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Nyabinghi
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.07 18:55:00 -
[1]
I've noticed a lack of Minmatar ships in these tournament matches. Which leads me to believe that Minmatar ships aren't as PVP viable as the ships of all other races. Or it could be that those who predominantly fly Minmatar ships don't enter tournaments. I was just curious as to the reasoning. ***
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Equium Duo
Catch-22
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Posted - 2008.03.07 18:58:00 -
[2]
As a minnie pilot it is very disconcerting(sp?)
But, tbh it is not unexpected, minnie ships are really good pvp ships, but, when you don't need to do certain things, (warp scram) and you have a limited arena, (minnie can engage when they choose which makes them awesome) It just goes against the minnie philosophy.
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand
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Posted - 2008.03.07 18:58:00 -
[3]
Since so many minmatar ships are based around speed, the limited size of the arena makes using them to their fullest potential somewhat difficult. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79 |
0raven0
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:04:00 -
[4]
Putting most minmatar ships fight well under most pvp circumstances, but the alliance tourny severely limits what you can do while pvping especially for minmatar ships.
But we do still see them, in fact as i am writing this post the next match has started with evoke fielding 7 minmatar ships of the 9 ships they have on the field.
If you notice there are also not many amarr ships besides the Guardian and curse used. Caldari ships are the most common with gallente coming in close second. ------
Quote: tuxford: AT LEAST ITS SPEELED CORRECTLY tuxford: spelled* Oveur: rofl
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:04:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Voculus on 07/03/2008 19:04:59 Nyabinghi! I know I've seen your name in the past, but it's been so long, I can't remember where our paths crossed.
Anyway, as the panel has stated, the limitations imposed by the rules of the tournament pretty much wipe out the advantages of Minmatar ships, and favor the advantages of other ships, some of which, are generally not used in PvP.
With sufficient skillpoints, most Minmatar ships really shine, and while newer folks are sometimes attracted to the ease of Hybids and missiles, they often come to view the capabilities of the higher tier Minmatar ships with envy. Huggin and Sleipnir FTW! _________________________________________________________
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HazeInADaze
Novakia
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:08:00 -
[6]
just look at this cuurent match .....
but seriously minm are for speed/alpha which isnt bad
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Shamis Orzoz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:13:00 -
[7]
It means minnie are the best tacklers.
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JoDirt
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:19:00 -
[8]
Think hit and run....mostly run.... |
Doppleganger
Minmatar Band of Builders Inc.
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:36:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nyabinghi I've noticed a lack of Minmatar ships in these tournament matches. Which leads me to believe that Minmatar ships aren't as PVP viable as the ships of all other races. Or it could be that those who predominantly fly Minmatar ships don't enter tournaments. I was just curious as to the reasoning.
It means minmatar ships are not always the best when having to fit within an enclosed arena. As for being PvP viable... I guess the tournament is just like PvP on tranq.
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Krasnij Okjabre
Caldari Havoc Inc Blood Blind
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Krasnij Okjabre on 07/03/2008 19:37:28 Minmatar ships are amazing. From a Caldari perspective, it's like trying to hit a rat, cranked. With a toffee hammer.
Edited for being wrecked.
You'd be amazed how fast a cast lives run out when you have a hammer. |
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mothermoon2
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Posted - 2008.03.07 19:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tarminic Since so many minmatar ships are based around speed, the limited size of the arena makes using them to their fullest potential somewhat difficult.
am I the only one that missed the scimitar running around the arena untocuhable? personally I think the scimitar might eb the best logtisics ship for single set up as it has the highest solo suvivablity.
however that match really confused me... why wasn't the scimitar repping the drones?
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Nyabinghi
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.07 22:09:00 -
[12]
Thanks all for explaining it to me. Yes it was a bit disconcerting to see so few Minnie ships in the Tourney but I understand now that limited space is not good for our type of ships. Too I think that we have a disadvantage in that we are required to skill up more in order to properly fly the variety of ships we have. Just having to train up both armor tanking and shield tanking is a pain.
To Voculus, I was once part of U'K if that helps. I think I also won a best siggie contest back in the day. ***
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.03.07 22:42:00 -
[13]
is not just limited space, you have enought space to nano, there where both in this tournament and in past ones some teams that field vagas and such... it simply doesnt work that well against a prepared opponent.
also these days minnie ships seem to be more suited to warp away than to kill stuff...
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Cz Ire
Minmatar Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: mothermoon2
however that match really confused me... why wasn't the scimitar repping the drones?
it was either jammed to crap from the rax'x, or since drones arnt worth any points it was a judgement call not to waste cap, my guess.
but yes, scimitar is like the other minnie ships - able to go at great speeds but in an enclosed arena that can be of limited use...
but when were talking about bs's, im suprised were not seeing more 'phoons, but pests and maels... large projectiles just dont have the dps unless you kill the pest's armor tank, and a resistance tank is better than sheild boost bonus like on the mael - which is great in solo, small encounter, or mission setups, but in group pvp its not often that you can boost yourself above any kind of respectable primary firepower. which is the same reason your not likely to see cyclone, claymore, or many sleipnirs.
still, mael can do very good dmg and still have a decent sheild tank, and can do its dmg from furthur out than a mega, so not sure why more of them arnt fielded either. guess its reputation, iirc noones won with a maelstrom yet in a tourney match? although after you fit injector and mwd its only a 4 slot sheild tank; without rigs to help it in the tourney either.
as for minmatar popularity, im sure everyone outside of empire has seen 10-20 man nano-gangs that have 10+ vagabonds and several rapiers in them; they are definatly a popular choice in tranq pvp; huginns and other rapiers to counter them, and who doesnt want to fly a sleipnir? and the hyena may be the king of solo frigates atm (arguable).
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Proxay
Gallente Fallen Angel's Blade.
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:21:00 -
[15]
I used minmatar ships :)
They worked well.
If you're going to remove a signature, at least make sure it's got something that breaks the EULA, k-ta. |
Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:36:00 -
[16]
Though I can't explain why there is a lack of minmatar ships in the tournament, I can say that it means nothing with exception that (MAYBE) there are less matar pilots than gallente. Thorax seems to be a ship favorite even though it has less base pg and cpu and its guns require more cpu and pg not to mention cap use on the guns AND a useless bonus!!! So essentially if you ran ruptures instead of the thorax's they would do better in the tournament. But it pretty much just comes down to the pilots you have, what they can fly, and what each alliance feel's they should field!
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mothermoon2
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:40:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Broch Ensiive Though I can't explain why there is a lack of minmatar ships in the tournament, I can say that it means nothing with exception that (MAYBE) there are less matar pilots than gallente. Thorax seems to be a ship favorite even though it has less base pg and cpu and its guns require more cpu and pg not to mention cap use on the guns AND a useless bonus!!! So essentially if you ran ruptures instead of the thorax's they would do better in the tournament. But it pretty much just comes down to the pilots you have, what they can fly, and what each alliance feel's they should field!
the MWD drive is in no way useless, lastr year it was THE reason bob was taken out.
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Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: mothermoon2
Originally by: Broch Ensiive Though I can't explain why there is a lack of minmatar ships in the tournament, I can say that it means nothing with exception that (MAYBE) there are less matar pilots than gallente. Thorax seems to be a ship favorite even though it has less base pg and cpu and its guns require more cpu and pg not to mention cap use on the guns AND a useless bonus!!! So essentially if you ran ruptures instead of the thorax's they would do better in the tournament. But it pretty much just comes down to the pilots you have, what they can fly, and what each alliance feel's they should field!
the MWD drive is in no way useless, lastr year it was THE reason bob was taken out.
??? umm it doesnt help to have less cap use when u can have a non cap use ship that can run the mwd non stop anyhow!!? so yes, in the tournament, with reguards to comparison with the rupture, its a useless bonus.
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Mythrell
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:46:00 -
[19]
If you like to play EVE with EFT, you can pretty much see that for example, theoreticly Thorax does a lot more DPS than rupture. I do think that Ruptures do a lot more volley damage however, so they could be very effective against ships like guardians.
For other ships, I think the trend is pretty much the same. Other races do theoreticly more DPS or are better in some other area, we minnies have just speed. =/
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Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Mythrell If you like to play EVE with EFT, you can pretty much see that for example, theoreticly Thorax does a lot more DPS than rupture. I do think that Ruptures do a lot more volley damage however, so they could be very effective against ships like guardians.
For other ships, I think the trend is pretty much the same. Other races do theoreticly more DPS or are better in some other area, we minnies have just speed. =/
EFT must do a horrible job at doing the math in eve then. Please show me how a thorax does more dps than a rupture? they both do the same speed, mind you the rupture gets a bonus to ROF! if you could just show me a setup that will out dps a rupture, id be satisfied! :-D
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Mythrell
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.08 18:56:00 -
[21]
Ok so just for sensible pure damage setups
Rupture 4x 425mm T2 AC's 2x HAM T2's 3x Gyrostabs T2
2x Hammerhead T2's + 2x Hobgoblin T2's
595 DPS
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Thorax 5x Heavy neutrons T2 3x Magnetic Stabs T2
5x Hammerhead T2's.
667dps.
Granted that the difference wasn't as big as I remember, but still notable.
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Sekhmet Orion
Mandatory Suicide Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:01:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sekhmet Orion on 08/03/2008 19:03:02
Originally by: Broch Ensiive
EFT must do a horrible job at doing the math in eve then. Please show me how a thorax does more dps than a rupture? they both do the same speed, mind you the rupture gets a bonus to ROF! if you could just show me a setup that will out dps a rupture, id be satisfied! :-D
3 Mag stabs, 5 Electron Blasters with drones will do 550. Rupture struggles to get over 450.
But these numbers dont translate to actual combat. Experience is still the best tool for fitting ships. EFT is useful to see if you have the powergrid cpu
To the OP...yes please Boost Minmatar
Edit. Oh the above poster went for the 425 rupture and Neutron Rax, but whichever way you do it...Thorax is a DPS monster.
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Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:02:00 -
[23]
okay, now calculate that to the difference in tank!!! since u have nothing left to work with on the thorax and the rupture has so much to spare as far as fitting requirements! and why wouldn't you run 1 hammerhead II and 4x hobgoblin II? either way, assuming u run both those setups the rupture would be faster since u no longer have room for the mwd (nvm the fact that the rupture hits from much further) not to mention the rupture would have nearly double the tank so to counter you would need nearly double the dps from the thorax!
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Sekhmet Orion
Mandatory Suicide Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Broch Ensiive okay, now calculate that to the difference in tank!!!
You asked for a set up that made dps. Not one that was realistic. Even gank fitted I think I only ever have 2 Gyro's on a ruppy. Raw dps thorax will out damage ruppy.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mythrell Ok so just for sensible pure damage setups
Rupture 4x 425mm T2 AC's 2x HAM T2's 3x Gyrostabs T2
2x Hammerhead T2's + 2x Hobgoblin T2's
595 DPS
---
Thorax 5x Heavy neutrons T2 3x Magnetic Stabs T2
5x Hammerhead T2's.
667dps.
Granted that the difference wasn't as big as I remember, but still notable.
Why not 650/720mm artillery I'd like to see a guardian do something about that alpha strike form 10 ruptures. i'd go art ruptures plus ew drones if i was running them (now someone will tell me why this is a horrible idea).
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Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:07:00 -
[26]
lol well yeah, but in relavance to fitting issues LOL... sorry for not being specific! u cant run a tank with 5x heavy neutron II on a thorax but u can run a tank on a rupture with 425mm II... so please show me a dps setup that actually has a tank and can still out dps the rupture... the whole point is simply that the rupture is better than the thorax due to the fact that it can actually fit the dps setup; whereas, the thorax cant!
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Broch Ensiive
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:09:00 -
[27]
Norwood... because if u fit those how would you tank? and yes, the guardian will be able to take that alpha strike (especially if theres a 2nd guardian and domi's or somethign else to help rep it) so basically you are paper thin and don't do that great of damage!
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Sekhmet Orion
Mandatory Suicide Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sekhmet Orion on 08/03/2008 19:16:13 Norwood, Autocannons always do more dps than arties. The only thing arty has is alpha strike. I would rub my hands in glee if I was fighting an arty ruppy in a 220 vulcan ruppy
Originally by: Broch Ensiive lol well yeah, but in relavance to fitting issues LOL... sorry for not being specific! u cant run a tank with 5x heavy neutron II on a thorax but u can run a tank on a rupture with 425mm II... so please show me a dps setup that actually has a tank and can still out dps the rupture... the whole point is simply that the rupture is better than the thorax due to the fact that it can actually fit the dps setup; whereas, the thorax cant!
Thorax vs rupture would be a close fight if both properly fitted. Although the ruppy has the initial advantage using barrage to get a bit of falloff damage. Once in web range the blasters would hurt badly.
Btw I wouldn't active tank a gank rupture, 1600 plate 2 gyros dam control and energized (explo pump if you want to splash out)
Gank Rax's are fit similar...its just plate and resist with damage mods. Neither has the cap to run a tank for any length of time. With electrons and 1600 plate plus dam control. Thorax still out dps the ruppy, and has 22k effective hp, compared to the ruppys 21k
They are both very capable cruisers
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:15:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Mythrell If you like to play EVE with EFT, you can pretty much see that for example, theoreticly Thorax does a lot more DPS than rupture. I do think that Ruptures do a lot more volley damage however, so they could be very effective against ships like guardians.
For other ships, I think the trend is pretty much the same. Other races do theoreticly more DPS or are better in some other area, we minnies have just speed. =/
quite the opposite, blasters have high alpha while ACs have poor one.
a thorax put also out more dps, prob have generally better resist dmg, andcan better use drones... maybe a rupt can put out bit better tank, but imo not really worth considering the pros a thorax have
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar Fleet of the Damned United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.08 19:15:00 -
[30]
I didn't really think about that too much just throwing an idea out there, I usually run artillery on a cyclone for gate camping and it insta-pops shuttles etc, but yeah rupture doesn't have the cyclones PG, I don't think I've ever seen a guardian on TQ, so not sure how much alpha you'd need to pop it :), still with EW on 1 guardian artillery on the second be interesting i think.
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