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OK, what about Minmatar now?

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Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:12:00 - [61] Originally by: Kagura Nikon 1. LOL, since when gun cap usage is relevant when compared to tank cap usage? I also have Amarr BS V and not even in abaddon the guns cap usage is relevant when compared to tank usage. Tempest hard tank? LOOOOLLLL My abaddon uses about 55cap/s for its guns. (and yes i do have maxed cap skills and no i do not use conflagration) A large armor repairer t2 costs about 35cap/s. So in other words you are pretty much wrong. A heavy t2 cap booster cannot even sustain a single rep + mp with 2 x heat sink and tackling gear for example. A heavy t2 cap booster will sustain a dual rep + tackling gear on a pest. So how is this not tanking relevant? And how are you flying an abaddon and tempest and didn't notice this before? I think you are flat out lieing. And if its not a big thing how about we incur the same cap use on projectiles? I rather doubt that would be a good idea but according to you it doesn't make a difference right? Originally by: Kagura Nikon 4. wrong, its 3rd alpha, behind abaddon and maelstrom. Abaddon is teh suck in fleet no one cares about its alpha. And the maelstrom well its still minmatar, no? Tweak the pest as you see fit but stop behaving like other ships don't have their drawbacks built-in.
Lirt Ceratias Holboelli	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:27:00 - [62] Minmatar boost?????? You must be kidding me. They are the best in pvp and you whine? Stop with the whines you arrogant noobs. You are good and you want to be better???? Minmatar boost = total imbalance of the game.- RIP this thread. -------------------------------------------------- "Assumption is the Mother of Screw-Up"
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:37:00 - [63] I personally like the call for a Typhoon with even more missile hardpoints. Roughly every single torp Raven pilot would get one. --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:48:00 - [64] Originally by: Alek Row I see Munnin as a fleet ship, still trying to understand in which way drones and missiles are going to help when sniping Its versitile. This means in a small gang skirmish or in fleet fights you can put your arties on the main target, while shooting your missiles at a secondary target and send your drones on a tackler. How is this not versitile? I think its cool that it can do that instead of just being a one pony trick ship like eagle and zealot.. Point all guns on one target and shoot. I dont see a problem here, really. Originally by: Alek Row Web+TP IS BALANCED, one sucks, the other is awesome, pretty balanced, sould it be that way? Maybe not. Amarr recons? Dunno if you guys need a boost in that, with the new TDs they will be even better. Of course, they are not the solo-pawn mobile of the past, but why should they? The issue with amarr recons is that minmatar recons + caldari recons fill every useful role there is and there is no need for amarr recons nor gallente ones for that matter. Also add the fact that pilgrim is the only one without range bonus to its ew it becomes a crap ship that cant do well in gangs and cant solo either. A totally worthless ship. Yeah it does suck azz. Originally by: Alek Row You should explain yourself better, trick question, will the max possible dps of a rupture will increase if you increase 20% falloff? :-P AC dps is balanced in their fall off, NOT at their optimal. This means they do more dps in their optimal then youd think was fair. They do this because its a versitile weaponsystem that has dps vs range automatically built in opposed to pure optimal using weapon systems like lasers. This means, if you boost fall off ACs get a damage boost in their normal operating range. Its as simple as that and thats imbalanced. You already have fall off rigs that are borderline and I think that is enough tbh. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:54:00 - [65] Originally by: Ath Amon capless weapon is not influential for most long range ships (ok tachs are different thing and if you read my post i say that they should use less cap too, also lasers have other benefits that compensate cap usage)... an eagle doesnt have cap problems as much as a munin have not them too Capless weapons is an advantage even on a sniper hac. Zealot + mwd + 5 guns firing caps out pretty fast. A muninn can run its mwd more then 3min while the zealot caps out at around 1min. Thats a huge difference and yeah I think muninn needs a downside for that. I still stand at my statement. If you put muninns guns at same performance as zealots all drones bay needs to go, no more missiles and it needs an extra downside for capless guns. It has a cap advantage. Originally by: Ath Amon TP simply is not a real EW, not by a long shot, have its usefulness but cant be a primary race EW system, i don't say give minnie the EW og gimpnessdoom, i'd say give a sort of ew to minnie (maybe a sig radius?) that will be usefull whitout beind OP. But its commonly already agreed upon that minmatar recons are balanced. If you want to exchange TPs for "real" EW without removing web bonuses youll have to come up with an ew that sucks equally to keep it balanced. And the whining will continue and youll have solved nothing. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Ath Amon	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:23:00 - [66] Originally by: Lirt Minmatar boost?????? You must be kidding me. They are the best in pvp and you whine? Stop with the whines you arrogant noobs. You are good and you want to be better???? Minmatar boost = total imbalance of the game.- RIP this thread. i have some clue about someone that troll and behave likes an arrogant noob... not to say that this guy not even argumented its statement or tried to show why these proposal will make those ship OP about phoon with more missile = no more raven i disagree, raven will still have sick tank and gankage, will have more range and hit faster while phoon will be more suited for point blank and will have to trade gank for tank, will even offer a decent "solo" bs for missile users. and about AC, too much damage at short range? from AC? consider that lasers have more base dmg than AC and have huge optimal, blasters have very high dps and tracking on par with arties (also their cap usage is not that high), missiles have again more raw dps and no cap usage and higher optimal... so i fail to see all that uber dps, personally i think is fine as it is, as said bit more faloff will be nice to compensate webber boosts Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Ath Amon zealot will be useless if mun will get 1 less high for a mid slot and arty revamped? fine lets look at zeal problems and bring it on par with the new eagle and an eventually revamped mun... as for drones as said in other post for me you can remove it no prob. Yeah the problem is, like goumindong warned about, that +1 turret on eagle was a slight over boost. Thats more the issue tbh if anything. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.10 21:44:00 - [68] 1 - TEMPEST - People who say its quick/agile need to look again, its barely quicker or more agile than Hyperion/Mega. Its down on HP compared to other tier 2's with the worst layout for tanking. Give it a HP increase between armour and shields to the same as other tier 2. Increase its speed and improve its agility to similar level or slightly better as a Typhoon. 2 - MUNINN - Extra low is probably all thats needed specifically. 3 - TYPHOON - Doesn't need anything really, just as hard to fit as a Domi or Geddon. 5/5 would probably still be balanced due to tight fitting preventing overpowering setups. 4 - ARTILERY - Rather than change the amount of ammo they hold, increase the damage mod and slow the ROF for no change in DPS, but make the alpha advantage much better. 5 - TARGET PAINTERS - Probably the lowest value EW module in a already packed choice. Can boost them a hell of a lot and still wouldn't change much. 6 - BELLICOSE - Meh, missile bonus rather than med proj bonus so can truely get benifit from its TP bonus. 7 - WOLF / JAGUAR - I have no idea how CCP can ignore this for so long. FIX THE BONUSES! 8 - TRACKING DISRUPTORS - Optimal and Falloff should be seperate scripts. Should add falloff to tracking computers, its minor but the option should be there.
Arian Snow The Caldari Confederation G Thanks Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:27:00 - [69] Well I am pretty tired of buffs being applied to every ship and their mother, to CCP and apparently some of the players its all about buffs buffs buffs. There will allways be things to whine about and frankly alot of the whines sounds like theorycrafting rather than sound piloting experience. Established things needs to be tweaked not massively changed like adding turretslots or any slots for that matter. Except for Sarmauls Khanid Mark II ofc. I like things a wee bit unbalanced as it makes things more diverse, sometime reading posts here sounds like everybody wants uniformity. In pvp I fly Minmatar ships only. I am pretty happy with them. Perhaps their carebear missionship needs to be tweaked, I dont care much about those anyhow. However one thing thats irked me now that I am back from a lengthy break: They switched the ******* optimal/falloff bonuses on the Wolf and Jaguar nerfing my belowed Wolf, WTF. ----------------------------------------------- I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all!
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:28:00 - [70] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir 6 - BELLICOSE - Meh, missile bonus rather than med proj bonus so can truely get benifit from its TP bonus. No, the TP bonus is for ganking inties... it just needs fittings or something. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
TigerWoman	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:40:00 - [71] capless guns+ damage type versatility+ resistance balance favouring minmatar and still whining? you know if you are not pleased with your race you can train for another race? woho minmatar whining...
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:41:00 - [72] I agree with artillary clip size and jag / wolf (the others I dont fly so I cant comment) another thing that bothers me is that there is absolutely no difference between t1 scout ac's / arties and T2 arties aside from using t2 ammo and getting t2 bonuses. Compared to missiles and hybrids (I dont fly ammar so won't comment on them) which get to use t2 ammo, t2 bonuses and are superior to their t1 counterparts.
Alek Row Minmatar Silent Step	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:41:00 - [73] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Its versitile. This means in a small gang skirmish or in fleet fights you can put your arties on the main target, while shooting your missiles at a secondary target and send your drones on a tackler. How is this not versitile? I think its cool that it can do that instead of just being a one pony trick ship like eagle and zealot.. Point all guns on one target and shoot. I dont see a problem here, really. And I don't see a problem in trading a missile slot for other med or low, it would enhance it without entering other snipers domains. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer The issue with amarr recons is that minmatar recons + caldari recons fill every useful role there is and there is no need for amarr recons nor gallente ones for that matter. Also add the fact that pilgrim is the only one without range bonus to its ew it becomes a crap ship that cant do well in gangs and cant solo either. A totally worthless ship. Yeah it does suck azz. And the reason for TPs to not be some sort of "defense" EW like all other EW modules are? ohhh right, webs, and what's the EW bonus on T1 ships? Yippieeee, TPs. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer AC dps is balanced in their fall off, NOT at their optimal. This means they do more dps in their optimal then youd think was fair. They do this because its a versitile weaponsystem that has dps vs range automatically built in opposed to pure optimal using weapon systems like lasers. This means, if you boost fall off ACs get a damage boost in their normal operating range. Its as simple as that and thats imbalanced. You already have fall off rigs that are borderline and I think that is enough tbh. It was just to check if you really know what you're talking about tbh, I gave up on discussing the fact that there are too many problems when the only available counter is a rig with so many drawbacks... Maybe when they change TPs to be something useful the only counter available for Amarr is a 10% cap penalty rig, that will balance it out don't you think? Ohhh and you'll need 2 of those rigs On a more serious note, better wait and see what will really happen with the new TDs/ACs/Arties first. Alek Row
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 22:45:00 - [74] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir 1 - TEMPEST - People who say its quick/agile need to look again, its barely quicker or more agile than Hyperion/Mega. Its down on HP compared to other tier 2's with the worst layout for tanking. Give it a HP increase between armour and shields to the same as other tier 2. Increase its speed and improve its agility to similar level or slightly better as a Typhoon. 2 - MUNINN - Extra low is probably all thats needed specifically. 3 - TYPHOON - Doesn't need anything really, just as hard to fit as a Domi or Geddon. 5/5 would probably still be balanced due to tight fitting preventing overpowering setups. 4 - ARTILERY - Rather than change the amount of ammo they hold, increase the damage mod and slow the ROF for no change in DPS, but make the alpha advantage much better. 5 - TARGET PAINTERS - Probably the lowest value EW module in a already packed choice. Can boost them a hell of a lot and still wouldn't change much. 6 - BELLICOSE - Meh, missile bonus rather than med proj bonus so can truely get benifit from its TP bonus. 7 - WOLF / JAGUAR - I have no idea how CCP can ignore this for so long. FIX THE BONUSES! 8 - TRACKING DISRUPTORS - Optimal and Falloff should be seperate scripts. Should add falloff to tracking computers, its minor but the option should be there. 2 - extra low in exchange for what if I might ask? 5 - webs are VERY powerful. If you boost TP you need to nerf 40km webs because if you dont the minmatar recons will be totally imbalanced. Gallente and amarr ones already have problems keeping up. 8 - You cant seperate these with scripts because, obviously you dont know this, blasters have a fairly homogenous distribution between optimal and fall off, wich would mean TDs would be half as effective against blasters. They need to affect BOTH and AT THE SAME TIME. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Jvxta Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:19:00 - [75] I can't fly minnie that well so i won't discuss the ship specifics. Regarding ewar: TPs suck, uber webs are so good it becomes moot to whine about. Id glady trade the nos bonii on my pilgrim for TP and switch the TD for a webbing bonus even after the TD change, thats how strong that bonus is. I cant really understand that ppl get upset over the new TDs, you are actually whining that a turret specific ewar will disrupt your turrets :s the fact is that whenever facing a turret ship TD's should vastly outperform ecm and damps, do you feel that it has been that way earlier? Do you think that TDs will be more apreciated in a gang compared to ecm even after the buff? Yeah they should introduce a falloff increasing script for TC's thats only fair, how much this should be, I have no idea. I do know that if you put 1 eccm on an amarr ship and a fully specced bonused ship points an amarr jammer at you, lock break 'n you are duseless most of the time. Will really a non specced char with a unbonused TD force you into less than 10k for you to do any dmg in a cruiser sized ship? Otherwise as allways healthy discussion is allways healthy, only prob is that most ppl that speak of ships beeing underpowered rarely compare the problems that other races have, that goes for all racial whiners, would arty be better if you gave it a 30% alpha boost and downsized dps accordingly? //Jv
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:24:00 - [76] Originally by: Jvxta I cant really understand that ppl get upset over the new TDs, you are actually whining that a turret specific ewar will disrupt your turrets :s the fact is that whenever facing a turret ship TD's should vastly outperform ecm and damps, do you feel that it has been that way earlier? Do you think that TDs will be more apreciated in a gang compared to ecm even after the buff? //Jv Most people with reason are only fearing TDs being mounted on ships with extra mids. I do agree with the concern. They should nerf TDs but boost the bonus at the same time on the dedicated ships, just like they did with ECM back in the days when they nerfed ECM because everyone was fitting that in their mids. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:27:00 - [77] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Most people with reason are only fearing TDs being mounted on ships with extra mids. I do agree with the concern. They should nerf TDs but boost the bonus at the same time on the dedicated ships, just like they did with ECM back in the days when they nerfed ECM because everyone was fitting that in their mids. They should also add falloff to the optimal script of TC's and TE's. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:28:00 - [78] BTW, can you pick a thread and stick with it? It's hard to bounce everywhere looking for you. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Jvxta Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:29:00 - [79] Since amarr basically never has any free midslots on their ships i guess I cant comment on that. As long as the dedicated ships work as intended its fine by me, same goes for damps tbh. But can anyone honestly say that they would switch long range webs for TDs? Also all modules should have some use even on non dedicated ships, lest every setup gets moulded too much by ccp who cant plan for every instance, be it that its not great most of the time. //Jv
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:29:00 - [80] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Most people with reason are only fearing TDs being mounted on ships with extra mids. I do agree with the concern. They should nerf TDs but boost the bonus at the same time on the dedicated ships, just like they did with ECM back in the days when they nerfed ECM because everyone was fitting that in their mids. They should also add falloff to the optimal script of TC's and TE's. -Liang No its OP for ACs and you know why liang. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:30:00 - [81] Originally by: Liang Nuren BTW, can you pick a thread and stick with it? It's hard to bounce everywhere looking for you. -Liang Not my fault people post all over the place about the same thing. I gotta go lecture peeps in both forum sections i guess. to the forum mobile -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:33:00 - [82] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No its OP for ACs and you know why liang. Its not OP for AC's because they have naturally lower DPS than everyone else. Also, using the Vaga as the poster child for "uber long ranged AC's" is a bit silly. Its like complaining that a Range bonused Zealot can fire beyond scram range. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:36:00 - [83] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/03/2008 23:36:22 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No its OP for ACs and you know why liang. Its not OP for AC's because they have naturally lower DPS than everyone else. -Liang That is to balance the zero cap use, damage type selection and the easy fittings. There is nothing wrong with ACs liang. They are different and if you dont like them maybe you trained the wrong race. People sound like they should have trained gallente or amarr, all ive heard from minmatar is "MORE GANG MORE GANK". You conveniently disregard ALL the huge advantages minmatar have and demand equal gank on every ship. Its a bit over the edge. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Xofii	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:36:00 - [84] If you can dictate range then range is a powerful thing to have, if your slow as a turtle, then high med range isnt as important.
Aeo IV Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:39:00 - [85] Quote: I cant find a word how pathetic it is in laggy fleet blobs or in missions. Neither Abaddon nor Rokh pilot can understand this. Yeah, you know, cause us Amarrians with our super powerful lasers that do like a billion omni damage are so unable to understand what it's like to have a crap turret on our BSes.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.10 23:41:00 - [86] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 10/03/2008 22:45:36 2 - extra low in exchange for what if I might ask? 5 - webs are VERY powerful. If you boost TP you need to nerf 40km webs because if you dont the minmatar recons will be totally imbalanced. Gallente and amarr ones already have problems keeping up. 8 - You cant seperate these with scripts because, obviously you dont know this, blasters have a fairly homogenous distribution between optimal and fall off, wich would mean TDs would be half as effective against blasters. They need to affect BOTH and AT THE SAME TIME or they wont affect all turrets equally. 2 - In return of not sucking as a rubbish armour tanker and a worse sniper than a Zealot or Eagle. Its a minor change for sniping, allowing for a extra TE. For AC (in which you get practically no benifit from one of your HAC bonuses) you can actually armour tank better than a Vaga... which sucks at armour tanking. 5 - Maybe you couldn't tell by my "wouldn't change much" I don't see any point trying to just "boost" TP without changing the mechanics. Whatever happens, unless they somehow become defensive then minmatar recons are the only race without a defensive EW so must tank somehow, typically its a mix of speed/shields and range control. If you want TP's and Web you have to lose something just fitting it, isn't that enough? 8 - TD's with optimal script hurt blasters pleanty. TD don't NEED to effect both at the same time to hurt them, don't go down the "everything has to be equal to be balanced" road, its a bad arguement and road to go down.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:00:00 - [87] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer That is to balance the zero cap use, damage type selection and the easy fittings. There is nothing wrong with ACs liang. They are different and if you dont like them maybe you trained the wrong race. People sound like they should have trained gallente or amarr, all ive heard from minmatar is "MORE GANG MORE GANK". You conveniently disregard ALL the huge advantages minmatar have and demand equal gank on every ship. Its a bit over the edge. You conveniently make more to-do than you should out of "zero cap use". Try carrying ammo around in that cargo hold of yours. If you don't like your high cap use, maybe YOU trained the wrong race (whereas I have trained Gal/Min/Cald). Although the 700 DPS 220km pulse apoc is definitely reminding me that I should get an Amarr alt. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Trojanman190 Yultani Advanced Research and Reproduction	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:08:00 - [88] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer That is to balance the zero cap use, damage type selection and the easy fittings. There is nothing wrong with ACs liang. They are different and if you dont like them maybe you trained the wrong race. People sound like they should have trained gallente or amarr, all ive heard from minmatar is "MORE GANG MORE GANK". You conveniently disregard ALL the huge advantages minmatar have and demand equal gank on every ship. Its a bit over the edge. You conveniently make more to-do than you should out of "zero cap use". Try carrying ammo around in that cargo hold of yours. If you don't like your high cap use, maybe YOU trained the wrong race (whereas I have trained Gal/Min/Cald). Although the 700 DPS 220km pulse apoc is definitely reminding me that I should get an Amarr alt. -Liang Where are you getting 220km with pulse? a 10% bonnus puts scorch at 90km optimal and the actual bonus is 7.5%. Its still epic but you will only be hitting that far away with tachs.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:16:00 - [89] Originally by: Trojanman190 Where are you getting 220km with pulse? a 10% bonnus puts scorch at 90km optimal and the actual bonus is 7.5%. Its still epic but you will only be hitting that far away with tachs. It will be trivial to get 150km with MP II + Scorch. Adding in that optimal rigs don't stack ... -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 00:33:00 - [90] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 11/03/2008 00:42:12 Originally by: Liang Nuren Although the 700 DPS 220km pulse apoc is definitely reminding me that I should get an Amarr alt. Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Trojanman190 Where are you getting 220km with pulse? a 10% bonnus puts scorch at 90km optimal and the actual bonus is 7.5%. Its still epic but you will only be hitting that far away with tachs. It will be trivial to get 150km with MP II + Scorch. Adding in that optimal rigs don't stack ... -Liang Mhh. Can i see a fitting? I'll test it on sisi tommorrow but ad hoc i don't believe that. Apart from that 150 is still nowhere near 220. And well you won't get anywhere near 700dps on scorch with an apoc anyway. I remember you didn't have such a hefty bias a few months earlier. What happened? Edit: and really for someone who flies 3/4 races - what is so scaring about having an amarr alt? Answer me please: why did you of all races not train amarr up to now?

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