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Riaz Qaadir
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:24:00 -
[1]
Ok everyone keeps mentioning it... well here it is as people have been flying on SISI:
8x Megapulse T2 [scorch]. 4x Whatever. 3x HS T2, 3x TE T2, 1x Whatever. 3x Optimal rigs.
Pleanty of fitting so could do MWD + cap booster + 2x sensor bosoter, or mwd + 3 sensor booster ect ect.
Stats are: DPS: 584 Volley: 2532 Optimal: 123km Falloff: 10km Tracking: 0.039540 (with 400 sig)
Compare this to specialist sniper HACs. Muninn: 5x 720mm T2 (Tremor). MWD, 2x Sensor Booster. 3x Gyro T2, 2x TE T2. 2x Misc (Not got the PG for optimal rigs.)
Stats are: DPS: 223 Volley: 1448 Optimal: 105km Falloff: 21.875km Tracking: 0.011206 (with 125 sig)
With the signature factor included the megapulse Apoc actually has better tracking, not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper.
New Eagle: 5x 250mm Rail T2 (Spike) MWD, 2x TC T2, 2x SB T2 3x MFS T2, RCU T2 2x whatever (Not got the PG for optimal rigs.)
Stats are: DPS: 150 Volley: 528 Optimal: 189km Falloff: 25km Tracking: 0.007188 (with 125 sig)
Here the best HAC sniper can outrange the Apoc, yet it has worse tracking still and it would take nearly 4 of them to do the DPS and Volley damage of 1 Apoc.
So rather than field 4 Eagles you could field Apocs and a Logistics with tracking links. This combination of Apoc + logistic with tracking links is what gives the 200km optimal megapulse.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:27:00 -
[2]
BS >>> Everything
What else is new? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:28:00 -
[3]
Quote: not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper.
New apoc *is* a sniper. Not surprising a sniper BS outranges sniper cruisers.
The question is, how does it compare to the Rokh?
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Riaz Qaadir
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Posted - 2008.03.11 01:38:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 11/03/2008 01:38:34
Originally by: Ulstan
Quote: not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper.
New apoc *is* a sniper. Not surprising a sniper BS outranges sniper cruisers.
The question is, how does it compare to the Rokh?
Maybe you missed the part where this is with close range weapons and not long range weapons. No problem with it out ranging the smaller sized weapons.... but all of more range, dps, volley and TRACKING is too much.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:18:00 -
[5]
Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered.
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Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Goumindong Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered.
Have you got a link to a dev saying they're removing it?
-Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:28:00 -
[7]
No, but since all other rigs are stack-nerfed together with the corresponding modules not only with themselves, it IS a bug, and sooner or later it will get "fixed". Probably much later, probably in this very patch, under "exploit fixes". You never know.
1|2|3|4|5. |
Liang Nuren
Black Sea Industries Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:34:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 02:35:38
Originally by: Akita T No, but since all other rigs are stack-nerfed together with the corresponding modules not only with themselves, it IS a bug, and sooner or later it will get "fixed". Probably much later, probably in this very patch, under "exploit fixes". You never know.
Probably gives greater probability towards an event happening than not. I think you were looking for "maybe".
I dunno, I'm kinda looking forward to the WTFBBQ Amarr pwnage, so that I can drink the sweet tears of their crying when it gets nerfed :-)
Though, it isn't as though the Apoc isn't going to be OP anyway... :)
-Liang
Ed: I point out the probably thing (politely) because I know that English isn't your first language and you thus may not realize it, and also because the statements are contradictory. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance. |
Jack Jombardo
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.03.11 02:59:00 -
[9]
Even befor the patch Beam-Apoc >>>> sniper Cruiser
hell, Medium vis Largh weapons. They MUST have more range.
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Wu Jiun
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:04:00 -
[10]
Some people just hate amarr and liked the old status quo. Well maybe its just time for adapt and die or do what we've been told a 1000 times: train another race?
No better pretend to not care at all but breath fire and brimstone in every possible thread.
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Last Wolf
Templars of Space
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Posted - 2008.03.11 03:10:00 -
[11]
sooo whats the optimal with conflag?
Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.11 04:43:00 -
[12]
I have been reliably informed that combat in EVE takes place at three ranges, web range, scramble range, and fleet range. I have also been repeatedly informed that there is no mid-range combat it EVE.
Therefore it simply can't matter what damage you can do between scramble and fleet range. Prove me wrong /S&M/
On a serious note I'm reserving judgment, it doesn't appear to be overpowered, though I haven't yet trained up t2 large pulses so I don't have any "hands-on" experience with the ship.
Looking at the stats I really don't see 584DPS from a BS, even at 123km, as the best use for an Amarrian pilot in gang. It's funny and it certainly has a few situations where it can make good use of it's bonus with pulses, but it's basically a gimmick, in the majority of engagements you'd probably be far better off with an Abaddon or Geddon.
It could be fun to dump a load of them on an enemy fleet at 120km if the opportunity arises, but then it's also fun to snipe people from 249km in a bunch of Rokhs but we don't see everyone doing it. In the end it will probably be used for exactly what it is intended for, fleet work with beams, and if it's superior to the mega in this regard then it's about darn time one of the "long-range" races got the advantage in this regard over the "short-range" races. The megathron should not be the be all and end all of battleship combat.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.11 05:33:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Goumindong Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered.
Have you got a link to a dev saying they're removing it?
-Liang
Bug reports have been attached to defects.
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:35:00 -
[14]
Why would you compare HAC's to Battleships? Its like comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts.
Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I usually close my eyes and just beg, out loud added with a lot of squealing.
I swear it helps.
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Wideen
Eon Project Legion of Honor
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Posted - 2008.03.11 06:46:00 -
[15]
They haven't even implemented the patch yet and people are already whining... pretty amazing!
To those that whine; have you ever tried fitting an apoc with anything decent? 8x MP II will leave little for anything remotely resembling a tank I'm sure, so I like this range bonus. Even with a rack of the largest guns (t2) the dmg isn't even impressive.
Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 08:55:00 -
[16]
Why would someone put 6 optimal mods, even with 3 bugged ones, on a apoc?
I mean, 120km range due to the possibly bugged stacking is pretty useless. It has worse tracking than hac snipers, and worse weapon sig so even if you do track a enemy, you have a higher chance of missed shots.
What use is a paper apoc shooting at 120km when snipers need 150-160km+ (and add in aligning distances on top).
Im sorry, I just dont see how practical this is. Next you will be telling us the rokh is overpowered because it can also fire antimatter at 120km in a gimmik setup. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 08:55:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/03/2008 08:54:56 Doublepost --
Billion Isk Mission |
X99 Z990
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Posted - 2008.03.11 09:34:00 -
[18]
Rokh can also do similar effect with rails and non tracking penalized ammo, probably could shove tracking rigs rather than optimal.
Nothing new from the apoc here. People will often use specialist hacs for maneuverability ect. Not to menchion fast locking.
I dont think apocs going to be fitted for megapulse sniping very often but yea, it can make good effect from mega pulses at long range.
Too few amarr ships have range bonuses, their guns are touted as best mid range ect weapons. But when other ships get optimal/missile speed ect bonuses it certainly competes in lasers ideal optimal.
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2008.03.11 10:20:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Xequecal on 11/03/2008 10:24:12 Edited by: Xequecal on 11/03/2008 10:20:10
Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, 120km range due to the possibly bugged stacking is pretty useless. It has worse tracking than hac snipers, and worse weapon sig so even if you do track a enemy, you have a higher chance of missed shots.
Uhm, no.
Base tracking on Mega Pulse Laser II: 0.03375
Base tracking on 250mm Railgun II: 0.023 Base tracking on 720mm Artillery II: 0.022 Base tracking on Heavy Beam Laser II: 0.033
Quote: What use is a paper megapulse apoc shooting at 120km when snipers need 150-160km+ (and add in aligning distances on top). Tach Apocs are what snipers use. Not Megapulolse
Let's see.....it has better range, better tracking, and over double the damage of any medium gun sniper? 600 DPS is a lot. You can run with three sensor boosters, (1x targeting range, 2x lock time) deploy a large bubble on the gate, then sit 100km off the gate and enjoy risk-free ganking of anything that comes through.
Quote: Im sorry, I just dont see how practical this is. Next you will be telling us the rokh is overpowered because it can also fire antimatter at 120km in a gimmik setup.
It has 3.5x the tracking of a 425mm II Rokh shooting antimatter, 20km more range, higher DPS, and uses less cap. It's also much easier to fit, if you want to run a MWD, 8x 425mm II, and three weapon rigs on the Rokh you will need two reactor controls.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Xequecal Inaccurate info
Medium sized weapons have a different weapon sig. E.G Heavy Beam II has weapon sig of 125. Megapuse has sig of 400. Thus megapuse is pretty poor tracking. Pop these into the tracking calculator and suddenly your relise your argument is moot.
There is a reason why snipers are 150km+. I strongly suggest you fly some sniping ships in real life pvp. 100-120km snipers are useless, just ask why t1 fitted snipers are so ineffective. --
Billion Isk Mission |
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X99 Z990
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:23:00 -
[21]
Thing about the rokh / hacs / beam fit.
If the enemy is at 150km they arent in alot of trouble.
Its a very specialized pulse setup that requires a full set of optimal rigs, alot of PG and such.
if a rokh used 3 tracking rigs rather than 3 optimal it could achieve similar results.
You are thinking too highly of the dps/tracking/optimal stats and not enough of actually execution the setup in a realistic enviroment. Its not at all overpowered. Good range/damage/tracking with pulses granted.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 11:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Originally by: Xequecal Inaccurate info
Medium sized weapons have a different weapon sig. E.G Heavy Beam II has weapon sig of 125. Megapuse has sig of 400. Thus megapuse is pretty poor tracking. Pop these into the tracking calculator and suddenly your relise your argument is moot.
There is a reason why snipers are 150km+. I strongly suggest you fly some sniping ships in real life pvp. 100-120km snipers are useless, just ask why t1 fitted snipers are so ineffective.
THIS
Thats also the reason why you dont see "anti-support" geddons in fleets (3x TE + scorch, range of around 80km nowadays). Because they wont hit anything. And thats the reason why 120km pulses are too useless - they wont hit ceptors anyways.
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Klavayne
Free Mercenaries Union Red Republic
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Posted - 2008.03.11 12:52:00 -
[23]
I'd like to also point out, in theory a cruise raven can match that damage at that range (yes it might take a while, but in 'theory') so its not like its totally overpowered at that range. Also, aren't amarr supposed to have the best damage at mid-range? At that range, the ship wont be that good in fleets when everyone else warps at 150km so beams will be used anyway. Fuss about nothing.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.03.11 13:06:00 -
[24]
And the problem is... lack of "mid range" in eve. Combat happens either sub-warp disruptor range (20-30km tops) or at sniping range (150+). Anything in between is dead range in which fights happen less than 0,1% of the time (of all my fights in TRI i can think off 2-3 engagements where i actually used longer scorch instead of 15+8km multi range).
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Msobe
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Posted - 2008.03.11 13:42:00 -
[25]
As lame as it is when people post fits packed with officer mods and T2 rigs then overload it all to prove that ship X is over powered . . . I don't care too much about fits exploiting a known bug to prove the new Apoc is. The difference is its possible for a lot of players to fly this fit - but unlike the silly EFT fits, this one won't be possible once they get around to fixing it.
Even sillier to rig a sniper BS and compare it to unrigged sniper HACs and then be surprised at the outcome.
Its true that large pulses out track med long range rails . . . but once the rigs are fixed, they won't out range them. The ship isn't the problem, the guns aren't the problem, the broken rigs are.
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Riaz Qaadir
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Posted - 2008.03.11 13:49:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 11/03/2008 13:54:49 Jesus some people can't read.
In my comparison I took into account signature (400 vs 125) and the large weapons are BETTER than the mediums whilst also having more range than everything but an Eagle.
So while its "bonused sniper" other ships that are "bonused sniper" can't offer ANYTHING better, not even tracking with a smaller size of weapon!
Cruise ravens damage doesn't hit instantly, a group of these things will destroy even a BS tanked with plates + EANM before it can align+warp or get back to the gate. I've been shot by one of them and it fecking hurts.... especially with the -em res to armour change.
Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship
If it is a bug (been around ages) and is fixed then things will be a lot better as you will no longer be able to out range and out track the specialized medium size weapon snipers
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Scout McAlt
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Posted - 2008.03.11 14:10:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:11:37 Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:10:57
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship
That was a sarcastic post the guy made as a joke. You really 100% beleive it?. 220km Megapulse. Lol. 400 sig guns vs cepters sig = instapwn. lol.
And if you beleive that, then also note that I can hit 249km with Antimatter in rokh blasters which pawns cepters, shuttles and even titans!
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Daelin Blackleaf
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:09:00 -
[28]
So your entire argument boils down to:
"I herd from this gai PulseApocs wer uber."
Flawless logic there. Do the math, come back and post hit chances against multiple ship classes, and then remember that it doesn't matter either way. HAC's are not typically the best tool for any job, their primary advantages are mobility and lock time and when you don't take those into account theres not a single HAC out there that isn't outperformed by something else.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:23:00 -
[29]
When the Rokh came out, there was a lot of whining about how overpowered it would be, with it being able to have 250km optimal.
Then... nothing happened. There's no Rokh fleets pwning things at 250km that I heard off.
This is just more of the same hysteria... ------------------------------------------
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Riaz Qaadir
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Posted - 2008.03.11 15:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Scout McAlt Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:11:37 Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:10:57
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship
That was a sarcastic post the guy made as a joke. You really 100% beleive it?. 220km Megapulse. Lol. 400 sig guns vs cepters sig = instapwn. lol.
And if you beleive that, then also note that I can hit 249km with Antimatter in rokh blasters which pawns cepters, shuttles and even titans!
Great troll.
1. He's serious, talk to him and go on SISI, he might even shoot you to demonstrate for you first hand.
2. Congrats at showing your lack of knowledge and maths. 400 sig with 4 times the tracking compared to 125 sig weapon is better (125 * 3.2 = 400). More range = low transversal = better effective tracking.
3. I've felt it to believe it.
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf So your entire argument boils down to:
"I herd from this gai PulseApocs wer uber."
Flawless logic there. Do the math, come back and post hit chances against multiple ship classes, and then remember that it doesn't matter either way. HAC's are not typically the best tool for any job, their primary advantages are mobility and lock time and when you don't take those into account theres not a single HAC out there that isn't outperformed by something else.
I have amarr BS 4 but not got t2 large weapons yet thanks, and done more than "heard it", i've helped test its performance and when your at 125km+ its tracking is real and totally outclasses the HAC anti-support snipers.
How about YOU do the math, i've clearly stated real setups and the accurate stats. If you can't work out how tracking factor = ((transversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 works thats not my problem.
Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend.
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