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Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:24:00 - [1] Ok everyone keeps mentioning it... well here it is as people have been flying on SISI: 8x Megapulse T2 [scorch]. 4x Whatever. 3x HS T2, 3x TE T2, 1x Whatever. 3x Optimal rigs. Pleanty of fitting so could do MWD + cap booster + 2x sensor bosoter, or mwd + 3 sensor booster ect ect. Stats are: DPS: 584 Volley: 2532 Optimal: 123km Falloff: 10km Tracking: 0.039540 (with 400 sig) Compare this to specialist sniper HACs. Muninn: 5x 720mm T2 (Tremor). MWD, 2x Sensor Booster. 3x Gyro T2, 2x TE T2. 2x Misc (Not got the PG for optimal rigs.) Stats are: DPS: 223 Volley: 1448 Optimal: 105km Falloff: 21.875km Tracking: 0.011206 (with 125 sig) With the signature factor included the megapulse Apoc actually has better tracking, not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper. New Eagle: 5x 250mm Rail T2 (Spike) MWD, 2x TC T2, 2x SB T2 3x MFS T2, RCU T2 2x whatever (Not got the PG for optimal rigs.) Stats are: DPS: 150 Volley: 528 Optimal: 189km Falloff: 25km Tracking: 0.007188 (with 125 sig) Here the best HAC sniper can outrange the Apoc, yet it has worse tracking still and it would take nearly 4 of them to do the DPS and Volley damage of 1 Apoc. So rather than field 4 Eagles you could field Apocs and a Logistics with tracking links. This combination of Apoc + logistic with tracking links is what gives the 200km optimal megapulse.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:27:00 - [2] BS >>> Everything What else is new? -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:28:00 - [3] Quote: not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper. New apoc is a sniper. Not surprising a sniper BS outranges sniper cruisers. The question is, how does it compare to the Rokh?
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 01:38:00 - [4] Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 11/03/2008 01:38:34 Originally by: Ulstan Quote: not only that but better: range, dps, volley than a specialised sniper. New apoc is a sniper. Not surprising a sniper BS outranges sniper cruisers. The question is, how does it compare to the Rokh? Maybe you missed the part where this is with close range weapons and not long range weapons. No problem with it out ranging the smaller sized weapons.... but all of more range, dps, volley and TRACKING is too much.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:18:00 - [5] Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:23:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered. Have you got a link to a dev saying they're removing it? -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:28:00 - [7] No, but since all other rigs are stack-nerfed together with the corresponding modules not only with themselves, it IS a bug, and sooner or later it will get "fixed". Probably much later, probably in this very patch, under "exploit fixes". You never know. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:34:00 - [8] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 02:35:38 Originally by: Akita T No, but since all other rigs are stack-nerfed together with the corresponding modules not only with themselves, it IS a bug, and sooner or later it will get "fixed". Probably much later, probably in this very patch, under "exploit fixes". You never know. Probably gives greater probability towards an event happening than not. I think you were looking for "maybe". I dunno, I'm kinda looking forward to the WTFBBQ Amarr pwnage, so that I can drink the sweet tears of their crying when it gets nerfed :-) Though, it isn't as though the Apoc isn't going to be OP anyway... :) -Liang Ed: I point out the probably thing (politely) because I know that English isn't your first language and you thus may not realize it, and also because the statements are contradictory. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Jack Jombardo Amarr	Posted - 2008.03.11 02:59:00 - [9] Even befor the patch Beam-Apoc >>>> sniper Cruiser hell, Medium vis Largh weapons. They MUST have more range.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:04:00 - [10] Some people just hate amarr and liked the old status quo. Well maybe its just time for adapt and die or do what we've been told a 1000 times: train another race? No better pretend to not care at all but breath fire and brimstone in every possible thread.
Last Wolf Templars of Space	Posted - 2008.03.11 03:10:00 - [11] sooo whats the optimal with conflag? Originally by: Liang Nuren wrong forum isroy i am vjery drunm
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.11 04:43:00 - [12] I have been reliably informed that combat in EVE takes place at three ranges, web range, scramble range, and fleet range. I have also been repeatedly informed that there is no mid-range combat it EVE. Therefore it simply can't matter what damage you can do between scramble and fleet range. Prove me wrong /S&M/ On a serious note I'm reserving judgment, it doesn't appear to be overpowered, though I haven't yet trained up t2 large pulses so I don't have any "hands-on" experience with the ship. Looking at the stats I really don't see 584DPS from a BS, even at 123km, as the best use for an Amarrian pilot in gang. It's funny and it certainly has a few situations where it can make good use of it's bonus with pulses, but it's basically a gimmick, in the majority of engagements you'd probably be far better off with an Abaddon or Geddon. It could be fun to dump a load of them on an enemy fleet at 120km if the opportunity arises, but then it's also fun to snipe people from 249km in a bunch of Rokhs but we don't see everyone doing it. In the end it will probably be used for exactly what it is intended for, fleet work with beams, and if it's superior to the mega in this regard then it's about darn time one of the "long-range" races got the advantage in this regard over the "short-range" races. The megathron should not be the be all and end all of battleship combat.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.11 05:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Goumindong Optimal range rigs are bugged atm. It wont last. But it is overpowered. Have you got a link to a dev saying they're removing it? -Liang Bug reports have been attached to defects.
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.03.11 06:35:00 - [14] Why would you compare HAC's to Battleships? Its like comparing Marauders to Dreadnaughts. Originally by: CCP Eris Discordia I usually close my eyes and just beg, out loud added with a lot of squealing. I swear it helps.
Wideen Eon Project Legion of Honor	Posted - 2008.03.11 06:46:00 - [15] They haven't even implemented the patch yet and people are already whining... pretty amazing! To those that whine; have you ever tried fitting an apoc with anything decent? 8x MP II will leave little for anything remotely resembling a tank I'm sure, so I like this range bonus. Even with a rack of the largest guns (t2) the dmg isn't even impressive. Originally by: F'nog Your math intrigues me, and I wish to subscribe to its newsletter.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:55:00 - [16] Why would someone put 6 optimal mods, even with 3 bugged ones, on a apoc? I mean, 120km range due to the possibly bugged stacking is pretty useless. It has worse tracking than hac snipers, and worse weapon sig so even if you do track a enemy, you have a higher chance of missed shots. What use is a paper apoc shooting at 120km when snipers need 150-160km+ (and add in aligning distances on top). Im sorry, I just dont see how practical this is. Next you will be telling us the rokh is overpowered because it can also fire antimatter at 120km in a gimmik setup. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 08:55:00 - [17] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/03/2008 08:54:56 Doublepost -- Billion Isk Mission
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.03.11 09:34:00 - [18] Rokh can also do similar effect with rails and non tracking penalized ammo, probably could shove tracking rigs rather than optimal. Nothing new from the apoc here. People will often use specialist hacs for maneuverability ect. Not to menchion fast locking. I dont think apocs going to be fitted for megapulse sniping very often but yea, it can make good effect from mega pulses at long range. Too few amarr ships have range bonuses, their guns are touted as best mid range ect weapons. But when other ships get optimal/missile speed ect bonuses it certainly competes in lasers ideal optimal.
Xequecal	Posted - 2008.03.11 10:20:00 - [19] Edited by: Xequecal on 11/03/2008 10:24:12 Edited by: Xequecal on 11/03/2008 10:20:10 Originally by: Lord WarATron I mean, 120km range due to the possibly bugged stacking is pretty useless. It has worse tracking than hac snipers, and worse weapon sig so even if you do track a enemy, you have a higher chance of missed shots. Uhm, no. Base tracking on Mega Pulse Laser II: 0.03375 Base tracking on 250mm Railgun II: 0.023 Base tracking on 720mm Artillery II: 0.022 Base tracking on Heavy Beam Laser II: 0.033 Quote: What use is a paper megapulse apoc shooting at 120km when snipers need 150-160km+ (and add in aligning distances on top). Tach Apocs are what snipers use. Not Megapulolse Let's see.....it has better range, better tracking, and over double the damage of any medium gun sniper? 600 DPS is a lot. You can run with three sensor boosters, (1x targeting range, 2x lock time) deploy a large bubble on the gate, then sit 100km off the gate and enjoy risk-free ganking of anything that comes through. Quote: Im sorry, I just dont see how practical this is. Next you will be telling us the rokh is overpowered because it can also fire antimatter at 120km in a gimmik setup. It has 3.5x the tracking of a 425mm II Rokh shooting antimatter, 20km more range, higher DPS, and uses less cap. It's also much easier to fit, if you want to run a MWD, 8x 425mm II, and three weapon rigs on the Rokh you will need two reactor controls.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Xequecal Inaccurate info Medium sized weapons have a different weapon sig. E.G Heavy Beam II has weapon sig of 125. Megapuse has sig of 400. Thus megapuse is pretty poor tracking. Pop these into the tracking calculator and suddenly your relise your argument is moot. There is a reason why snipers are 150km+. I strongly suggest you fly some sniping ships in real life pvp. 100-120km snipers are useless, just ask why t1 fitted snipers are so ineffective. -- Billion Isk Mission
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:23:00 - [21] Thing about the rokh / hacs / beam fit. If the enemy is at 150km they arent in alot of trouble. Its a very specialized pulse setup that requires a full set of optimal rigs, alot of PG and such. if a rokh used 3 tracking rigs rather than 3 optimal it could achieve similar results. You are thinking too highly of the dps/tracking/optimal stats and not enough of actually execution the setup in a realistic enviroment. Its not at all overpowered. Good range/damage/tracking with pulses granted.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 11:30:00 - [22] Originally by: Lord WarATron Originally by: Xequecal Inaccurate info Medium sized weapons have a different weapon sig. E.G Heavy Beam II has weapon sig of 125. Megapuse has sig of 400. Thus megapuse is pretty poor tracking. Pop these into the tracking calculator and suddenly your relise your argument is moot. There is a reason why snipers are 150km+. I strongly suggest you fly some sniping ships in real life pvp. 100-120km snipers are useless, just ask why t1 fitted snipers are so ineffective. THIS Thats also the reason why you dont see "anti-support" geddons in fleets (3x TE + scorch, range of around 80km nowadays). Because they wont hit anything. And thats the reason why 120km pulses are too useless - they wont hit ceptors anyways.
Klavayne Free Mercenaries Union Red Republic	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:52:00 - [23] I'd like to also point out, in theory a cruise raven can match that damage at that range (yes it might take a while, but in 'theory') so its not like its totally overpowered at that range. Also, aren't amarr supposed to have the best damage at mid-range? At that range, the ship wont be that good in fleets when everyone else warps at 150km so beams will be used anyway. Fuss about nothing.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:06:00 - [24] And the problem is... lack of "mid range" in eve. Combat happens either sub-warp disruptor range (20-30km tops) or at sniping range (150+). Anything in between is dead range in which fights happen less than 0,1% of the time (of all my fights in TRI i can think off 2-3 engagements where i actually used longer scorch instead of 15+8km multi range).
Msobe	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:42:00 - [25] As lame as it is when people post fits packed with officer mods and T2 rigs then overload it all to prove that ship X is over powered . . . I don't care too much about fits exploiting a known bug to prove the new Apoc is. The difference is its possible for a lot of players to fly this fit - but unlike the silly EFT fits, this one won't be possible once they get around to fixing it. Even sillier to rig a sniper BS and compare it to unrigged sniper HACs and then be surprised at the outcome. Its true that large pulses out track med long range rails . . . but once the rigs are fixed, they won't out range them. The ship isn't the problem, the guns aren't the problem, the broken rigs are.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:49:00 - [26] Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 11/03/2008 13:54:49 Jesus some people can't read. In my comparison I took into account signature (400 vs 125) and the large weapons are BETTER than the mediums whilst also having more range than everything but an Eagle. So while its "bonused sniper" other ships that are "bonused sniper" can't offer ANYTHING better, not even tracking with a smaller size of weapon! Cruise ravens damage doesn't hit instantly, a group of these things will destroy even a BS tanked with plates + EANM before it can align+warp or get back to the gate. I've been shot by one of them and it fecking hurts.... especially with the -em res to armour change. Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship If it is a bug (been around ages) and is fixed then things will be a lot better as you will no longer be able to out range and out track the specialized medium size weapon snipers
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:11:37 Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:10:57 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship That was a sarcastic post the guy made as a joke. You really 100% beleive it?. 220km Megapulse. Lol. 400 sig guns vs cepters sig = instapwn. lol. And if you beleive that, then also note that I can hit 249km with Antimatter in rokh blasters which pawns cepters, shuttles and even titans!
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:09:00 - [28] So your entire argument boils down to: "I herd from this gai PulseApocs wer uber." Flawless logic there. Do the math, come back and post hit chances against multiple ship classes, and then remember that it doesn't matter either way. HAC's are not typically the best tool for any job, their primary advantages are mobility and lock time and when you don't take those into account theres not a single HAC out there that isn't outperformed by something else.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:23:00 - [29] When the Rokh came out, there was a lot of whining about how overpowered it would be, with it being able to have 250km optimal. Then... nothing happened. There's no Rokh fleets pwning things at 250km that I heard off. This is just more of the same hysteria... ------------------------------------------
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:39:00 - [30] Originally by: Scout McAlt Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:11:37 Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 14:10:57 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here is who was shooting me on SISI even says about the setup+ship That was a sarcastic post the guy made as a joke. You really 100% beleive it?. 220km Megapulse. Lol. 400 sig guns vs cepters sig = instapwn. lol. And if you beleive that, then also note that I can hit 249km with Antimatter in rokh blasters which pawns cepters, shuttles and even titans! Great troll. 1. He's serious, talk to him and go on SISI, he might even shoot you to demonstrate for you first hand. 2. Congrats at showing your lack of knowledge and maths. 400 sig with 4 times the tracking compared to 125 sig weapon is better (125 * 3.2 = 400). More range = low transversal = better effective tracking. 3. I've felt it to believe it. Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf So your entire argument boils down to: "I herd from this gai PulseApocs wer uber." Flawless logic there. Do the math, come back and post hit chances against multiple ship classes, and then remember that it doesn't matter either way. HAC's are not typically the best tool for any job, their primary advantages are mobility and lock time and when you don't take those into account theres not a single HAC out there that isn't outperformed by something else. I have amarr BS 4 but not got t2 large weapons yet thanks, and done more than "heard it", i've helped test its performance and when your at 125km+ its tracking is real and totally outclasses the HAC anti-support snipers. How about YOU do the math, i've clearly stated real setups and the accurate stats. If you can't work out how tracking factor = ((transversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 works thats not my problem. Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:08:00 - [31] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 11/03/2008 16:08:34 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir I have amarr BS 4 but not got t2 large weapons yet thanks, and done more than "heard it", i've helped test its performance and when your at 125km+ its tracking is real and totally outclasses the HAC anti-support snipers. How about YOU do the math, i've clearly stated real setups and the accurate stats. If you can't work out how tracking factor = ((transversal / (range * turret tracking)) * (turret sig res / sig rad)) ^ 2 works thats not my problem. Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend. Look. I will make this simple for you. Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory. And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers". -- Billion Isk Mission
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:16:00 - [32] Originally by: Lord WarATron Look. I will make this simple for you. Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory. And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers". ^^ This. Apoc with 125km pulses is a pure freak show. Its not useful out of very specific circumstances that will most likely never ocurr. And dude that 220km apoc the guy is quoting didn't have an ONEIROS next to it, no? In small gang pvp such a ship is going to die in seconds. Really i'd be thankful if my enemy brings those instead of trimarked geddons or abaddons only my enemies are competent enough to avoid such a failure. As a sniper it lacks range to begin with. So what are we actually talking about here? First its the apoc with beams thats omgwtfoverpowered and now with pulses. You guys will never be content unless it gets its old bonuses back. Because unlike what people tend to say competition is bad for business, right?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:23:00 - [33] Also if you look closely: mister theorycraft warrior uses T2 AMMO in muninn = stupidity. Small hint: both eagle and muninn on Tranquility (yes thats the "real" server not Sisi) use ... FACTION ammo for pvp. Why? Because of... gasp: TRACKING. Now you can multiple both tracking numbers by 4 and see how it works in real game.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:25:00 - [34] Originally by: Lord WarATron Look. I will make this simple for you. Play Real eve and stop attending Theory classes. I hear the Rokh has obsoleted every other sniper accoring to your theory. And I doubt anyone is going to be convinced that a 400 sig megapulse gun at 120km can out track a Hac sniper shooting at also the same range. Also add in lock time, mobility etc. Come back once you have train up Large Pulse Spec, since till then, you havent a clue what you are talking about tracking. Also come back after you win a fleet fight vs a competent opponent with "100-120km snipers". I'll make this simple for you, attend maths lessons because CCP have confirmed that formula is accurate, so if you don't believe the formulas that EVE uses thats your problem. What would it take to convince you? Because you seem very "my opinion with no proof is worth more than your opinion and proof". My other account (not active atm) is nearly 40m SP char so I know fine well about tracking and such. But when I post with him I get "you arn't amarr so shut up cos your biased" comments so I use this amarr char and I get "train skills noob!" comments instead. Argue the points because "i'm right and your wrong" arguement are just rubbish. My theory? Rokh only offers more range (with some tank) compared to other snipers, they at least offer more alpha/track/dps, people cried about the range, this is all factors.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:36:00 - [35] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Congrats, you also didn't attend maths lessons. Its the same penalty for all ships, I didn't compare t1 vs t2, if remove that penalty of t2 and use t1 and OMG the balance is the same because it modifies everything the same way! (although muninn improves slightly due to better t1 long range ammo). No it is you that fails. 1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo. 2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks. 3. Your comparison is flawed in many ways 4. You fail at EFT warrioring 5. You fail at sisi warrioring 6. You fail eve. 7. Cancel your account please. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:36:00 - [36] 600-700 DPS at 100km is NOT a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point. Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT... which lends alot of credence towards the 220km pulse apoc (presumably using T2 rigs etc) that was referenced. Now, I realize that EFT isn't perfect, and it isn't Eve, but it hasn't been wrong about my optimal range yet. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is NOT a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point. Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT... which lends alot of credence towards the 220km pulse apoc (presumably using T2 rigs etc) that was referenced. Now, I realize that EFT isn't perfect, and it isn't Eve, but it hasn't been wrong about my optimal range yet. -Liang But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:38:00 - [38] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo. 2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks. Just to trim the ad hominem from his post and ensure you get the point. And btw: QFT. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:40:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer 1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo. 2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks. Just to trim the ad hominem from his post and ensure you get the point. And btw: QFT. -Liang Exactly, the CORE problem is more that the only good T2 ammo is the long ranged short range turret ammo. 3/4 T2 ammo types need fixes. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc. Yeah, thats where my biggest beef lies... but good DPS at 100km is not as useless as its being made out. :) I think it'll make for a great fleet sniper (maybe the best?) once the patch hits, but I honestly am not jealous. FFS, my sniper BS of choice is the Tempest... -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:43:00 - [41] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But maybe its better to blame the real villain instead? Its the non stacking range mods that are the problem, not the new bonuses on apoc. Yeah, thats where my biggest beef lies... but good DPS at 100km is not as useless as its being made out. :) I think it'll make for a great fleet sniper (maybe the best?) once the patch hits, but I honestly am not jealous. FFS, my sniper BS of choice is the Tempest... -Liang Yes 100km dps isnt bad but the apoc is getting the same kind of bonus zealot gets. No one was complaining about 50km zealot pulses, why such a big fuss about the apoc bonus. The apoc has a choice now to fit pulses and dominate BS-mid range combat. Its fine. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:44:00 - [42] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 16:44:34 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yes 100km dps isnt bad but the apoc is getting the same kind of bonus zealot gets. No one was complaining about 50km zealot pulses, why such a big fuss about the apoc bonus. The apoc has a choice now to fit pulses and dominate BS-mid range combat. Its fine. I think what everyone is (rightly) worried about is the optimal range rig "bug" not being fixed for a few months. -Liang Ed: Because that really does make the Apoc OP. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:45:00 - [43] Rails need a boost. _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?" "Guns... Lots of guns"
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost. But that would overpower eagle even more -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:47:00 - [45] Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost. WTF no? Arty plxkthx?! -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But that would overpower eagle even more You can't claim the Apoc is fine in one breath and the Eagle OP in another. ;-) -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:49:00 - [47] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Lyria Skydancer But that would overpower eagle even more You can't claim the Apoc is fine in one breath and the Eagle OP in another. ;-) -Liang I said the bonuses on apoc are fine but the non stacking rigs not. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Thorek Ironbrow Ironbrow Industries Co. Soldiers of the Forgotten Abyss	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow Rails need a boost. WTF no? Arty plxkthx?! I wnt rty un rial buust mmkay? cos i lke rfl Minnie un arofl Dari shippieszaes mmmmm...kay? _____________________________ "So what do you need, besides a miracle?" "Guns... Lots of guns"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Heres an example, if you think sig/transversal isn't realistic then try it yourself because it doesn't change that trend. Am I missing something or did you not bother to rig the HACs but rigged the Apoc to "prove" your point? Add rigs to the HACs to make up for the perceived short-comings and then see. Also, while you're at it, setup a rigged Mega and Rokh and see how they compare. Not saying you are right or wrong as I honestly have no clue but it does look like you are stacking the deck to "prove" your point. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!" ------
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is NOT a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point. I told you yesterday that a scorch apoc does not do 600-700 dps. So how about you quote correct numbers to begin with? Originally by: Liang Nuren Also, its relatively trivial to get a 140km optimal out of the 1.1 Apoc on EFT... I told you yesterday that i was on test and tried it out. 3 x tc 2 + optimal script, 3 x te 2 and 3 x optimal rig gave me 125km optimal. I have amarr battleship 5 but only sharpshooter 4. Give me your magical "trivial" (trivial != 9 slots + heavy pg penalty btw) 140km fit and i am gonna test it. What eft says on this matter doesn't mean a whole lot. So unless you have more to offer or at least a fitting that i could check myself on the test server please stop running around quoting the wrong numbers out of the wrong context (-> think oneiros on that guys 220)
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:21:00 - [51] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 11/03/2008 17:22:24 Originally by: Wu Jiun trivial != 9 slots + heavy pg penalty btw Triviality is a measure of difficulty. 3-4 HS, 3 TE's, and 3 optimal rigs is plenty trivial. Also, don't forget hardwirings... because people do use them. Alot. Quote: What eft says on this matter doesn't mean a whole lot. I started the conversation with this. Thanks for repeating me. :) Quote: think oneiros on that guys 220 Which is an excellent point... I assumed it to merely be T2 rigs and such. Its actually funny because I bought an Ony last night and it still didn't click. -Liang Ed: FREAKING FINALLY. Eve-O kept eating my post... this is the third iteration of the post. The first two were far more detailed... but I kept getting eaten on the Eve-O proxies each not having me logged in. -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:26:00 - [52] Originally by: Liang Nuren 600-700 DPS at 100km is NOT a freakshow and nor is it useless - you just aren't applying the correct situational template. The reason that the Rokh hasn't wtfpwnd all other snipers is because there is no default 250km warp in point. There is a 100km warp in point. Firstly, such a apoc does not do 600-700dps. Secondly, there is not default 150km warp point either, yet all the pvp fleet battles have people fighting at 150km+. The issue is not the Warp distance option. Most fleet fights have people setup to warp to a covert ops to secure range and location. It is just as easy to get your battleships at 150km to the enemy as it is to get them at 250km to the enemy. The issue with the rokh is something else that we wont go into with this thread. I cannot see why someone in a apoc would want 100-120km insted of 150km Range. Just because something can in theory is not a practical real reason why it should. And I dont claim to be the master tactics expert either, but I have been in enough fleet fights to note that its just not viable due to todays current style of pvp. -- Billion Isk Mission
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:33:00 - [53] Originally by: Lord WarATron And I dont claim to be the master tactics expert either, but I have been in enough fleet fights to note that its just not viable due to todays current style of pvp. 100km Snipers only work if they do the "mongol horse archer" tactic and the apoc is not fast enough nor locks targets fast enough to do that. Sigh, there you go applying the wrong template to the battle. I'm not saying that there are going to be fleets of 120km pulse apocs out wtfpwning everyone. I'm much more expecting to see fleets of Tach apocs out wtfpwning everyone in fleet situations. Lets be clear on this: not every situation that involves ranged battleships involves 250 man fleets. I am not referring at all to "fleet" combat in the traditional sense. I am definitely not all that experienced with huge fleets the way you are, but I'm plenty experienced in "small" gang combat. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:41:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren I am definitely not all that experienced with huge fleets the way you are, but I'm plenty experienced in "small" gang combat. -Liang Ok here is another question. Where would you beleive that a Pulse apoc setup for sniping be more viable for the player to use over another shiptype or shipclass? -- Billion Isk Mission
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Lord WarATron Ok here is another question. Where would you beleive that a Pulse apoc setup for sniping be more viable for the player to use over another shiptype or shipclass? It will be a more effective sniper in any situation where you don't have recon pilots giving you 150-200km warpin points... such as roaming lowsec gangs. Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:46:00 - [56] Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 17:48:00 Originally by: Liang Nuren Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates. -Liang Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup?
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Liang Nuren Triviality is a measure of difficulty. I think from what i wrote it was obvious that i understand the meaning of the word. Why else would i mention the use of 9 slots and a pg penalty in that context? Originally by: Liang Nuren 3-4 HS, 3 TE's, and 3 optimal rigs is plenty trivial. Also, don't forget hardwirings... because people do use them. Alot. 4 hs still don't give 700dps on a scorch apoc. Not gonna happen. I will check about hardwirings but maybe thats another 5% optimal on top. Your numbers will still be incorrect then. And 3 rigs, 6 module slots, heavy pg penalty, 5% rof imp, 5% dmg imp + paishan thingie isnt trivial. Its top notch, maxed to the last. And even given my mediocre english i think most people would see it the same way. And even then i doubt your numbers are true as you still fail to give me a detailed fitting to test. I'll blame the eve-o forum for that as i know they're bugged. For you those things that aren't trvial are the ones that are impossible? I've seen you skew facts now on two occasions. I thought you were just exaggerating to make a point. But now i see whats your real intent. You're like these guys quoting vaga dps with hail but for amarr. Quote: I started the conversation with this. Thanks for repeating me. :) You still quoted those wrong eft numbers in 2 threads. So i just wanted to reinforce that statement for the greater good.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:50:00 - [58] Originally by: Scout McAlt Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup? Two things: - I've seen sentries shoot 210km - You don't always have aggression... but yeah, it should be able to tank long enough. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:55:00 - [59] Originally by: Scout McAlt Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 17:48:00 Originally by: Liang Nuren Lowsec gangs are nice because all those nano ships that you fear do not operate on gates. -Liang Gates have 150km sentry range, can the apoc tank this in a 120km sniper setup? With logistic support maybe. You would use an oneiros for tracking links, throw in some remote sensor boosters with targeting range scripts and it should be relatively easy. That is if you have a group of amarr specced pilots and 2 oneiros guys. However this is just display of good teamwork. I mean you will still need tacklers at the gate for the bigger stuff. As for sniping small ships well you could do that way out of sentry range anyway for like years. Nobody complained and as a mostly lowsec player i can assure you this tactic is pretty dead since wtz. Havent seen a gate sniper for like yeah well like since wtz.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:55:00 - [60] Originally by: Wu Jiun You're like these guys quoting vaga dps with hail but for amarr. No, not at all. I just don't have the numbers exactly in front of me at this time of day. I get most of my 100% accurate posting done at night. It's also when I do my research, so I may have simply not remembered the numbers correctly. Also, I never saw your rebuttal about having tried it on sisi... I would liked to have seen or noticed it. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 17:57:00 - [61] Originally by: Wu Jiun However this is just display of good teamwork. I mean you will still need tacklers at the gate for the bigger stuff. As for sniping small ships well you could do that way out of sentry range anyway for like years. Nobody complained and as a mostly lowsec player i can assure you this tactic is pretty dead since wtz. Havent seen a gate sniper for like yeah well like since wtz. The tactic wasn't for a gate sniper... use a real sniper for that. It was for roaming. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
KD.Fluffy Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:01:00 - [62] The new mega pulse apoc completely outclasses medium range megathron. Guess I know which skills to start training next
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:01:00 - [63] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Wu Jiun However this is just display of good teamwork. I mean you will still need tacklers at the gate for the bigger stuff. As for sniping small ships well you could do that way out of sentry range anyway for like years. Nobody complained and as a mostly lowsec player i can assure you this tactic is pretty dead since wtz. Havent seen a gate sniper for like yeah well like since wtz. The tactic wasn't for a gate sniper... use a real sniper for that. It was for roaming. -Liang Sniper apoc in roaming gangs that fights in gate sentry range for killing nanofaggots in low sec who dont agress first due to sentries. Do you both sit and look at each other? Is that right?
Liang Nuren Black Sea Industries Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 18:39:00 - [64] Originally by: Scout McAlt Sniper apoc in roaming gangs that fights in gate sentry range for killing nanofaggots in low sec who dont agress first due to sentries. Do you both sit and look at each other? Is that right? Does this ship even hit nanofaggots due to tracking and weapon sig? A few points: - Nanoships are not epidemic in lowsec - but BS's, Drakes, and Myrms are - Inties/nanoships don't engage on gates unless you have GCC - The Apoc can sentries tank plenty long enough at 100km if it needed to - and it's virtually immune to most return fire - Given sufficient range, yes the Apoc can track nanoships - and that range isn't nearly as far as you think it is - You don't always have GCC or -5 sec (and not all pirates have negative sec anyway) It seems like you're just trolling, but I did choose to give you the benefit of the doubt. -Liang -- Naturally, I do not in any way speak for my corp or alliance.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 19:30:00 - [65] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No it is you that fails. 1. Scorch is long range ammo for short range turrets wich is the best kind of T2 ammo. 2. Long range ammo for long range weapons sucks. 3. Your comparison is flawed in many ways 4. You fail at EFT warrioring 5. You fail at sisi warrioring 6. You fail eve. 7. Cancel your account please. Who died and made you god since QOTSA? You were alright back then but my god you've developed into a right selfrichous **. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Here you go with t1 ammo. Originally by:** Imperator Jora'h Am I missing something or did you not bother to rig the HACs but rigged the Apoc to "prove" your point? Add rigs to the HACs to make up for the perceived short-comings and then see. Also, while you're at it, setup a rigged Mega and Rokh and see how they compare. Not saying you are right or wrong as I honestly have no clue but it does look like you are stacking the deck to "prove" your point. I haven't rigged them with weapon rigs as they don't have the fitting to (as I said in the first post). So theres whole range of rigs you could put in there, but nothing that would really help the offensive capabilities (maybe sensor rigs). Rigged Mega/Rokh with blasters or rails? With blasters a purely theoretical fit for Rokh of neutrons with null, 3 optimal rigs and 2 TE + TC doesn't get past 40km. Rails even with multiple tracking modules doesn't get close, less dps, less tracking and harder fitting with the rigs.
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:00:00 - [66] Edited by: Scout McAlt on 11/03/2008 20:01:24 Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Who died and made you god since QOTSA? You were alright back then but my god you've developed into a right selfrichous ****. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Here you go with t1 ammo. Eagle does more DPS than apoc at 150km which is battleship sniper range? Whats this chart trying to show, since Aurora Zealot does more DPS at 100km?
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:09:00 - [67] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Who died and made you god since QOTSA? You were alright back then but my god you've developed into a right selfrichous ****. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Here you go with t1 ammo. Did you use range rigs on the hacs aswell? So youre one of the old QOTSA eh? Why dont you come out and post with your main then and show some QOTSA honor. Since you opened the subject...You might remember me saying back then (wich was like back in 2006) that amarr needed serious fixing and buffs. Youre prolly one of those people back then that said that wasnt true. Guess what, amarr got some fixes finally. It turns out I was the one that was right. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:17:00 - [68] Also he used t1 ammo not FACTION ammo (which boosts damage by 15%) ALSO: he forgot to add higher transversal velocity (200m/s is possible to mantain w/o any speed mods) And for guys who think that this setup is viable: Your fleet WILL have amarr, cald, gall, min ships in it. WILL you warp at 120km so your "uberpocs" will have range? And thus leave enemy in higher damage range (even enabling em to use t1 snipers)? Or maybe you will warp at 160+ km (thus disabling t1 snipers) but then... owait: your apoc is useless. And guess why most GOOD fleets WILL warp at 160+km: because it removes any threat from noob snipers. And "pulse apocs".
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:32:00 - [69] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also he used t1 ammo not FACTION ammo (which boosts damage by 15%) ALSO: he forgot to add higher transversal velocity (200m/s is possible to mantain w/o any speed mods) And for guys who think that this setup is viable: Your fleet WILL have amarr, cald, gall, min ships in it. WILL you warp at 120km so your "uberpocs" will have range? And thus leave enemy in higher damage range (even enabling em to use t1 snipers)? Or maybe you will warp at 160+ km (thus disabling t1 snipers) but then... owait: your apoc is useless. And guess why most GOOD fleets WILL warp at 160+km: because it removes any threat from noob snipers. And "pulse apocs". Yeah hes doing alot of number manipulating to prove a point that doesnt exist. Then he tries to make me look like the bad guy. -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 20:58:00 - [70] Edited by: Riaz Qaadir on 11/03/2008 21:00:19 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Did you use range rigs on the hacs aswell? No because they don't fit ffs. I've only had to say that 3 times now. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also he used t1 ammo not FACTION ammo (which boosts damage by 15%) ALSO: he forgot to add higher transversal velocity (200m/s is possible to mantain w/o any speed mods) And for guys who think that this setup is viable: Your fleet WILL have amarr, cald, gall, min ships in it. WILL you warp at 120km so your "uberpocs" will have range? And thus leave enemy in higher damage range (even enabling em to use t1 snipers)? Or maybe you will warp at 160+ km (thus disabling t1 snipers) but then... owait: your apoc is useless. And guess why most GOOD fleets WILL warp at 160+km: because it removes any threat from noob snipers. And "pulse apocs". Your making stuff up now. 15% more damage for everything, yeah thats so biased! . Whatever numbers used someone always says "THATS NOT REAL!!!!!" You want mwd cruiser so 2000m/s transversal with 1100m signature ? More? Less? What speed and angle are we going to say is realistic? perfect orbit? angled approach? Provide the numbers you see as realistic or don't complain about others. Well if the setup isn't viable then there is also no viable sniper HAC setups except the Eagle as its the only one that can reach 160+km. No where have I said this is to replace proper sniper BS fleets that can hit at 200km, thats just being stupid. Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Yeah hes doing alot of number manipulating to prove a point that doesnt exist. Then he tries to make me look like the bad guy. WTF? I got told use t1 ammo so I did. Its easy to sit there behind your pc going "YOUR WRONG!" and not provide any information on how to correct what you percieve as an error. There is no manipulation, i'm not the one who started throw insults around, I answer questions asked and if you want to provide "realistic" stats feel free and i'll use them. But hay lets just call the person whos tried to explain what people have been mentioning in various places and put real stats behind it to compare them to other ships of that range/tracking.
BlackHorizon Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:35:00 - [71] Edited by: BlackHorizon on 11/03/2008 21:37:26 This screenshot is a few weeks old, but it's what will be possible on TQ tomorrow. Screenshot
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:36:00 - [72] Seriously go play goddamn game. If you are so keen try your setups. If they work i guess sooner or later every fleet will have pulsepoc's. If not... guess you are wrong. And i can even bet that "pulseapoc" will not be popular. As for "sniper HACs" yes only eagle is viable antisupport boat. Sometimes muninn but if you can fly both - always take eagle before muminn. Zealot is just bad and its only goot do use when you cant use anything else (nor t2 sniper BS).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:40:00 - [73] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 11/03/2008 21:37:26 This screenshot is a few weeks old, but it's what will be possible on TQ tomorrow. Screenshot sisi != tranq -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 21:59:00 - [74] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 11/03/2008 21:37:26 This screenshot is a few weeks old, but it's what will be possible on TQ tomorrow. Screenshot Ohhh so now for every "pulse apoc" the fleet will have one oneiros? Great... I think i prefer 2 snipers instead... (and FYI yes its possible even NOW just around 160km range). No idea why people are panicking...
FemmeFatal Control Theory	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:17:00 - [75] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 11/03/2008 21:37:26 This screenshot is a few weeks old, but it's what will be possible on TQ tomorrow. Screenshot Ohhh so now for every "pulse apoc" the fleet will have one oneiros? Great... I think i prefer 2 snipers instead... (and FYI yes its possible even NOW just around 160km range). No idea why people are panicking... I don't know if you'd take it over a tachyon fleet bs but you might consider taking it over a support hac.
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:26:00 - [76] Originally by: FemmeFatal I don't know if you'd take it over a tachyon fleet bs but you might consider taking it over a support hac. If he can use t2 large pulses hes very close (or already has) t2 large beams. So there is absolutely NO reason for the guy to sit in pulse-lol-bs when he can fly proper sniper. And yes - you need oneiros too: so thats 2 guys to do the job of 1 eagle.
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:32:00 - [77] Originally by: FemmeFatal I don't know if you'd take it over a tachyon fleet bs but you might consider taking it over a support hac. This is the main point i'm making. If you have the choice what ship do you want? A T1 insurable sniper with more dps, alpha and range with the same if not better tracking... or a T2 sniper with lower dps, alpha and range with same if not weaker tracking. Only reason to take the HAC is the 100mm better scan res (same lock range) or the better sig+agility (but with less HP). Personally I forsee this to be more of a specialized setup akin to "burn eden ravens" rather than widespred. A 4 man gang with 2 megapulse Apocs, a logistics and a tackler can do > 1000 dps at 200km with tracking that will worry a interceptor where traditional snipers do less DPS and less tracking.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Home 0f Bored Occultists	Posted - 2008.03.11 22:54:00 - [78] Originally by: Deva Blackfire (and FYI yes its possible even NOW just around 160km range). No idea why people are panicking... This. It was already possible before to get sniper range with pulses, why is it such a big deal now all of a sudden. Its not like we saw alot of 160km pulse snipers... -------------------------------------- [Video]Skirmish Warfare
Scout McAlt	Posted - 2008.03.11 23:18:00 - [79] With a 200 Man fleet of Orinos boosting Blasters on a Rokh, they too can hit 200km Range. Shall we nerf blasters?
Deux Machina	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:11:00 - [80] Originally by: Scout McAlt With a 200 Man fleet of Orinos boosting Blasters on a Rokh, they too can hit 200km Range. Shall we nerf blasters? i thought a blaster rokh top ended at about 50km with officer fits and an ony?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:25:00 - [81] Originally by: Deux Machina Originally by: Scout McAlt With a 200 Man fleet of Orinos boosting Blasters on a Rokh, they too can hit 200km Range. Shall we nerf blasters? i thought a blaster rokh top ended at about 50km with officer fits and an ony? About 80km range with 3 of the bugged optimal rigs.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:30:00 - [82] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here you go with t1 ammo. What are you shooting at that has 200 m/s transversal with 125m sig at 120km? How about a realistic situation? How many sensor boosters are you fitting? Loading what scripts? Can you even lock an inty before it gets to point blank range?
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2008.03.12 00:46:00 - [83] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Riaz Qaadir Here you go with t1 ammo. What are you shooting at that has 200 m/s transversal with 125m sig at 120km? How about a realistic situation? How many sensor boosters are you fitting? Loading what scripts? Can you even lock an inty before it gets to point blank range? Like I said early, what do you see as realistic and i'll do it? I put 200m/s as a none-mwding cruiser that isn't perfectly orbitting you. Now I could of done a mwd-ing cruiser at say 2km/s transversal and 1000m sig, would that be more acceptable? 3 sensor boosters, 2 speed 1 range = 135km and 289.1mm res. Say a target sig of 30m = 8 seconds if it hits its mwd then sig goes up to 150m = 4 seconds. For comparison a HAC (muninn for example) running 2 sensor boosters (1 with range script) for 138km lock and 398mm res would lock the 30m target in 6 seconds and the 150 in 3 seconds. For a MWD ship to cover 100km in 10 seconds is 10km/s which only snaked ships can do. So I think yes you can lock anything before it gets to point blank range (or scram range).
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.12 01:29:00 - [84] Originally by: Riaz Qaadir How about YOU do the math, i've clearly stated real setups and the accurate stats. Originally by: Dealin Blackleaf Do the math, come back and post hit chances against multiple ship classes, and then remember that it doesn't matter either way. Hows this, we MWD out of the bubble, we warp out, we come back at our optimal and your Pulse Apoc does what exactly? Hell, we could just burn in the opposite direction until we are beyond your range (since your setup seems to lack an MWD). And when your not ambushing the enemy? Your out of range from the start of the engagement until you explode. Even with an MWD an enemy fleet is still going to end up out-ranging you the majority of the time making your additional couple'o'hundred DPS worthless. If this wasn't the case we'd all fly close/med-range battleships in fleet. Your trying to bring a knife to a gunfight and it just won't work on TQ.

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