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BlueNoise
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Posted - 2004.04.08 01:51:00 -
[31]
Well the devs consider mining to be too profitable at the moment. So even if your making 1.5 times everyone else mining with your expoilt it's still pretty bad.
The devs are merley fixing a currently exploitable system, in the hopes of delivery a blanced game. If you can't handle that I wish you'd stop playing and trying to ruin the game for everyone else.
Thank you.
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Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.04.08 05:05:00 -
[32]
I also live in Podion, I hope they fix the mining situation soon. I do agree that the missions were quicker, easier, more seductive
But I'm a miner, it's my profession. I don't mind courier missions, but what else should a miner be doing?
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.04.08 08:23:00 -
[33]
I've used mining agents too. I've allways mined so my supplies of the ore the agent demands are plentiful. I'm born a miner, so those missions are my favourites. I admit I could have a streak of maybe 4-5 missions sometimes, where I just clicked "allready done". But suddenly I had to do those 20 jumps "deliver this ore". This would make the average time to complete the missions a bit longer. Some minerals I did have to buy at the market and some ore had to be hauled a few jumps. So the average time for missions would go up if we count the time used for mining.
One way to stop the exploit, is to make just one mission "deliver the ore to me" and the rest of the missions "mine some ore/minerals and deliver it to station x in the y system". I know that would kill those 5-in a row missions, but I'd accept anything to keep my mining agent. But then the reward must be higher or the ammount of ore/minerals must be lower.
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BlueNoise
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Posted - 2004.04.08 09:46:00 -
[34]
^^^^ Good idea.
Make them deliver the ore to a different station most of time. That would put the mining missions on the same level as all the other missions.
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Aelita
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:54:00 -
[35]
OK this discusion is fine, but as is now it's disaster for people in 0.0. Most of station here was settled by agents from mining divisons. We are now cut-off from tree and we are FUBARED. Who will reimburse us for disabling our play? What we shall do? Cancel subscription, leave 0.0 or what we shall do there instead?
After last change 20% corp members did deserted back to Empire space. Plain and simple if change come replace agents with diferent division agents. I point again this change wasn't planed and hurt a lot of inocent players.
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Spice EUMC
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Posted - 2004.04.08 14:45:00 -
[36]
 Quote:
After last change 20% corp members did deserted back to Empire space. Plain and simple if change come replace agents with diferent division agents. I point again this change wasn't planed and hurt a lot of inocent players.
So instead of being screwed hunt down and pod the players who were exploiting. This game has frontier justice written all over it, might be time to dish some out. Mob rules
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The Mousetrap Always Has Free Cheese |
Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.09 12:03:00 -
[37]
Quote:
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
Note that I exclusively use manufacturing agents so I never profited from any mining agents.
taking an unnatural advantage of a loophole in design/implementation is exactly what an exploit is all about. We'll fix it, and you couldn't have done it unless we'd made a booboo in the first place, but it doesn't change the fact that you're exploiting it and could have been banned for doing so.
Like it or not, if you find a loophole like this and exploit it, you may be banned.
/me starts thinking of doing some serious DB queries...
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.09 12:08:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Papa Smurf on 09/04/2004 12:13:12
Quote:
Exploiting is what the idiots in Yulai did by taking advantage of faulty Concord programming. Having stockpiles of minerals is not exploiting.
Any developer with "half a brain" should have recognized that asking for minerals + no delay between missions to be undesirable.
I want to state that people should have known better and regulated their behaviors. But people will always do the wrong thing given the chance. This, however, was not an exploit by my definition.
Ah, joy, have been waiting for an opportunity to test out them moderation tools 
Sayonara ;)
hmmm..... where's the gag tool???
*sigh*
Banning would be too much... a formal warning will have to do... 
Anyhow, just because you think we're stupid doesn't mean you're allowed to exploit a loophole either 
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Zrakor
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Posted - 2004.04.09 14:23:00 -
[39]
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
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Extreme
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Posted - 2004.04.09 16:18:00 -
[40]
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Seems a bit like the solution i gave here on forum but then in a bad form.
Keep one thing in mind that mining corps have no R&D department.
As i read it now, mining agents will be "courier agents" and in case you get a mining mission you get a time penalty.
Now that is a bad tweak !
I will for sure turn my back to "mining" agents. For what purpose do they remain interesting then ? Courier missions are very inefficient in all aspects.
And miningcorps dont give any items and supersometimes they give out a worthless implant (willpower)
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JardaR G'Kar
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Posted - 2004.04.09 17:05:00 -
[41]
If you accepted ALL missions given from agent you ARE NOT EXPLOIDER. That could be easily checked in logs.
EXPLOIDERs were people which accept only mining and implant missions. Easily checked in logs.
If someone as player/dev/CCP cannot see diffrence in this two players or don't want to see this diffrence. Well then this game end in HELL.
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:38:00 -
[42]
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Ah I see the mission timer will be back? This is the one where you cant accept another mission for 15mins or so after your last mission? And will this only effect mining missions or all types of missions? Since I only do courier missions this normally doesnt effect me but just curious.
Guess I havent read the market forum in along time and didnt know that the mining missions were exploitable... guess this is why the # of shuttles I had up for sale in some sectors shot right off the chart in sales. I was scratching my head over that tho maybe that wasn't the reason since all my shuttles are on sale at stations owned by courier corps then mining ones.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:02:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Ah I see the mission timer will be back? This is the one where you cant accept another mission for 15mins or so after your last mission? And will this only effect mining missions or all types of missions? Since I only do courier missions this normally doesnt effect me but just curious.
Guess I havent read the market forum in along time and didnt know that the mining missions were exploitable... guess this is why the # of shuttles I had up for sale in some sectors shot right off the chart in sales. I was scratching my head over that tho maybe that wasn't the reason since all my shuttles are on sale at stations owned by courier corps then mining ones.
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:42:00 -
[44]
Quote:
If you accepted ALL missions given from agent you ARE NOT EXPLOIDER. That could be easily checked in logs.
EXPLOIDERs were people which accept only mining and implant missions. Easily checked in logs.
If someone as player/dev/CCP cannot see diffrence in this two players or don't want to see this diffrence. Well then this game end in HELL.
If you accepted all missions given from an agent obviously you are not an ebil exploiter out to wreak havoc.
However, even without such willful and ebil exploitation, mining agents were bugged so far beyond reason that simply using them at all is really an exploit unless you're extremely daft and don't have the imagination to stockpile ore + minerals.
Any person who benefits from such a bug is indeed "exploiting" in some fashion.
In the end, if the guy who designed or wrote the code says it's bugged, like it or not, you simply have to accept the fact that it is bugged and thus using to gain any advantage whatsoever is indeed exploiting a bug. There can be no higher authority on whether or not a given line of code is working than the designer and the programmer.
And here I am, having written it, and having designed the system around this particular bug, and having typed in the data given to me by the designer responsible for this part of the system, and I am telling you: it is bugged. No questions, no arguments, no doubts about it. Bugged with a capital B and not behaving as intended at all.
There are various degrees of exploitation of course, ranging from the totally unintentional and accidental all the way through to malevolent, highly organized and aggressive pursuit and abuse of bugs. It all boils down to what the intent of the player and the intensity of the exploitation where a given "'sploiter" fits in the grand scheme of things.
But the fact of the matter is that if a section of code is bugged, and you gain from using it, you're an exploiter of some sort. Even if CCP knew about the bug and hadn't verified it, fixed it or even commented on it publically at the time. Even if "at the time" was months ago. Suxx0rs if you're found to be exploiting, but that's just how it is. Thus in any case when you find that you are doing better than your average Joe EVE by an order of magnitude or two, you really should be questioning whether or not this is as intended. Don't assume that it's intended just because lots of people are doing it and have been doing it for a long time. If there is minimal challenge involved in your strategy, odds are it's something that's just not working right, and thus you are in some way "exploiting".
Anyhow, each and every "exploiter" is judged on an individual basis however, so naturally we do see the differences between the cases you mention, and we react differently to each of those cases.
And like I've said elsewhere, unless I see some really horrible evidence in the database, I'm looking at this exploit as a case of "yes, them player's are bein' naughty, but not so much that it's worth doing anything about it other than simply plugging the exploit". Thus it's ranking pretty low on the exploit scale in my opinion.
Some implants got harvested, but only a single type. Some players got 5 times the cash they should have for their minerals, which mostly they had to go mine however. They also got way too high standings. Blah... Standings can't go any higher than 10 anyhow, so even though 9.999999 is infinitely much better than 9.9, it doesn't really count for much.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 05:03:00 -
[45]
Quote:
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
The old 15 min timer? Limited to 4 missions a hour? Like... then the choice between boring old stripmining and agent missions get very easy again. Have to be away to get the agent missions non exploitable without a timer? Really dont need more IDLE time in this game than there it already is :/ Some have limited time to play this game, and this change will be bad for them.
Please reconsider putting the time back in, you are destroying way more than you do good with this. Like the tech2 components wich are supplied only through agent missions, with an timer on the agent missions it will lead to less components available, and prices will go way out of control. But then I guess the nerf bat will hit and remove tech2 components from bonus drops because agent missions get to rewarding. Sigh....
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Qinglong
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Posted - 2004.04.10 06:40:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Qinglong on 10/04/2004 06:44:07
I must support the comment of Ruffio ... 15 mn is far too much ... If you activate again the time delay it will definitely reduce the mission interest which is great now and (except for mining corp) quite well balanced.
Why everybody should be punished by the 15 mn delay because of some exploiter ...
This does not sound really fair 
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Rangar
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Posted - 2004.04.10 08:47:00 -
[47]
Mission timer again? I do only fighting missions, because I find all other types of missions plain boring. Why do I have to be punished with this nerf stick then? My playing time is limited and if CCP wants me to idle I can do that elsewhere as well, maybe even without paying anything for it.
Fixing bugs would do way more for the game than nerfing player experience!
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:22:00 -
[48]
Most missions, you can't even do in less than 15 minutes... so it's not like it would be much of a problem, *except* to the people who are stockpiling huge quantities of ores/minerals/goods etc., specifically to avoid missions taking any length of time. And the whole point of this thread is that you're not supposed to be able to do that. 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.10 12:43:00 -
[49]
Quote:
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
Oh for goodness sake no - can you please stop the double swings of the nerf bat - fine you've added courier missions to mining agents - wait a week and see if that achieves the desired result. Last time you did this you wrecked the cash rewards from doing agents while increasing the time it takes to get from one system to another.
Is there some reason why you guys never seem to modify just one thing in isolation - invariably it damages more than you intended so please just the one change this time huh?
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.04.10 13:52:00 -
[50]
Timer should be 10 minutes.
Here is my justification.
I went through my standings transactions log and I would only bump into a 10 minute timer once per a day or less on average.
However 15 minutes I would bump into alot more.
These are all combat transactions basically.
IDEALLY I would think a person working combat missions would never see the timer rule. So I suggest that 10 minutes is much much better then 15. Finishing a round trip in under 15 minutes happens regularly then im going to have to look at the "no missions yet" type message.
And what does the game loose by making it 10 minutes instead of 15. Think of it in terms of missions per an hour. The most missions you can do in an hour is 6 with a 10 minute timer. The most missions with an hour is 4 with a 15 minute timer. Is this really a big deal?
So in conclusion:
10 minute timer. 6 missions an hour. I will only see it rarely.
15 minute timer. 4 missions an hour. I will see it semicommonly.
The 10 minute option is much better. The difference between 6 an hour and 4 an hour isnt that signficant. And 10 minutes round trip is ~alot~ rarer then 15.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 15:07:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Most missions, you can't even do in less than 15 minutes... so it's not like it would be much of a problem, *except* to the people who are stockpiling huge quantities of ores/minerals/goods etc., specifically to avoid missions taking any length of time. And the whole point of this thread is that you're not supposed to be able to do that.
When I start work for an agent, I take my time and bookmark EVERYWHERE he sends me. After a while I got nice bookmarks and can jump fairly fast from one place to another. Sometimes the agents give you a mission next door and back again, doesnt take long, and you will end up waiting for next mission.
The agents I have that send me on kill missions, they sometimes give me kill missions within same system as the agent is in..... go out there, wham bam, all dead, back in 5 mins.... waiting again... If a timer is included again I would demand reather more challenging missions and if so more rewarding ones as well. Atm I can easily mine 3 mill worth a hour in empire space (not high sec though). And yet how boring mining is, I would rather do that then spend most of my time waiting on agents to give me missions.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.04.10 15:50:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Ah, joy, have been waiting for an opportunity to test out them moderation tools
Sayonara ;)
hmmm..... where's the gag tool???
*sigh*
Banning would be too much... a formal warning will have to do...
Anyhow, just because you think we're stupid doesn't mean you're allowed to exploit a loophole either
Before you go banning half our playerbase, give wrangler, eris or me a shout 
Join the IC! |
MrPops
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Posted - 2004.04.10 17:39:00 -
[53]
No 15 minute timer please. We already have enough downtime.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.04.10 23:24:00 -
[54]
I dont see why they couldnt make it 10 minutes between mission accepts with the same agent.
The difference between 6 and 4 missions an hour isnt a big deal.
And if you check your transactions when your chaining missions you only rarely see 10 minutes between transactions.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 23:36:00 -
[55]
Quote:
I dont see why they couldnt make it 10 minutes between mission accepts with the same agent.
The difference between 6 and 4 missions an hour isnt a big deal.
And if you check your transactions when your chaining missions you only rarely see 10 minutes between transactions.
I rather see them include a timer if you reject a mission, lets say a half hour or so before you can get a new one mission. Then its not so easy to reject what you dont feel like and get instant a new mission to do.
If you do a lot of kill missions for your agent, you can get missions inside same system as agent quite often... and those are done in a few mins. I dont want to spend more time idle in this game than I really have to. And I believe that applies for most of the others doing agent missions too.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Dalmont Delantee
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Posted - 2004.04.11 13:53:00 -
[56]
I completely agree on a reject timer and maybe a 10 min between missions timer...maybe different agents have different times which would be good.
Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons |
JardaR G'Kar
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Posted - 2004.04.11 14:31:00 -
[57]
Or the best will be set timer for agents exept tutorials.
And timer is ( 15 - (10 - security_level*10)) minutes. So doing missions in lower security is faster and more dangerous.
Explanation - in safe regions even NPC people acept agent missions so less missions for PC people. Or something like this.
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Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.04.12 00:31:00 -
[58]
I don't getit. I know that occasionally my Navy agent gives a mining mission which is why I keep a small selection of minerals in my hangar.
So have I been exploiting because I can do the mission instantly?
No, I don't think I haven't its called pre-planning. The same reasons why I keep ammo in stock for doing kill missions.
The people who are stock piling large amounts of minerals and then instantly completeing the missions still have mine\buy refine and\or haul so they are still spending time 'completing' missions.
This idea of a timer is ridiculous. It will severly cut the income I can generate from my navy agent. Most of my missions are kills, and I can complete around about 65-75% of them under 15 minutes. If you hit everyone with this 'fix' then next time you look at the database you will find a mass reduction of people doing missions.
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Celt Eireson
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Posted - 2004.04.12 09:37:00 -
[59]
Hmmmm make it 5 or 7.5 minutes please :-)
As the man said, I get a reasonable number of kill missions either in the same system or one jump out. These missions can easily be finished in less than 10 minutes. I think this applies to most agents who give mainly kill missions (which is fair enough as I understand that courier/cargo missions though generally taking longer also pay out more on average).
Or just drop the rewards/standing you get from mining missions a great deal or in combination with the 5 minute timer. But please please please don't make the timer 15 minutes again.
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AbraKadaver
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Posted - 2004.04.12 09:44:00 -
[60]
15 Minutes for a kill mission is far too long imo. Especially when most of the missions i get tend to be the system in in/next door, and quite easily accomplishable within about 10minutes.
..:: Electro-shock therapy ::..
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