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TWD
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Posted - 2004.04.07 09:56:00 -
[31]
lol, people use an EM hardener because shields have the least resistance to EM.
EMP L does EM damage, missile users use EM damage/will switch to it.
so no way people will drop their EM hardener when having shield defence,
even if lasers were the crappiest guns in the game. |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.07 14:13:00 -
[32]
 Quote:
lol, people use an EM hardener because shields have the least resistance to EM.
EMP L does EM damage, missile users use EM damage/will switch to it.
so no way people will drop their EM hardener when having shield defence,
even if lasers were the crappiest guns in the game.
Don't spoil the fun now. EM is very very nice against armour tanks those shields are gone really fast and EM won't be hardend against on the armour side, giving quite respectable damage there as well( slightly less then explosive, bit more then kinetic )
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Devestator
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Posted - 2004.04.07 14:34:00 -
[33]
Quote:
When armor tanking an apoc, your best bet after the patch is:
highslots:
as much dual heavy beams/pulses as possible (but wont be good in long range stuff, still useful in most PvP situations, using different types of crystals depending on range)
medslots:
4x tech2 cap rechargers (or 3 and 1 warp disruptor)
lowslots:
Thermal, explosive, kinetic 50% armor hardeners,
2x (named) large armor repairers,
2x cap relays
This is the best possible loadout for a full Armor Tank setup on Choas for an apoc.
With energy System ops 5 this gives the apoc a 181 recharge rate and with Energy Management 4 and Amarr BS 4 a capacitor of 6912.
In the high slots i used:
3 tachyons
1 mega beam
2 heavy launchers
2 Heavy modulated beams
I had to shut down the megabeam to maintain the two large armor repairs every once in a while (Cap settled around 35-40%). I tested against another apoc and ofcourse it was a draw. Don't know if it could hold up against a Blasterthron but probably not.
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Lucre
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Posted - 2004.04.07 15:21:00 -
[34]
Quote:
guns used. Hell if you are having trouble with CPU usage why not go for a mixture of 425's and megabeams this will give a nice balance of grid, cpu AND dmg types. (this has been an idea I have been playing around with for sometime.)
Yep. Exactly what I do. Mixture of 425s, Megabeams and Dual heavy beams. As you say, nice mix of grid, cpu and damage types.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:44:00 -
[35]
Quoting TWD: Quote:
When armor tanking an apoc, your best bet after the patch is:
highslots:
as much dual heavy beams/pulses as possible (but wont be good in long range stuff, still useful in most PvP situations, using different types of crystals depending on range)
medslots:
4x tech2 cap rechargers (or 3 and 1 warp disruptor)
lowslots:
Thermal, explosive, kinetic 50% armor hardeners,
2x (named) large armor repairers,
2x cap relays
That is pretty much the same as what I found, but the big problem as you see is that you kinda miss one lowslot. You really need those 3 hardeners, you absolutely need the 2 repairers and you need the 2 CPRs. See, all 7 lowslots used and no space for a heatsink which is a really big problem.
Solutions would be either making the Cap Recharger II recharge even more (25%), adding an 8th lowslot, or redoing the armor resistances so that you are fine with 2 hardeners (as its the case with shield tanks).
Armor tanking was very unpopular for a long time and for a good reason. now the CPR nerf forces us to look for armor tank loadouts and it turns out that there are some big design flaws/unfair drawbacks compared to shield tanking.
CCP, please ensure that the Apoc does not become totally useless before putting the CPR nerf in effect on TQ. It would be unfair to Apoc owners to make their ship only usable for mining and nothing else
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:59:00 -
[36]
TomB has said mid-slot cap rechargers will be "looked at".
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.07 21:12:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Hellek on 07/04/2004 21:14:57
Great, that's already something. I hope armor tanking in general is being looked at.
I noticed that on Chaos, the cap recharger already has 20% (compared to 15 as on TQ), all things I posted took that into account already, so if that difference means that looking at it is done, then I hope they think about it again as I don't think that 20% is enough (I don't know how increasing it further would influence other ships, maybe enabling them to make too powerful loadouts, in that case another solution would be required)
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.07 21:25:00 -
[38]
Re:
Quote:
CCP, please ensure that the Apoc does not become totally useless before putting the CPR nerf in effect on TQ. It would be unfair to Apoc owners to make their ship only usable for mining and nothing else
Caldari pilots have it much worse, believe me.
Caldari battleships are only good at one thing - PvP (although, at a push, Ravens make decent NPC hunters).
Count yourself lucky that, in one ship, you have the advantage of excelling in npc hunting AND mining.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.07 21:49:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Hellek on 07/04/2004 21:51:00
I do, and that's why I am spending hours on trying to find a decent setup for after the CPR nerf, which I can still use for fighting NPCs. The problem, as me and many others have pointed out, is that this will be impossible after that nerf. The Apoc will become only useful for mining and that should not happen. If CCP does not do anything to make the Apoc useful for fighting after the CPR nerf, they should give it at least a 10% boost to mining yield per level instead of the -5% to cap usage on energy weapons. Who needs that on a mining-only ship.
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Pyrotesea
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:28:00 -
[40]
1st I hate to admit it but josh is right here.
Quote:
Have you ever given thought to the fact that the cap relay change is going to mean more people armour-tank and, therefore, aren't likely to use em/heat tac. shield hardeners?
2nd I'd like to have a shameless plug of my items for sell here
But to keep with this topic we have several armor tank setups that work rather efficiently, and can do dmg as well. Just put some imagination into it and I am sure you all can figure it out. think outside the box.
I do think people demanding tank setups and being able to do _ber amount of dmg is a little far fetched.
-----------------------------------------------
What doesn't kill you makes you injured.
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Majin Buu
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:56:00 -
[41]
i have just done a a 1v1 against a blasterthron in my apoc armor tanked and only just lost. The only reason why i lost is we both warped in at 30km, therefore he was able to lock me and instantly start pounding away. If he had been any further away he would of lost. I also had slightly modified my pvp setup where i had replaced my 8th 425 with a medium blaster so i would be able to hit frigs etc.
With a hybrid setup( 7-8 425's) it is very easy to armor tank an apoc, you can even armor tank it so it will take alot more damage than your normal shield setup of em/them hardener.
I also defeated a raven just be i lost the 1v1 vs blasterthron with 40% cap left. The raven was fully kitted out with the best named stuff u can get. That just shows the imbalance between lasers and 425's when fitted to an apoc
BoB KillBoard |
Majin Buu
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Posted - 2004.04.07 23:08:00 -
[42]
btw i was using named armor repairers, not armor repairers II. Armor repairer II's would would of made the lvl VERY close.
BoB KillBoard |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 00:12:00 -
[43]
would be interesting to try that loadout against a ship that uses 425 itself and has a bonus for them.
also I do think that amarr ships should be able to use energy weapons as well but that does not work well with armor tanking.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 00:43:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Hellek on 08/04/2004 00:46:12
erm I just tried it, 8x 425 requires 3 reactors and one cpu on a char with decent (but not exceptionally good) skills. but even with best skills it would still take too many lowslots for being able to do decent armor tanking and especially make it absolutely impossible to fit any damage mods. even with only 7 almost everybody (if not everybody) will need 1 CPU and 2 reactors.
could you please give a more detailed description?
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Majin Buu
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Posted - 2004.04.08 00:46:00 -
[45]
engineering 5 and 1x10% reactor control with co-pro II lets u fit 8 425's
BoB KillBoard |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 00:54:00 -
[46]
then I have another apoc than you cause I have engineering 5, electronics 5 and all that and I need 3 10% reactors and 1 CPU II which is a whole 4 modules.
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KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2004.04.08 02:28:00 -
[47]
Edited by: KamiCrazy on 08/04/2004 02:34:17
Edited by: KamiCrazy on 08/04/2004 02:32:09
Majin buu got imperial apoc? EDIT2: Not even imperial apoc can do it.
EDIT:
Hellek is right not possible on a standard apoc to fit 8 425's with out 2 RCU
15000 base + 3750 from engineering 5 + 1875 from 1 RCU = 20625
8x 2750 = 22000
Hence ye short by 1 RCU
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.04.08 02:36:00 -
[48]
Hellek, what about weapons upgrades?
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 10:56:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Hellek on 08/04/2004 10:58:55
Its at level4.
Also I found a few more big drawbacks of armor tanking which I think I should tell:
- It takes more slots than shield tanking. A shield tank needs 3-4 slots (SB + EM Hardener + Thermal Hardener and sometimes + Amplifier), an armor tank absolutely needs 2 repairers and 3 hardeners as explosive AND kinetic AND thermal resistances are bad, which is 5 slots. That's not fair if you ask me.
- For armor tanked Apocs its a must to have 4 Cap Recharger IIs in its medslots which leaves no space for anything else like a much needes Sensor Booster or ECCM module.
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Re'ah
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:03:00 -
[50]
Ships often have more low slots, at least those who are supposed to armor tank.
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:43:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Hellek on 08/04/2004 11:46:47
No, you can't say lowslots are worth less than medslots, that's simply not true.
Example:
Raven 6 medslots, 5 lowslots => sum of 11 slots
Apoc 4 medslots, 7 lowslots => sum of 11 slots
A lowslot is as much worth as a medslot and armor tanking should not need more slots than shield tanking as this is simply not fair and gives shield tanks an unfair advantage.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.04.08 11:48:00 -
[52]
low slots are pretty damn useful, one tech2 backup array can nullify 5 midslots on a scorpion.
2 warp core stablizers make you rather hard to pin down, ect.
low slots useless? hardly.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:14:00 -
[53]
If you want to tank an apoc megabeams/tachs are no good you got to use either megapulse/dualies or for long range 425s. I find apocs equal to if not better then megas with rails, the extra grind on the apoc means you can fit an additional rail which cancels with the megas dmg bonus, your left with + tracking vs + cap size and cap size normally wins out.
Mostly harmless |
Majin Buu
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:53:00 -
[54]
in my setup i did mention that i had replaced the 8th 425 with a medium gun, therefor freeing up a low slot for more armor tanking
BoB KillBoard |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:04:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Hellek on 08/04/2004 16:06:51
Still should not be the case that Apocs have to use 425s and can't use lasers.
Still a problem that a large armor repairer needs so much grid
Still unfair that armor tanking requires 5 slots while shield tanking only requires 3-4
Still bad that Apoc with lasers needs so much cap that it can't fit anything except Cap Recharger IIs in the medslots
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:15:00 -
[56]
It's unfair that I can't fit 6 neutrons + 2 siege launchers, 1 mwd, 1 webber, 1 warp-jammer, 1 sensor booster, 3 armour hardeners, 2 armour repairers, and 2 dmg mods on my mega!!!!!!1111
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 16:19:00 -
[57]
I don't demand the ability to fit an uber-setup, I only want to be able to make a setup that can compete with other ship types.
At the moment this is impossible due to the reasons named above. Of course fixing all of them might make the Apoc too powerful but at least some need to be changed.
Otherwise, as I said before, Apoc will become a mining only ship.
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.04.08 17:05:00 -
[58]
it can compete with other setups...u would win against most other tempests btw.....
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2004.04.08 18:52:00 -
[59]
/me fails to see the difference between Apoc with XL + amp + 2 wards or APoc with 2 L + 3 wards..
520 / 5 secs
OR
1200 / 14.25 secs
Do the maths.
/Elve
New Video out! Watch me!
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Hellek
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Posted - 2004.04.08 19:04:00 -
[60]
The difference is:
the SB setup uses 4 slots, the other setup 5 slots, and probably a bit more grid (not sure about that though)
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