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General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 12:44:00 - [1] Edited by: General Coochie on 09/03/2008 12:47:58 Edited by: General Coochie on 09/03/2008 12:46:18 I think the common consensus on the forums is that the Celestis, Lachesis and Arazu was hit to hard with the introduction of scripts, reduction of dampeners and dampening riggs effectiveness. Due to PvP being as it is in EvE, fights usually happen at close range or extreme long range. Dampeners aren't suited to handle any of them. The optimal range and falloff dampeners aren't working effectively outside 135km. Making them less useful in fleet engagements. For smaller scale PvP, most combat happens under 24km (scram range). A dedicated dampening ship can only hope to dampen something to about 15km lock range. If the target got a sensor booster it will be around 25-30km. In my opinion, the dampening effect in itself isn't that bad. Dampening a target to 15km can be crippling. The problem is that the dedicated ship only can hope to cripple one non close range fighting target at the time. A niche to small to warrant the use of the ship. The Caldari and Gallente EWAR are similar, they are both used to put targets out of combat by disrupting their lock. The Caldari EWAR has a 0-250km effective range while gallente has a 20-135km effective range. There are arguements that dampeners never fail, but in all honestly a rook vs 1 battleship will never fail either. Caldari EW is so effective it can lock down 2-3 ships almost permanently. Dampeners can hope to cripple one ship, if its not extreme long range or close range. The real problem is that the Caldari recons fill the role of target disruption so much better in every way. 20 days for caldari cruiser V is an investment any dedicated ewar pilot should do. The very small niche that the gallente EW ships have is not even unique, caldari EW outperforms it where its supposed to be best. To start with I propose a 10% Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per skill level. to the celestis, lachesis and arazu. Just to make them a bit better and more useful for the moment. And do it now! But I feel dampeners NEEDS to be looked at more carefully in the long run. Some suggestions: * Being able to totally lock down one ship under web range unless he has 2 sensor boosters fitted. but not being able to lock 4 ships under 25km at the same time. OR * Being able to get 2-4 ships non boosted locking range under 25km. But not being able to lock down 1 ship more then 15-20km. This means changes in the way dampeners stack, but I think its necessary to give damps a niche of their own again. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Stefan F Enrave	Posted - 2008.03.09 12:51:00 - [2] Just no. Period. Gallente gets armor tanks to be effective at close (scram) range to fit mwd, scram, web, injector. In return caldari get more effective EW. Not entirely tough, as you already stated yourself you could miss a cycle and then there will be swarmes of drones on your head and you'll die. Pretty balanced i think, without all races be the same.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:07:00 - [3] Edited by: General Coochie on 09/03/2008 13:08:35 Originally by: Stefan F Just no. Period. Gallente gets armor tanks to be effective at close (scram) range to fit mwd, scram, web, injector. In return caldari get more effective EW. Not entirely tough, as you already stated yourself you could miss a cycle and then there will be swarmes of drones on your head and you'll die. Pretty balanced i think, without all races be the same. And Caldari have the advantage of range and no tracking penalty and can choose damage type. Two very different roles. Also a rook vs a single BS doesn't miss a cycle. The Gall EW and Caldari EW doesn't differ in roles now. So you can't compare it like that. I could go about saying how the drake has a nasty passive tank etc etc, and how the onyx is way better tanked then phobos. But it hasn't got much to do with the discussion now does it? I can live with caldari EW being better. but I think gallente EW atleast should have its own niche but it doesn't. Caldari EW out compete it in practicly any situation. I'm not for making them similar quite the opposite. I just think for the moment at 10% bonus so we don't have to wait 1 year for dampeners to be changed. It wont make a huge difference 5 -> 10%, they still damp a lot worse then before the patch. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:09:00 - [4] Originally by: General Coochie Due to PvP being as it is in EvE, fights usually happen at close range or extreme long range. Dampeners aren't suited to handle any of them. Welcome to the crap world of TDs. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: General Coochie Due to PvP being as it is in EvE, fights usually happen at close range or extreme long range. Dampeners aren't suited to handle any of them. Welcome to the crap world of TDs. They are atleast getting a falloff script now. And also they affect a different attribute then locking. What bothers me is that locking is dominated by Caldari and that gallente EWAR takes up a small part of that role, but can nowhere near do it as efficiently. Also Amarr have a 2nd EW with quite a different role. Why fly an arazu when you can fly a falcon? There is NO reason. Flying a curse or pilgrim still has it uses as the role is so different. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:27:00 - [6] Did you actually think through that number of 10%/lvl? 7.5% sounds more like it to keep them anywhere near reasonable.
MrLobster Clawstrawphonebeer	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:31:00 - [7] Yep I hope ccp buff up the arazu and lachesis damp bonus, but I would expect them to introduce low slot damp boosters, the same as the ECM has Signal Amps. Or they could just have the signal amps affect both TD and Damps too and not just ECM. Trying to use an arazu/lachesis against any single ship that has an MWD is going to turn bad. /me hugs my arazu. _________________________
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Sokratesz Did you actually think through that number of 10%/lvl? 7.5% sounds more like it to keep them anywhere near reasonable. To be honest I made a calculation on it, but doing it again I see I must have done it wrong. I agree 7.5% sounds better. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.09 13:37:00 - [9] IMO they should do the same thing to gallente EW ships like they did on Caldari. BOOST the SHIPS that are meant to use the EW, not the modules. caldari ew ships where crap.. but they got boosted and now ECM is usefull again... but ONLY on the ships whit bonus. atm 3x dampner whit 3x scripts dont even = 3x damps before the nerf on one attribute (range or lock speed) so... boost celestis, arazu, lacheisis(spelling), maulus and the ew frig like they boosted rook, scorpion, falcon and the 2x frigs ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Mogren CCCP INC	Posted - 2008.03.09 16:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Riho IMO they should do the same thing to gallente EW ships like they did on Caldari. BOOST the SHIPS that are meant to use the EW, not the modules. caldari ew ships where crap.. but they got boosted and now ECM is usefull again... but ONLY on the ships whit bonus. atm 3x dampner whit 3x scripts dont even = 3x damps before the nerf on one attribute (range or lock speed) so... boost celestis, arazu, lacheisis(spelling), maulus and the ew frig like they boosted rook, scorpion, falcon and the 2x frigs Agreed. Boost EWAR ships such as the Arazu/Celestis/Lach to make them stand out for their EWAR capabilities. At the moment they are, quite frankly, half-assed.
arbalesttom Caldari Glauxian Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.09 16:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Riho IMO they should do the same thing to gallente EW ships like they did on Caldari. Yes please! *Sig* Originally by: Cpt Branko That is a JoJo, a forum troll used by Amarr whiners. Originally by: Mitnal Locked, one troll after another. Mitnal, Community Representative
Garmon Minmatar Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.03.09 18:05:00 - [12] The problem about damps was that any ship could make good use of them, i agree that the gallente recons need a boost, either have damage mods for their stength or bigger ship bonus Also at the op, falcons are too strong, but dont compare it with damp ships, the gallente recons can tank, armor/nano, can tackle, can apply dps __________________________________ Garmonation - Rupture fun video
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.09 18:42:00 - [13] I think one of the devs mentioned somewhere that using a whole recon ship to disable one enemy was the intended balance - good luck getting a boost :) ---- WTB Armor Nerf Hardener II, 10^100 isk OBO
torN Deception GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.09 19:16:00 - [14] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin I think one of the devs mentioned somewhere that using a whole recon ship to disable one enemy was the intended balance - good luck getting a boost :) I guess those devs have never heard of the Falcon or Rook because both can keep multiple battleships perma-jammed from over 200km away. You'd think that CCP would have realized the nerf to RSDs should have been offset by a boost to RSD-specific ships, since at the same time they were implementing the same fix to ECM boats.
Ivan Kinsikor Amarr International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.09 20:21:00 - [15] ITT people who can't think outside of the box when using damps. Killing is business and business is good.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.09 20:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Malcanis on 09/03/2008 20:25:23 Originally by: General Coochie Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: General Coochie Due to PvP being as it is in EvE, fights usually happen at close range or extreme long range. Dampeners aren't suited to handle any of them. Welcome to the crap world of TDs. They are atleast getting a falloff script now. And also they affect a different attribute then locking. What bothers me is that locking is dominated by Caldari and that gallente EWAR takes up a small part of that role, but can nowhere near do it as efficiently. Also Amarr have a 2nd EW with quite a different role. Why fly an arazu when you can fly a falcon? There is NO reason. Flying a curse or pilgrim still has it uses as the role is so different. hey, you're right. The 4 weapon slots and 40m^3 drone bay the falcon has make it far more powerful than the Arazu. Oh, wait. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.09 20:29:00 - [17] A while ago, I suggested this: Let signal distortion amplifiers affect all EW types: ECM, Tracking disruptors, sensor damps, target painters. Falcons/Rooks get great EW, but at the expense of not being able to do anything else. If you want to use all your lows and mids for EW then great. Hey, at least you'll still have those 4x Hammerhead IIs. I'm jealous. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Garmon Minmatar Genos Occidere	Posted - 2008.03.09 20:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor ITT people who can't think outside of the box when using damps. Flaming Coochie? If your not going to contribute to the thread, continue to embarass your self __________________________________ Garmonation - Rupture fun video
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 20:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Ivan Kinsikor ITT people who can't think outside of the box when using damps. do tell how to use damps then. considering today's ranges, they are either A) too short range for snipers, or B) too inefective for allowing short-range ships to get to the target. don't forget that even today you need 3 damps to be able to affect a ship somewhat, and even still, you can only be sure that they will do damage up to 40km. ECM is much better, even considering the fact that they might not hit 100% of the time, simply because you can push their range to ranges unthinkable by damps. And you only need 1 module. so yes, I agree with coochie. keep the damps as they are, but boost the damn gallente recon line. --- Trinity Nova Mercenary Services Web Site - Nominated for the 2008 E-ON Magazine Awards
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 21:25:00 - [20] Quote: I think one of the devs mentioned somewhere that using a whole recon ship to disable one enemy was the intended balance - good luck getting a boost :) Well then I say that they definitely require a boost because they struggle with that at the moment. Quote: hey, you're right. The 4 weapon slots and 40m^3 drone bay the falcon has make it far more powerful than the Arazu. Dude, if I want a ship dealing dps with a lame attempt at EW I can just pick a thorax with ECM drones. Theres were the arazu stands today its a lame attempt for EW with lousy DPS. Sure it can cloak to, wow! now look at the lachesis.. And ppl argue that a falcon or rook can't fit nano or tank. Why doesn't falcons and rooks fit mwd and tank really? Because they can't? NO. Because they don't need to. Being able to warp in at 200km and start jamming they don't really need to tank or nano now do they? But you can do it you are welcome to if you wanna downgrade your rooks and falcons to look down just one target (like the arazu is limited to). Theres plenty of slots over for nano, tank or whatever you feel like after making a setup sure to lock down a BS with a high probability. Why don't ppl do this? Because the jammers is the falcons and rooks tank. Someone locked you? Jam and warp. Also having full rack of jammers and full rack of signal distortion mods gives you gang such a huge advantage that fitting for more survivability isn't worth it. This is the gallente recons main problem, their EW isn't enough of protection anymore. Before you could fit a web, damp whoever got close and get out. Reason ppl don't fit a arazu with 6 damps to effectively and theoretically being able to lock down 2 ships is that its suicide, the arazu needs a bit of a tank and the ability to nano to even stand the slightest chance in a gang vs gang situation. The limited range of damps doesn't help and the fact that a nano ship can get under the damps in about 10sec from the damps optimal range is problematic to say the least. I do like the idea giving signal distortion mods to all recons. It would give us recon pilots a choice to fit really powerful EW, with lack of tank or the otherway around. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.09 21:28:00 - [21] Originally by: General Coochie Why fly an arazu, curse, lachesis or pilgrim when you can fly a falcon, rook, huginn and rapier? There is NO reason. Fixed. Huginns and Falcons together do EVERYTHING. There is no need for gallente or amarr recons really. There are SMALL uses and thats neuting a tank (no real use, youll gank it anyway at some point but it help a little) or having long range disruption. Yay. Both amarr and gallente recons need a boost to get inline with minmatar and caldari ones. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 21:43:00 - [22] Edited by: General Coochie on 09/03/2008 21:43:23 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: General Coochie Why fly an arazu, curse, lachesis or pilgrim when you can fly a falcon, rook, huginn and rapier? There is NO reason. Fixed. Huginns and Falcons together do EVERYTHING. There is no need for gallente or amarr recons really. There are SMALL uses and thats neuting a tank (no real use, youll gank it anyway at some point but it help a little) or having long range disruption. Yay. Both amarr and gallente recons need a boost to get inline with minmatar and caldari ones. I don't fly amarr recons myself, and I rarely encounter them. So I can't say much about it. I'm not gonna argue against you though. This thread is simply about the gallente recons and how to easily make them just a little better for now. My alt is gonna train amarr recons at some point and at that time I can give my input on the subject =) But I do agree that gallente recons (and amarr if you say so) need a boost, the falcon, rook, rapier and huginn don't need a nerf. I love EW to be as powerful as minni/caldari is. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.09 21:43:00 - [23] Originally by: General Coochie Quote: I think one of the devs mentioned somewhere that using a whole recon ship to disable one enemy was the intended balance - good luck getting a boost :) Well then I say that they definitely require a boost because they struggle with that at the moment. Quote: hey, you're right. The 4 weapon slots and 40m^3 drone bay the falcon has make it far more powerful than the Arazu. Dude, if I want a ship dealing dps with a lame attempt at EW I can just pick a thorax with ECM drones. Theres were the arazu stands today its a lame attempt for EW with lousy DPS. Sure it can cloak to, wow! now look at the lachesis.. And ppl argue that a falcon or rook can't fit nano or tank. Why doesn't falcons and rooks fit mwd and tank really? Because they can't? NO. Because they don't need to. Being able to warp in at 200km and start jamming they don't really need to tank or nano now do they? But you can do it you are welcome to if you wanna downgrade your rooks and falcons to look down just one target (like the arazu is limited to). Theres plenty of slots over for nano, tank or whatever you feel like after making a setup sure to lock down a BS with a high probability. Why don't ppl do this? Because the jammers is the falcons and rooks tank. Someone locked you? Jam and warp. Also having full rack of jammers and full rack of signal distortion mods gives you gang such a huge advantage that fitting for more survivability isn't worth it. This is the gallente recons main problem, their EW isn't enough of protection anymore. Before you could fit a web, damp whoever got close and get out. Reason ppl don't fit a arazu with 6 damps to effectively and theoretically being able to lock down 2 ships is that its suicide, the arazu needs a bit of a tank and the ability to nano to even stand the slightest chance in a gang vs gang situation. The limited range of damps doesn't help and the fact that a nano ship can get under the damps in about 10sec from the damps optimal range is problematic to say the least. I do like the idea giving signal distortion mods to all recons. It would give us recon pilots a choice to fit really powerful EW, with lack of tank or the otherway around. Good luck "jamming at 200Km" when your gang has just jumped through a gate. Come to that, where is the "warp to 200Km" option? I can't find it. Falcon has superior EW to the other recons. Absolutely no question about that; I'm not even attempting to argue that it doesn't. But it can't do anything else. It certainly can't stop them warping off like some ship with 60Km Warp scams might be able to. Riddle me this: which race has the most specialised, gang-focused, long range ships? Are it's recons the logical culmination at this philosophy? Contrariwise, which race is all about the up close and personal in-your-face-with-lots-of-drones damage? Are it's recons abilities reflected in that philosophy? Seriously, can you think of a reason why Force Recons shouldn't be a ship class in which Caldari excel? If you want Falcon-class ECM in your Gallante Recons, then I want an extra bonus on my Falcon so that I can do anything else except jam. Falcon is great at EW because it's totally focused on it's EW, Caldari style. Arazus can perform another very powerful function. If you just want Falcon class EW, then train Caldari Cruiser 5, ECM 4, Signal Dispersion 4. Takes about a month. It's not like it really uses many other skills the Arazu doesnt. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Batelle HOMELESS.	Posted - 2008.03.09 21:49:00 - [24] The script nerf hit the dampeners hard. I think the damps needed the nerf honestly, however i think it hit the dedicated dampening ships too hard. Boosting the 5% bonus to 7.5% on the keres, celestis, arazu, and lachesis, would make this ships worth flying again, without disrupting game balance.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:03:00 - [25] Edited by: General Coochie on 09/03/2008 22:03:59 Originally by: Malcanis Good luck "jamming at 200Km" when your gang has just jumped through a gate. Come to that, where is the "warp to 200Km" option? I can't find it. Falcon has superior EW to the other recons. Absolutely no question about that; I'm not even attempting to argue that it doesn't. But it can't do anything else. It certainly can't stop them warping off like some ship with 60Km Warp scams might be able to. Riddle me this: which race has the most specialised, gang-focused, long range ships? Are it's recons the logical culmination at this philosophy? Contrariwise, which race is all about the up close and personal in-your-face-with-lots-of-drones damage? Are it's recons abilities reflected in that philosophy? Seriously, can you think of a reason why Force Recons shouldn't be a ship class in which Caldari excel? If you want Falcon-class ECM in your Gallante Recons, then I want an extra bonus on my Falcon so that I can do anything else except jam. Falcon is great at EW because it's totally focused on it's EW, Caldari style. Arazus can perform another very powerful function. If you just want Falcon class EW, then train Caldari Cruiser 5, ECM 4, Signal Dispersion 4. Takes about a month. It's not like it really uses many other skills the Arazu doesnt. Oh no a nano friend in my gang has to make a warp in point for me so I can disable half the other gang without risking dying! What team work? So much hassle.. The point still stands that you *can* fit a falcon or rook for tank or nano sacrificing your EW capabilities to the same level as the gallente recons. Its your own choice not doing so. If I had the choice taking out 4 ships at 200km or take out one ship while being nanoed or tanked Id be happy. Caldari recon pilots have this choice that you prefer the former and whine about not being able to to the second at the same time is interesting. And the race argument is so 2 years ago man. What race is less affected by being neuted, amarr racial enemy? What race is huginn and rapier most effective against? What race is the only one being affected by tracking disruptors? Who does target painters benefit most? The racial argument is stupid and I hope you know/realize this. I'm not asking to be as effective as falcons and rooks. I'm comparing towards them as they are similar in the role. I would more then happy locking down 2 ships in my arazu but I guess thats to much to hope for, so I settle with being able to lock down one ship in most situations, as opposed to locking down one ship half decently in some situations. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Azekial Beasts of Burden Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:10:00 - [26] Edited by: Azekial on 09/03/2008 22:13:33 Don't forget about the Sensor Dampening Strength rig, that got nerfed after the patch as well. The rig went from 10% boost to strength and 10% penalty >>to>> 5% bonus to strength and 10% penalty. This really annoyed me as I had fitted them on my Arazu and Lachesis before the nerf was mentioned, now I have two ships with 4 rigs that cost 10-15m and they have been made almost useless. And on the note of warpins for Caldari Recons/BB - one Cov op get's a point on the enemy gang - interceptor/t1 frig warps to within 100km of the cov op, caldari recon/BB warps to within 100km of the interceptor/t1 frig. Instant 200km spot and only risking an interceptor/t1 frig
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Azekial Edited by: Azekial on 09/03/2008 22:13:33 Don't forget about the Sensor Dampening Strength rig, that got nerfed after the patch as well. The rig went from 10% boost to strength and 10% penalty >>to>> 5% bonus to strength and 10% penalty. This really annoyed me as I had fitted them on my Arazu and Lachesis before the nerf was mentioned, now I have two ships with 4 rigs that cost 10-15m and they have been made almost useless. And on the note of warpins for Caldari Recons/BB - one Cov op get's a point on the enemy gang - interceptor/t1 frig warps to within 100km of the cov op, caldari recon/BB warps to within 100km of the interceptor/t1 frig. Instant 200km spot and only risking an interceptor/t1 frig Id like you to try to get warp ins on every day gate campers that camp a familiar gate. The falcon will have dussins of 100-150km bookmarks around the gate. Id like to see you counter that. As soon as something gets close, it just warps to another spot and continues jamming. THERE IS NO COUNTER AGAINST ECM. CCP needs to give us something that can effectively fight these. Its just so boring when you HAVE TO have your own falcon to avoid all that trouble. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Barasu Minmatar Earned In Blood	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:39:00 - [28] if you boost that then fix the minmatar ewar... target painting just sucks tbh
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Barasu if you boost that then fix the minmatar ewar... target painting just sucks tbh Fix minmatar EW? Got the 2nd best EW in the game. The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie)
Azekial Beasts of Burden Cosmic Anomalies	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Azekial Edited by: Azekial on 09/03/2008 22:13:33 Don't forget about the Sensor Dampening Strength rig, that got nerfed after the patch as well. The rig went from 10% boost to strength and 10% penalty >>to>> 5% bonus to strength and 10% penalty. This really annoyed me as I had fitted them on my Arazu and Lachesis before the nerf was mentioned, now I have two ships with 4 rigs that cost 10-15m and they have been made almost useless. And on the note of warpins for Caldari Recons/BB - one Cov op get's a point on the enemy gang - interceptor/t1 frig warps to within 100km of the cov op, caldari recon/BB warps to within 100km of the interceptor/t1 frig. Instant 200km spot and only risking an interceptor/t1 frig Id like you to try to get warp ins on every day gate campers that camp a familiar gate. The falcon will have dussins of 100-150km bookmarks around the gate. Id like to see you counter that. As soon as something gets close, it just warps to another spot and continues jamming. THERE IS NO COUNTER AGAINST ECM. CCP needs to give us something that can effectively fight these. Its just so boring when you HAVE TO have your own falcon to avoid all that trouble. I think you missed my point, I was on about the Caldari Recons getting a spot 200km off a gang/fleet to jam them. I was saying it's pretty easy and you don't have to risk much at all.

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