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Danerion
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Posted - 2004.04.07 18:11:00 -
[1]
Well, the topic may lie a little bit but...
Since the "nefantar mining association" mining agents no longer are within my reach i can only run R&D missions on level III agents. Something i dont like to do... all day long...
So, if i want to run ordinary missions with my character do i have to start all over again with a new corp or do CCP plan to inherit the standing's to similiar corps?
Currently i have +8.97 to NMA.
The best alternative agent (not R&D) i can use within NMA is a level II agent with -20 quality.
Is there anything i can do to solve this?
I loose a lot of ISK atm which is pretty anoying.
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Anssett
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Posted - 2004.04.07 18:31:00 -
[2]
They are an Ammatar Faction Corp if I remember correctly (not in-game atm  ) - with such a high rating for them you should have a good Faction standing as well. If you do then you should have better agents with Ammatar Consulate Bureau amd the Ammatar Navy that you can use.
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Verbal Kint
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Posted - 2004.04.07 18:39:00 -
[3]
At the moment all miningAgents are on 'Strike' pending a 'normalization'.
Nothing we can do about it. Dev call to suspend all action on those agents. So try to find another Corp and Agents to work for. It's the only way if you wanna play with agents.
*V.K.*
Verbal Kint - Grumpy ol' c0ot. |
Black January
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Posted - 2004.04.07 19:34:00 -
[4]
You have no idea how much this ****ed me off. Rage is not the word to describe it. About a third of my corporation's miners and haulers were employed working out the logicstics to supply my mining agent with his requests. Completing a steady stream of agent missions was a group effort that took time and skill to maintain. This change didn't just hit me -- it hit everyone in my corporation. It needs to be fixed. And soon.
"Finding another agent" isn't going to cut it. If I can't run agent missions any more chances are I'm just going to go pirate, and probably not just me but those in my corporation who are also out of work because of it. Now is not the time to start over from scratch.
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Demitri Klashnikov
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Posted - 2004.04.07 19:42:00 -
[5]
All Mining corp agents are on strike due to player miss managment
-----------------------------------------------
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Plaeto
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Posted - 2004.04.07 19:42:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Plaeto on 07/04/2004 19:43:34
So, Black January, you're saying that your entire corp was supporting your use of the "insta-mission" exploit? Interesting... |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.07 19:51:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
Edited by: Plaeto on 07/04/2004 19:43:34
So, Black January, you're saying that your entire corp was supporting your use of the "insta-mission" exploit? Interesting...
My thoughts exactly.
Some people should be really glad I'm not a dev/GM/whatever, cause I would ban your ass so fast...
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Verbal Kint
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:07:00 -
[8]
How long has this thing been called an exploit?
This is one of the only things in the game that have worked fairly logical till now. A mining agent hires outside sources to help get the minerals... Can't see any problems here except that some players apparantly have missed out on it and are very mad about it. and Cries so loud a Dev hears it and stops it.
Agreed the pricez is a tad high, but compared to going out and have to mine it everytime they are low. Might have capsized the game cause more and more players have started doing them, but for many it has been the only way left to earn some dull isk. As O.O territory are blocked by player pirates making even more isk than these socalled Exploiters did.
and Gariuys I'm very glad you are not. That would probably kill the game off.
*V.K.*
Verbal Kint - Grumpy ol' c0ot. |
Black January
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:09:00 -
[9]
*I* do missions for Ammatar Fleet. *We* used to do missions as a group for the mining association. If you want to call our teamwork an exploit.. well, you can call an elephant a duck but I don't think it will be quacking for you any time soon.
Our corporation did not exploit the overdue mission exploit this morning. We had an agent which provided the corporation with a major source of income who we, as a collective, did work for. Now we don't. It leaves us out in the cold without anywhere to go.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:26:00 -
[10]
This is *****ing me up, really, You are fecking up the entire system bringing down the average time a missions takes down so much rewards are nerfed to hell and back. You manage to do craploads of missions in hours that takes everyone else days or weeks. Double/triple the value of your ore/minerals. Getting stupid amounts of implants, and tech2 components AND you need a dev to tell you it's a exploit. Ever hear of common sense?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Tribunal
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:32:00 -
[11]
Quote:
They're an exploit in comparison with f.ex. courier/trade missions because those missions have a much greater variation of factors such as commodity type and destination location. For the most part, if you do manage to instacomplete a courier/trade mission, you've done that with a fair amount of effort and thus you deserve being allowed to instacomplete. With mining agents however, there's very little effort involved in instacompleting en masse.
This is from Papa Smurf, is that an elephant I hear quacking?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:34:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Now we don't. It leaves us out in the cold without anywhere to go.
Actually it just means you have to play the same game the rest of us are playing.
If you're after sympathy I think you came to the wrong place.
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Ooke
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:36:00 -
[13]
it would have been fine...
if the agents were paying out at market value or just above/below, but they were dishing it out at a massive profit, I'm sure all your corp mates have willpower implants too with spares for everyone...
group mining missions would be nice, but we're not going to see anything like that for a while yet if ever.
Ooke: May Contain Nuts |
Black January
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:41:00 -
[14]
Quote:
This is *****ing me up, really, You are fecking up the entire system bringing down the average time a missions takes down so much rewards are nerfed to hell and back.
You're presuming that the rewards outweigh the costs by staggering amounts. They don't. They are enough to make it worth our time obviously or we wouldn't do them. They aren't making anyone billions of isk. If you'd like to make an argument about time versus reward I suggest taking a look at NPC spawn chaining.
Quote:
You manage to do craploads of missions in hours that takes everyone else days or weeks.
Yes, we do. It also takes us 2-4 days (depending on activity levels) to gather the ore and minerals we spend in an afternoon. Then its back to the asteroid belts.. Completion time isn't just the time it takes me to click "mission completed." It is also a function of logistics: How long does it take us to haul ore out to my agent? And mining: How long does it take us to mine what we spend? If you think in terms of these things, its not an insta-mission. The mission is the culmination of all of our efforts, all of our time, and all of our hard work.
Quote:
Double/triple the value of your ore/minerals.
You've obviously never done mining missions. Its roughly 1.5 times, not counting hauling costs. Mega and zydrine missions are losing propositions. Twice what they are worth is an exaduration. Three times what they are worth is lunacy, stupidity, or both.
Quote:
Getting stupid amounts of implants, and tech2 components
And again, you've obviously never done mining missions. I can't speak for other agents, but the agent we work for does not have any of the tech 2 component missions. I have NEVER gotten a skill book or tech 2 component reward from my level 3 agent. Ever.
Quote:
AND you need a dev to tell you it's a exploit. Ever hear of common sense?
Good question. I suggest introspective reflection on ones self before questioning others.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:44:00 -
[15]
common sense = not advertising the fact that your entire corp was exploiting.
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Danerion
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Posted - 2004.04.07 20:52:00 -
[16]
Quote:
They are an Ammatar Faction Corp if I remember correctly (not in-game atm ) - with such a high rating for them you should have a good Faction standing as well. If you do then you should have better agents with Ammatar Consulate Bureau amd the Ammatar Navy that you can use.
Thank's for the help! You are cuite right concerning the Ammatar agents. The only problem is that these agents are a security-type agents and my best ship is a Maller with standard equipment. So I don't know if I can handle there missions.
The nearest non sevurity agent is 15+ (one way) jumps away from my R&D agent. Before the change I hade a lvl3 non sec. agent in the same station....
I'm in a singleman corp and can't get help from anybody else.
What to do now?
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Eduard
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Posted - 2004.04.07 21:26:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Eduard on 07/04/2004 21:32:54
Quote:
common sense = not advertising the fact that your entire corp was exploiting.
Mork why you are so envious? Why people who play game by your opinion are exploiters? Deep in 0.0 you need work hard for getting ores for agent. Most of agents in 0.0 are from mining or astrosurvey decisions. Thanks to your dumbness now a lot of people are pretty screwed.
If this is way how CCP want people to be in 0.0 then it's really bad approach this will return most of them back. I'd had in my system two good agents I'd missions for both. My mining division agent doesn't give me only instant missions. I had four ore missions and two deliveries with one kill ratio per average. I'd never refuse single mission. Second agent is security agent. I'd missions for both but security is really low quality -14.
I have no chance now than leave 0.0 space and go back to crowded empire space. I'd check your mission's history you declining transport missions and you doing mineral missions. So clean up your own house before you start calling other people exploiters.
You shouldn't call anyone exploiter if you doing it then call yourself exploiters. Fact is your attitude with others did spoil agents for most of people who did enjoy game. Papa Smurf please don't listen to these greedy people, you should listen to majority of people.
We need organize mining party running over 6 hours in our system to get ores for our agents. Not only mining agent want ores because my security agent wants minerals too sometime once per 10 missions. So please shut-up yourself and let people who are disappointed by short sighting of CCP.
Fact is now 2/5 of agents are disabled should we pay 3/5 of subscription because 2/5 of game is disabled now? I think no. Please make fast solution because level 4 agents are promised over two months and we still see nothing game getting staled in agents.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:09:00 -
[18]
Why would I have any need or reason to be envious?
Quote:
Papa Smurf please don't listen to these greedy people, you should listen to majority of people.
He should and has plugged an exploit. CCP decide what is an exploit remember. It was detailed an exploit a month ago...and again yesterday and again today, by CCP.
The only "greedy people" i can see are those complaining here that their infinite ready-sell market and insta-income has been cut off.
So their easy life has been bought in line with everybody else, coping with agent missions as intended and not reaping the ISK from an obvious and blatant exploitation of the system.
Here's afreebie though: Anytime anybody tells me of an exploit, or a possible exploit, I will go out of my way to ensure that CCP know all about it and those partaking of it, so that CCP know about it and can decide on the issue as they see fit.
You have an issue with it - take it up with them sunbeam.
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Eduard
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:11:00 -
[19]
Mork I'm pointing that if you call someone exploiters then you alone is exploiter too... I'd check your mission history.
I still think it isn't any kind of exploit most of us never did refuse any single mission why we are penalized because some greedy people like you did it?
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:14:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Mork I'm pointing that if you call someone exploiters then you alone is exploiter too... I'd check your mission history.
I still think it isn't any kind of exploit most of us never did refuse any single mission why we are penalized because some greedy people like you did it?
I dont need to check it - but I welcome anybody else to.
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Qinglong
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:14:00 -
[21]
Just my two cents on the subject.
Recently a lot of people convo me to acquire one of my office in NEW CALDARI - MATIGU - Poksu Mineral Group. Offer was growing and growing .. finally I sold it for 50M and the reason why so many people want this office so much.
here after the log of the discussion (I Just erase the name of the buyer):
Quote:
Qinglong > k ... I take my cargo and go there
Qinglong > May be later when you have it you may explain me why so many people want this office ... I received 3 contact this week ??
****** > Sure ill tell you why i need it... when i get it
...<cut out of the subject>...
Qinglong > may be you may explain me why so many need an office here ?
****** > Well the reson is. that is a lvl 3 mining agent here
****** > We have about 10 members doing agent missions for him and we get about 250-500 mill per day
Qinglong > ok
****** > if you organize the agent group you can supply all ore and minerals in hangers and then they dont have to go out of the station
250 to 500 M ISK by day  ... I do not know if it is true or not ... the guy looks kind and serious about it ...
I think that winning so many in one day in 1.0 space probably change the balance of power in the area between corps which use the exploit and corps which don't ...
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:16:00 -
[22]
Black January: I'm talking about the fact that papa keeps track of how long it takes everybody in EVE to complete the average mission you where bringing that down, whehter or not it has affected anything I do not know. But it's bad whatever you look at it.
Mining has it's reward already the value of the minerals, this does not need increasing through a big black hole to sink minerals in when there is a shortage of roids throughout empire, and you're part of the cause of that problem. IF you wanna increase the value of what you mine, mine better ores.
Take a look at my bloody standings ( like I did with you ) never done missions, there are few people in EVE that (without exploiting) have done as many missions as I have ( 1600+ since Castor some 500 before Castor ) I know what the rewards for mining missions are. And whether it's 10% or 200% it's profit with 0 effort.
So you got a crap agent, sorry but the fact that you had some bad luck picking the agent to exploit doesn't mean it's any less an exploit.
What you're missing here is the quite simple fact that even without the profits you're making off the ores/minerals that you are permanently removing from the economy ( which is a BAD BAD thing, roid distrubition is balanced based of certain assumptions, like most of it goes into player production, some into npc corp buy orders ( CCP controlled ) and some goes to agents, you where messing that up bigtime. Ignoring the fact that you are causing a influx of implants into the game that was not intended ( and you damn well know it ). You are also getting something that takes ever other agent runner ages too achieve and that's high standings.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:20:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Just my two cents on the subject.
Recently a lot of people convo me to acquire one of my office in NEW CALDARI - MATIGU - Poksu Mineral Group. Offer was growing and growing .. finally I sold it for 50M and the reason why so many people want this office so much.
here after the log of the discussion (I Just erase the name of the buyer):
Quote:
Qinglong > k ... I take my cargo and go there
Qinglong > May be later when you have it you may explain me why so many people want this office ... I received 3 contact this week ??
****** > Sure ill tell you why i need it... when i get it
...<cut out of the subject>...
Qinglong > may be you may explain me why so many need an office here ?
****** > Well the reson is. that is a lvl 3 mining agent here
****** > We have about 10 members doing agent missions for him and we get about 250-500 mill per day
Qinglong > ok
****** > if you organize the agent group you can supply all ore and minerals in hangers and then they dont have to go out of the station
250 to 500 M ISK by day ... I do not know if it is true or not ... the guy looks kind and serious about it ...
I think that winning so many in one day in 1.0 space probably change the balance of power in the area between corps which use the exploit and corps which don't ...
I don't see any reason to doubt this, you don't take such drastic measures to fix something if it's not being exploited in a huge scale.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Feral
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:21:00 -
[24]
Lets see. Papasmurf posted over a month ago that the devs considered spamming mining agents for instamissions was an exploit. For whatever reason, fixing it got overlooked till now. In the mean time you people have been using it to its fullest potential. (This next bit is a little assumption on my part, so I may be wrong) You have been busy strip mining every belt in empire space to feed your mining agent with minerals, while using a known AND STATED exploit. Now, the devs plug the flaw, and you all start whining and blaming those of us who raised the issue recently for "destroying the game". Please, get real. I have been happily running my non-mining agents. I have earned nigh on 200mill in the last 6 weeks, and that doesnt even include loot from kill missions, tech2 components, or skills. So please, stop telling us how your income has been destroyed, and adapt to the new environment.
Oh yeah, and incidentaly, you may want to re-read the EULA. Very first line is...
ESRB Notice: Game Experience May Change During Online Play
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Eduard
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:22:00 -
[25]
Really true is some people did abuse mining agents in empire space, but people who live in 0.0 has no chance to buy any of ores so they need work before they could fullfill mining agents missions.
Another fact is that stations in 0.0 space are rare so we have not so much agents to pick on. Now actually we are cut-off close to extinct. So we have two options leave game or get back into empire. This is pain death for EVE comunity and 0.0 space. Papa Smurf should thing twice before he did what he did. Without replacement with new agents (any) will make 0.0 even more death space.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:28:00 -
[26]
I like the way it went from "some people might have exploited it" to being all my fault.
Nice one. 
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Knefru Khamen
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:41:00 -
[27]
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
Note that I exclusively use manufacturing agents so I never profited from any mining agents.
---
Ad honorem,
Knefru Khamen
Omnia mea mecum porto. |
Feral
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:51:00 -
[28]
Quote:
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
You are quite accurate in your statement. However, this is an exploit simply because that is how the devs have defined it.
To those who have been claiming that Morkt is responsible for this change... I'll quite happily admit to being the one that actually restarted the debate on this issue recently, not Morkt.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2004.04.07 22:54:00 -
[29]
Quote:
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
The issue isn't about doing the odd insta-mission. its not about turning down the odd mission. its not about doing mining missions.
What it is about is doing massive numbers of insta-missions and turning down everything that can't be done instantly.
Now - i could go down to thelevel of others and name some names where people can look up pages upon pages upon pages of multiple insta-missions per minute only interupted by declining anything that meant leaving the station.
But for anybody with either half a brain or actually, god forbid, honestly curoius enough to research the issue, they would already know both the scale and numbers who were doing it.
In the meantime, as always, others inevitably suffer.
I have no doubts at all that some people using mining agents never even considered the scale of abuse that some have done.
Show me the bit where CCP foregoe any and all control on exploitation of a system to coddle the ego's of a few hard-core exploiters bent on amassing as much isk as possible before their golden goose was squashed though.
I'm just not seeing the bit thats supposedly *wrong*.
Here's a clue - go look up Poksu corp..and find a new caldari agent and his players - then take a good long look at some of that agents players transactions.
Anybody who can say they cant see an exploit there.. well.. whatever.
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Knefru Khamen
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Posted - 2004.04.08 01:05:00 -
[30]
Exploiting is what the idiots in Yulai did by taking advantage of faulty Concord programming. Having stockpiles of minerals is not exploiting.
Any developer with "half a brain" should have recognized that asking for minerals + no delay between missions to be undesirable.
I want to state that people should have known better and regulated their behaviors. But people will always do the wrong thing given the chance. This, however, was not an exploit by my definition.
---
Ad honorem,
Knefru Khamen
Omnia mea mecum porto. |
BlueNoise
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Posted - 2004.04.08 01:51:00 -
[31]
Well the devs consider mining to be too profitable at the moment. So even if your making 1.5 times everyone else mining with your expoilt it's still pretty bad.
The devs are merley fixing a currently exploitable system, in the hopes of delivery a blanced game. If you can't handle that I wish you'd stop playing and trying to ruin the game for everyone else.
Thank you.
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Disfigured Thief
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Posted - 2004.04.08 05:05:00 -
[32]
I also live in Podion, I hope they fix the mining situation soon. I do agree that the missions were quicker, easier, more seductive
But I'm a miner, it's my profession. I don't mind courier missions, but what else should a miner be doing?
_________________
My long, hard Iteron goes into space so deep...it be cryin'.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.04.08 08:23:00 -
[33]
I've used mining agents too. I've allways mined so my supplies of the ore the agent demands are plentiful. I'm born a miner, so those missions are my favourites. I admit I could have a streak of maybe 4-5 missions sometimes, where I just clicked "allready done". But suddenly I had to do those 20 jumps "deliver this ore". This would make the average time to complete the missions a bit longer. Some minerals I did have to buy at the market and some ore had to be hauled a few jumps. So the average time for missions would go up if we count the time used for mining.
One way to stop the exploit, is to make just one mission "deliver the ore to me" and the rest of the missions "mine some ore/minerals and deliver it to station x in the y system". I know that would kill those 5-in a row missions, but I'd accept anything to keep my mining agent. But then the reward must be higher or the ammount of ore/minerals must be lower.
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BlueNoise
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Posted - 2004.04.08 09:46:00 -
[34]
^^^^ Good idea.
Make them deliver the ore to a different station most of time. That would put the mining missions on the same level as all the other missions.
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Aelita
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Posted - 2004.04.08 12:54:00 -
[35]
OK this discusion is fine, but as is now it's disaster for people in 0.0. Most of station here was settled by agents from mining divisons. We are now cut-off from tree and we are FUBARED. Who will reimburse us for disabling our play? What we shall do? Cancel subscription, leave 0.0 or what we shall do there instead?
After last change 20% corp members did deserted back to Empire space. Plain and simple if change come replace agents with diferent division agents. I point again this change wasn't planed and hurt a lot of inocent players.
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Spice EUMC
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Posted - 2004.04.08 14:45:00 -
[36]
Quote:
After last change 20% corp members did deserted back to Empire space. Plain and simple if change come replace agents with diferent division agents. I point again this change wasn't planed and hurt a lot of inocent players.
So instead of being screwed hunt down and pod the players who were exploiting. This game has frontier justice written all over it, might be time to dish some out. Mob rules
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Mousetrap Always Has Free Cheese |
Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.09 12:03:00 -
[37]
Quote:
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
Note that I exclusively use manufacturing agents so I never profited from any mining agents.
taking an unnatural advantage of a loophole in design/implementation is exactly what an exploit is all about. We'll fix it, and you couldn't have done it unless we'd made a booboo in the first place, but it doesn't change the fact that you're exploiting it and could have been banned for doing so.
Like it or not, if you find a loophole like this and exploit it, you may be banned.
/me starts thinking of doing some serious DB queries...
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.09 12:08:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Papa Smurf on 09/04/2004 12:13:12
Quote:
Exploiting is what the idiots in Yulai did by taking advantage of faulty Concord programming. Having stockpiles of minerals is not exploiting.
Any developer with "half a brain" should have recognized that asking for minerals + no delay between missions to be undesirable.
I want to state that people should have known better and regulated their behaviors. But people will always do the wrong thing given the chance. This, however, was not an exploit by my definition.
Ah, joy, have been waiting for an opportunity to test out them moderation tools 
Sayonara ;)
hmmm..... where's the gag tool???
*sigh*
Banning would be too much... a formal warning will have to do... 
Anyhow, just because you think we're stupid doesn't mean you're allowed to exploit a loophole either 
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Zrakor
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Posted - 2004.04.09 14:23:00 -
[39]
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
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Extreme
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Posted - 2004.04.09 16:18:00 -
[40]
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Seems a bit like the solution i gave here on forum but then in a bad form.
Keep one thing in mind that mining corps have no R&D department.
As i read it now, mining agents will be "courier agents" and in case you get a mining mission you get a time penalty.
Now that is a bad tweak !
I will for sure turn my back to "mining" agents. For what purpose do they remain interesting then ? Courier missions are very inefficient in all aspects.
And miningcorps dont give any items and supersometimes they give out a worthless implant (willpower)
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JardaR G'Kar
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Posted - 2004.04.09 17:05:00 -
[41]
If you accepted ALL missions given from agent you ARE NOT EXPLOIDER. That could be easily checked in logs.
EXPLOIDERs were people which accept only mining and implant missions. Easily checked in logs.
If someone as player/dev/CCP cannot see diffrence in this two players or don't want to see this diffrence. Well then this game end in HELL.
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Doppleganger
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Posted - 2004.04.09 20:38:00 -
[42]
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Ah I see the mission timer will be back? This is the one where you cant accept another mission for 15mins or so after your last mission? And will this only effect mining missions or all types of missions? Since I only do courier missions this normally doesnt effect me but just curious.
Guess I havent read the market forum in along time and didnt know that the mining missions were exploitable... guess this is why the # of shuttles I had up for sale in some sectors shot right off the chart in sales. I was scratching my head over that tho maybe that wasn't the reason since all my shuttles are on sale at stations owned by courier corps then mining ones.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:02:00 -
[43]
Quote:
Quote:
The mining agents will be available again shortly after easter. Expect them to have plenty of courier missions this time (and a mission timer).
Ah I see the mission timer will be back? This is the one where you cant accept another mission for 15mins or so after your last mission? And will this only effect mining missions or all types of missions? Since I only do courier missions this normally doesnt effect me but just curious.
Guess I havent read the market forum in along time and didnt know that the mining missions were exploitable... guess this is why the # of shuttles I had up for sale in some sectors shot right off the chart in sales. I was scratching my head over that tho maybe that wasn't the reason since all my shuttles are on sale at stations owned by courier corps then mining ones.
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
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Papa Smurf
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Posted - 2004.04.10 00:42:00 -
[44]
Quote:
If you accepted ALL missions given from agent you ARE NOT EXPLOIDER. That could be easily checked in logs.
EXPLOIDERs were people which accept only mining and implant missions. Easily checked in logs.
If someone as player/dev/CCP cannot see diffrence in this two players or don't want to see this diffrence. Well then this game end in HELL.
If you accepted all missions given from an agent obviously you are not an ebil exploiter out to wreak havoc.
However, even without such willful and ebil exploitation, mining agents were bugged so far beyond reason that simply using them at all is really an exploit unless you're extremely daft and don't have the imagination to stockpile ore + minerals.
Any person who benefits from such a bug is indeed "exploiting" in some fashion.
In the end, if the guy who designed or wrote the code says it's bugged, like it or not, you simply have to accept the fact that it is bugged and thus using to gain any advantage whatsoever is indeed exploiting a bug. There can be no higher authority on whether or not a given line of code is working than the designer and the programmer.
And here I am, having written it, and having designed the system around this particular bug, and having typed in the data given to me by the designer responsible for this part of the system, and I am telling you: it is bugged. No questions, no arguments, no doubts about it. Bugged with a capital B and not behaving as intended at all.
There are various degrees of exploitation of course, ranging from the totally unintentional and accidental all the way through to malevolent, highly organized and aggressive pursuit and abuse of bugs. It all boils down to what the intent of the player and the intensity of the exploitation where a given "'sploiter" fits in the grand scheme of things.
But the fact of the matter is that if a section of code is bugged, and you gain from using it, you're an exploiter of some sort. Even if CCP knew about the bug and hadn't verified it, fixed it or even commented on it publically at the time. Even if "at the time" was months ago. Suxx0rs if you're found to be exploiting, but that's just how it is. Thus in any case when you find that you are doing better than your average Joe EVE by an order of magnitude or two, you really should be questioning whether or not this is as intended. Don't assume that it's intended just because lots of people are doing it and have been doing it for a long time. If there is minimal challenge involved in your strategy, odds are it's something that's just not working right, and thus you are in some way "exploiting".
Anyhow, each and every "exploiter" is judged on an individual basis however, so naturally we do see the differences between the cases you mention, and we react differently to each of those cases.
And like I've said elsewhere, unless I see some really horrible evidence in the database, I'm looking at this exploit as a case of "yes, them player's are bein' naughty, but not so much that it's worth doing anything about it other than simply plugging the exploit". Thus it's ranking pretty low on the exploit scale in my opinion.
Some implants got harvested, but only a single type. Some players got 5 times the cash they should have for their minerals, which mostly they had to go mine however. They also got way too high standings. Blah... Standings can't go any higher than 10 anyhow, so even though 9.999999 is infinitely much better than 9.9, it doesn't really count for much.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 05:03:00 -
[45]
Quote:
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
The old 15 min timer? Limited to 4 missions a hour? Like... then the choice between boring old stripmining and agent missions get very easy again. Have to be away to get the agent missions non exploitable without a timer? Really dont need more IDLE time in this game than there it already is :/ Some have limited time to play this game, and this change will be bad for them.
Please reconsider putting the time back in, you are destroying way more than you do good with this. Like the tech2 components wich are supplied only through agent missions, with an timer on the agent missions it will lead to less components available, and prices will go way out of control. But then I guess the nerf bat will hit and remove tech2 components from bonus drops because agent missions get to rewarding. Sigh....
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Qinglong
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Posted - 2004.04.10 06:40:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Qinglong on 10/04/2004 06:44:07
I must support the comment of Ruffio ... 15 mn is far too much ... If you activate again the time delay it will definitely reduce the mission interest which is great now and (except for mining corp) quite well balanced.
Why everybody should be punished by the 15 mn delay because of some exploiter ...
This does not sound really fair
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Rangar
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Posted - 2004.04.10 08:47:00 -
[47]
Mission timer again? I do only fighting missions, because I find all other types of missions plain boring. Why do I have to be punished with this nerf stick then? My playing time is limited and if CCP wants me to idle I can do that elsewhere as well, maybe even without paying anything for it.
Fixing bugs would do way more for the game than nerfing player experience!
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.04.10 11:22:00 -
[48]
Most missions, you can't even do in less than 15 minutes... so it's not like it would be much of a problem, *except* to the people who are stockpiling huge quantities of ores/minerals/goods etc., specifically to avoid missions taking any length of time. And the whole point of this thread is that you're not supposed to be able to do that. 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Harliquin
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Posted - 2004.04.10 12:43:00 -
[49]
Quote:
The timer'll be on all agent types when it comes back.
Oh for goodness sake no - can you please stop the double swings of the nerf bat - fine you've added courier missions to mining agents - wait a week and see if that achieves the desired result. Last time you did this you wrecked the cash rewards from doing agents while increasing the time it takes to get from one system to another.
Is there some reason why you guys never seem to modify just one thing in isolation - invariably it damages more than you intended so please just the one change this time huh?
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.04.10 13:52:00 -
[50]
Timer should be 10 minutes.
Here is my justification.
I went through my standings transactions log and I would only bump into a 10 minute timer once per a day or less on average.
However 15 minutes I would bump into alot more.
These are all combat transactions basically.
IDEALLY I would think a person working combat missions would never see the timer rule. So I suggest that 10 minutes is much much better then 15. Finishing a round trip in under 15 minutes happens regularly then im going to have to look at the "no missions yet" type message.
And what does the game loose by making it 10 minutes instead of 15. Think of it in terms of missions per an hour. The most missions you can do in an hour is 6 with a 10 minute timer. The most missions with an hour is 4 with a 15 minute timer. Is this really a big deal?
So in conclusion:
10 minute timer. 6 missions an hour. I will only see it rarely.
15 minute timer. 4 missions an hour. I will see it semicommonly.
The 10 minute option is much better. The difference between 6 an hour and 4 an hour isnt that signficant. And 10 minutes round trip is ~alot~ rarer then 15.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 15:07:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Most missions, you can't even do in less than 15 minutes... so it's not like it would be much of a problem, *except* to the people who are stockpiling huge quantities of ores/minerals/goods etc., specifically to avoid missions taking any length of time. And the whole point of this thread is that you're not supposed to be able to do that.
When I start work for an agent, I take my time and bookmark EVERYWHERE he sends me. After a while I got nice bookmarks and can jump fairly fast from one place to another. Sometimes the agents give you a mission next door and back again, doesnt take long, and you will end up waiting for next mission.
The agents I have that send me on kill missions, they sometimes give me kill missions within same system as the agent is in..... go out there, wham bam, all dead, back in 5 mins.... waiting again... If a timer is included again I would demand reather more challenging missions and if so more rewarding ones as well. Atm I can easily mine 3 mill worth a hour in empire space (not high sec though). And yet how boring mining is, I would rather do that then spend most of my time waiting on agents to give me missions.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.04.10 15:50:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Ah, joy, have been waiting for an opportunity to test out them moderation tools
Sayonara ;)
hmmm..... where's the gag tool???
*sigh*
Banning would be too much... a formal warning will have to do...
Anyhow, just because you think we're stupid doesn't mean you're allowed to exploit a loophole either
Before you go banning half our playerbase, give wrangler, eris or me a shout 
Join the IC! |
MrPops
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Posted - 2004.04.10 17:39:00 -
[53]
No 15 minute timer please. We already have enough downtime.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Qutsemnie
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Posted - 2004.04.10 23:24:00 -
[54]
I dont see why they couldnt make it 10 minutes between mission accepts with the same agent.
The difference between 6 and 4 missions an hour isnt a big deal.
And if you check your transactions when your chaining missions you only rarely see 10 minutes between transactions.
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.10 23:36:00 -
[55]
Quote:
I dont see why they couldnt make it 10 minutes between mission accepts with the same agent.
The difference between 6 and 4 missions an hour isnt a big deal.
And if you check your transactions when your chaining missions you only rarely see 10 minutes between transactions.
I rather see them include a timer if you reject a mission, lets say a half hour or so before you can get a new one mission. Then its not so easy to reject what you dont feel like and get instant a new mission to do.
If you do a lot of kill missions for your agent, you can get missions inside same system as agent quite often... and those are done in a few mins. I dont want to spend more time idle in this game than I really have to. And I believe that applies for most of the others doing agent missions too.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Dalmont Delantee
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Posted - 2004.04.11 13:53:00 -
[56]
I completely agree on a reject timer and maybe a 10 min between missions timer...maybe different agents have different times which would be good.
Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons |
JardaR G'Kar
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Posted - 2004.04.11 14:31:00 -
[57]
Or the best will be set timer for agents exept tutorials.
And timer is ( 15 - (10 - security_level*10)) minutes. So doing missions in lower security is faster and more dangerous.
Explanation - in safe regions even NPC people acept agent missions so less missions for PC people. Or something like this.
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Caeneus
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Posted - 2004.04.12 00:31:00 -
[58]
I don't getit. I know that occasionally my Navy agent gives a mining mission which is why I keep a small selection of minerals in my hangar.
So have I been exploiting because I can do the mission instantly?
No, I don't think I haven't its called pre-planning. The same reasons why I keep ammo in stock for doing kill missions.
The people who are stock piling large amounts of minerals and then instantly completeing the missions still have mine\buy refine and\or haul so they are still spending time 'completing' missions.
This idea of a timer is ridiculous. It will severly cut the income I can generate from my navy agent. Most of my missions are kills, and I can complete around about 65-75% of them under 15 minutes. If you hit everyone with this 'fix' then next time you look at the database you will find a mass reduction of people doing missions.
Can't think of anything witty to put here. |
Celt Eireson
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Posted - 2004.04.12 09:37:00 -
[59]
Hmmmm make it 5 or 7.5 minutes please :-)
As the man said, I get a reasonable number of kill missions either in the same system or one jump out. These missions can easily be finished in less than 10 minutes. I think this applies to most agents who give mainly kill missions (which is fair enough as I understand that courier/cargo missions though generally taking longer also pay out more on average).
Or just drop the rewards/standing you get from mining missions a great deal or in combination with the 5 minute timer. But please please please don't make the timer 15 minutes again.
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AbraKadaver
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Posted - 2004.04.12 09:44:00 -
[60]
15 Minutes for a kill mission is far too long imo. Especially when most of the missions i get tend to be the system in in/next door, and quite easily accomplishable within about 10minutes.
..:: Electro-shock therapy ::..
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Ruffio Sepico
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Posted - 2004.04.12 19:46:00 -
[61]
Quote:
15 Minutes for a kill mission is far too long imo. Especially when most of the missions i get tend to be the system in in/next door, and quite easily accomplishable within about 10minutes.
Brining back the mission timer is just plain wrong after they removed it in the first place :/ At least if they bring it back as it was with 15 mins between missions.
Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk
HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
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Nafri
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Posted - 2004.04.13 10:26:00 -
[62]
Quote:
This shouldn't be called an 'exploit', in my opinion. How about 'poor mission design'? Fix the missions. Create more missions. Get rid of worthless rewards. But don't call people stockpiling minerals 'exploiters' when the blame lies on the development side of the game.
Note that I exclusively use manufacturing agents so I never profited from any mining agents.
i can see no difference there
Wanna fly with me?
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Blueblooded
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Posted - 2004.04.13 14:55:00 -
[63]
I like Ruffio Sepico idea of a longer mission timer after rejecting a mission, however I also feel like a regular mission timer whith not nessasary need to be so high not even 10-15 min.
A 5 minute timer would be enought to even out the reward/time for all the missions that does not require that the player leave the station and a 30min timer after rejected mission.
----------------------------------------
"The royal blood is blue, hence my name"
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Ooke
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Posted - 2004.04.13 19:46:00 -
[64]
most of the time, even when I'm in the "zone" I don't do all misssions in 15 minutes. Some I do, others I do not, it all evens out in the end if you actually do them all. but add the timer and I'd be twiddling my thumbs every once in a while bringing up my average mission time to 20+ minutes.
5 minutes would be more than enough to "break" the insta mission bug.
Ooke: May Contain Nuts |
methuselah
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Posted - 2004.04.14 22:05:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Most missions, you can't even do in less than 15 minutes... so it's not like it would be much of a problem, *except* to the people who are stockpiling huge quantities of ores/minerals/goods etc., specifically to avoid missions taking any length of time. And the whole point of this thread is that you're not supposed to be able to do that.
Maybe you can't do most missions in less than 15 minutes, but I can. The timer should be 5 minutes or less.
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Torvus
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Posted - 2004.04.15 11:33:00 -
[66]
5 minutes is good. 15 minutes is annoying badness for us "honest" agent runners.
_____________________________________________________________
War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military.
Georges Clemenceau (1841 - 1929)
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Aiphorn
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Posted - 2004.04.16 07:19:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Aiphorn on 16/04/2004 07:29:08
Mission Timers: While it's debatable if they are "realistic" or not, getting rid of them made life in this game a little more bearable. Removing the timers allowed me (and others, I'm sure) to insert some Real Life(tm) into our game time. Moreover, adding bonuses for fast completion have roughly the same effect to encourage and reward faster work/participation. Re-inserting a mission timer to deal with the mining "exploit" doesn't really address the core problem.
Mining "Exploit":
- Out there in the "real world" stockpiling materials for your best clients to provide virtually instant service is simply called "good business". For companies that can afford to sit on inventory until that "next order" comes up, they are typically rewarded with huge customer loyalty .. similar to the game effect here. For individuals (as opposed to corps (mirroring the same situation in the game)it's even harder to "stockpile and service."
- Keep in mind that to evaluate the "value" of the isk-rewards, the "fair market value" of the ore (since the mission consumes the ore and the player cannot, by definition, now sell it in the marketplace) needs to be taken into account as well.
- Stockpiling materials means that you have materials that aren't "earning" for you from work that you have already done.
- The work of mining/acquiring the ore/minerals in question - which does take time, even though done in advance, still has to be performed. In comparing the time it takes to do a kill mission - for example, compared to the time it takes to mine, clearly the kill mission is faster on a per time doing that-which-is-required-to-satisfy-the-mission.
- In the same context of "insta-mining missions being 'exploits'" should it be asked: Is it an "exploit" to have other players come along and help with kill missions? The player could complete missions that would otherwise be difficult/impossible for them to do (a) in a MUCH faster time (meeting time incentive bonuses and possibly increasing the rating-reward) and (b) reduce their risk of losing their boat and (c) rewards the player for "work that is not theirs" (personally I don't think it's an exploit - but then I don't think that the "insta-mining" should be in that class either). (Yes, I know, not precisely the same thing, but the basic question is still valid).
- What may be missing is balancing, so that time-investment, risk, planning and work are compensated accordingly. Perhaps mining missions need a minimum amount of time before they can actually complete - keeping in mind that the player has already invested real time in attaining the ore/minerals.
- Perhaps examining the breadth, scope and nature of back to back missions could be a solution. Making sure there is a variety of different kinds of ores required, making the amount of minerals needed much higher and factoring out the value of the minerals. Perhaps scaling the ratings increase reward down for "insta" missions using a baseline of say, 1/2 the time it takes to do a kill mission (remembering that the player has already invested time in doing the mining and getting rewarded for foresight, as long as the reward is in balance, shouldn't be ignored) - so, say a "fastest" kill mission with a baseline of 10 minutes say, would result in "x" agent/status increase, then a mining mission at 5 minutes or less would result in the same increase (these are just eg numbers, clearly a lot more thought about balancing would be needed)
Another potential solution would be to "tag" certain classes of ore - or rather, note that the source ore (before processing) would have to have been 'created' after the mission was created. If this sort of solution is adopted, mining missions probably need to be MUCH more rewarding. Kill missions will net as much as 200k for relatively quick missions that often don't require travelling to and from remote locations. Mining missions would be much more similar in inconvenience and tedium as courier missions (which also seem to be seriously undervalued).
(Peronsal note: I recently started doing more kill missions because they are typically so much faster, despite knowing that 'having the right minerals on hand' would give "insta mining missions".)
Short Term:
In the short run, while the dev's are trying to figure out a better balance and ways to deal with this, it seems ludicrous to simply "kill off" these agents. For the time being, to keep the balance of agents (overall numbers of and numbers of lvl 3 agents in-game and in-corp's) why not simply "retoggle" the mining and astrosurveying agents into a different division until the "problem" is either fixed or it's determined that there really was no problem to begin with.
 ... continued ...
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Aiphorn
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Posted - 2004.04.16 07:21:00 -
[68]
Effectively, players would still then be able to at least access the agents that they have worked so hard to build up their standings with - instead of having to go to entirely new corporations and start over (effectively) in building up to higher level agents.
Again - just speaking for my own situation (though I don't imagine it's totally unique), I've lost access to at least 4 or 5 level 3 agents within 3 or 4 jumps of each other. The real drawback - aside from the obvious one that lvl 3 missions are (a) more lucrative and (b) typically a helluva lot more fun, it's only lvl 3 agents (AFAIK) that give out "important" missions. Effectively, I (and I'm sure many others) are stalled in building Faction ratings - needed to access other agents in other corps w/out having to effectively start "all over" w/the new corp to build up.
I leave with the following comments/requests of the dev's. Please:
*take a close look at whether this is really an "exploit" or not. Leave behind the caterwalling, look at the merits.
*make a short term solution and reinsert the "dead" agents back into the game. It makes more sense and it minimizes disenfranchising players who haven't "exploited" (punishing the many for the Exploits of the few?) (I know this doesn't address the concerns of players and corps who focus on mining - it's a short term solution).
Many people have worked hard to establish bases of operations, travel routes, Faction/Agent ratings and the like - all based on the setup of corporations and agents (ask what the effect would be of removing, say, all of the security and R&D agents from the game, even if they are to reappear "soon").
That's my nickel's worth. Thanks.
PS .. while you are at it, could someone PLEASE look at the bonus rewards? For how many missions in a row, from the same agent, will "5 gallent shuttle blueprints" be a "real" incentive. I have enough of these things to wallpaper the hangar ...
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CaptMorgan
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Posted - 2004.04.16 09:01:00 -
[69]
Edited by: CaptMorgan on 16/04/2004 09:05:27
Edited by: CaptMorgan on 16/04/2004 09:04:14
Quote:
Quote:
Exploiting is what the idiots in Yulai did by taking advantage of faulty Concord programming. Having stockpiles of minerals is not exploiting.
Any developer with "half a brain" should have recognized that asking for minerals + no delay between missions to be undesirable.
I want to state that people should have known better and regulated their behaviors. But people will always do the wrong thing given the chance. This, however, was not an exploit by my definition.
Ah, joy, have been waiting for an opportunity to test out them moderation tools
Sayonara ;)
hmmm..... where's the gag tool???
*sigh*
Banning would be too much... a formal warning will have to do...
Anyhow, just because you think we're stupid doesn't mean you're allowed to exploit a loophole either
This really angers me. Know your place Papa Smurf. We are the customers. Name one other company that communicates with their customers as you have. Name one other company that threatens their customers.
15 minute timer will not do. I can think of a million ways to fix this and it obviously shows that your not willing to put an effort into a permanent solution.
Rum.com
Hadean Drive Yards
Your Civilian Auto Cannon perfectly strikes Sansha's Servant Ship, wrecking for 987,547,415.3 damage. |
DarkStar251
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Posted - 2004.04.17 08:48:00 -
[70]
The agents should have been disabled the moment they were decided to be an exploit. Not everyone reads the forums. Some poor player who thoght to himself 'oooh this is a nice earner' could be banned for not going and checking wether it was an explot....
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Armin Chamberlain
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Posted - 2004.04.18 17:29:00 -
[71]
Can't you just apply the time limit to mining agents? Why all the other ones, especially military agents? Doesn't make sense. |
Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.04.19 08:55:00 -
[72]
Quote:
If you accepted all missions given from an agent obviously you are not an ebil exploiter out to wreak havoc.
However, even without such willful and ebil exploitation, mining agents were bugged so far beyond reason that simply using them at all is really an exploit unless you're extremely daft and don't have the imagination to stockpile ore + minerals.
Any person who benefits from such a bug is indeed "exploiting" in some fashion.
Ok, I see what's next: Stocking tradegoods for R&D is considered an exploit ;)
But what do you expect when getting the same missions over and over again? I've got a storage of polytextiles and ectoplasm at my most used agents. It enables me getting at least one instacomplete mission every now and then.
I wish CCP's policy about exploit woulds have been used in the real world. Then we could have gotten all the billionaires around the world that knows how to exploit the system regarding taxes etc.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.04.19 09:53:00 -
[73]
Quote:
I rather see them include a timer if you reject a mission, lets say a half hour or so before you can get a new one mission. Then its not so easy to reject what you dont feel like and get instant a new mission to do.
Great idea!
But I don't understand why timers are so negative. Before castor, there was a 15 minute timer and I saw no problem with that. I either used other agents or did something else in the breaks, like mining some ore for the missions to come.
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Tanner Mirabel
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Posted - 2004.04.19 10:21:00 -
[74]
Quote:
Quote:
I rather see them include a timer if you reject a mission, lets say a half hour or so before you can get a new one mission. Then its not so easy to reject what you dont feel like and get instant a new mission to do.
Great idea!
But I don't understand why timers are so negative. Before castor, there was a 15 minute timer and I saw no problem with that. I either used other agents or did something else in the breaks, like mining some ore for the missions to come.
but then if you mine ore for future missions while waiting for your agent to give you a new mission are you then exploiting?? LoL.
Seriously though, I think the timer is really going against other aspects of the game. Improving your standing with your agent and training to improve their effective quality is supposed to help reduce the distance they will send you, what good is that with a timer as it will now only increase the amount of time you are sat waiting. I get mainly courier missions but Ive got a great standing and have trained my social skills to a high level and so they are often only a short distance.
Its never a good thing to have in a game where you do the task in hand and then have to sit there thinking 'now what?'. There should always be a continuation, you should always be able to finish one job and take on something else. I even have 2 accounts so I can be dealing with one while the other is undocking, traveling etc (perhaps I drink too much coffee). A small timer would be okay but 15 minutes is way too long.
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Chepe Nolon
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Posted - 2004.04.19 12:24:00 -
[75]
Quote:
but then if you mine ore for future missions while waiting for your agent to give you a new mission are you then exploiting?? LoL.
I've got a feeling that planning ahead, hard work and dedication is equal to exploit.
We have to accept that the fish bites better in some parts of the pond, since the ones that have made the pond didn't think of every factor about fishing. But then they have to realize that the fisher would try every spot in the pond until he has found the place where he gets a fish for every throw. Arresting every person who finds the spot before filling the spot is not a good solution. You should reward them for finding those spots instead.
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