Originally by: Royaldo

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tachyon is a size bigger than the others. what you should be comparing is mega beam with 1400 arty or 425 rails.

how do i know this? tomb said it.

and you number freaks..its like watching digi and selim all over again.

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Originally by: Clone 231C

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Me too, All I have ever seen is Tuxford saying that tachyons ARE NOT oversized, so I would like to know where the whole oversized thing comes from.


Too me they look like the long-range blaster equivalent, just with the inherent insane beam fitting requirements.

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Originally by: CCP kieron

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ISK buying is a major contributor to the inflation in EVE's economy.

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Originally by: TomB

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The Mega Beam is the turret kept in line with the 425mm, the Tachyon is a unieq battleship laser only type - can be seen as heavy beam vs. 250mm railgun and medium beam vs. 150mm railgun.

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Quote:

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tuxford: We're definitly considering lowering the volume of projectile ammo. I haven't taken a look at the damage over time recently but iirc it did a bit less than both tachyon and 425mm rails but then I was looking at it with emp fitted which does less damage other turret most high damage ammo, which does not hold true for t2 charges

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Originally by: Agil TradeAlt

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Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 04/03/2008 07:51:53
Actually, it is visulisation that effects peoples perception of no-reload.

For example, if you have 20 mins lag, and thus reloading your guns takes 20 mins. Thus once they have reloaded and the player has clicked to fire, that is another 20 mins on top for the server to register.

This makes people think a 20min lag is actually a 40min lag on guns with reload. This is not actually true, it is a error on the part of players who do not know how to handle lag in reloading ships.

Basically its pretty simple to be honest. Its called reloading in advance. If your ship fires for 5 mins without reloading, then simply hit CTRL-R roughtly 5 mins after you first pass your firing command. Eve stacks up orders and even though you may not have started firing yet, your guns will reload properly after they start firing. You can queue up multiple fire and reloads and walk away from the computer if there is 20mins+ lag. Try it, it works. Since lag is not always 100% even, but a fleet 0.0 player should be able to counter lag. Thats how most Supercap pilots deal with lag.

Therefore people who think amarr lasers are viable due to server lag is not accurate. Game balance over poor server hardware is not fesable or acceptable. Saying "Amarr is fine because server is laggy" is not a good way to approach the game, when the counter is managing lag as described above.

Next, Amarr Alpha is decent for Abaddon, but alpha matters in short term gank situations, such as 50 bs vs 1 cruiser. Heck, ships, capacitor, ammo whatever is hardly relevant, as 50 bs is going to easaly kill a cruiser. So its not fair to represent amarr due to the damage of the first volley, or first second of fire, as most Amarr issues are about balance outside of ganks.

Currently most people assume balance on the assumption that ships have infinite cap, infinate grid/cpu and all enemy resistances are 0. This is clearly false, but all charts with Amarr DPS/Alpha make this fundamental mistake. Most Amarr players have to drop heatsinks to fit cap mods or fitting mods (geddon needs 2 RCU II and 1 PDU II Just for fitting tach with mwd, add in 3 tracking enhancers and thats 7 out of 8 lows taken up, leaving 1 lowslot free. Megathron needs no fitting mods for 425 + mwd, and only needs 1-2 tracking enhancer, thus leaving 5-6 lows free)

So I ask if someone can again put together a chart of ships with damage over time, such as a 10-20min period? This is fairly relistic amount of time for fleet warfare.

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Originally by: Zhulik

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I thought Premium graphics were supposed to fix that bug where people were trying to salvage Minmatar ships.

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Originally by: Dorah Hawkwing

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WTT: Need to reload vs need to re-CAP.

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Originally by: Golden Helmet

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Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5
425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625
1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575

Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.

Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250.
Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700
To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.

Lets look at the Megathron now:

Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375
Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5

Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?

Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375
Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305

Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250
Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750


Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.


Now, I'm used to amarr getting the short end of the stick. We have an assault frigate with one med slot (fix plzkthnx?), we have the small-tier Medium Beam \ Pulse Lasers, which are prettymuch unfitable to their intended class without ruining the rest of your ship. But come on, enough with the Amarr hate already, at least let us fit our tier 2 and 3 battleships with the equivalent that Gallente and Minmatar can (I didn't bring the Rokh up in this because, simply, it's trash. It's damage wouldn't break the tank of a sleeping wet paper bag. Go away caldari fanboys.)

And that'll do it for today. Yes I would like some cheese with my whine. At least I'm posting with my main, unlike probably half the replies from cowards this topic will get

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Originally by: X99 Z990

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Even mega beams are really powergrid heavy.

CPU doesnt look much in comparison but its really tough on amarr ships both PG and CPU wise.

Would be nice to see their fittings reduced. Im not sure what balance issues would arise but they arent often used out of standard fleet setups. With tachyons they do similar damage to mega pulses so should still be fairly tight on fittings, but being able to fit a rack of mega beams without a powergrid mod would be really nice.

General CPU decrease on a lot of lasers would be best i think. The powergrid doesnt bother me as much as the CPU in most cases.

Only beams that tend to get used are dual light beams on crusaders, heavy beams on zealots and tachyons on fleet setups. They are a real pain to use and should be eased up a little.

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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TBH, with the new Apoc, I think Megabeams are better. They allow you to have a much better all-around fit, and you don't actually lose much DPS at all. The only thing that held Megabeams back from being good sniper weapons was their lack of range, which is no longer the case when fitted to the Poc.

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Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: Deschenus Maximus

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TBH, with the new Apoc, I think Megabeams are better. They allow you to have a much better all-around fit, and you don't actually lose much DPS at all. The only thing that held Megabeams back from being good sniper weapons was their lack of range, which is no longer the case when fitted to the Poc.

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Beams overall need a pg fix.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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As soon as Gallente has 800mm Railgun IIs.

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Originally by: Arakidias

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Don't reduce the powergrid, just boost the damage so it's useful to spend that RCU in a lowslot.

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Originally by: Agil TradeAlt

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Originally by: Clone 231C

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Me too, All I have ever seen is Tuxford saying that tachyons ARE NOT oversized, so I would like to know where the whole oversized thing comes from.


Too me they look like the long-range blaster equivalent, just with the inherent insane beam fitting requirements.

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A dev once said that tach have too much fitting for their size a long time ago. Somehow people think this means oversized. The word oversized means nothing, so its a straw man argument. But what I have asked people to do many times, and nobody want to do is to help produce a reasonable realistic chart. The reason I say this is because


1. Most DPS/Alpha charts assume ships have infinite grid, CPU and cap, and therefore only calculate damage from the first second or first volley. I know that the 160km tachy geddon dps is impossible, because it needs 2 RCU II, 1 PDU II, 3 tracking enhancers II and even if geddon had infinate cap, it would not have enough slots to fit the standard 3 damagemod setups that the charts show. So any realistic charts anyone?

2. DPS for ships over time. A simple chart showing dps from realistic setups over a 10-20 min period, as most fleet pvp involving tachy ships are fleet battles. And 10-20mins+ is realistic. How would I get a DPS over tim chart for that?

What tools whould I need to create these charts myself, since I want to see how the ships compare.?

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Originally by: Golden Helmet

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Tachyon II powergrid requirements WITH Adv Weapon Upgrades 5 (which I have): 3712.5
425mm Railgun II without AWU 5: 2625
1400mm Arty II without AWU 5: 3575

Now, go max out your fitting skills. Include AWU 5 on that list. Go try to fit 8 Tachyon 2's on an Abaddon. Yeah... can't do it, can you? Not without fitting mods.

Abaddon powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250.
Powergrid used for 8 Tachyon 2's w\ AWU 5: 29700
To make 8 Tachyon 2's fit, you need one T2 reactor control. Or, if you don't have grid upgrades 5, two reactor controls.

Lets look at the Megathron now:

Megathron powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375
Powergrid used for a full rack of 425mm 2's w\ AWU 5: 16537.5

Hey, looky here, a Mega can fill it's available turret slots with it's top-tier long-range weapon without any help! But, what about Minmatar?

Tempest powergrid w\ eng 5: 19375
Powergrid used for a full rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 19305

Maelstrom powergrid w\ eng 5: 26250
Powergrid used for a rack of 1400 2's w\ AWU 5: 25750


Well whadaya know, Gallente aren't the only ones who can fill their turret slots with top-tier ranged toys! And lets not forget the fact that a single Tachyon 2 uses more powergrid WITH AWU 5 than the others do WITHOUT AWU trained at all. Kinda makes me sad panda.

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Originally by: Angelic Eviaran

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Originally by: Arakidias

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Don't reduce the powergrid, just boost the damage so it's useful to spend that RCU in a lowslot.

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/signed.

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Originally by: Wardeneo

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What? u seen the new sniping apoc it does the most dps at about 200km outa all turrets hitting there best at that rannge.....

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Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban

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It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.

I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.

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Originally by: sdthujfg

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Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban

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It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.

I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.

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The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.

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Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban

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Originally by: sdthujfg

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Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban

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It's been said before, but I'll just emphasize it: Tachyons are over-sized weapons. You can make a safe bet that if all of the streams of weapons had an oversize version, they'd all be a pain in the ass to fit.

I say this as a T2 Tachy user. I won't complain if they do do it, but I don't think it's imbalanced.

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The problem is more that our "normal" sized high tier beam, mega beam is subpar. Wich means we have to fit tachs or be subpar to other snipers.

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Sniping isn't that Amarr game though - pummle the enemy to death is. The idea is the vast amounts of armour allow them to close the gap to use their weapons no matter the damage - big lumberling golden giants of death, in otherwords.

Our normal beams are sub-par snipers because they aren't supposed to be snipers.

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Originally by: Borasao

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Sounds like a plan! Now if we can just actually do the "closing the gap, bit"... especially with our "lumbering golden giants of death"... and maybe having the cap left to actually fire those lasers... That must be the 2. ????

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