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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 15:56:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 15:59:17
what I said was that Siddy posted things which are not true
I also think Amarr should get/use stuff with high powergrid usage and caldari should get/use stuff with high cpu usage.
what I don't like is if someone does not know what he is posting or posts wrong information on purpose. (and this is what siddy does)
Also I think the grid usage of the large repairer is too high. it should be higher than the grid usage of a SB, yes, but not as high as it is.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:50:00 -
[92]
 Quote:
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 15:11:07
well, XL SB is not comparable to ONE L repairer
and TWO L repairers take 1900 grid and 100 CPU
Siddy, please think before you post (or don't post at all), your posts aren't contributing at all.
two large repaires take 12% grid for a Megathron and 15% cpu ( with engineering and electronics 5)
1 XL and 1 amplifier take 35% of a Ravens CPU and 5% of it's grid. ( with engineering and electronics 5)
Exactly who has the problem again?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 19:54:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Gariuys on 09/04/2004 20:05:11
Edited by: Gariuys on 09/04/2004 19:58:36
Quote:
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 15:59:17
what I said was that Siddy posted things which are not true
I also think Amarr should get/use stuff with high powergrid usage and caldari should get/use stuff with high cpu usage.
what I don't like is if someone does not know what he is posting or posts wrong information on purpose. (and this is what siddy does)
Also I think the grid usage of the large repairer is too high. it should be higher than the grid usage of a SB, yes, but not as high as it is.
And what I don't like is people *****ing about stuff they've never actually tried.
Edit: Wait a sec, you did try it, you're just another clueless spoiled whining Amarrian that couldn't kit a BS half decently if the exact modules they'd need where handed to them.
Edit2: Just in cause Omegatron reads this, the above should be read as; You kind sir are not very good at kitting out a BS, and are seeing problems where there are non. This is in all likelyhood caused by a lack of understanding of the intimate details of kitting out a BS with anything but a lot of relays, and the inability to adapt to changes.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:10:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 20:19:22
Quote:
And what I don't like is people *****ing about stuff they've never actually tried.
Edit: Wait a sec, you did try it, you're just another clueless spoiled whining Amarrian that couldn't kit a BS half decently if the exact modules they'd need where handed to them.
Edit2: Just in cause Omegatron reads this, the above should be read as; You kind sir are not very good at kitting out a BS, and are seeing problems where there are non. This is in all likelyhood caused by a lack of understanding of the intimate details of kitting out a BS with anything but a lot of relays, and the inability to adapt to changes.
I of course did try out the stuff, talked with many other people too and spent hours on the issue.
I recommend you to try yourself cause you seem rather clueless to me, otherwise you would not have to post such crap. If I did not know how to make setups and if I had not spent hours trying myself and talking to others listening to their opinions and ideas I would not have started that thread.
By the way, I just found another advantage shield tanks have: RECHARGE. It's not a big issue but as shield tanks will install a lot of diags it will have a noticeable effect. Just build yourself a shield tanked raven, get her shield shot down and don't boost them but watch as they recharge. Its not sufficiently fast to rely on recharge in a battle, that's for sure but its too much to ignore it, it has a noticeable effect and armor tanking lacks this.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:20:00 -
[95]
Which huge drawbacks are that? Cause I run a armour tank and I can't see them.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:23:00 -
[96]
On the post before:
you have got a point there, can't say that shield tanks have it so much harder though as you will see that apocs and megathrons run into huge problems when trying to armor tank, even if the numbers here don't display this. That's the thing I mean, you click info for megathron or go to some webpage, see "megathron has 550 CPU", multiply it by 1.25 to get it up to match electronics 5 and then calculate how much 2 large repairers need. (and do the same with the grid). Although such numbers may look interesting, things work very different when you take into account the other factors as the other modules you (need to) fit.
The only way of really finding out how well things work is logging on to chaos and trying. That is what I do.
And the other issues I displayed are really huge drawbacks an armor tank has so that is only fair. The thing I mainly got annoyed about was the crap siddy said which was simply not true. Thank you for doing the work of giving exact numbers (although I noticed you rounded down from 12.5 to 12 on the mega's side :-) )
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:25:00 -
[97]
Quote:
Which huge drawbacks are that? Cause I run a armour tank and I can't see them.
Those:
Quote:
- Lack of XLarge Repairer
- Needs more slots
- Repairers take ~13 seconds of being active until they have an effect (in contrast to shield boosters which immediately boost)
- Hardly anything left after armor. When a shieldtank fails he has armor to survive while warping out (unless he is scrambled of course), an armortank has nothing left (except structure but thats hardly anything and a shieldtank of course has that too)
- Medslot rechargers take more CPU than the CPRs (can be okay but together with the reasons mentioned above, it makes armor tanking even more difficult)
- Shields have some recharge (not much but still a noticeable difference
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:38:00 -
[98]
Quote:
Edited by: Hellek on 06/04/2004 22:23:16
I spent a lot of time today attempting to armor tank an apoc, exchanging experience with other players, etc. and it turned out that it seems to be impossible to make a good armor tank that can compete with other, shield-based loadouts.
All testing was done on Chaos.
Major problems I had:
1.) Large Armor repairers need 950 grid, which really is a lot (many setups run out of grid but have excess CPU).
The grid usage has been proved to be not as bad as you make it out to be, shield tanking is much more requirement intensive then armour tanking.
Quote:
2.) Cap problems as Apoc only has 4 medslot but medslot rechargers don't give cap size bonus (like diags do) and only give the same bonus as CPRs (20%)
Cap Problems were really bad, I found it impossible to use Lasers on a tanked Apoc, the armor repairers alone suck cap dry very, very fast and as the other lowslots are needed for stuff like reactors because of the grid problems there is no space for enough CPRs (which do not hurt on a armor tank as the -10% shield boost thing does not affect them)
Armour tanking takes less cap then shield tanking, if you replace the standard 4 med slot tanking setup XL, amp, 2hard with 7 relays ( was it 7? guess work here but probably right ) with the same thing in lows 2x large repairer 2x hard end 3x relay with 4x cap recharger ( which are available as better loot items and tech2 unlike relays ) you'll end up with almost the same cap recharge and tanking that takes a bit less cap then before which balances out quite nicely
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:42:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Gariuys on 09/04/2004 20:44:03
A those
-No need for a Xlarge repairer.
-Bull****
-Ehm then activate your armour repairers before you start taking armour damage after that, it doesn't matter now does it.
-so what? then warp out before all your armour is gone or something.
-yeah relays should take more cpu ( and didn't you say you had a lot of CPU left, which makes this point so moot it ain't even funny. )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:46:00 -
[100]
Quote:
On the post before:
you have got a point there, can't say that shield tanks have it so much harder though as you will see that apocs and megathrons run into huge problems when trying to armor tank, even if the numbers here don't display this. That's the thing I mean, you click info for megathron or go to some webpage, see "megathron has 550 CPU", multiply it by 1.25 to get it up to match electronics 5 and then calculate how much 2 large repairers need. (and do the same with the grid). Although such numbers may look interesting, things work very different when you take into account the other factors as the other modules you (need to) fit.
The only way of really finding out how well things work is logging on to chaos and trying. That is what I do.
And the other issues I displayed are really huge drawbacks an armor tank has so that is only fair. The thing I mainly got annoyed about was the crap siddy said which was simply not true. Thank you for doing the work of giving exact numbers (although I noticed you rounded down from 12.5 to 12 on the mega's side :-) )
I don't try stuff on chaos, I fly it on TQ. My megathron has been armour tanked for well ages. Never had the med-slots to even think about shield tanking.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 21:04:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Hellek on 09/04/2004 21:09:13
You don't even read what I write.
An armor tank requires 3 hardeners as it has 3 low resistances. Maybe its not the same on mega but on Apoc with only 2 hardeners, one resistance would be at only 35% which is not the case on shield tanks with 2 hardeners.
Quote:
No need for a Xlarge repairer.
Can you explain why please?
Quote:
Ehm then activate your armour repairers before you start taking armour damage after that, it doesn't matter now does it.
That's 1-3 volleys delay, that IS a lot, its not as easy as you pretend it was.
Quote:
so what? then warp out before all your armour is gone or something.
As above, it's not that easy. The "or something" pretty much shows you have no clue.
Quote:
I don't try stuff on chaos, I fly it on TQ.
Again proves you have no idea about what you are talking. TQ is good for playing but 1.) the CPR nerf isn't in effect there yet, 2.) you can't just fit a loadout and test it in a fight on TQ (or do you have a reserve of 20 expendable other megathrons in your hangar)
And if you haven't noticed yet: WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE MEGATHRON IN THIS THREAD, ITS CALLED "Armor tanking an Apoc"!!!
For reasons which I definately won't post for the 10th time in this thread, Apocs are already pretty screwed and it will only get worse with the CPR nerf.
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.04.09 21:43:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Shirei on 09/04/2004 21:45:00
Quote:
An armor tank requires 3 hardeners as it has 3 low resistances. Maybe its not the same on mega but on Apoc with only 2 hardeners, one resistance would be at only 35% which is not the case on shield tanks with 2 hardeners.
An Apoc with 2 shield hardeners has shield resistances of:
50/60/40/59.5 - average 52.4
An Apoc with 2 armor hardeners has armor resistances of:
60/59.5/62.5/35 - average 54.3
So, yes, one resistance is lower (even if 35% is not very much lower than 40%) than if you were shield tanking, but the other 3 are higher, which certainly makes up for it because most damage you get is a mix of different damage types. If you want to use 3 armor hardeners, at least be fair and compare it to a shield tanking setup that uses 3 shield hardeners... oops, I forgot that's impossible in an Apoc (with an Amp), so actually armor tanking with 3 hardeners gives you much more tanking ability than is even theoretically possible with shield tanking on an Apoc.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.09 21:58:00 -
[103]
Again somebody who only thrusts numbers but posts stuff far from reality.
Any idea how much it sucks to have a 35% resistance against a type of damage that many other setups deal? It makes a big difference.
So people, please try your stuff out before you post it!!!
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.04.09 23:06:00 -
[104]
why all the hussle abaut apoch anyway? it still popular ship among miner careberas
lets keep it like that and go home play whit tempest's and ravens and megas and anything else exept amarr ships   
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:08:00 -
[105]
Siddy, will ya cut it out or I come over 'n kick your ass
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Squirrel
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:26:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Squirrel on 10/04/2004 00:28:49
/me has just wasted about an hour reading this dumb thread...
anyways for armor tanking an apoc u sacrifice your long range weapons.. its a fact... tachs for dual heavy beams... you chose to do that.. and its balanced that way...if you want tachs u have to shield tank..
and to be perfectly honest..for those people who cry that apoc is so weak boo hoo hoo...ravens and tempests rapzor me all the time if i use lasers... k nubbies... maybe try not using reactor controls to fit that extra tach mebe? maybe just put 4 on.. a heavy beam and maybe 2 launchers and stack yourself with damage mods and a few cap mods and u can run your large cl-5 to kingdom come with its lovely 2 hardeners and a warp disruptor..btw.. 4 tachs with 4 dmg mods does alot more dmg than 5 tachs with 2 dmg mods  and btw.. it rips through the standard tanked raven setup quite quickly.. and it pwnz tempests utterly with about double the dmg over time...so cheers nubbies.. keep on whinning.. maybe try and get your own loadouts that *work* and possible get some skills? ya know having large laser higher than level 1 is a great start..
_______________________________________________
Carfax > guys, please dont pvp here, it messes up the avoid pd kill zones autopilot option |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.04.10 01:15:00 -
[107]
What Squirrel said, lucky I only read the first and large page.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.04.10 10:28:00 -
[108]
Quote:
Siddy, will ya cut it out or I come over 'n kick your ass
frankly - i got apoch to
and its dedicated just for mining
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.04.10 10:31:00 -
[109]
Quote:
Edited by: Squirrel on 10/04/2004 00:28:49
/me has just wasted about an hour reading this dumb thread...
anyways for armor tanking an apoc u sacrifice your long range weapons.. its a fact... tachs for dual heavy beams... you chose to do that.. and its balanced that way...if you want tachs u have to shield tank..
and to be perfectly honest..for those people who cry that apoc is so weak boo hoo hoo...ravens and tempests rapzor me all the time if i use lasers... k nubbies... maybe try not using reactor controls to fit that extra tach mebe? maybe just put 4 on.. a heavy beam and maybe 2 launchers and stack yourself with damage mods and a few cap mods and u can run your large cl-5 to kingdom come with its lovely 2 hardeners and a warp disruptor..btw.. 4 tachs with 4 dmg mods does alot more dmg than 5 tachs with 2 dmg mods and btw.. it rips through the standard tanked raven setup quite quickly.. and it pwnz tempests utterly with about double the dmg over time...so cheers nubbies.. keep on whinning.. maybe try and get your own loadouts that *work* and possible get some skills? ya know having large laser higher than level 1 is a great start..
errr - maybe, but we were talkking abaut armor tankked apoch
not shield tankked one
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JoCool
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Posted - 2004.04.10 10:51:00 -
[110]
Bah, why are Amarr supposed to either tank or deal damage and not both at the same time?!
The other races can do this! Why not Amarr? 
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.04.10 10:53:00 -
[111]
Quote:
Bah, why are Amarr supposed to either tank or deal damage and not both at the same time?!
The other races can do this! Why not Amarr?
because 5 months ago amarr ships were popular ships in game due to tachs
then devs desidet to nerf em... for good
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:09:00 -
[112]
Hellek, where did u get teh 35% resistance from? 50% hardeners...
Megathron --> can't tank and deal damage at the same time.
Tempest --> can't do lots of damage and tank well at the same time.
Raven ---> only ship that can tank and do damage, weapons are expensive to upkeep, and bad at long range.
Apoc ---> can't tank and deal lots of damage at the same time.
Ok?
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:22:00 -
[113]
Edited by: Hellek on 10/04/2004 11:24:31
Negotiator: Base Resistance. Just check the Apoc's base armor resistances and you will know what I was talking about.
Squirrel: How would a shield-tanked Apoc look after the CPR nerf? Can you please explain that? Apoc does only have 4 medslots, so even if you make a minimal shield tanking with only SB + EM hardener + thermal hardener you only have one single slot left for Cap recharge. And if you then use long range weapons (as you said) in the highslots, you won't be able to get enough recharge without using lots of CPRs which will ruin your SB. So in short: Shield tanking a longrange apoc after the CPR nerf? Impossible ...
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Shirei
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:23:00 -
[114]
Quote:
Bah, why are Amarr supposed to either tank or deal damage and not both at the same time?!
The other races can do this! Why not Amarr?
The only ship I know of that can tank very well (i.e. XL booster running continuously) and have essentially full damage output at the same time is the raven. And that has problems at long range with missiles as evidenced in 100 other threads.
Please show me a long-range Megathron or Tempest setup that can run either a XL shield booster or 2 armor repairers continuously without sacrificing some damage output (after the cap relay nerf).
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:43:00 -
[115]
Shirei: I have no problem with sacrificing some damage but when you have to sacrifice almost all damage I have a problem with it.
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Rootz
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Posted - 2004.04.10 12:12:00 -
[116]
If you think other BS's have better options available to them either park the apoc or sell it and get one of the others. Every ship has its problems. We just tend to work round these and get on with it. Wouldn't it be great if we could shield tank, armour tank and do mega amounts of damage but we can,t and that would be really boring. Maybe you should think about working with others as a team and each using your relative strengths together. At the end of the day you have to optimize your ship with what you have available. There will always be an occaision where someone else shows up and is equiped to overcome your set-up and you'll die but thats just part of the game. If this is a problem for you maybe you should try something else, I think the teletubbies have a nice friendly game out there.
Try to remember, its only a game, but best played as part of a team. Individuals cannot rule the world!!!!
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.10 12:22:00 -
[117]
Edited by: Hellek on 10/04/2004 12:26:31
I have a Tempest for that reason, and in PvP I am always in a team.
Still I'd like the Apoc not to become useless (except for mining)
I don't want the Apoc to be any better than other Tier2 BS but I DO want the Apoc to be as good as them.
And yep, sure its a game, and arguing on the forum is a game, its all a game and I enjoy it. And even if CCP made the Apoc be a cruiser I wouldn't feel bad, I would just play another game
Still there is nothing wrong with arguing about the pros and cons of the different ships on the forums, and nothing wrong with pointing out unfairnesses which make your favourite ship worse than the other ships.
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Rootz
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Posted - 2004.04.10 12:50:00 -
[118]
Quote:
Edited by: Hellek on 10/04/2004 12:26:31
Still there is nothing wrong with arguing about the pros and cons of the different ships on the forums, and nothing wrong with pointing out unfairnesses which make your favourite ship worse than the other ships.
It seems the nail has finally been hit on its head. As you point out its your favourite ship. I'm sure everyone would like their favourite to do the things they really want it to but thats just not possible.
I never understood the interest in the "mona lisa". To me she just looks like one miserable woman. I would like them to paint a smile on her face but that won't happen. Guess i'll just have to live with her looking like she does or move back to page 3
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.10 13:07:00 -
[119]
I don't want my favourite ship to become useless, that's all. Sure I'd like it to be the best ship in game and own all etc (everybody wants that), but that's not what I am asking for. As much as that would be unfair, it is unfair to make it too weak to compete with the other ships.
So all what I am demanding is that ships should be balanced. Apoc will be to weak after the nerf and should get a boost. Not to make it stronger than a Raven or a Megathron or a Tempest, only enough to make it able to compete with them.
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Rootz
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Posted - 2004.04.10 13:31:00 -
[120]
Trawling through posts, others seem to think it can hold its own agains all the other ships. Looks like the problem is more down to your skills or ridgidity in your set ups. Maybe you need to look at a greater range of options in your set up to achieve a happy medium.
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