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For the love of god, can we tweak tachyons just a bit please?

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Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:11:00 - [121] Originally by: Liang Nuren No, it's absolutely correct. Those ships are just fine, and are inarguably not in need of a boost. If you think the punisher or executioner aren't in need of a boost you are a special little snowflake. If you think the crusader and malediction are "inarguably not in need of a boost" then you are foolish If you think the Punisher, Sentinel are "best in class" or that the Geddon and Abaddon are both best in class[which would be impossible since they are in the same class] then you are beyond help. The punisher and sentinel just plain suck, if you think they are better than say, a hyena, or kitsune, or Keris, or in the case of the punisher, a rifter[or vigil, or incursus]. O.K. i am beyond the "if you think they are better than" because now its just a ***** joke The crusader is not the best 1v1 damage inty as said. It looks like it might be before you fit it, but its not. It has terrible tracking and low dps. OR it must engage within web range. And it doesn't have a web. It terribly low on fitting too. The best 1v1 inties are the taranis, and crow. Now, the Sader is better than the claw, but that ain't saying much. The Punisher suffers the same problems as the crusader. Except its slower, heavier, has much less damage. The Malediction is as bad as the raptor as a tackling interceptor. Quote: Oh, sure, just because it doesn't support your point of view, he must be wrong. No, he is wrong because he is wrong. Quote:** You mean a special ship like... the Apoc, Paladin, and Nightmare? Just checking. Tech 2 battleships and faction ships[which has the damage bonus on the caldari side btw] are not valid specialty ships. As in, ships you can actually use in a niche role. I could go on, but really i shouldn't have to.
Aeo IV Xomic OmniCorporation	Posted - 2008.03.23 02:47:00 - [122] I do think the Tachyon beam II needs to be looked at, or else the Abaddon needs a bigger powergrid.
Veryez Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.23 13:16:00 - [123] Originally by: Goumindong Oveur is wrong about tachs No Goum, Oveur is right and you are wrong. First look at the damage modifier for t2, Medium Beams - 3.6, Heavy Beams - 3.6, Mega Beams - 3.6. Next divide the Damage modifier by the respective ROF to get the DPS modifier. This modifier drops 50% as you increase from frigate turrets to cruiser turrets and again by 50% as you go up to battleship turrets. This is consistent across every turret in the game. Long ranged or short ranged. The Tachyon is in a class by itself.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:05:00 - [124] That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion. They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered.
Nomakai Delateriel Viziam	Posted - 2008.03.23 14:38:00 - [125] Originally by: Veryez No Goum, Oveur is right and you are wrong. First look at the damage modifier for t2, Medium Beams - 3.6, Heavy Beams - 3.6, Mega Beams - 3.6. Next divide the Damage modifier by the respective ROF to get the DPS modifier. This modifier drops 50% as you increase from frigate turrets to cruiser turrets and again by 50% as you go up to battleship turrets. This is consistent across every turret in the game. Long ranged or short ranged. The Tachyon is in a class by itself. Actually Goum is (partially) right if we factor in the inherent ship bonuses into the equation. The three guns are Rails, Hybrids and Lasers and for their gun system each race has a built in bonus present on all their ships using said weapon (with the only notable exceptions being the Abaddon and the Myrmidon) Caldari: +10% optimal Gallente: +5% damage Amarr: -10% cap use Minmatar: -5% RoF Before the modifiers are applied the DPS ratio of each races weaponsystem (425 rails, 1400 artillery and including both megabeams and Tachyons) is (rounded to 4 decimals): 425mm: 3.3/9.56= 0.3451 1400mm: 7.2/23.63 = 0.3047 Megabeam: 3.6/9 = 0.4 Tachyon: 5.4/12.5 = 0.432 This far artillery seems like an utter loser, while rails trade damage for range (beams having the shortest range. But. Once we apply the "inherent bonuses" well end up with Caldari: 0.3451x1 = 0.3451 (optimal altering) Gallente: 0.3451x1.25 = 0.4314 Minmatar: 0.3047/0.75 = 0.4063 Megabeams: 0.4x1 = 0.4 (cap altered to slightly more than a railgun) Tachyon: 0.432x1 = 0.432 (cap altered from "insane" to "still a lot more than railguns"). As you might have noticed a tachyon beam is virtually identical in damage to a gallentean mounted railgun, except that it uses more grid, cpu, cap and has lower range. In exchange it gets slightly increased tracking. It gets more advanced than that of course since a whole other slew factors play in (such as not everyone having their racial battleship trained to 5, number of turrets, grid, cpu etc etc etc), but that's the center of the sniper issue and why the Megathron and Tempest used to be the kings of sniping. The Apoc used to be known to be a really crappy ship. But in reality it was a decent ship which seemed crappy because it was stuck with crappy guns (+5% cap isn't that bad when compared to +7.5% tracking and things like that). The Armageddon in comparison was an OMGWTF ship stuck with crappy guns, as 5% RoF is possibly the best ship bonus in EVE. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Veryez Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.23 15:02:00 - [126] Originally by: Goumindong That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion. They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered. Perhaps you didn't understand me. Tachyons are the only Turrets in the game that don't follow the pattern I described. It isn't rocket science. All turrets follow the pattern I described. As you increase the size of the gun from frigate sized to cruiser sized to battleship sized, the DPS modifier ALWAYS drops by 50%. This is the case for every turret in the game. Thus for beams, the two frigate sized weapons are Dual Light (medium sized) and Medium Beam (large sized), for Cruiser sized they are Quad Light (small size), Focused medium (medium sized) and Heavy beam (large sized), for battleship sized they are Dual Heavy (medium sized), Mega Beam (large sized) and Tachyon (over sized). The DPS modifier (damage Mod/ROF) drops 50% for the following chains: Dual Light - Focused Medium - Dual Heavy and Medium - Heavy - Mega. Those are the comparable sized guns. This is what Oveur said and he is correct. Putting them on a ship isn't necessary to see the pattern, A cruiser that boosts damage by 25% and a Battleship that boosts damage by 25% have not changed to relationship in the DPS modifier between cruiser sized and battleship sized weapons. As far as being better is concerned, Tachyons do 8% more DPS than Mega Beams and have a 50% higher alpha. Mega beams do 30% more DPS than 1400's and 15% more DPS than 425's. So Tach's do 25.2% more DPS than 425's and 40.9% more DPS than 1400's, while having a 63.6% greater alpha than 425's and a 34.2% smaller alpha than 1400's. Obviously those numbers don't take into account ship bonuses or pilot bonuses, but if you assume the pilots have equal skill and ship bonuses are equivalent, the numbers stand. I'll leave it to amarr pilots as to whether that makes them better or not.
Seamus O'Malley Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:22:00 - [127] Gimme 500mm rails and we'll tweak ur tachs
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:30:00 - [128] You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate XIII Legio	Posted - 2008.03.23 17:44:00 - [129] this has been discussed a few times over my years in eve. Comming back June 5th...
vostok Suns Of Korhal deadspace society	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:17:00 - [130] Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Goumindong That Tachyons do not follow the previous mechanics does not mean they are better than the rest, which is the assertion. They aren't. You cant tie the weapon away from the ships. And the ships say that even if you were able to fit a full rack of tachyons and MWD without using fitting mods on an old APOC it wouldn't have been overpowered[and wouldn't have really had much of a role actually]. If you could have done it on an abaddon[with a single fitting mod and an injector] it wouldn't have been overpowered. Perhaps you didn't understand me. Tachyons are the only Turrets in the game that don't follow the pattern I described. It isn't rocket science. All turrets follow the pattern I described. As you increase the size of the gun from frigate sized to cruiser sized to battleship sized, the DPS modifier ALWAYS drops by 50%. This is the case for every turret in the game. Thus for beams, the two frigate sized weapons are Dual Light (medium sized) and Medium Beam (large sized), for Cruiser sized they are Quad Light (small size), Focused medium (medium sized) and Heavy beam (large sized), for battleship sized they are Dual Heavy (medium sized), Mega Beam (large sized) and Tachyon (over sized). The DPS modifier (damage Mod/ROF) drops 50% for the following chains: Dual Light - Focused Medium - Dual Heavy and Medium - Heavy - Mega. Those are the comparable sized guns. This is what Oveur said and he is correct. Putting them on a ship isn't necessary to see the pattern, A cruiser that boosts damage by 25% and a Battleship that boosts damage by 25% have not changed to relationship in the DPS modifier between cruiser sized and battleship sized weapons. As far as being better is concerned, Tachyons do 8% more DPS than Mega Beams and have a 50% higher alpha. Mega beams do 30% more DPS than 1400's and 15% more DPS than 425's. So Tach's do 25.2% more DPS than 425's and 40.9% more DPS than 1400's, while having a 63.6% greater alpha than 425's and a 34.2% smaller alpha than 1400's. Obviously those numbers don't take into account ship bonuses or pilot bonuses, but if you assume the pilots have equal skill and ship bonuses are equivalent, the numbers stand. I'll leave it to amarr pilots as to whether that makes them better or not. Very well said imo, though you must understand, many amarr truly are fanatical fools impervious to fact. It just upsets me that people have to constantly attack these unintelligent? people to stop ccp giving into the whining.
AstroPhobic STK Scientific Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:30:00 - [131] Originally by: Goumindong You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced. Balanced to what? There's nothing else to compare it to. You have an EXTRA weapon, but whine that it's not balanced.... if there's no baseline to balance something, who the hell are you to decide balance? You want to make a 1600mm Howitzer, make it have +500 grid, and give it a 1% increase in damage? Great I say, if I have a spare 4000 grid on my maelstrom, I can get an 8% DPS increase. Awesome. Does it matter that the increase from 1200 to 1400 and 1400 to 1600 is proportionate? No.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 18:54:00 - [132] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/03/2008 18:55:05 Originally by: Goumindong If you think the punisher or executioner aren't in need of a boost you are a special little snowflake. The punisher is hands down tied with the rifter for best T1 frigate. You are a special snowflake, and I've never ever ever heard any other Amarr player *** about the Punisher. Quote: a bunch of lies and whining Dude, seriously, every race has their drawbacks. Pretty much all frigates have to be in web range to deal effective damage. You're just whining now, just like you always do. The whining doesn't help your cause when you mix it with things like "oh noes, the Punisher is teh sux!" Seriously, WTF? Quote:** Tech 2 battleships and faction ships[which has the damage bonus on the caldari side btw] are not valid specialty ships. As in, ships you can actually use in a niche role. Neatly sidestepping that CCP already made a T1 regular Amarr Tach BS in the name of the Apoc. You could go on, of course, but you'd just be spitting out more lies and whines if you did. I'm glad you stopped. -Liang Ed: Goum, you've had some fairly reasonable ideas in the past... but the crap you just posted makes me think you sold the character. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:19:00 - [133] Originally by: Liang Nuren Idiocy. There are two frigates in the game, the rifter, and the vigil. There are no others. If you seriously think the Punisher is a good frigate, tied with the rifter then you need serious help. The crusader is the second worst interceptor in the game, right in front of the abysmal claw, and right behind the raptor and malediction. The Apoc is overpowered, though yes, it can use tachyons[still with two RCU IIs and no less, an onus no other long range sniper needs to meet]. But the goal is not to make ships overpowered but to make ships balanced. You are claiming that tachyons are better than 1400s, and they aren't. Remove the overpowered bonus on the apoc[you should remember why optimal on a beam ship is a bad idea] and it becomes ****ty again, and you can easily see why. Because the guns are so damn hard to fit. There is a problem with Tachyons in that they are so hard to fit, and it really goes with all beams in general.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:27:00 - [134] My god, i cannot believe you people are arguing against balancing the game. Originally by: vostok Now in the name of balance, the point in eve is that to improve your fitting you have to sacrifice something else generally. In the case of making the most damaging sniper in the game, you have to sacrifice a lot, which seems quite reasonable eh? also in face of the new changes to res and to the apoc, not to mention the new paladin, which was frankly made to run tachs, you really have nothing left to complain about. In my personal opinion there was nothing to complain about before 1. Every fleet fit fits an mwd. 2. Megabeams are worthless 3. Range is damage: This is also why the new apoc is overpowered 4. You already sacrifice a lot on the ships that would be the most damaging snipers in the game[the Geddon, and Abaddon] before you sacrifice the 3 RCUs for the Geddon and 2 and an injector for the Abaddon.[Namely cap, a whole lot of cap]. 5. You're suggesting the Paladin as a fleet sniper. The Paladin that has a sensor strength of a cruiser and costs as much as the insured loss of a near fleet of ships alone? Look at tachyons before the Apoc change[which breaks one of the central axioms of balance, and is such a huge problem] and tell me there isn't a problem
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:28:00 - [135] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Goumindong You are missing the point, it doesn't matter if it doesn't follow the same progression, it matters if its balanced. Balanced to what? There's nothing else to compare it to. You have an EXTRA weapon, but whine that it's not balanced.... if there's no baseline to balance something, who the hell are you to decide balance? You want to make a 1600mm Howitzer, make it have +500 grid, and give it a 1% increase in damage? Great I say, if I have a spare 4000 grid on my maelstrom, I can get an 8% DPS increase. Awesome. Does it matter that the increase from 1200 to 1400 and 1400 to 1600 is proportionate? No. Balanced with the other snipers.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:31:00 - [136] Originally by: Goumindong Complete Stupidity Goum, there are far more than two frigates in the game, and the Punisher is easily tied for first place with the Rifter. The fact that you seem to have lost touch with this, means that you simply do not actually play Eve anymore. Even if I accepted that the Crusader is not a great interceptor (which I do not), it's still better than the claw (which rightly should be the best inty in the game, coming from the speed race). So what you're saying, is that the Apoc doesn't matter because you feel that it's overpowered. No, the apoc matters, and it is the tach ship you were asking for. You're simply choosing to ignore it because its not the boost that you wanted. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:44:00 - [137] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong Complete Stupidity Goum, there are far more than two frigates in the game, and the Punisher is easily tied for first place with the Rifter. The fact that you seem to have lost touch with this, means that you simply do not actually play Eve anymore. Even if I accepted that the Crusader is not a great interceptor (which I do not), it's still better than the claw (which rightly should be the best inty in the game, coming from the speed race). So what you're saying, is that the Apoc doesn't matter because you feel that it's overpowered. No, the apoc matters, and it is the tach ship you were asking for. You're simply choosing to ignore it because its not the boost that you wanted. -Liang No, i am saying the apoc should be nerfed because its overpowered. I suppose we could leave the apoc overpowered, yea, thats a good idea. Also, its not, since it requires EGU 5 to fit[unlike all other snipers] If you think the punisher is good you must also think the Maller is good. Due to the nature of their slots they perform the same role, except the maller is only maginally slower and has more hit points, dps, and utility. Clearly the Maller is best in class then?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:48:00 - [138] Originally by: Goumindong Also, its not, since it requires EGU 5 to fit[unlike all other snipers] Therefore the Dominix and Typhoon both need boosts because they are skill intensive? Get a grip. Quote: If you think the punisher is good you must also think the Maller is good. No, I don't think the Maller is good - it's passable though. I'd be a fan of a Maller boost of some sort. The Omen was more necessary though (and wtf fittings?) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Ishtar1 Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:50:00 - [139] cba reading the rest of the thread as said before... tachyons are in a class of there own Small -> Big Dual 250's - 350 rails - 425 rails - tachyons cant remember - 1200mm howies - 1400 howies - tachyons get it?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 19:58:00 - [140] So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable? Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 20:11:00 - [141] Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable? Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 20:30:00 - [142] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable? Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank. -Liang The Augoror is a specialty cruiser which performs its role well. The Bellicose has a strong tackle with good speed, good tank[Dual LSE], and decent dps[from its drones]. The Maller has hit points. But hit points are worthless if you aren't doing anything special with them. Its the same with the punisher, terrible DPS, slow as balls, and 2 med slots in a class of ships which tackle. Its benefit, that it can fit a large tank, is made obsolete by the med slot sub-battleship tanking advantage, and the fact that its a frigate.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 20:32:00 - [143] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong So why is the Punisher best in class and the Maller passable? Just so you know, the Maller is widely regarded as the worst cruiser in the game. It did less DPS than a Caracal and pre-boost Moa I believe that honor goes to the Augoror and Bellicose. At least the Maller can tank. -Liang The Augoror is a specialty cruiser which performs its role well. The Bellicose has a strong tackle with good speed, good tank[Dual LSE], and decent dps[from its drones]. The Maller has hit points. But hit points are worthless if you aren't doing anything special with them. Its the same with the punisher, terrible DPS, slow as balls, and 2 med slots in a class of ships which tackle. Its benefit, that it can fit a large tank, is made obsolete by the med slot sub-battleship tanking advantage, and the fact that its a frigate. So essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't fill the role that you'd like it to, and think is "the best role", so it is naturally complete suckitude and in need of a ginormous boost. Sure. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:01:00 - [144] Originally by: Liang Nuren So essentially what you're saying is that it doesn't fill the role that you'd like it to, and think is "the best role", so it is naturally complete suckitude and in need of a ginormous boost. Sure. -Liang No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.23 21:05:00 - [145] Originally by: Goumindong No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost. Whether you admit it or not, you're saying that it doesn't fill a role that you recognize as being worthwhile. Apparently you do not PVP in lowsec. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.24 05:14:00 - [146] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong No, i am saying it doesn't fill any role, and i would like it to fill a role, so its in need of a boost. Whether you admit it or not, you're saying that it doesn't fill a role that you recognize as being worthwhile. Apparently you do not PVP in lowsec. -Liang I don't pvp against frigates without a propulsion mod by relying on them to enter web range no. And a rifter does it just as well again.
joshmorris AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.03.24 10:57:00 - [147] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me. They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what? Err neutron blasters are hard to fit in the same way tach's are :P Uber idea solves all !!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:10:00 - [148] Originally by: joshmorris Edited by: joshmorris on 24/03/2008 11:05:27 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 02/03/2008 08:56:32 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Tachs have such a high PG requirement because they do FAR more DPS than other weapons. Abaddon, like you said, has 41% more DPS than a Tempest and about the same alpha. Seems fine to me. They also have shorter range? Blasters do highest damage because the have shortest range you know. Are blasters impossible to fit because the do highest damage? Nope. So your point was what? Err neutron blasters are hard to fit in the same way tach's are :P .. maybe No, they are not.
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:22:00 - [149] Tchyons do a lot more damage than 425 rails. It used to be the case that ammar ships had no dps bonus and instead had cap bonus exactly because Tachyons do more damage (same as medium beams -frig guns- and heavy beams - cruiser guns- compared to rails). and even back then the whine was only relevant when comparing Apoc with Mega. Now with Abbadon and Paladin on the game and with the resist changes that will benefit crystals this whole thread can go straght to the dustbin kthnxbye Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Goumindong	Posted - 2008.03.24 11:33:00 - [150] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/03/2008 11:38:03 Originally by: Crellion Tchyons do a lot more damage than 425 rails. It used to be the case that ammar ships had no dps bonus and instead had cap bonus exactly because Tachyons do more damage (same as medium beams -frig guns- and heavy beams - cruiser guns- compared to rails). and even back then the whine was only relevant when comparing Apoc with Mega. Now with Abbadon and Paladin on the game and with the resist changes that will benefit crystals this whole thread can go straght to the dustbin kthnxbye Tachyons + cap bonus vs 425s+ dmg bonus gives two weapons with the same DPS, except the 425s are much much easier to fit and have a longer range. edit: The abaddon requires 2 RCUIIs and an injector to run them. A Paladin is a not a fleet ship, Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

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