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Barliman Butterbur
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Posted - 2008.03.04 14:52:00 -
[1]
Guys - looking for some general advice about the Amarr HACs.
I got my skills up to be able to fly one about 2 weeks ago and promptly brought meself a Zealot. Not been in the game much lately due to work commitments but the time I've had I've spent trying to get a good set-up for the Zealot - and I canĘt find one that works for the life of me. I have checked the ship set-up index but that seems a bit out dated althogh there are some good ideas in it.
I have 4 tech 2 pulses on it and thatĘs about all I seem to keep on as I continue to put stuff on and take it off, so my question is - would the Sacrilege be a better investment?
Now, I now that the Zealot is going to be getting an extra turret sometime soon, but will that make a difference?
I do have some missile skills as I used to play with a Phantasm, but what I originally was looking for was a ship to get in close and dirty - hence the Zealot and the pulses.
Any thoughts would be welcome.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2008.03.04 14:55:00 -
[2]
There's nothing closer and dirtier than the Sacrilege.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Barliman Butterbur
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Posted - 2008.03.04 15:43:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing closer and dirtier than the Sacrilege.
Hmm, ok, after re-looking at the Sacrilege I may have misunderstood its bonuses (ie, ignored the "assault" part).
Thnx for that Rodj - gonna look into the Sacrilege a bit more and see if it's more to my liking |
Felix Dzerzhinsky
legion of qui Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:00:00 -
[4]
Both are very strong ships.
I expect this is for PvP - in which case I would recommend you look at nano setups for both. . . ----
GO BLUE!! |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:10:00 -
[5]
The two actually fill their niches quite nicely.
Zealot as 15-30km orbiting damage dealer - even more so when the fifth turret comes along, it is going to be murder on light support. Sacrilege has everything below 15km covered with the close range tanking ability and similar damage potential - calling it a brawler is very apt I think.
Note that the Sacrilege bonus, while limited to Heavy Assaults, applies to all missile types making it superior to the Cerberus with non-kinetic ammunition. Quite a little gem in the Emperors arsenal - nano, damage, tank it does it all really well :D
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Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:45:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Amira Shadowsong on 04/03/2008 16:46:23 Edited by: Amira Shadowsong on 04/03/2008 16:45:56
Originally by: Barliman Butterbur Guys - looking for some general advice about the Amarr HACs.
I got my skills up to be able to fly one about 2 weeks ago and promptly brought meself a Zealot. Not been in the game much lately due to work commitments but the time I've had I've spent trying to get a good set-up for the Zealot - and I canĘt find one that works for the life of me. I have checked the ship set-up index but that seems a bit out dated althogh there are some good ideas in it.
I have 4 tech 2 pulses on it and thatĘs about all I seem to keep on as I continue to put stuff on and take it off, so my question is - would the Sacrilege be a better investment?
Now, I now that the Zealot is going to be getting an extra turret sometime soon, but will that make a difference?
I do have some missile skills as I used to play with a Phantasm, but what I originally was looking for was a ship to get in close and dirty - hence the Zealot and the pulses.
Any thoughts would be welcome.
Close and dirty type of ship is definately more the sacri. Above 15km range is more zealots range of operation. Zealots dont do well inside webranges. The new zealot will be feared in the 15-35km ranges by just about anything smaller then a BC tank.
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Terazuk
Amarr Rogen's Heroes
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Both are very strong ships.
I expect this is for PvP - in which case I would recommend you look at nano setups for both. . .
Nano? ugh! I'd say the Sac every time..
Nice sig btw thanks
What Colour Are You? |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:47:00 -
[8]
Zealot is a sniper ship just like a eagle.
The only reason people use pules is that they have a hard time fitting beams. My suggestion is to use a zealot for its role, which is sniper. For roaming gangs, use a sacri as thats its role.
Fleet Zealot is basicall H: Heavy Beams M: mwd, 2 x sensor booster l: 3 x tracking enhancers, rest heatsinks, rep, fitting mods or whatever
Zealot is 100km+ machinegun sniper so use it for its role. Forget putting a tank on it.
If you want a closerange laser ship, then use a harbringer insted. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Amira Shadowsong
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.03.04 16:49:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Zealot is a sniper ship just like a eagle.
The only reason people use pules is that they have a hard time fitting beams. My suggestion is to use a zealot for its role, which is sniper. For roaming gangs, use a sacri as thats its role.
Fleet Zealot is basicall H: Heavy Beams M: mwd, 2 x sensor booster l: 3 x tracking enhancers, rest heatsinks, rep, fitting mods or whatever
Zealot is 100km+ machinegun sniper so use it for its role. Forget putting a tank on it.
If you want a closerange laser ship, then use a harbringer insted.
Have you faced a 50km ranged pulse zealot with 3xHS in a frig? It pulverizes stuff with several thousand m/s transversal within its optimal.
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Barliman Butterbur
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:01:00 -
[10]
Many thanx for the responses and suggestions all
Looks like I may have completely misunderstood the role of the Zealot by trying to make it a close range fighter - I already have good beam laser skills so now looking at the sniper option.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Lord WarATron Zealot is a sniper ship just like a eagle.
The only reason people use pules is that they have a hard time fitting beams. My suggestion is to use a zealot for its role, which is sniper. For roaming gangs, use a sacri as thats its role.
Fleet Zealot is basicall H: Heavy Beams M: mwd, 2 x sensor booster l: 3 x tracking enhancers, rest heatsinks, rep, fitting mods or whatever
Zealot is 100km+ machinegun sniper so use it for its role. Forget putting a tank on it.
If you want a closerange laser ship, then use a harbringer insted.
Have you faced a 50km ranged pulse zealot with 3xHS in a frig? It pulverizes stuff with several thousand m/s transversal within its optimal.
I do not wish to brag, but as someone who has 332 kills with zealot without a single loss, I know what a zealot is and how it should be used.
A lot of people use a zealot the way a harbringer should be used. Or a Sacri should be used. Ask youself why myself and many other ex-zealot pilots stopped flying them. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 17:34:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 17:35:23
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Firstly I dont fly frigs, and if I did, I would simply warp out and back in again, or maintain tranversal and ignore it as a scorch zealot miss's a lot of its shots vs a competent pilot. I do not wish to brag, but as someone who has 332 kills with zealot without a single loss, I know what a zealot is and how it should be used.
A lot of people use a zealot the way a harbringer should be used. Or a Sacri should be used. Ask youself why myself and many other older zealot pilots stopped flying them.
Have you actually tried a pulse zealot with 3xHS + 3xTracking Enhancer fit with dual SBs?
It can project 63dps PER TURRET on a target with 4000m/s transversal with only 150 sig radius at 48km range. I have ****loads of kills in my zealot too and I can tell you this much, it kills support like flies when fitted like this at 15-50km range. Includes non tanked cruisers. Imagine the fun with 5 turrets. Yummy. So no, scorch zealot doesnt miss alot if you fit it for anti support job. But Im guessing youre not fitting tracking enhancers, wich is fail imo. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Terazuk
Originally by: Felix Dzerzhinsky Both are very strong ships.
I expect this is for PvP - in which case I would recommend you look at nano setups for both. . .
Nano? ugh! I'd say the Sac every time..
Nice sig btw thanks
/sighed.
White, btw.
Originally by: "site"
You value law, order, community and light. You love to protect the social order and the rule of law. At your best, you are just and protective. At your worst, you are authoritarian and dogmatic. Your symbol is a sunburst. Your enemies are black and red.
;-) -- My new keyboard is awesome... I can type again (beware Eve-O spreaders of misinformation!) |
Yoko Lee
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:34:00 -
[14]
I love my tank sacrilege :
5x heavy assault launcher II, 1x small neutra named 1x 10mn mwd II, 1x med cap inj, 1x web (-90%), 1x disruptor II 2x MAR II, 1x amarr navy eanm, 1x armor thermic II, 1x bcs II
3x warrior II / hornet ecm drone
2x nano pump rigs
You can nano this ship but i hate the nano ship and i hate the nano sacrilege, my fit is for pvp to low secure. If you prefer the real fight, take a tank sacri, if u be afraid to lose your ship, take a nano sacri (but rapier/heavy neutra will be dangerous for u), with my precision heavy assault missile, easy to attack a rapier and tank it.
Zealot is a good ship, again u can nano this ship or not, 0.0 pvp men love nano this baby, not me :
4x heavy pulse II, small neutra II 1x 10mn mwd II (2200 m/sec with gang bonus),1x web (-90%), 1x disruptor II 1x SS MAR, 1x ts thermic (40%), 1x ss eanm, 1x dc II, 1x 800mm RT (i have full set slave), 2x ts heat sink
2x ccc rigs
i never lose this ship, i love it
But now some people will say you, nano this ship (dont forget to play like you want)
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/03/2008 18:40:14
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 17:35:23
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Firstly I dont fly frigs, and if I did, I would simply warp out and back in again, or maintain tranversal and ignore it as a scorch zealot miss's a lot of its shots vs a competent pilot. I do not wish to brag, but as someone who has 332 kills with zealot without a single loss, I know what a zealot is and how it should be used.
A lot of people use a zealot the way a harbringer should be used. Or a Sacri should be used. Ask youself why myself and many other older zealot pilots stopped flying them.
Have you actually tried a pulse zealot with 3xHS + 3xTracking Enhancer fit with dual SBs?
It can project 63dps PER TURRET on a target with 4000m/s transversal with only 150 sig radius at 48km range. I have ****loads of kills in my zealot too and I can tell you this much, it kills support like flies when fitted like this at 15-50km range. Includes non tanked cruisers. Imagine the fun with 5 turrets. Yummy. So no, scorch zealot doesnt miss alot if you fit it for anti support job. But Im guessing youre not fitting tracking enhancers, wich is fail imo.
Killing support from 15-50km is topped by killing them from 15-120km+ in a anti-support sniper setup. My old setup I actually dropped to Focused beams, and used fully faction lowslot setup + various implants to make up the dps. All dark blood heatsinks and tracking enhancers and a rep. Less than 2sec ROF and most small support is untanked and therefore quite easaly killable.
Mind you a eagle is a better sniper, and it is also getting another turret. But back in point, for anyone wanting to use a closerange lasership, a harbringer is better. Anyone wanting a glass cannon anti-support sniper, the zealot is a better choice. Anyone wanting a good anti-support sniper + a bit more may as well go for a eagle.
But to answer you question, if oyu position youself, tracking is a non issue as a 100km sniper is a 200km diamiter range of fire. Put youself inbetween battleship and gates and anything MWDing to the battleships has almost 0 transversal to you = instapop, and anything attacking battleship is perfectly within your sniping range to also pop them. You are basically effective at all times.
50km 3 HS 3 x TE glass cannon setup with pulse just does not cut it in my opinion, since you can only take on close range people effectively. Also you present yourself as a "close range" target to enemy support and thus would be more effective in a stronger and better tanked BC rather than a glass cannon pulse Zealot. The 100km Glass cannon zealot can use MWD to maunover itself to maintain firing at all times without becoming a target. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 18:42:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 18:44:03 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 18:43:16 Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 18:42:40 Using aurora is a huge issue. Without it youll have a hard time reaching above 100km. With aurora youll miss constantly at slightest transveral. I have tried all kinds of setups (in combat), the scorch zealot simply hits everything within its range. The beam zealot simply doesnt. Ontop of that pretty much any frig that starts taking fire from a pulse zealot within 50km will be dead before knowing what hit them because of overwhleming power of short range turrets. There are alot of inties getting away because beams have poor damage. And eagle? It has pretty lol damage compared to what a 50km pulse zealot can put out.
But heck I guess we disagree. Not all fights are so laggy that you get to pop lag stationary inties at 100km. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 19:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 18:46:59 Using aurora is a huge issue. Without it youll have a hard time reaching above 100km. With aurora youll miss constantly at slightest transveral. I have tried all kinds of setups (in combat), the scorch zealot simply hits everything within its range. The beam zealot simply doesnt. Ontop of that pretty much any frig that starts taking fire from a pulse zealot within 50km will be dead before knowing what hit them because of overwhleming power of short range turrets. There are alot of inties getting away because beams have poor damage. And eagle? It has pretty lol damage (considering tracking also) compared to what a 50km pulse zealot can put out.
But heck I guess we disagree. Not all fights are so laggy that you get to pop lag stationary inties at 100km.
If you pilot and position a ship correctly, transveral is a minor issue. A swordsmen can only hit 2 meters in front of him. A archer standing in the same line as a swordsmen will all be hitting the enemy who are standing in front of him. Not a effective use of a archer and puts the archer in danger.
Positioning removes the vast majority of transversal issues. Just think where you would position the "archer" if it can hit 100-120km? How could you ensure that the enemy would have to work very hard to kill you, while being 100% effective for full duration of the fight?
There is more to fleet combat than clash of numbers. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 19:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
If you pilot and position a ship correctly, transveral is a minor issue.
How can you say transversal is a minor issue. You do realize that transversal at 100km range is not in your hands. Your puny speed wont have any impact on an inty flying at several 1000 m/s. Its not about piloting smart at these ranges, its about being luck so that the inty happens to be moving towards you or away from you with little transversal.
Im sorry its not a skill or experience thing. You will have trouble hitting inties in a beam zealot. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 20:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/03/2008 20:27:47
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Lord WarATron
If you pilot and position a ship correctly, transveral is a minor issue.
How can you say transversal is a minor issue. You do realize that transversal at 100km range is not in your hands.
Ahh but it is. How can I say it? Well 330+ kills without loss in Sniper zealot says how, and none of them were ganks.
What was my tactic? Well, nobody bothered asking me how I did it, as i would have had no problem telling. Rather, I am being told by someone on the forum that I never did what what has already happened and documented. I see the logic here. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 20:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/03/2008 20:27:47
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Lord WarATron
If you pilot and position a ship correctly, transveral is a minor issue.
How can you say transversal is a minor issue. You do realize that transversal at 100km range is not in your hands.
Ahh but it is. How can I say it? Well 330+ kills without loss in Sniper zealot says how, and none of them were ganks.
What was my tactic? Well, nobody bothered asking me how I did it, as i would have had no problem telling. Rather, I am being told by someone on the forum that I never did what what has already happened and documented. I see the logic here.
Its not hard to get 330+ kills in a zealot. It reaches every target and locks everything fast enough. Ive flown the zealot in fleets. If youre not a complete nub youll get ontop of every mail and also ON every mail. I know there are ways of reducing transversal at closer ranges but at 100km range your efforts will be futile against the potential transversal of an interceptor. Im not saying you can never kill one with a beam zealot, the only thing I said is that a pulse zealot hits high transversal inties MUCH more accurate and pops them easier within 50km then a beam zealot within 100km. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/03/2008 21:54:43
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Its not hard to get 330+ kills in a zealot. It reaches every target and locks everything fast enough. Ive flown the zealot in fleets. If youre not a complete nub youll get ontop of every mail and also ON every mail. I know there are ways of reducing transversal at closer ranges but at 100km range your efforts will be futile against the potential transversal of an interceptor. Im not saying you can never kill one with a beam zealot, the only thing I said is that a pulse zealot hits high transversal inties MUCH more accurate and pops them easier within 50km then a beam zealot within 100km.
A Sabre or cepter MWDing past "close range" people will have will lots of transversal vs you. If he is heading in my direction, he has little tranversal vs me. This is because a 100-120km+ sniper does not sit next to close range support pilots. I am sure you will relise why.
While you can have a 30-50% change of hitting a high transversal ship flying past you to get to battleships etc, I still have 90-95% chance of hitting them due to my position and mobility. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:54:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
A Sabre or cepter MWDing past "close range" people will have will lots of transversal vs you. If he is heading in my direction, he has little tranversal vs me. This is because a 100-120km+ sniper does not sit next to close range support pilots. I am sure you will relise why.
While you can have a 30-50% change of hitting a high transversal ship flying past you to get to battleships etc, I still have 90-95% chance of hitting them due to my positional and mobility.
I understand what youre saying, but Id rather sit 50km off my friends that i protect from support with a pulse zealot then to sit 100km off with a beam zealot. Its more effective. Thats my only point. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing closer and dirtier than the Sacrilege.
wrong.
I believe that the deimos is closer and dirtier
lacks the tank of the sac, true, but the deimos outdamages the sac by far ---
Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:59:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 04/03/2008 21:59:41
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing closer and dirtier than the Sacrilege.
wrong.
I believe that the deimos is closer and dirtier
lacks the tank of the sac, true, but the deimos outdamages the sac by far
Yeah HAML dps is pretty meh
Why they make torps so ganky at close range but totally neglected rockets and HAMLs *sad face*
CCP only want pvp viable battleships but not cruiser or friggey sized caldari/khanid? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Yoko Lee
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Posted - 2008.03.04 21:59:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Yoko Lee on 04/03/2008 22:00:22
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Rodj Blake There's nothing closer and dirtier than the Sacrilege.
wrong.
I believe that the deimos is closer and dirtier
lacks the tank of the sac, true, but the deimos outdamages the sac by far
Sacri can choose damage not deimos but deimos can use 5 med ecm drone not sacri, sacri have better tank and can choose damage but deimos can use med ecm drone = this is the difference.
Med ecm drone are so stronger... too much? maybe, its another debat.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:29:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Lord WarATron
A Sabre or cepter MWDing past "close range" people will have will lots of transversal vs you. If he is heading in my direction, he has little tranversal vs me. This is because a 100-120km+ sniper does not sit next to close range support pilots. I am sure you will relise why.
While you can have a 30-50% change of hitting a high transversal ship flying past you to get to battleships etc, I still have 90-95% chance of hitting them due to my positional and mobility.
I understand what youre saying, but Id rather sit 50km off my friends that i protect from support with a pulse zealot then to sit 100km off with a beam zealot. Its more effective. Thats my only point.
Indeed. Keeping your ship alive and protected is important as well as having freinds to cover you. In closing, there is a reason why I never lost a Zealot yet. This is because you are out of the vast majority of enemy support range and can freely pick targets. usually, the only people that can hit you are enemy battleships, who usually dont have you on overview.
Using midrange in glass cannon setup zealot is doing more of a diservice. Harbringers are better close range because they do the job. I just dont see why a long range ship would want to do mid range, or a short range ship to do midrange. Do one or the other, as long range can always do midrange with navy multifreq ammo if there is a genuine need for it. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Steakkbone
Helios Incorporated Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.04 22:41:00 -
[27]
Both ships are great, I prefer the Sac though. A dual repped sac is a fantastic ship and can take a beating.
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Body Count
Minmatar Necrosys Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.03.05 01:55:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/03/2008 17:08:01
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Originally by: Lord WarATron Zealot is a sniper ship just like a eagle.
The only reason people use pules is that they have a hard time fitting beams. My suggestion is to use a zealot for its role, which is sniper. For roaming gangs, use a sacri as thats its role.
Fleet Zealot is basicall H: Heavy Beams M: mwd, 2 x sensor booster l: 3 x tracking enhancers, rest heatsinks, rep, fitting mods or whatever
Zealot is 100km+ machinegun sniper so use it for its role. Forget putting a tank on it.
If you want a closerange laser ship, then use a harbringer insted.
Have you faced a 50km ranged pulse zealot with 3xHS in a frig? It pulverizes stuff with several thousand m/s transversal within its optimal.
Firstly I dont fly frigs, and if I did, I would simply warp out and back in again, or maintain tranversal and ignore it as a scorch zealot miss's a lot of its shots vs a competent pilot. I do not wish to brag, but as someone who has 332 kills with zealot without a single loss, I know what a zealot is and how it should be used.
A lot of people use a zealot the way a harbringer should be used. Or a Sacri should be used. Ask youself why myself and many other older zealot pilots stopped flying them.
Zealot is flexible enough to be used as a close range ship. But honestly the harbinger is better in the role and cheaper to boot. Try a Harbinger with a full rack of Heavy Pulse II's and it will torch anything it's size or smaller. it reminds me of old still Gankageddons.
Zealot can be used up close but it does make a very good sniper and the Sacrilege and Harbinger are better up close gank ships i think.
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2008.03.05 03:03:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ogdru Jahad on 05/03/2008 03:04:12 for maximum versability.. learn to pilot & fit both properly.. - WTT - Machariel BPC, For a Paladin Contact me ingame.
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Hank Soral
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Posted - 2008.03.05 03:05:00 -
[30]
I envy Amarr tbh, because both of these ships are really, really good.
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