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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2008.04.04 16:54:00 -
[121]
i agree with the op
gallente ewar need a revision
talking about armor tank and such is just a patetic try to avoid the issue: caldari got almost the best of everything (just thing about pve, damage choose, range, no tracking, shield tank, and so on, so please stay on topic and talk about ewar)
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.04 17:08:00 -
[122]
Edited by: General Coochie on 04/04/2008 17:11:33
 Originally by: Vagra
give all minmatar ships a 5% increase per lvl to speed thats what i say :)...
your Gal, you have armour tank with lots of mids slots for ew. STOP MOANING
Stop being an idiot and making an ass of yourself on the forums.
* Minmatar and Gallente recons have same amount of mids and lows, therefor they are equally good at EW and armor tanking.
* This thread is about gallente recons, discussing other gallente ships is pointless.
* This thread is not about dampeners as a module, I think everyone agrees they don't need to be changed, but the bonus the specialized dampener ships should get when using these modules.
Originally by: James Lyrus
Max effectiveness on a damp (on the recons in question) clocks in at:
Which, according to EFT, puts a Rokh on:
0 RSD: 112.5km (-0%)
1 RSD: 46.61km (-58.57%)
2 RSD: 22.88km (-79.6%)
3 RSD: 15.24km (-86.45%)
4 RSD: 12.71km (-88.70%)
5 RSD: 11.92km (-89.40%)
6 RSD: 11.71km (-89.58%)
With 7.5%/level, which is in turn tied to Cruiser, not recons, that's a 37.5% bonus, rather than a 25%.
Which is (with level 5 ewar skills) -58% without rigs, or 64% after rigs. Which is basically a 10% increase in their effectiveness. (1.375/1.25)
Which in turn would make those numbers above:
0 RSD: 112.5km (-0%)
1 RSD: 40.01km (-64.427%)
2 RSD: 16.76km (-85.1%)
3 RSD: 10.125km (-91.0%)
4 RSD: 7.26km (-93.5%)
5 RSD: 5.91km (-94.74%)
6 RSD: 5.06km (-95.5%)
Exactly the numbers I personally would like to see.
An Arazu worth about 100mill (no insurance) effectively cripples one 100mill ship (that can insure). Add cloak and the effective tackling the ship can provide and it gives the edge warranting buying a 100mill ship that can't insure. If it didn't put the rokh out of the fight bringing an insurable 100mill ship (a rokh yourself with ECM drones) would be a much better idea, bring much more to the fight.
3 RSDs are common on a damp ship, 4 can be crammed in there. Add a sensor booster on the rokh and he isn't damped that bad. After all not having a counter module should hurt when facing a EW ship. And having it should really help. Run the numers again with a sensor booster on the rokh and I think most ppl can agree its a fair increase of the dampener ships bonuses.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2008.04.04 17:09:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Suitonia
The biggest problem with damps really is that their range is far too short to dampen the ships who rely on range the most. Today's Snipers & long-range support ships (Eagle, Apoc, Rook etc.) far exceed 135km (45 + 90 @ Max skills).
In my opinion the 5% to hybrid damage bonus on the celestis hull should be changed to 20% Optimal range of RSD's per level, this would give 180km range at max skills (90km + 90km). This would make it far more effective at dampening snipers and long-range support, something that dampeners by their very nature should be more effective against. The Range is also important as it gives the arazu/lachesis/celestis a better survival chance since it doesn't have to throw itself in front of midranged ships and drone control range.
Secondly, theres not much options avaliable to dampener ships, (Or TP/TD ships) to spec at the dampening role, other than a set of rigs (which are next to useless since they were halfed, better off with ewar optimal rigs, or agility/speed rigs). Would really likely to see a lowslot module that increases the strength of RSD'd, kind of like a mirror of Sig amp's.
100% just on skill is way too much tbh. Low-slot modules that increase range 20% each would be much better.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.04.04 18:01:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Malcanis
100% just on skill is way too much tbh. Low-slot modules that increase range 20% each would be much better.
Do I seriously need to explain to you for the 5th time that this is a bad idea?
-Liang
--
Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
hedfunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.04.04 18:39:00 -
[125]
Hopefully they will get boosted soon, they were the first ship i really trained for. Took a good few months. The lach before HIC's were the ultimate tackler, especially on minnie gates. Regarding Damps, however, they definatley need a boost now, they're pretty crap these days.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.05 18:10:00 -
[126]
Edited by: General Coochie on 05/04/2008 18:09:53
Range isn't what damps need in my opinion. They are fine as mid range EWAR as long as they can perform that task (which they can't at the moment to a satisfying result). For solo they don't need more range either.
And I think most arazu pilots would choose more dampening power, crippling ships even at fairly close range over being able to damp snipers out of the fight.
Leave the long range EW to ECM.
Let the Gallente EW do what it is supposed to do while actually being useful.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Ruciza
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Posted - 2008.04.05 19:15:00 -
[127]
Damps ARE long range EW.
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Dont Look
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:32:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Ruciza
Damps ARE long range EW.
lol
Tell me then what is ECM?
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Marcus TheMartin
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2008.04.05 20:36:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Dont Look
Originally by: Ruciza
Damps ARE long range EW.
lol
Tell me then what is ECM?
annoying
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Dracon Zethera
Nexus Analytics
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.04.06 01:34:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Barasu
if you boost that then fix the minmatar ewar... target painting just sucks tbh
Webbers are also minmatar Ewar.
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General Coochie
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.04.10 11:43:00 -
[131]
Edited by: General Coochie on 10/04/2008 11:44:58
Something happened me today that illustrates just how useless damps can be.
I was testing my alts mission runner dps apoc in a low sec belt. As it was pretty much the first time ever I piloted a BS I felt I had to get a bit of feel for it. Long story short I find myself scrambled by a broadsword.
Broadsword orbits at 21km so I warp cooch in to damp him loosing lock so alt can warp out. Now broadsword has a very short lock range, only 55km, and 68.75km fully skilled.
2 of my arazus damps with my skills should put that range down to 18. Sufficient for him loosing lock.
3 damps, 13km
and 4, 11km
I warp in at 50km from alt, broadsword was at 40~60 km away from, as he was orbiting so distance changed. I'm not skilled in long range EW. However I still have about 90->70% chance dampening him at this range.
With 4 damps only 2 needed to damp to set my alt free. It didn't happen for the first and second cycle. Sometime during second cycle maybe even before it broadsword approached alt being very close, which ofc was exactly what he should do in that situation. So 2nd cycle might and might not have gone off when he was at 21km-11km.
When apoc was about to pop broadsword swiftly closed distance to my arazu, he got right on top of me before I managed to warp. And this time damps saved me, as he couldn't start locking before he was inside 11km.
Yes I was unlucky that atleast 3 damps failed at that range trying to save the apoc. Had I better skills would probably be different outcome yes. I could have warped closer, but broadsword had friends inbound, and fitted to bust missions, I didn't wanna risk my expensive arazu.
Counting on damps to be useful outside of optimal (45km!) can be as much of a gamble as counting on ECM to work. And when you need atleast 3 damps to work to get a desired effect in many cases you either gotta be close to the fight or not be guaranteed to get the effect you want.
An arazu pilot can with his damps most often keep himself alive against one target in this aspect its a good EW, but its not really a solo ship anymore. But bringing damps to a gang as support wanting to bring EW as useful support is very situational. Most times you find yourself dampening without any effect.
The Vigil and The Caracal (duo PvP movie) |
Rutefly
Amarr
Freedom-Technologies
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Posted - 2008.04.10 12:22:00 -
[132]
Originally by: General Coochie
(stuff..)
Due to PvP being as it is in EvE, fights usually happen at close range or extreme long range.
(other stuffs..)
Amarr being middle range surely has way too powerful ewar compared, or not or something.
Minnies, i dont trust those bastards, fly paper-hat ships, and need ewar when someone gets too close, compard to gallante who can put up decent tank etc.
I think its all fine as it is.
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Taguchi Hiroko
Deadly Addiction
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:40:00 -
[133]
signed. boost the gallente recons. they are expensive glorified cov ops atm.
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 09:39:00 -
[134]
/me signs op
The nerf to gallante recons was over the top, and they need a serious balancing boost.
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Wardeneo
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.04.22 10:44:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Wardeneo on 22/04/2008 10:44:30
Originally by: Riho
IMO they should do the same thing to gallente EW ships like they did on Caldari.
BOOST the SHIPS that are meant to use the EW, not the modules.
caldari ew ships where crap.. but they got boosted and now ECM is usefull again... but ONLY on the ships whit bonus.
atm 3x dampner whit 3x scripts dont even = 3x damps before the nerf on one attribute (range or lock speed)
so... boost celestis, arazu, lacheisis(spelling), maulus and the ew frig like they boosted rook, scorpion, falcon and the 2x frigs
agreed, the problem isnt with the mods its the specified ships bonus's the ships need the boost not the mods
wardeneo |
Kel Solaar
Soulbound.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:36:00 -
[136]
/Signed
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Fugi'et'Occulto
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Posted - 2008.04.22 13:46:00 -
[137]
/signed,
Though really a 10% increase isn't as unreasonable as you would fear, though the more moderate 7.5% has a better chance of succeeding
Originally by: Liang Nuren
In most cases, your gang would literally be better off if you fit target painters to your Arazu instead of damps.
QFT.
If you can't at the very peak (Level V's, rigs, implants) manage to get 2 battleships down to at least close to web range, this ship is a joke. Under the numbers provided 7.5% would at the very best get you 16.76km per the provided stats. That is still pitiful for a ship specializing in dampening, but its better than nothing.
TBH, the scripts + the paper hull + the horrible speed and cap, are more than enough to cripple this ship. |
Kaseki
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Posted - 2008.04.22 16:55:00 -
[138]
Edited by: Kaseki on 22/04/2008 16:57:17
Originally by: Suitonia
The biggest problem with damps really is that their range is far too short to dampen the ships who rely on range the most. Today's Snipers & long-range support ships (Eagle, Apoc, Rook etc.) far exceed 135km (45 + 90 @ Max skills).
In my opinion the 5% to hybrid damage bonus on the celestis hull should be changed to 20% Optimal range of RSD's per level, this would give 180km range at max skills (90km + 90km). This would make it far more effective at dampening snipers and long-range support, something that dampeners by their very nature should be more effective against. The Range is also important as it gives the arazu/lachesis/celestis a better survival chance since it doesn't have to throw itself in front of midranged ships and drone control range.
Secondly, theres not much options avaliable to dampener ships, (Or TP/TD ships) to spec at the dampening role, other than a set of rigs (which are next to useless since they were halfed, better off with ewar optimal rigs, or agility/speed rigs). Would really likely to see a lowslot module that increases the strength of RSD'd, kind of like a mirror of Sig amp's.
I agree with this. Doctrinally, the RSD should just require the enemy to close range--forcing them to engage Gallente ships within Railgun and Blaster range. It shouldn't knock ships out of the fight, just force them in closer. RSD should shape the fight, not end it. To do this it needs range, otherwise it's just another target for snipers and ECM. There is no such thing as "Mid-Range ECM."
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Jin Entres
Malevolent Intervention
Reavers.
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Posted - 2008.04.22 19:21:00 -
[139]
I fly gal, cal and minnie recons. I own three Lachesis and one Arazu. I haven't undocked them once since the damp change. Huginns and Rapiers I fly regularly. The difference in usefulness between the races is simply and astoundingly ludicrous.
So, needless to say, increasing the bonus is very much needed. I think the warp scrambling bonus should also be increased to the same 60% per level that minmatar have for webs. Then the gal recons would actually be of use in tackling: they don't have the speed and survivability of interceptors or the tanking of HICs. And, Zeus forbid, it might actually make mid-range a viable engagement proximity. |
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