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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2008.03.03 02:14:00 -
[1]
How much tank should a PvE mission passive Drake tank for running level 3 and 4s. This is a two part question.
a) What should my Drake's peak self shield regen be? b) Based off of answer a) What should be my Drake's resistance % be? Keep in mind that this is for mission running only so I'll just be fitting shield hardeners/resistors to fit the damage type of my up coming mission.
Its just that when I'm building a Passive Drake in EFT I don't know when to stop, when too stop the tank and start the gank.
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Elsism
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Posted - 2008.03.03 02:27:00 -
[2]
Tank. Tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank, tank and more tank. I dedicate all but the highslots to the tank on my PvE Drake, best way IMO.
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2008.03.03 02:40:00 -
[3]
Why fit more tank than you need to survive a mission? Beyond fitting the needed amount of tank, you just want more gank so you can finish the mission faster. No level 3 or 4 mission will ever throw more than around 500dps at your drake. That means with decent skills you only need 2 SPR IIs, not 4.
I'd go:
H: 7x HML M: 3x LSE II, 3x specific hardeners (or you can even go 2x invulns and a shield recharger) L: 2x BCU II, 2x SPR II
For level 3 missions, if you have the 3 extenders and the rigs, you don't need even a single SPR and can go 4 BCUs if you want.
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Abel Hastur
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Posted - 2008.03.03 02:50:00 -
[4]
If you're going to be doing level 4 missions in a drake you're not going to have a choice but to sacrifice some tanking power for dmg, at least at low sp. Personally I'm only at 3 mil sp so I"m having a hard time killing the battleships in level 4's.
for now I content myself with warping in, killing everything but the battleships and coming back with afterburners and four BCU's to kill the battleships. Obviously I'm eventually going to run into some problems doing this but for now the dramatically higher then necessary tanking power of the drake is put to good use.
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Grendel Marqun
Caldari Ars ex Discordia
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Posted - 2008.03.03 02:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vyllana Why fit more tank than you need to survive a mission? Beyond fitting the needed amount of tank, you just want more gank so you can finish the mission faster. No level 3 or 4 mission will ever throw more than around 500dps at your drake. That means with decent skills you only need 2 SPR IIs, not 4.
I'd go:
H: 7x HML M: 3x LSE II, 3x specific hardeners (or you can even go 2x invulns and a shield recharger) L: 2x BCU II, 2x SPR II
For level 3 missions, if you have the 3 extenders and the rigs, you don't need even a single SPR and can go 4 BCUs if you want.
Damn straight. Though you only need 1 SPR in low for L4s, (presuming decent BC/shield skills) allowing 3 BCUs for gank. By the way, don't neglect the el cheapo 3% shield recharge/capacity implants. Y'know those 1.5 mil + BS? I can't imagine trying to kill those without the DPS from multiple BCUs. Sure it'd be doable, but my god it must take forever. More DPS = faster mission completion = more money.
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2008.03.03 03:31:00 -
[6]
So to tank 500 dps I would need: 80% resistance and 100 shield hp recharge 75% resistance and 125 shield hp recharge 70% resistance and 150 shield hp recharge 60% resistance and 200 shield hp recharge 50% resistance and 250 shield hp recharge 40% resistance and 300 shield hp recharge 0% resistance and 500 shield hp recharge
Now, mind you that peak shield hp recharge, when does that occur? If 500 dps is the most level 4 missions will deal, whats the most level 3 missions will deal?
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2008.03.03 05:00:00 -
[7]
Peak shield recharge rate = 2.5*(shield hp / recharge time) Peak shield recharge rate applies roughly in the range from 30-35% shield, when you have more than 35% shield or less than 30% shield, it'll be regenerating slower
If you use rat specific hardeners, you should be able to get typically around 80% resists to the damage types you are taking, meaning you need a peak regen rate of 100hp/sec. Add on a bit of extra margin on top of that for safety, and you're set.
As for level 3s, I don't know off the top of my head how much dps you'll be taking, but if you've slapped some extenders and purgers on your drake, you really don't need to worry.
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Durzel
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.03.03 15:28:00 -
[8]
Probably better off getting the obligatory 3 purger rigs. Sure they're expensive but it's the de facto setup for the Drake so you'll get the ISK back when you come to sell anyway.
A 3xCDFP Drake gives you the luxury of pretty much doing anything you like with the rest of the slots. I run with 3xLSEII (~16.5k HP with my skills), 2xInvulnII and 1xSPRII and I've never come across a mission that's taken me down lower than 60-65% shield. I've used the same ship alongside a friend in a BS in lvl4s too.
Flying a Drake with a big passive tank actually makes you quite complacent really. For funsies I aggro'd the 2 groups of BS & BCs in The Kidnappers Strike mission and although there were many pyrotechnics the trusty Drake endured!
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Osamma BenLaden
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Posted - 2008.03.03 16:12:00 -
[9]
A quick test if you are in the neighborhood is the "Contested Gallente Comet" Go to Servey site (second room) aggro left side Frigs for the test. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.03 17:57:00 -
[10]
I like to aim for a 650dps tank my self then fit damage mods. You only need 1000+ if you plan to aggro eveything at once in the hardest missions. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.03 19:26:00 -
[11]
Don't fit 3x LSE II, it's pointless.
I run this and it tanks all L4 missions without warp outs:
7x HML II 1x Whatever
2x LSE II 2x Invul. II 2x Shield Recharger II
2x BCU II 2x SPR II
3x Core Deffense Field Purger I
Occaisionally I'll switch the Invuls for rat specific hardeners, I tend to only run the Invuls against Drones, Mercs and Angels. If you want even more tank you can drop the two BCUs for a PDS II and another SPR II.
/makes fart noise
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Mykpilot
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Posted - 2008.03.03 20:13:00 -
[12]
In your mid slots, 3x LSE II and 1x SR II will yield a better HP regen, than 2x LSE II and 2x SR II
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.03 21:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mykpilot In your mid slots, 3x LSE II and 1x SR II will yield a better HP regen, than 2x LSE II and 2x SR II
Barely, and then it gimps the rest of your setup. In order to run 7x HML II and 3x LSE II you need AWU 5, in which case you don't have the CPU for a second BCU -or- you have AWU 4 and need to drop a BCU for a PDU anyway.
3x LSE II is just plain stupid.
/makes fart noise
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
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Posted - 2008.03.03 22:18:00 -
[14]
Beta SPRs have the same recharge rate and lower fittings. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? |
AnKahn
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2008.03.03 22:28:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Alowishus
Originally by: Mykpilot In your mid slots, 3x LSE II and 1x SR II will yield a better HP regen, than 2x LSE II and 2x SR II
Barely, and then it gimps the rest of your setup. In order to run 7x HML II and 3x LSE II you need AWU 5, in which case you don't have the CPU for a second BCU -or- you have AWU 4 and need to drop a BCU for a PDU anyway.
3x LSE II is just plain stupid.
Well, once in a while I get info on the forums that is quite useful. I will drop my 3rd LSE and see what this opens up for me in terms of BCUs. My fitting skills are not the best so this would help alot.
Thanks Al, the Sex Muffin Man
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2008.03.04 05:31:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Vyllana on 04/03/2008 05:32:10 I never had any fitting problems on my drake using 3 LSE IIs. The extra LSE does offer somewhat superior regen to a 2nd recharger, and also provides a significantly larger buffer in case something goes wrong. Also, for missioning, since with heavy missiles you don't need t2 ammo, there's not a real need to fit T2 HMLs. With the LPs you get running level 4s, you can very quickly afford a full rack of CN HMLs, which do superior dps (even if you have heavy missile spec 5) and have much lower fitting reqs. Another solution to fitting issues if you have low AWU is to fit a Regolith for the 3rd extender instead of a T2, it still provides more total regen than a 2nd recharger.
The only time I can see dropping down the number of extenders as really beneficial would be if you're trying to set up your drake with HAMs for some reason.
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:06:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Alowishus on 04/03/2008 18:07:33 I present to you two passive setups.
7x HML II (Scourge)
2x LSE II 2x Invul II 2x Shield Recharger II
3x SPR II 1x BCU II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 651 DPS Done: 240
-vs-
7x CN HML (Scourge)
3x LSE II 2x Invul II 1x Shield Recharger II
3x SPR II 1x BCU II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 536 DPS Done: 252
Now, in order to do an apples to apples comparison I chose to use 1x BCS and 3x SPR on each setup because with 3x LSE II you can't fit a second BCU regardless of whether you use CN HMLs or T2 HMLs. With Heavy Missile Spec IV, the CN HML/3x LSE II setup does 12 more DPS, but has an inferior tank. Even disregarding cost of the CN HMLs I still believe the advantage goes to the 2x LSE II setup.
Now I present to you the second comparisson.
7x HML II (Scourge)
2x LSE II 2x Invul II 2x Shield Recharger II
2x SPR II 2x BCU II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 495 DPS Done: 286
-vs-
7x CN HML (Scourge)
2x LSE II 1x 'Regolith' LSE 2x Invul II 1x Shield Recharger II
2x SPR II 2x BCU II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 396 DPS Done: 301
This time the CN HML setup does 15 more DPS. However, once again, the tank suffers dramatically. In my opinion the 15 more DPS is still not worth the inferior tank. Once again, not taking into account cost of the CN HMLs I still believe the advantage goes to the 2x LSE II setup.
In the end I still see no advantage to 3x LSE in L4 missions.
/makes fart noise
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Borasao
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:37:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Borasao on 04/03/2008 18:38:11
Quote: Now, in order to do an apples to apples comparison I chose to use 1x BCS and 3x SPR on each setup because with 3x LSE II you can't fit a second BCU regardless of whether you use
I run this: 7x Arbalest HML, small tractor 3x LSE2, 2x rat primary, 1x rat secondary 2x BCU2, 1x SPR2, 1xPDU2 3x CDFP no rigs/implants required
and this: 7x HML2 3x LSE2, 2x rat primary, 1x rat secondary 2x BCU2, 1x SPR2, 1x PDU2 3x CDFP w/ the cheap launcher reduced CPU requirements implant
Not having two BCU2s just runs L4s too slow for my tastes.
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Tashiell Gao
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:49:00 -
[19]
Over and over again: Set-Up This is what you should be aiming for, tanks all level 4s fine.
P.S. Althought it says it's lv5, but it's actually not as i can't be bothered to click eveything to lv5. only major skills i can remember. P.S. I have implants on it. 1 increase shield cap, 1 increase shield recharge, 1 increase rof, 1 decrease missile sig, 1 decrease launcher CPU needs
Tashiell Gao,
Minmatar in-side, RolePlayer. |
HellSpeed
Estrale Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:21:00 -
[20]
Edited by: HellSpeed on 04/03/2008 22:21:57 I have this.
[Drake, drake passive pve] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II Shield Recharger II
XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile XR-3200 Heavy Missile Bay, Scourge Heavy Missile Small Tractor Beam I
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
Replace BCSII with another SPRII if that's still not enough tank
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:47:00 -
[21]
Both of the above are crap.
It amazes me how many people don't know how to set up ships.
/makes fart noise
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HellSpeed
Gallente Estrale Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:57:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alowishus Both of the above are crap.
It amazes me how many people don't know how to set up ships.
Your invuls aren't what I would call passive?
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:59:00 -
[23]
The recharge is passive...
/makes fart noise
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Borasao
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Posted - 2008.03.04 23:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Borasao on 04/03/2008 23:05:33 If you switch out a BCS2 to add another SPR2 in my HML2 setup above, put two Invuln2s on it, EFT claims a 655 tank. I don't need it that high, though, for L4s and the Drake is horribly slow at doing L4s anyway, it needs all the help it can get. I tank fine with the setup above (only two places where it's an issue... if I screw up and agro all of the Serpentis room of L4WC and in the, now not an issue, L4AE Bonus Room). Everything else, one SPR2 is plenty. With 3x SPR2 and 1x BCS2 in lows, EFT reports a 751 tank. But that's just underkill, IMO (underkill meaning too much tank, not enough gank so killing is slow). Using the HML2 setup above as is with T1 Scourges, EFT reports a 298 offense and 498 tank.
Still, those numbers are suspect, because doing L4s, I'll have 2x rat primary and 1x rat secondary hardeners on, making the resists vs. those rats even higher. I duplicated the 2x Invuln2s (and the extra 1x Thermal) just to try to make it comparable.
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 23:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 04/03/2008 23:05:33 If you switch out a BCS2 to add another SPR2 in my HML2 setup above, put two Invuln2s on it, EFT claims a 655 tank. I don't need it that high, though, for L4s and the Drake is horribly slow at doing L4s anyway, it needs all the help it can get. I tank fine with the setup above (only two places where it's an issue... if I screw up and agro all of the Serpentis room of L4WC and in the, now not an issue, L4AE Bonus Room). Everything else, one SPR2 is plenty. With 3x SPR2 and 1x BCS2 in lows, EFT reports a 751 tank. But that's just underkill, IMO (underkill meaning too much tank, not enough gank so killing is slow). Using the HML2 setup above as is with T1 Scourges, EFT reports a 298 offense and 498 tank.
Still, those numbers are suspect, because doing L4s, I'll have 2x rat primary and 1x rat secondary hardeners on, making the resists vs. those rats even higher. I duplicated the 2x Invuln2s (and the extra 1x Thermal) just to try to make it comparable.
Ok, first of all, I have all my fitting skills maxed, except AWU 4, rather than 5, and even with a 5% Launcher CPU implant I can't get your setup to fit. Unless you are running T1 hardeners. But for the sake of comparison I ran it through EFT anyway.
I used the Guirista Damage Type of 0/14/86/0.
My setup for comparative purposes:
2x SPR II 2x BCU II
2x LSE II 2x Kinetic Hardener II 1x Thermal Hardener II 1x Shield Recharger II
7x HML II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 888 DPS Dealt: 286
-vs-
Your setup (which doesn't fit, although with a Beta SPR it does and offers identical stats):
1x PDU II 1x SPR II 2x BCU II
3x LSE II 2x Kinetic Hardener II 1x Thermal Hardener II
7x HML II
3x CDFP I
DPS Tanked: 638 DPS Dealt: 286
DPS is the same but my tank is still superior. So much so that I can drop both SPR II for a single Beta SPR, drop the Shield Recharger II for a M51 and pick up a third BCU II and STILL have a better tank than you (652 DPS tanked). It still needs the 5% Launcher CPU implant though.
I hope I've made it extremely clear by now that if you run 2x LSE instead of 3x, you can almost always come up with a superior setup (still waiting for someone to stump me).
/makes fart noise
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Borasao
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Posted - 2008.03.04 23:57:00 -
[26]
Ah, I have these implants: Slot 6: Zainou 'Gypsy' KMB-50 Slot 9: Zainou 'Gnome' KYA1000
I ran your setup through EFT with my skills (actually, my alt's, the one that flies the Drake) and I get (using the Gurista profile you used): Defense: 1017 Offense: 298
My setup as you listed: Defense: 938 (not sure how I get this and you get 638) Offense: 298
So, yup. You have the better setup. I'm gonna log in and pick up some SR2s and I have enough CPU left over for a tractor. Thanks for showing it.
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Alowishus
mUfFiN fAcToRy Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.05 00:05:00 -
[27]
I have Shield Op and Management both at 5. Unless you have some other implants then I dunno what's up, maybe you have BC 5, I'm working on that now. But I swear EFT is broken sometimes, I notice differences between the same setup at work and at home even though I refresh each char each day.
I will say you're the only one who had any good ideas with 3x LSE II, everyone else was disappointing.
This thread has challenged me to come up with a better setups for myself. If you know the rats ahead of time (no reason you shouldn't) you can easily optimize for each mission. Though it may be unneeded. Most people seem to get by even if their setups aren't well thought out or optimal. The Drake is forgiving, it seems.
/makes fart noise
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Borasao
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Posted - 2008.03.05 00:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Borasao on 05/03/2008 00:14:47 Yeah, I have Shield Op and Management at 5 as well (4.2m sp in Engineering). Nothing that would make up a 50% difference (600 to 900), though. Also BC5.
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Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.03.05 01:41:00 -
[29]
Originally by: "Thread Title How much tank should a PvE mission passive Drake tank?
How much gank could a passive drake tank if a passive drake could tank gank? -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Kathira
Gallente Denial of Service Freelancer Coalition
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Posted - 2008.03.05 07:17:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kathira on 05/03/2008 07:20:55 The problem with the drake is the CPU.
When youre running normal ( named T1 ) launchers and a big tank you're CPU is enough for all.
But when you start to minimize you're tank for gank CPU is a part of a big problem.
BCU II 40 CPU instead around 17 for SPR II CN Launcher around 10 CPU per launcher more than Arbalest
So the 3 LSE II are no longer possible cause of CPU.
I am trying a 3 BCU fitting with some ( not all ) CN launchern these days and its rather strange to fit. MissionDrake] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Shield Power Relay II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Invulnerability Field II M51 Iterative Shield Regenerator Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile 'Arbalest' Heavy Missile Launcher,Scourge Heavy Missile
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I Drones_Active=Hobgoblin II,5
So with my skills I have 3 CPU left, 312 missile dps ( 99 drones ) and the tank against gueristas is around 590.
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