap willy nilly for a few ships that can barely do something past it and your silly t2 rigged setups that say BSs can do Ibis damage at 300km+
With BS V, a pair of T2 Sensor Boosters, and a pair of T2 Tracking Enhancers, a Rokh can lock at 249km and hit 253km optimal without rigs. That's hardly a silly t2 rigged setup.
As long as there is a 249km locking cap, the Rokh and several other Caldari ships cannot live up to their true potential.
Does that mean that I think the cap should be removed/changed? Eh, that or something else to compensate ships that can hit that far out for their lost potential.
I was talking about his T2 rigged Mega's etc that can barely hit past 250.
The point is this only really benefits a few Caldari and the new Apoc for normal setups, not enough to warrant an overhaul of grids and targetting across Player and NPC platforms for most aspects of EVE.
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Trigos Trilobi
X-Fire
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Posted - 2008.02.29 11:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
As long as there is a 249km locking cap, the Rokh and several other Caldari ships cannot live up to their true potential.
Does that mean that I think the cap should be removed/changed? Eh, that or something else to compensate ships that can hit that far out for their lost potential.
From the top of my head, tempest with 4 range mods will have optimal at ~160km and a rokh without any mods will have ~35km more than that. Tempest has slight advantage (10%ish) in dps and a slight advantage in tracking if some of those 4 mods are TEs. For comparison, Rokh with 2te2tc fit can have that same ~160km range with navy lead ammo, which results in about equal damage and 4 times the tracking.
In short, even if the 250km lock range cap limits the range bonus somewhat, I think it is safe to say that 4 extra slots to fit tank/eccm/sensor boosters/whatever qualifies as 'something else to compensate...'
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Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.02.29 16:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Lelulie
Grids are 500km big, locking cap is half that.
POS stuff and NPCs work on a 250 cap also.
POSes can hit anything on grid given the right guns and ammunition. Minmatar POSes in particular have a very nasty reach.
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"I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..." |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.03.01 09:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 01/03/2008 09:54:11
Originally by: Trigos Trilobi
Originally by: Bronson Hughes
As long as there is a 249km locking cap, the Rokh and several other Caldari ships cannot live up to their true potential.
Does that mean that I think the cap should be removed/changed? Eh, that or something else to compensate ships that can hit that far out for their lost potential.
From the top of my head, tempest with 4 range mods will have optimal at ~160km and a rokh without any mods will have ~35km more than that. Tempest has slight advantage (10%ish) in dps and a slight advantage in tracking if some of those 4 mods are TEs. For comparison, Rokh with 2te2tc fit can have that same ~160km range with navy lead ammo, which results in about equal damage and 4 times the tracking.
In short, even if the 250km lock range cap limits the range bonus somewhat, I think it is safe to say that 4 extra slots to fit tank/eccm/sensor boosters/whatever qualifies as 'something else to compensate...'
I'm sorry, that's not going to fly. That's like saying 'but you can already tank 500dps on your battleship, but that's ok, because you have some spare lowslots now'.
And I apologise, but my minmatar skills are not great, so I can only fly phoons with named large guns.
But I came up with this:
Long range 1400s
Maybe not a viable fit - it has no sensor boosters for example, but I think you'd be able to get sensor boosters on a Maelstrom or 'pest (which I can't fly).
Looks to me like that hits at a good ol' long range.
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Crane needs more grid
249km locking? |
Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.03.01 13:11:00 -
[14]
I believe the grid granularity is more like 1000 km not 500 km. A quick run reveals objects disappear at roughly +-400 km from the beacon so maybe it's somewhere around a 800 km grid.
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Buyerr
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Posted - 2008.03.01 14:19:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Buyerr on 01/03/2008 14:21:48
Originally by: General Meridus
I seem to remember some time back many complaints about snipers on gates. In addition the devs at the time were making a big deal about trying to make combat a close up afair. There were blogs being written about having fleet warfare becoming more varied. mods and ammo were nerfed AND they added the hard cap. As I recall, after the nerf none of the ships were able to hit the cap. Now over the past year or so, new devs have changed things so several ships can pass the cap. From this vantage point, what perhaps made sense then, looks silly now.
... no it was set in there because ecm didn't have a optimal at first which means you could ecm from 300km.
etc..
cap should be removed and warp in point should be optional op to 500km, +-
(actually warp in point should just be a click on the tactical map overview on where you wanted to warp to excatly. it is so stupid that you need to warp to something instead of just where you want.)
ps:the whole sniping thing is back from the day's before the t2 ammo got nerfed and the 50% extra hp, which had the effect that 2-3 sniper ships could almost instantly destroy any normal ship that came in.
this is not a problem now because of the extreme nerf to t2 and the 50% extra hp.
which now means that even with 5 sniping ships at 200km+ you would have more then enough time to warp of in your bs
I declare war on stupidity |
JabJabVVV
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.01 14:24:00 -
[16]
EFT stats aside; the fact that Caldari are the least used race in any sniper fleet battle (despite the fact that they are supposed to be specialists at exactly that) would suggest that something is not right. Apart from this; hard caps are undesirable and unless someone can come up with a decent reason to keep it then it should be removed. The best argument so far has been that Amarr and Minmatar snipers are already almost obsolete and removing the range cap would make them completely defunct... 2 minutes looking at a few killboards is enough to show you that this is completely untrue.
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When I was a n00b, I spake as a n00b, I understood as a n00b, I thought as a n00b: but when I became pr0, I put away n00bish things. |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2008.03.01 16:16:00 -
[17]
I think with the addition of scripts and the nerfs accompanying them the cap is no longer needed. If ships want to hit that far out, they must trade off locktime and tracking and that seems fair enough to me.
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2008.03.01 21:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: James Lyrus
But I came up with this:
Long range 1400s
Maybe not a viable fit - it has no sensor boosters for example, but I think you'd be able to get sensor boosters on a Maelstrom or 'pest (which I can't fly).
Looks to me like that hits at a good ol' long range.
My only question is this. How?!?!?!!?!?
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2008.03.01 23:09:00 -
[19]
Okay, scrap my guess on grid size. It's not that easy to figure out.
I started dropping loot to measure the distances better only to find that this caused all the objects in the area to stay visible. I got out to about 1500 km and decided it wasn't helping.
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IHaveTenFingers
Caldari
ADVANCED Combat and Engineering
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.02 07:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Solbright altalt
Okay, scrap my guess on grid size. It's not that easy to figure out.
I started dropping loot to measure the distances better only to find that this caused all the objects in the area to stay visible. I got out to about 1500 km and decided it wasn't helping.
Not all "Grids" are the same size and shape, on average they seem to be about 775km across (use an anchored control tower to orient yourself and find "north") but there are many exceptions. They are not necessarily cubes, but as far as i can tell they are always rectangular. Perhaps a dev response could explain exactly how grids are defined?
Anyways, 350km cap instead of 250km? plzkthx.
-TF
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Akane Miyamoto
Paisti
Paisti Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.02 08:04:00 -
[21]
Just a reminder to all you minmatar snipers who seem to forget this. Howitzers have the biggest alpha out of all the snipers which makes it the most efficient fleet sniper (Most of fleet fights are within the 150km range anyway)
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The Miyamotos, Chapter #1.5 |
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