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Why aren't Capital Ships Allowed in Empire?

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Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Stern Maxwell on 09/03/2008 22:18:40 Text from Leviathan description, "Citizens of the State, rejoice! Today, a great milestone has been achieved by our glorious leaders. A stepping stone in the grand story of our empire has been traversed. Our individual fears may be quietened; the safety of our great nation has been secured." What Empire? The Caldari Empire, who is so proud of their Titan doesn't allow it to grace the presence of Sobaseki, Jita, or New Caldari? They claim it is for the saftey of the Caldari nation, but it can't defend Caldari space! I could go quoting Cap Ship descriptions and how their Empire's are so proud to have such ships, but, apparently they are not. These ships are not welcome in any of the Imperial space that designed them. Why not? I don't see any imbalance issue at all, war decs are completely legal, why can't warring corp's in Empire fight with cap's, why should they be forced into low security. How about production, why can't these ships be built in high security? Why limit them to mega corp's and the 0.0 Alliances they belong to (the only people who can survive in 0.0), why can't an Independent 50 man Empire Corp have a Carrier as a flagship, or even a Rorqual for indy corps? It costs more to maintain a POS in Empire, with lower benefit's. Before people go cry carebear, or whatever, this is a PvP aspect for Empire space, POS warfare in Empire is probably a lot more difficult, and uncommon as it stands. Introduction of Cap use in Empire would give legal Corp Warfare a significant boost, I hardly see anyone get shot in Empire as is, maybe once a week. What about an upstart Alliance who wants to claim a chunk of 0.0 for itself, how would it manage this without cap ships these days? Hardly seems possible imo. I can imagine fleets of equal size, but the Empire based one being crushed simply by the cap using fleets of 0.0. In this matter also allowing carriers to traverse star gates, a providence freighter is larger than a Thanatos and has significantly more volume than any carrier yet it can travel gate to gate at will. What sense does this make? All it tells me is that mechanics are wrong. EVE is usually very good at keeping numbers proportional, but fails miserably here. Also apon checking every single dreadnought has either the same volume, or less than a providence freighter. Keeping jump drives a part of cap ships is important too though. So what say you General Discussion forum viewers? ___________________________________________
Kylegar Caldari Dawn of Fire Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:20:00 - [2] If you let capital ships into Empire, then Chribba will be able to bring his Veldnaught into Jita, Mine everything in Jita, and sell it for rock-bottom prices, blowing out the mineral market, and putting all those Jita trade-clones on the streets, asking for handouts because they couldnt sell anything. THINK OF THE JITA TRADE ALTS!!! -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
Barbens Black Lotus Foundation Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Kylegar If you let capital ships into Empire, then Chribba will be able to bring his Veldnaught into Jita, Mine everything in Jita, and sell it for rock-bottom prices, blowing out the mineral market, and putting all those Jita trade-clones on the streets, asking for handouts because they couldnt sell anything. THINK OF THE JITA TRADE ALTS!!! There are no belts in Jita anymore... :) BaRbEnS
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:23:00 - [4] I.. I don't know what to say really. Every fibre of my body repels the idea, but I can't put that feeling into any coherent sentence. However, I have a feeling it's to do with risk verses reward. If you want the rewards inherent in owning and operating capital ships, you take the risk of low sec and 0.0 to get it. Pretty simple I guess. --- MOZO
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:29:00 - [5] ITT someone that wants to build a Titan, and doomsday jita 4-4
Thenoran Caldari The People's Liberation Army	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:29:00 - [6] Capitals in Jita...the poor poor kittens... ------------------------ Mining over 4000m3 per cycle...with a Rokh
Kylegar Caldari Dawn of Fire Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:30:00 - [7] Edited by: Kylegar on 09/03/2008 22:30:19 Originally by: Barbens Originally by: Kylegar If you let capital ships into Empire, then Chribba will be able to bring his Veldnaught into Jita, Mine everything in Jita, and sell it for rock-bottom prices, blowing out the mineral market, and putting all those Jita trade-clones on the streets, asking for handouts because they couldnt sell anything. THINK OF THE JITA TRADE ALTS!!! There are no belts in Jita anymore... :) BaRbEnS Thats not the point. The point is, Chribba will do it! EDIT: and I didn't say he was going to mine asteroids... -- Originally by: CCP Ginger No sex changes.
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:30:00 - [8] Originally by: Asestorian I.. I don't know what to say really. Every fibre of my body repels the idea, but I can't put that feeling into any coherent sentence. However, I have a feeling it's to do with risk verses reward. If you want the rewards inherent in owning and operating capital ships, you take the risk of low sec and 0.0 to get it. Pretty simple I guess. How about if I added, I intended to write that only members of a player corp could un-dock with one, a simple war declaration removes any of the "safety" of concord. (as for super caps that can't dock I don't know at the moment) ___________________________________________
FluterEx	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:37:00 - [9] I just imagine the goons in jita suicide-ganking with a couple oft Titans fitted with DD¦s. and that right in front of a station.
Chian XinLian Darwin's Contraptions	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:38:00 - [10] Said Empires do have more than just CONCORD 'protected' high-security space. Every low-security system is claimed by one faction. If you have great firepower in your fleet - do you keep it in heart of your region, or at borders where possible hostile incursion happens?
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:40:00 - [11] Edited by: Stern Maxwell on 09/03/2008 22:42:17 Originally by: Chian XinLian Said Empires do have more than just CONCORD 'protected' high-security space. Every low-security system is claimed by one faction. If you have great firepower in your fleet - do you keep it in heart of your region, or at borders where possible hostile incursion happens? You can't fire the Titan super weapon outside of 0.0, so I guess that they are not at the Empire's borders, are they. Edit, I'll add the value of defending valuable property, just go play any game like Axis and Allies, play Germany and leave Berlin undefended and see what happens, or play Japan and leave the bulk of your forces far from your capital and watch how fast they fall. Outside of gaming look at what the Russians did during WWII also, they had a single defensive line which the Germans broke through and didn't stop till they reached Moscow, putting your troops on the border is never the way to keep yourself safe, it can be effective, but if it fails, then you lose everything. ___________________________________________
Lithalnas Amarr Headcrabs	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:41:00 - [12] This way eve endgame isnt owning a titan in high sec, first for those foolish enough to think that carriers and dreads are eves endgame, well then they should stay in low sec so people actualy go there just to fly their endgame. For those who understand that cap ships are not solo pwnmobiles that are used for lvl 4s, then the lack of cap ships creates two things first those in empire get fairer fights, no moms hot droped on you ever. Second if you lack the funds you can pvp in high sec and not have to have billions of isk in ships just to be able to kill someones carrier that you found mining in a belt. ------------- fixed for greater eve content
Twin blade Minmatar The Triangle Exa Nation	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:45:00 - [13] I can see it now titan in jita DD 700+ pods out side jita 4-4. Death is great rember where all dying to get there.
Barbens Black Lotus Foundation Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:46:00 - [14] Originally by: Kylegar Edited by: Kylegar on 09/03/2008 22:30:19 Originally by: Barbens Originally by: Kylegar If you let capital ships into Empire, then Chribba will be able to bring his Veldnaught into Jita, Mine everything in Jita, and sell it for rock-bottom prices, blowing out the mineral market, and putting all those Jita trade-clones on the streets, asking for handouts because they couldnt sell anything. THINK OF THE JITA TRADE ALTS!!! There are no belts in Jita anymore... :) BaRbEnS Thats not the point. The point is, Chribba will do it! EDIT: and I didn't say he was going to mine asteroids... Sure looks like ya said it to me.... "then Chribba will be able to bring his Veldnaught into Jita, Mine everything in Jita, and sell it for rock-bottom prices, blowing out the mineral market" BaRbEnS
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Lithalnas This way eve endgame isnt owning a titan in high sec, first for those foolish enough to think that carriers and dreads are eves endgame, well then they should stay in low sec so people actualy go there just to fly their endgame. For those who understand that cap ships are not solo pwnmobiles that are used for lvl 4s, then the lack of cap ships creates two things first those in empire get fairer fights, no moms hot droped on you ever. Second if you lack the funds you can pvp in high sec and not have to have billions of isk in ships just to be able to kill someones carrier that you found mining in a belt. And to address this, just look at what a 0.0 Alliance, Goonswarm, was able to pull off in Empire space. Staying in Empire doesn't make you any safer because of smaller PvP ships, a massive Alliance could always come knocking without a war dec and completely obliterate smaller corps. if they war dec, then its all over for said Empire corps. ___________________________________________
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Twin blade I can see it now titan in jita DD 700+ pods out side jita 4-4. So he blows 700 pods, and then loses a 50+b ship... why does everyone assume this will happen? ___________________________________________
Aurix Lexico Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:49:00 - [17] Why? What would you do with a dread in high sec? a titan? you talk about wanting to protect small empire corps that can't survive in 0.0, but then you want to bring carriers and motherships into high sec?
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:50:00 - [18] Roleplay reason: Because the empire factions that control highsec do not allow non-faction aligned CAPITAL ships to operate in their sovereign space (the operative word being "capital") Real reason: they would be massively overpowered, at least if a small corp gets wardec'd by a large pvp corp, the best they are going to bring is battleships and commandships, imagine being in a 20 man corp and being wardec'd by a corp with 15 carriers, that would be the definition of pain. - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Aurix Lexico Why? What would you do with a dread in high sec? a titan? you talk about wanting to protect small empire corps that can't survive in 0.0, but then you want to bring carriers and motherships into high sec? I never said protect, I said to enhance inter Corp warfare in Empire, and add POS warfare, in Empire. Lvl 4 mission runners fly ships almost as valuable as a carrier now anyway. ___________________________________________
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 22:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Alski Roleplay reason: Because the empire factions that control highsec do not allow non-faction aligned CAPITAL ships to operate in their sovereign space (the operative word being "capital") Real reason: they would be massively overpowered, at least if a small corp gets wardec'd by a large pvp corp, the best they are going to bring is battleships and commandships, imagine being in a 20 man corp and being wardec'd by a corp with 15 carriers, that would be the definition of pain. Roleplay reason makes more sense than any other reason so far, as for a large PvP corp declaring war on a small corp, wouldn't that already be extremely painful anyway? ___________________________________________
Aurix Lexico Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Aurix Lexico Why? What would you do with a dread in high sec? a titan? you talk about wanting to protect small empire corps that can't survive in 0.0, but then you want to bring carriers and motherships into high sec? I never said protect, I said to enhance inter Corp warfare in Empire, and add POS warfare, in Empire. Lvl 4 mission runners fly ships almost as valuable as a carrier now anyway. There is already POS warfare in empire, and adding capitals in empire isn't going to enhance inter corp warfare in empire, it would just *** it up some more.
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:01:00 - [22] Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Alski Roleplay reason: Because the empire factions that control highsec do not allow non-faction aligned CAPITAL ships to operate in their sovereign space (the operative word being "capital") Real reason: they would be massively overpowered, at least if a small corp gets wardec'd by a large pvp corp, the best they are going to bring is battleships and commandships, imagine being in a 20 man corp and being wardec'd by a corp with 15 carriers, that would be the definition of pain. Roleplay reason makes more sense than any other reason so far, as for a large PvP corp declaring war on a small corp, wouldn't that already be extremely painful anyway? It would, and is, but the very least you can do is pop the odd battleship of theirs, even if you suicide on one with 10 cruisers and lose all of em, you'd still at least be fighting back, with even a few carriers remote repping you'd never have a chance, and the DPS output of the carriers would make an already suicideal tactic even more so, plus there'd be almost no way of killing even a small spider tanking group of carriers. I think though that there are far more reasons than this, to pick just anouther, if you had huge empire corps wardecing other huge empire corps and going at it with large BS fleets, carriers, dreads, and seigeing pos's and such, what you've basicley got it all of 0.0 combat moved into empire space with none of the advantages of actuley being in 0.0 - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Tellenta Gallente White-Noise	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:01:00 - [23] Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Alski Roleplay reason: Because the empire factions that control highsec do not allow non-faction aligned CAPITAL ships to operate in their sovereign space (the operative word being "capital") Real reason: they would be massively overpowered, at least if a small corp gets wardec'd by a large pvp corp, the best they are going to bring is battleships and commandships, imagine being in a 20 man corp and being wardec'd by a corp with 15 carriers, that would be the definition of pain. Roleplay reason makes more sense than any other reason so far, as for a large PvP corp declaring war on a small corp, wouldn't that already be extremely painful anyway? maybe I'm missing the added benefit that would come from having capital ships in empire. Any way I look at it I just see the standard griefer corps getting a new toy to sit outside of station to grief newer players that can't counter a carrier. The only thing I could possibly see is so killing highsec POS's doesn't take as long.
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:02:00 - [24] Originally by: Aurix Lexico Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Aurix Lexico Why? What would you do with a dread in high sec? a titan? you talk about wanting to protect small empire corps that can't survive in 0.0, but then you want to bring carriers and motherships into high sec? I never said protect, I said to enhance inter Corp warfare in Empire, and add POS warfare, in Empire. Lvl 4 mission runners fly ships almost as valuable as a carrier now anyway. There is already POS warfare in empire, and adding capitals in empire isn't going to enhance inter corp warfare in empire, it would just * it up some more. Please, I'm looking for reason, why would it it up more? Explain and I'd be more inclined to understand your position. ** it up how? Make it like 0.0? jk ___________________________________________
FluterEx	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:03:00 - [25] Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Twin blade I can see it now titan in jita DD 700+ pods out side jita 4-4. So he blows 700 pods, and then loses a 50+b ship... why does everyone assume this will happen? Give the goons the option to this and they will do it just for their own entertainment.
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Alski Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Alski Roleplay reason: Because the empire factions that control highsec do not allow non-faction aligned CAPITAL ships to operate in their sovereign space (the operative word being "capital") Real reason: they would be massively overpowered, at least if a small corp gets wardec'd by a large pvp corp, the best they are going to bring is battleships and commandships, imagine being in a 20 man corp and being wardec'd by a corp with 15 carriers, that would be the definition of pain. Roleplay reason makes more sense than any other reason so far, as for a large PvP corp declaring war on a small corp, wouldn't that already be extremely painful anyway? It would, and is, but the very least you can do is pop the odd battleship of theirs, even if you suicide on one with 10 cruisers and lose all of em, you'd still at least be fighting back, with even a few carriers remote repping you'd never have a chance, and the DPS output of the carriers would make an already suicideal tactic even more so, plus there'd be almost no way of killing even a small spider tanking group of carriers. I think though that there are far more reasons than this, to pick just anouther, if you had huge empire corps wardecing other huge empire corps and going at it with large BS fleets, carriers, dreads, and seigeing pos's and such, what you've basicley got it all of 0.0 combat moved into empire space with none of the advantages of actuley being in 0.0 The advantages imo are smaller fights, and no NBSI policy, I must be alone in my thoughts that smaller fights would be more fun than the blob warfare everyone describes that 0.0 consists of. ___________________________________________
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:06:00 - [27] Yes why don't the empires let city sized war machines owned by 3RD PARTIES in their space.... Can't imagine why. Maybe the same reason they don't let cynos? Invasion fleet anyone? --------------------------------- Oh noes! Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:08:00 - [28] Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Aurix Lexico Originally by: Stern Maxwell Originally by: Aurix Lexico Why? What would you do with a dread in high sec? a titan? you talk about wanting to protect small empire corps that can't survive in 0.0, but then you want to bring carriers and motherships into high sec? I never said protect, I said to enhance inter Corp warfare in Empire, and add POS warfare, in Empire. Lvl 4 mission runners fly ships almost as valuable as a carrier now anyway. There is already POS warfare in empire, and adding capitals in empire isn't going to enhance inter corp warfare in empire, it would just * it up some more. Please, I'm looking for reason, why would it it up more? Explain and I'd be more inclined to understand your position. ** it up how? Make it like 0.0? jk I'd guess what he means is its already easy enouth for a strong pvp corp to wardec a cearbear corp that does research and such in highsec pos's, and then blow the crap out of all those pos's and the prints contained within, its very hard for a small empire corp to defend against those kinds of attack, makeing it easyier for the wardec corp doesent make much sence. Now you could say "mabey your pos should be better defended" and you'd be right, or "mabey you should have gotten more numbers" or "hire a merc corp" but even with all that your odds will be even at best, a good pvp corp has it easy enouth vs. a cearbear corp, why make it easier? - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.
Asestorian Domination. Scorched Earth.	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Stern Maxwell The advantages imo are smaller fights, and no NBSI policy, I must be alone in my thoughts that smaller fights would be more fun than the blob warfare everyone describes that 0.0 consists of. No, you're not alone, but smaller fights are also really difficult to have when Capital ships are involved. People often move away from 0.0 and back into empire to declare wars and things to get away from Capitals. Capitals being present on the battlefield either stops fights completely, because you don't have the numbers to take them on effectively, or forces you to get more numbers and Capitals yourself. Why is 0.0 a big blob fest of Capitals? Because it's the most effective. There is no reason at all the same wouldn't end up happening in empire should Capitals be introduced there. --- MOZO
Alski Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 23:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Stern Maxwell The advantages imo are smaller fights, and no NBSI policy, I must be alone in my thoughts that smaller fights would be more fun than the blob warfare everyone describes that 0.0 consists of. Exactley, people who want smaller, fairer fights and no blobs stay in empire for exactley that reason - if you bring a small gang to any 0.0 alliance worth their name, and you **** us off, we will blob the crap out of you, bubble camp you in a system, and hotdrop carriers on your ass, because your in our space and we don't want you there If you had carriers in highsec, it would promote exactley the things that people stay in empire to get away from, corps would join countless new empire alliances for mutual protection, and they would blob because they would have no other choice. - (combat) Patch belonging to CCP hits your drones, wrecking their liberty and freedom.

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