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OK, what about Minmatar now?

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haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:02:00 - [1] Hello community, Please let me clearify first , this is not a ' everyone getting boost we want some too!' thread. I want everyone read as objective as possible. As new tweaks , boosts, +1 slots flying around, i want everyone notice that theese changes effect Minmatar badly. Maybe some of u never fly them, or u just crosstrain other races. Or like me, some of u just adapt by knowing that there is not enough forum warriors for Minmatar. Nonetheless, i will keep hope, there is still some Minnie love out there. I ve labeled the subjects with numbers. 1 - TEMPEST - Outdpsed by Abaddon, Hyperion, Megathron, Raven so on. - OutAlphaed by Abaddon, Maelstorm - Outtanked by ..by...i dont know maybe the worst tankin BS out there I dont think this ship needs 7th turret, but even with double bonus to its guns, maybe its the worst BS atm in every aspect. Agility increase (close to CS) , and some speed tweaks looks best atm. 2 - MUNINN - Definitely outranged, outdpsed, outtanked by Zealot and Eagle. - Eagle is far better Antisupport HAC now in every range, and beyond Muninn's range. - Muninn has No roles atm. Doing everything worse than its counterparts. - +1 lowslot maybe?, remove ROF add another %5 dmg ? i dont really know. 3 - TYPHOON - I am gonna repeat this forever, versatility means 5/5 slots, not 4/4. -This ship needs 5/5 slots. 4 - ARTILERY - 10 shot per gun is so horrible. I cant find a word how pathetic it is in laggy fleet blobs or in missions. Neither Abaddon nor Rokh pilot can understand this. - Artillery needs their ammo size to be Doubled. 5 - TARGET PAINTERS - TPs needs a slight boost like; t1 TP = %30 t2 TP = %45 6 - BELLICOSE 7 - WOLF / JAGUAR CCP said that AFs are being looked into. What is wrong about them is, Wolf is a Boundless Creation ship, Jag is Thukker Mix. They recieving wrong range bonuses due to Minmatar style , roleplaying whatever. Wolf has always been an Arty boat. - Switch their bonus like; Optimal for Wolf , Falloff for Jag. 8 - TRACKING DISRUPTORS - We will play on TQ with new TDs. And what i know from being an almost 3 years old player is ; No matter when, TEs and TCs will get bonus to falloff. - There is no reasonable explanation for TDs being an EWAR without counter.(rigs are not counter modules) ------------------------------------------------------------ I just tried to post my ideas while not trying to hurt anyone. While doing this ,I want CCP's attention and care on Minmatar problems. There may be some points i did miss, feel free to fill thoose. Many thanks to anyone who care about Matari's. haq aan (45 mil SP Minmatar/Amarr (Khanid) pilot) note for Lyria Skydancer: Please do not ruin this thread. Not this one.I feel u hate Minmatar somehow, but keep it low in this one.
Tashiell Gao Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:21:00 - [2] I tend to keep my hands off the "reply button" in ships&modules and COAD threads. but seeing a boost minmatar thread, which might benefit me in the future, i ll give it try. Welcome to EVE online, choose your difficulties: easy, medium, hard, minmatar. we are expected to be "skilled" pilots, look a rifter is killing an abbandon!! bitter much? train the race that's getting boosted. and "Agility increase (close to CS) , and some speed tweaks looks best atm." you thinking of kiting other bses? Tashiell Gao, Minmatar in-side, RolePlayer.
Anna Lawrencia	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:26:00 - [3] very much agree with this and ill like to add a few more. 3 - TYPHOON - I am gonna repeat this forever, versatility means 5/5 slots, not 4/4. - The Typhoon is also very hard to fit because of its low PG even with perfect skills. -This ship needs 5/5 slots. - Some extra PG. 4 - ARTILERY - 10 shot per gun is so horrible. I canÆt find a word how pathetic it is in laggy fleet blobs or in missions. Neither Abaddon nor Rokh pilot can understand this. - Also got the lowest dps of any weapon system, a little improvement in this area wonÆt hurt. - Artillery needs their ammo size to be doubled. - An increase in DPS output will do good (1 volly ships is not a problem after hp buff) 9 - VARGUR - Can't Fit Artillery because of pathetic low PG - Designed for Auto cannons a weapon system not way designed for missions, huge ammo cost witch reduce profit and never doing full damage - Outperformed by t1 battle ship (maelstrom) A fix to this problem is simple, give it more Pg and trade the + falloff bonus for an optimal or rof bonus, it is sup pare to all the other t2 battle ship and even some t1.
Orvy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:40:00 - [4] I have to agree with the official poster. As a pilot who can only fly minmatar ships I do admit that developers are not paying enough attention to our fleet. ______________________________________________ Fighting for perfection of sweets recepies
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:42:00 - [5] never touch the phoon... i will be soo ****ed if they change any slots on this uber ship ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Linas IV	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:43:00 - [6] 1. Signed; even if i still hope for the 7th turret, would love to see a real minmatar gank BS ^^ 2. Never flown one, so no idea. 3. The typhoon is awesome, but needs a crapload of Skills to do so. 5/5 with the recent torp buff would be over the top imo. 4. Signed badly. Thats a real problem! i hate having to warp out of a fight just because i want to reload. 5-9. Signed
Orvy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Riho never touch the phoon... i will be soo ****ed if they change any slots on this uber ship It is an good ship. I think if they added 1 or 2 med slots to this ship, it would be complete. ______________________________________________ Fighting for perfection of sweets recepies
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:53:00 - [8] 3 - TYPHOON - I am gonna repeat this forever, versatility means 5/5 Hardpoints, not 4/4. -This ship needs 5/5 Hardpoints. Ouch , i ve made a mistake between slot and hardpoint. I am gonna fix it now ... It should be as above. Thank u guys for ur support. I wish CCP should notice also.
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:55:00 - [9] There really does need to be an "oh ****" factor when you get hit by a target painter. Possibly even double. Would be nice nano counter. Webs for stopping ships escaping scrambler range or back to the gate and getting to support ships ect. But target painting for hitting fast moving ships outside of web range? Eh tempest could use something i spose. But who knows what? Muninn just needs beefing up alot. Typhoon is alright. Artillery, yea i reload often. Its a real problem with passive tanks because once you chew through the buffer you have to reload and then they just charge right back up again.
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.03.09 14:57:00 - [10] Edited by: Twin blade on 09/03/2008 14:58:53 I agree with all but the Muninn. As a mid range sniper i belive it will still be a great ship at mid range sniping but yes will be out classed by the other's now. The missile's and drone's are quite nice logstic drone's and maybe a few missile's 3-4 Muninn might be able to fight off some small ships where the other snipers would just die. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
MassonA Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.09 15:05:00 - [11] Typhoon definately needs 5/5 turret/launcher hardpoints, i'm fine with the general slot layout though. Muninn needs more range / midslot for TC whatever.
Zilexan	Posted - 2008.03.09 15:05:00 - [12] removed titel, mistake or?
Anarkia Evangel Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.03.09 15:06:00 - [13] 1. Temoest I agree that the tempest needs help, I's my favour ship in the game and maybe crapest BS. I dont have a problem with the low apha Vs the tier 3, as they are t3 ships. But its got crap dps and a terrible tank, its got pretty much the lowest hp out of the t2, more like a t1 in that repect. the shield and amour (hell) should all be equal imo, much like min caps. Its ment to be one of the most Versatile BS in the game, with its slot lay, sort of what Minmatar are all about, but this is the reason it fails so much. Most bs have a big amour buff or good dps to balance it out, some have both, tempest has neither. 2. Muninn I do enjoy flying this ship, its fun to fly, but if i where to cross train, I can't think of a reason why I would fly it anymore. I reckon its slots should be swaped around, lows with mids. It would be nice to beable to tank something! 3. Typhoon. I disagree with the 5/5 slot lay out, completely and utterly disagree. The ship needs its hp swaped, its an amour tanker at heart but looking at the shield and amour hp, it says shield, which doesnt work to well with 4 slots. 4. Artilery. Agree here, they are like that because of there high alpha, which its really anything to write home about these days.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.09 15:17:00 - [14] Agree with everything above, including the Vargur which was posted in a reply. ACs could use 10% more falloff as well
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.09 15:20:00 - [15] ok.. 5/5 turret/missiles slots is ok :D ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Wideen Eon Project Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.03.09 16:16:00 - [16] Edited by: Wideen on 09/03/2008 16:17:07 say what you like about the rest of the ships, the the typhoon is wtfpwn as it is and no ship currently existing have 10 weapon hardpoints, why should a ship that is perfectly fine be the first? edit: oh and btw, and 5% ROF bonus is more damaging than a 5% dmg bonus Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:17:00 - [17] o/ Wideen, Tempest has 6 turret , 4 launcher Hardpoints = 10 Typhoon definitely needs 5/5 hardpoints due to her split bonus and versatility (lol i hate this word) Bump for attention. All of theese problems are so important and needs to be looked at immediately.
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:23:00 - [18] Originally by: Wideen Edited by: Wideen on 09/03/2008 16:17:07 say what you like about the rest of the ships, the the typhoon is wtfpwn as it is and no ship currently existing have 10 weapon hardpoints, why should a ship that is perfectly fine be the first? edit: oh and btw, and 5% ROF bonus is more damaging than a 5% dmg bonus not 10 SLOTS but hard points :) you would still have 8 slots.. but you could use 5 missiles launchers and 3 guns or 5 guns and 3 launcher combo :) and yes.... 5% rof bonus is better than 5% damage bonus. ---------------------------------- This is Me, fighting stupidity one post at a time. PS: There are no computer BUGs, there is stuff called "Random Features"
Acinonyx Jubatus Minmatar International Multi-Player Consortium Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:42:00 - [19] 1 - TEMPEST I actually like it, it's the space weeble. It's a bit fragile and not the best ofcourse, but you are comparing it to 2 Tier3 BS, so I'm not suprised... How bout a 10% bonus to damage and no rof how's your arty doing now. Yeah, I know, not very well thoguht out but it'd be fun for alpha. 2 - MUNINN I personally would rather have a midslot, or even move a highslot to a midslot, since 7 highslots is insane when you only really need 5 of them, the midslot would do well as a sensor booster or tracking computer slot, however I do understand it wouldn't fit within its minmatar/boundless creation niche. Simply read the description and you'll figure it out. 3 - TYPHOON I... kinda like it's versatility, but other than that it's very skill intensive to use. 4 - ARTILERY Yeah, ammo hold is a bit tough, and fairly annoying to be shooting someone and realize... you're reloading, and it doesn't last that long when repeatedly firing, I'd say 50% increase would be helpful if anything, least it won't be that large of an increase, but it's better. 5 - TARGET PAINTERS TP's don't stack, so get enough and you're a capital's best friend... 6 - BELLICOSE Eh... get a bunch of bellicose and you're a capital's meatshield friends. 7 - WOLF / JAGUAR I agree, switch their range bonuses, just seems odd. 8 - TRACKING DISRUPTORS Well, least ACs and Blasters will have a worthy counter to, and with the fact minmatar ships with ACs are popping up everywhere... :/ Also, I have an amarr character, so this will be very interesting, an increase in fear and fear inducing.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.10 09:50:00 - [20] i agree on most points but for some i want to reply TYPHOON: 5/5 will not be good for the ship (even if i agree will be better than now) problem of the phoon is split weapon, it need a main weapon system in high slots so we can gank it whitout so many problems as now and the second ship bonus can be turned in something more usefull. personally i'll prefer it to become minnie heavy missile boat with 6/2 or eventually even 5/3 if will be OP with 6 turrets. note that 6 turrets doesnt mean it will be like the raven. phoon will be more geared to close range gankage due to the lack of bonus of missile velocity (that is a big bonus for the raven). the second bonus can go in mwd, speed or even TP. the idea is to have a fast an agile ship, able to close the range pretty fast or to stay over 15km and with decent ew/tackling capability. (while the Raven is a tank+gank ship good from short to mid range) also note that PG should be boosted to accomodate the new launchers and armor/shield hps should be switched TEMPEST 7 turrets, not much to say. i think that with 7 it will be a pretty good ship, still outdamaged by gall but with a lot of direct dmg potential. MUNINN an high slot should be moved to mid (or eventually even low) then i think the ship will be balanced (of course that will include arty revamp) ARTILLERY i disagree about clip size, in past i alredy posted some graph, same graphs where also posted by tux himself in Rev1 beta forum. Arty is simply outranged, outdps and outtracked by other long range weapons, in particular i'm referring to rails that (if i remember right) have around 20% more base dps and 25-30% more range at arty optimal, on top of that they track way way better than arty. the cap issue is actually non existant for long range (i'm speaking about rails not lasers that have other benefits) and fitting is also generally better. all arty have is the alpha... something atm quite anachronistic expecially after ships got 50% hps boost in rev and rigs probably boost the defence efficency to +100% if not more. Arty to compensate got something like 5% more dps that didnt changed anything. i think dps on arty should be totally revamped, their dps should be brought up to make them between lasers and rails. the idea of clip size, even if is in practice a dps boost doesnt seem that good to me. on the opposite i will prefer a dmg boost, eventually even reducing a bit the clip size. the idea will be to give arties very high burst dmg (that is bit different than alpha and generally more effective) but to put more delay between these "bursts" my idea is to have them as first dps/dmg for a very short duration (let's say 20-30s) but then be forced to waste time and dps reloading (eventually even the reload time (for arties only) can be improved. this can also lead to a more differentiation between 1200 and 1400mm... 1400mm could have smal clip size, long reload and very high burst dmg. on the other hand 1200 will have more tracking and more "stable dmg" with bigger clip size so to recap 1400mm get a dps boost in form of higher dmg, balanced giving them smaller clip size/long reload time. 1200mm can get dps boost in form ofbigger clip size and maybe higher rof. note that arties will still be outtracked by all other guns and their range will still be way way inferior to rails and bit worse than tachs (that imo need a cap usage reduction to rebalance but that's another story :P) i was speaking of 1400/1200mm but of course that apply to mid, small and cap size arties too. NAGLFAR even with an arty revamp it need another mid or low slot. (will be better to have split weapon go away but can live with additional mid or low :P) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Lrd Byron	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Riho Originally by: Wideen Edited by: Wideen on 09/03/2008 16:17:07 and yes.... 5% rof bonus is better than 5% damage bonus. they are basically identical effects when you consider reload times.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:08:00 - [22] Tempest and muninn need +1 gun and more grid, muninn also could do with an extra mid in spite of a high, and a higher base locking range. That, or increase the tracking bonus from 7.5 to 15%/lvl to make it the uber closerange anti-support. Vargur - increase it's grid and swap the faloff bonus for a second damage bonus.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:13:00 - [23] Originally by: Sokratesz Tempest and muninn need +1 gun and more grid, muninn also could do with an extra mid in spite of a high, and a higher base locking range. That, or increase the tracking bonus from 7.5 to 15%/lvl to make it the uber closerange anti-support. Vargur - increase it's grid and swap the faloff bonus for a second damage bonus. if arty will get revamped (i still hope that as it really need it :P) 6 high on a mun will be op. imo most muninn actual problems are actually caused by arty that is a subpar long range weapon system. with better arties damagewise will be again ok (better than eagle ot "shorter" range but outranged by a good margin. the higher to mid will permit to fit an additional sensor booster for faster locking bit more targetting range or even to fit a tracking comp instead of a tracking enhancer Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
haq aan Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:23:00 - [24] To Ath Amon, I wish your idea about Typhoon to be a 5 torp/TP close range BS would come alive. But i see this good idea is more of a dream. So good to be true. About arties, Your idea is nice again.But that means a complete revision of Arties. Havent HP buff came alive due to whinning of instapops? HP buff introduced to counter alpha strike. And Abaddon has the alpha crown atm. Arties lack in every aspect (dps,tracking,range). Ammo size is another issue hurting them more.So there is no reason for 10 shot arties to exist. Many thanks for your interests about Minmatar. It just became strange to see in theese days. haq o/
Corstaad	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:28:00 - [25] Its kinda goofy but a natural progression of minny skills should make the typhoon 5/5. Its the king of ad hoc and something I'd like yo look forward towards. The AF class is completely borked and I wish they'd fix them.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:41:00 - [26] Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/03/2008 10:44:55 eheh i keep dreaming, as said 5/5 will be better than now, but you are going to mount 5missile/3turrets anyway (as a pest of even crapstrom will make a better gunboat) so to have 5/5 will be just to waste a ship bonus also to make it in 5/5 will mean that the ship will not get a second look for the next 15years so better to do the things well once and for all :P for arties i really think they need a total overhaul, no "mid boost" or "fixed". they where designed for a game that is not anymore like it was 4-5 years ago. alpha and instapopping is bad, but burst dmg can be a viable and interesting solution and a niche not really present ingame atm. we have to consider that even alpha gives you a marginal advantage for very few seconds then all get sort of "normalized" to dps. (it basically get the "bad" of instapop with a very very low combat efficency) 30s burst dmg will have not the instapop problem and can be helpfull to overcome the strong logistic/heavy boosting setups, still the drawback is that when the burst is done you have a long cool down timer. eheh give and take... i think that with something like that i can also accept an overal less dps (thing that i'm not doing for alpha :P) i will really like to see something like that... but in a way or another arties need to be totally reworked and their "role" addressed Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Malcom Micawber	Posted - 2008.03.10 10:58:00 - [27] Signed! Bigger mags for the arties and making the Vargur a decent mission ship would make me happy.
Zaran Darkstar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:05:00 - [28] 1 - TEMPEST A good cheap pvp BS ship for fleet use. - Pure DPS numbers mean nothing - T2 BS are supposed to offer something more don't you think? - Try to tank in an Abaddon while it fires its lasers :-( Could use a boost in CPU though. 2 Munnin I agree that its crap 3 Typhoon Typhoon is the Minmatar Dominix but it far far more versatile IMO. I run lvl 4 missions in it no problem with only 12M SP. 4 Artillery I agree It could use more magazines per reload . I understand that it must have some penalty for not using cap while firing but in laggy situations it horrible. And besides per se without the ship bonuses artilleries are the weakest weapon type compaired to the rest. Perhaps lower its rate of fire slightly and increase the magazine capacity accordingly. I repeat i have no problem with its general damage output its just that in laggy stituations the contant reload is unbarable. 5 Bellicose Yeah,it sucks 6 Wolf/Jaguar Assault ships of all races are broken in general. I think if the assault ships take a mass reduction they could go somewhere between a ceptor and a frigate in terms of speed. and become like heavier interceptors of the like. Better tank less speed interceptors. 7 tracking Disruptors Despite that TDs are not as popular as other EWAR boats.Only useful against turret ships.
Jeetah	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:24:00 - [29] Originally by: haq aan 4 - ARTILERY - 10 shot per gun is so horrible. I think this is one of the main problem of artillery cannons. It doesn't make too much sense that a t2 cruise launcher can fire 40 times while an 1400mm can only do so 10 times, doing roughly the same damage/volley (of course there are many factors affecting this, but I'm certain that effective DPS will always be higher with cruise missiles, due to tracking/range issues on artis). This was no problem if the fabled alpha strike of a tempest could potentionally blow up a T1 cruiser with one volley, in which case the damage being instantaneous would somewhat compensate for the low DPS on the long run (where long run starts after the 2nd volley). There's really not much to comment on the muninn. It was only good to give a basis to amarr whiners complaining about the inherently high EM armor resist on minmatar ships (not that anyone would ever armortank this ship). Other than that, its a joke. TP is another bad joke, bellicose is not worth the time to comment on, and as for the vargur, I still can't help but laugh about it. The whole concept is just plain wrong. Ridiculous fitting, laughable damage, hilarious tank, all this for 700m. Really a bargain. Terrible for PvE, worse for PvP.
Cpt Branko Surge. Night's Dawn	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:53:00 - [30] Originally by: Megan Maynard The boost patch is boosting minmatar u know. EMP ammo is now the MANDATORY ammo of choice for all autocannon boats. Less EMP resist in armor, less explosive resist in shield. You do realise EMP is the worst ammo for any non-hulltanked target now? It's like this (now): -PP is typically slightly better for shooting at shield tanks -Fusion is significantly better for shooting armour tanks -Barrage is way better for shooting armour tanks Post patch: -PP and EMP are both equally valid for shooting shield tanks -Fusion is significantly better for shooting armour tanks -Barrage is signifcantly better for shooting armour tanks Also, 90% of the time on <BS sized ships, Barrage is the mandatory ammo. Then again, all the T1 <BS sized ships got effectively nerfed with just one TD completely killing your falloff Nice Minmatar boost. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

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