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Wardeneo
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:19:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Nocturnal Avenger
Drake hands down
agreed, i got 300k of sp in shield skills yet my drake tanks like a Ho 
i think the phoon is the highest sp intensive bs, raven is prolly the lowest....
BUT.... whats ppl's opinion on the highest sp intensive bc?
wardeneo
If brute force doesn't work..... your not using enough :) |
Lyria Skydancer
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Posted - 2008.03.13 13:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yep drake.
Least SP intense race = caldari. Playing caldari is like playing a warlock.
While i'm not going to question the statement on the drake, saying that caldari is the least sp intense race is simply wrong. To be able to use all Caldari ships at their full potential, you will need to train:
missiles
hybrid turrets
drones
e-war
This is very true. Although you can certainly get by with a very narrow spread of skills, to make the most of Caldari ships, you need a really diverse array of skills. You could also add armour-tanking to that list if you want to benefit from remote-reps.
In comparison, Amarr ships require very good skills in a narrow field; Caldari ships require lesser levels of skill, but over a more diverse field.
Thats not true. The ONLY thing amarr dont train at all are SHIELDS (dont forget a few mill in missiles because of khanid ships also). There is nothing narrow about the skill need of amarr players.
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[Video]Skirmish Warfare |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.03.13 14:39:00 -
[33]
I think there is a common misperception with Caldari and SP.
It's not that we are the lowest SP race, it's that we can become effective with reasonably low investments of SP. You can fly a drake and be effective with only a few million SP. But to do anyhing WELL as caldari requires just about as many SP as any other race.
My Drake for example has the following:
Fitting Skills:
Engineering V
Electronics V
Weapon Upgrades V
Advanced Weapon Upgrades IV
Weapon Skills:
Heavy Missiles V
Heavy Missile Specilization III
Missile Launcher Operation V
Rapid Launch V
Warhead Upgrades IV
Missile Bombardment IV
Missile Projection III
Shield Skills:
Shield Operation V
Shield Upgrades V
Tactical Shield Manipulation IV
And Drones:
Drones V
Drone Interfacing IV
Scout Drone Operation V
Race Spec Drones II.
For a drake, that's pretty serious SP investment. Yet what does it achieve? A paltry 315 or so EFT DPS - sufficient to worry a sturdy tank, sufficient for PvE but not terribly well suited for either.
Yes, the drake is the easiest BC to fly, i'll admit that. I'll even admit that caldari is the easiest race fly in a useful fashion. But, just like the other races if you want to shine you have to dump the SP in same as everyone.
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Yakia TovilToba
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Posted - 2008.03.13 16:37:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I think there is a common misperception with Caldari and SP.
It's not that we are the lowest SP race, it's that we can become effective with reasonably low investments of SP. You can fly a drake and be effective with only a few million SP. But to do anyhing WELL as caldari requires just about as many SP as any other race.
My Drake for example has the following:
Fitting Skills:
Engineering V
Electronics V
Weapon Upgrades V
Advanced Weapon Upgrades IV
Weapon Skills:
Heavy Missiles V
Heavy Missile Specilization III
Missile Launcher Operation V
Rapid Launch V
Warhead Upgrades IV
Missile Bombardment IV
Missile Projection III
Shield Skills:
Shield Operation V
Shield Upgrades V
Tactical Shield Manipulation IV
And Drones:
Drones V
Drone Interfacing IV
Scout Drone Operation V
Race Spec Drones II.
For a drake, that's pretty serious SP investment. Yet what does it achieve? A paltry 315 or so EFT DPS - sufficient to worry a sturdy tank, sufficient for PvE but not terribly well suited for either.
Yes, the drake is the easiest BC to fly, i'll admit that. I'll even admit that caldari is the easiest race fly in a useful fashion. But, just like the other races if you want to shine you have to dump the SP in same as everyone.
Thats the point, you have to train a lot and get a little. My missionrunner alt has 11mil in missile sp. All missile skills at 5, except cruise missile specialisation, which has 2 weeks left (2%rof). And what does he get ? Bit over 500dps with everything t2, 3 damagemods and faction cruise missiles. Thats rediculous, because of this i have to train for rails too, in order to fit 2 large hybrids and not waste those 2 last highslots.
So i started train turrets, with something like 20k sp in gunnery (aside from the weapon upgrades and siege module skills) i was able to do a lvl 3 mission today in a moa, without damagemods, just 5x 250mm scout railguns. Only those webifier and kayokan frigs were a problem, had to kill them with the 3 tII light drones. Don't think its possible to do that mission with 5 heavy launchers without damagemod with only 20k sp in missiles. Missiles are not the "easy-to-train-for-big-effect" weapon, that anti-caldari-propagandists try to make us believe.
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Saetan SaDiablo
Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:31:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I think there is a common misperception with Caldari and SP.
It's not that we are the lowest SP race, it's that we can become effective with reasonably low investments of SP. You can fly a drake and be effective with only a few million SP. But to do anyhing WELL as caldari requires just about as many SP as any other race.
My Drake for example has the following:
Fitting Skills:
Engineering V
Electronics V
Weapon Upgrades V
Advanced Weapon Upgrades IV
Weapon Skills:
Heavy Missiles V
Heavy Missile Specilization III
Missile Launcher Operation V
Rapid Launch V
Warhead Upgrades IV
Missile Bombardment IV
Missile Projection III
Shield Skills:
Shield Operation V
Shield Upgrades V
Tactical Shield Manipulation IV
And Drones:
Drones V
Drone Interfacing IV
Scout Drone Operation V
Race Spec Drones II.
For a drake, that's pretty serious SP investment. Yet what does it achieve? A paltry 315 or so EFT DPS - sufficient to worry a sturdy tank, sufficient for PvE but not terribly well suited for either.
Yes, the drake is the easiest BC to fly, i'll admit that. I'll even admit that caldari is the easiest race fly in a useful fashion. But, just like the other races if you want to shine you have to dump the SP in same as everyone.
AWU 4 Isnt needed for fitting out a drake neither is WU 5 actually, just because you HAVE them doesnt meen they are necessary. Of course to be the "best" you have to train millions and millions of xp. the fact is though a drake is the lowest sp required to be effective BC out there.
People can fly and solo lvl 3s and some lvl 4s with 3-4 mil in SP using a drake, sure it takes a while, but try todo that with amarr youll have a swift death awaiting.
PVP, heh we all know pvp is rough unless you have alot of sp anyway.
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Yosarian
MediaCataclysm
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
I rise you a typhoon.
The perfect ship for someone who couldn't make their mind up and trained everything. Now you can feel like you didn't waste your time
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Verrain Ravenlark
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:08:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Saetan SaDiablo
AWU 4 Isnt needed for fitting out a drake neither is WU 5 actually, just because you HAVE them doesnt meen they are necessary. Of course to be the "best" you have to train millions and millions of xp. the fact is though a drake is the lowest sp required to be effective BC out there.
People can fly and solo lvl 3s and some lvl 4s with 3-4 mil in SP using a drake, sure it takes a while, but try todo that with amarr youll have a swift death awaiting.
PVP, heh we all know pvp is rough unless you have alot of sp anyway.
Actually that is untrue. Even with WU 5 you cannot fit a full rack of T2 Heavy Launchers of a Drake without fitting mods. AWU 4 isn't needed for guns, but if you want a third LSEII (which is optimal for most passive fits) you will probably need it at least at 4.
So sure you can run some missions with low SP, but if you really want to take advantage of the full potential of the ship (just like any other) you need a lot of SP in the relevant areas.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.03.14 21:24:00 -
[38]
If you think that the skills listed are "intense" that you only get 315 dps out of them, or that you should be fitting 3 LSEs on a drake you have some problems. All of the other battlecruisers require more skilling for similar effectiveness.
The drake gets effective faster, and stays very very effective throughout its skill training span.
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Verrain Ravenlark
University of Caille
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Posted - 2008.03.15 05:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Goumindong
If you think that the skills listed are "intense" that you only get 315 dps out of them, or that you should be fitting 3 LSEs on a drake you have some problems. All of the other battlecruisers require more skilling for similar effectiveness.
The drake gets effective faster, and stays very very effective throughout its skill training span.
I'm not sure where you are getting the "intense" comment from, but in terms of other battlecruisers; I haven't done a lot of research on Minnie but I would argue that the Myrmidon is very similar to the Drake in terms of it's effectiveness at low SP, and it can easily scale into the easier lv. 4 missions as you gain skill. The main reason it isn't used in Lv. 4s like the Drake is that most people just use a Domi since all their drone skills apply so their DPS is good and the tank skills are the same.
Caldari pilots on the other hand need to train up their active shield skills and cruise missile before being able to effectively use a Raven; not that I am saying it's a huge deal, just saying that the only reason you don't see a billion "can my myrm do lv. 4s" threads right beside the Drake ones is the the Domi is a little bit of a smoother upgrade than Drake to Raven.
For Amarr, yeah they get the shaft for missions until they are in a ship with large weapons because the mediums suck for DPS and they don't have the tank to just plod through it (neither do their battleships, but they do 700+ DPS at decent range including the drones so who cares). That being said I think that is an issue with medium laser damage and cap use, not an indication that they are more skill intensive; I don't think any amount of skills would let an Amarr battlecruiser do anything but the weakest lv. 4 mission, but maybe I'm totally wrong.
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.15 06:17:00 -
[40]
Drake is really a good choice since Passive Tanking requires virtually zero skillpoints to do and can only be improved so much by skilling. Heavy Missiles don't take a huge amount of time to train, either, so that's also a plus.
However to be -really- effective with a Drake it's still quite skill intensive. Battlecruiser 5 is a must, as are HAMs (well, depending on the setup) and maxxed out Missile Support skills, which by no means are 'fast' to train. In that regard the Myrmidon probably takes less, if it dosen't use Blasters.
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Sionide
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.03.15 07:53:00 -
[41]
No question it's the warlock...err the drake.
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Bellum Eternus
Death of Virtue
Sex Panthers
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Posted - 2008.03.15 09:10:00 -
[42]
D R A K E
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Cutie Chaser
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 09:13:00 -
[43]
Passive tanked Myrm is probably equally effective as a drake at low SP. With no PG being required for guns to speak of you can over tank it and then just let your drones do the work for you.
***
Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Connor Banks
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.03.15 09:36:00 -
[44]
MUAHAHAHA to everyone out there who is not piloting a Drake. Eat dirt losers! 
/Connor
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Ban Shui
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.03.15 10:08:00 -
[45]
Drake... I was easily able to do lvl 3 missions in a low sp heavy missile passive tanked ferox, and the drake is much better again.
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Diomidis
Mythos Corp
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.03.15 10:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ban Shui
Drake... I was easily able to do lvl 3 missions in a low sp heavy missile passive tanked ferox, and the drake is much better again.
I was flying my Harbinger with 6.3M SP in Gunnery, 2M SP in drones, full T2 armor tank etc, in a ~15 SP char for lvl 3 missions...I've cross trained for the Raven to Rat in 0.0 space, so the Drake was pretty close...I've just bought it and rigged it...and...
BOY it TANKS! Even with named shield extenders and laughable missile and shield skills it tanks way better than the Harbinger. Sansha/Blood lvl 2/3 missions are leveled by a good Harby, still the Drake feels like it could do it way easier. It's DPS are lower, still the sustainable passive tank is impressive and feels like you could load FoFs, put some paper weights on the F keys and finish all the missions AFK 
With the Harbi you have to be way more cautious, micro-managing your AB / MAR / Guns to help it from capping out, approach, align etc...way more challenging...even with Sansha / Bloods. Versus Guristas or Angels, the scales are turned in favor to the Drake even more...
Drake hands down...
Join the Biggest Greek Corp!
www.Mythos-eve.com |
Not1k
Tainted Industries
ANTHRAX DEATH
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Posted - 2008.03.15 10:44:00 -
[47]
Hi,
Talking about drake, I was wondering if should spend a few days cross training for ferox probably at the beginning just for ratting or mission running.
Well im amarr and im a few days away from using t2 medium weaps for my harb. But i was thinking maybe its better to spend those few days to train for caldari bc and missiles skills still be used with sacrilege in the future. This is just for ratting/mission. Im not planning to cross train completely.
And talking about skills, would lvl 3s do? I mean like all shield support skills/missiles?
Thanks in advance
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.15 13:55:00 -
[48]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 15/03/2008 13:57:20
Drake is the least intensive.
However, caldari missile boats are only the least skill intensive if you want to fly one ship using one weapons system. Last time I checked you can't fit siege launchers on a Crow. on the other hand if you've trained for large guns you have already trained the smaller guns, therefore you can fly the smaller ships.
End result = If you want to fly every Caldari ship they're just as intensive as Gallente & Amarr, and almost on a par with minmatar.
As for the guy who thinks caldari don't need full fitting skills, just quit already.
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you all smell! |
Brodde Dim
Unseen University
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.15 14:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Brodde Dim on 15/03/2008 14:47:40
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 15/03/2008 13:57:20
Drake is the least intensive.
However, caldari missile boats are only the least skill intensive if you want to fly one ship using one weapons system. Last time I checked you can't fit siege launchers on a Crow. on the other hand if you've trained for large guns you have already trained the smaller guns, therefore you can fly the smaller ships.
End result = If you want to fly every Caldari ship they're just as intensive as Gallente & Amarr, and almost on a par with minmatar.
As for the guy who thinks caldari don't need full fitting skills, just quit already.
This topic is really old. Missiles require quite a bit less SP to use than their turret counterparts. Yes you will be able to use the smaller turrets if you have skills for the larger ones, but that is because you have allready trained those skills by that time.
On top of that the fact that you need a secondary skill trained up before you can train T2 turrets, like sharpshooter or motion prediction. And you need the specialization skill to 4 for all the smaller variants of a turret before you can train the next one.
To the OP: Yes, the drake is very efficient even with low SP.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2008.03.16 01:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Brodde Dim
Edited by: Brodde Dim on 15/03/2008 14:47:40
Originally by: welsh wizard
Edited by: welsh wizard on 15/03/2008 13:57:20
Drake is the least intensive.
However, caldari missile boats are only the least skill intensive if you want to fly one ship using one weapons system. Last time I checked you can't fit siege launchers on a Crow. on the other hand if you've trained for large guns you have already trained the smaller guns, therefore you can fly the smaller ships.
End result = If you want to fly every Caldari ship they're just as intensive as Gallente & Amarr, and almost on a par with minmatar.
As for the guy who thinks caldari don't need full fitting skills, just quit already.
This topic is really old. Missiles require quite a bit less SP to use than their turret counterparts. Yes you will be able to use the smaller turrets if you have skills for the larger ones, but that is because you have allready trained those skills by that time.
On top of that the fact that you need a secondary skill trained up before you can train T2 turrets, like sharpshooter or motion prediction. And you need the specialization skill to 4 for all the smaller variants of a turret before you can train the next one.
To the OP: Yes, the drake is very efficient even with low SP.
Completely irrelevant, you still can't fly anything but one or two ships until you train the relevant missile skills in order to fit a suitable weapons system. Theres actually more skillpoints in the missile tree altogether than one races gunnery tree believe it or not.
If you think you're suddenly awesome with 1 million sp in missiles then you're gravely mistaken. If missile users want to compete against turret users they have to go level V across the board (bar the specs). The damage is low with few skills.
Basically its a myth that Caldari missile ships are less intensive. Yes you can get in one with tech II launchers quicker than you can a gunship but you'll be utterly abysmal in any combat situation other than 'Guristas Extravaganza'.
For the ops purpose the Drake is definitely going to be quicker to skill than a Myrmidon (for example) but if you want to compete with that Myrmidon you're arguably going to need more skillpoints dedicated to your ship than he has (tanking him until he leaves isn't a victory).
Most people just see someone say "Caldari are less intensive" then believe it to be true but not for the reasons they think. To be a Caldari pilot able to fly any Caldari ship well you need more skillpoints than Amarr (closer gap since Khanid II) and easily as much as Gallente. Engineering is more intensive than mechanics by about 2 million sp, missiles are more intensive than gunnery by 1million sp + and everyone needs drones, everyone. If you want to fly the gunboats aswell then the gap widens further. Only Minmatar need more and thats because of the few armour tanking ships they use and the Typhoon with its 3 primary weapons systems.
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you all smell! |
Hitme Harder
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.03.16 01:15:00 -
[51]
Passive tank takes near perfect capacitor and shield skills, and extremely good fitting skills, so drake is not as low SP as people are saying.
AREN'T THEY ADORABLE? |
Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.03.16 01:35:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hitme Harder
Passive tank takes near perfect capacitor and shield skills, and extremely good fitting skills, so drake is not as low SP as people are saying.
For running Level 3 missions you only really need basic skills to pull off a workable passive tank. It's generally the best option for low-sp pilots as active tanks are generally horrific with a simlar amount of SP invested into them.
Level 4s however are a different story. Attempting to complete them solo in a Drake without at least Battlecruiser 5 and Shield Management 4 is often futile 
Then there's always the resistance compensation skills for pure-passive setups... Those are fun 
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Polly Prissypantz
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.03.16 01:49:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Originally by: Batelle
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yep drake.
Least SP intense race = caldari. Playing caldari is like playing a warlock.
oh god i lol'd
That's a terrible analogy.
Warlocks actually have good DPS.
No its not, caldari is the easiest race to play in eve. Warlock is the easiest race to play in WoW. Its powerful and its simple.
Good. Now go solo PvP in that Caldari ship of yours.
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Brodde Dim
Unseen University
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2008.03.16 17:19:00 -
[54]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Completely irrelevant, you still can't fly anything but one or two ships until you train the relevant missile skills in order to fit a suitable weapons system. Theres actually more skillpoints in the missile tree altogether than one races gunnery tree believe it or not.
If you think you're suddenly awesome with 1 million sp in missiles then you're gravely mistaken. If missile users want to compete against turret users they have to go level V across the board (bar the specs). The damage is low with few skills.
Basically its a myth that Caldari missile ships are less intensive. Yes you can get in one with tech II launchers quicker than you can a gunship but you'll be utterly abysmal in any combat situation other than 'Guristas Extravaganza'.
For the ops purpose the Drake is definitely going to be quicker to skill than a Myrmidon (for example) but if you want to compete with that Myrmidon you're arguably going to need more skillpoints dedicated to your ship than he has (tanking him until he leaves isn't a victory).
Most people just see someone say "Caldari are less intensive" then believe it to be true but not for the reasons they think. To be a Caldari pilot able to fly any Caldari ship well you need more skillpoints than Amarr (closer gap since Khanid II) and easily as much as Gallente. Engineering is more intensive than mechanics by about 2 million sp, missiles are more intensive than gunnery by 1million sp + and everyone needs drones, everyone. If you want to fly the gunboats aswell then the gap widens further. Only Minmatar need more and thats because of the few armour tanking ships they use and the Typhoon with its 3 primary weapons systems.
Very few pilots train all the missile skills. And you definatly dont need to have all skills to V to be efficient. I really doubt that many raven pilots have rocket specialization to 4 even. And they still do quite well with their T2 torps.
If you really like to train skills just to brag about how many SP you have, then missiles might be skill intensive, but that has nothing to with what the OP asked.
You cant really compare turrets with missiles in efficiency in pvp either, since they are used differently.
Then you talk about other skills than missile/turrets, and do the same mistake. You compare the size of the skill categories, wich says nothing about how much skills you need to be effective. And a lot of skills from most of the categories are needed for all races and all ships, especially engineering.
Atm. I think I have fewer SP directly linked to caldary than both amarr and gallente, and I still tend to use caldari ships most of the time, just because they are very simple to use, and very effective.
If the question had been "How many SP can you get if you train everyhing that can be remotely usefull for any of the ships for each race?" You would have a point though. Even though I think all the races would be fairly close in the end. But that would be a stupid question, wouldnt it?
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