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Ignoring ship loss petitions is a bad move CCP

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BiggHOSS Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 10:58:00 - [1] The gates between systems are not reliable and the rats at these gates have been getting some kills that are just ********. It used to be the case that you could put in a ship loss petition and get a response back and they were fair for the most part. Recently it seems that responses to petitions are blanket no's, or in my recent case they get deleted with no response? It may be the patch deleted all open petitions and I hope that is the case. But a lot of people are commenting on the almost blanket refusals coming out. It isn't a bad thing to listen to player petitions. Not all of us are trying to get free stuff and most of our petitions deal with legit game issues that are known.
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:05:00 - [2] I agree, they should not Ignore ship loss petitions. They should deny every single one of them, after re-tuning the Insurance system.
Bloody Rabbit State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:06:00 - [3] Originally by: Cipher7 They should deny every single one of them, after re-tuning the Insurance system. This Stop crying you baby

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:19:00 - [4] I understand that it sucks not getting a fair reimbursement. No argument there. But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's very true that most of you are asking for legit reimbursements. Only a handful of people file obviously fake reimbursements (that does not make the rest of them legit, the other group is unknown and, as I said, we can't reimburse those). On the flip side there is also a handful of people who would jump at the chance to accuse us of whatever they can and we can't give them fuel for their fire by reimbursing inconclusive losses. It's not 100% accurate justice but at least it's fair in it's inaccuracies as it applies to everyone. I don't think this response will make you feel any better about these blanket repsonses but I hope it clears up the reasons for them. That's better than being in the dark, no? ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006

Wild Rho GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:22:00 - [5] Originally by: CCP Prism X I understand that it sucks not getting a fair reimbursement. No argument there. But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's very true that most of you are asking for legit reimbursements. Only a handful of people file obviously fake reimbursements (that does not make the rest of them legit, the other group is unknown and, as I said, we can't reimburse those). On the flip side there is also a handful of people who would jump at the chance to accuse us of whatever they can and we can't give them fuel for their fire by reimbursing inconclusive losses. It's not 100% accurate justice but at least it's fair in it's inaccuracies as it applies to everyone. I don't think this response will make you feel any better about these blanket repsonses but I hope it clears up the reasons for them. That's better than being in the dark, no? Summary, give people an inch and they take a mile. If CCP didn't stick strictly to the logs people would abuse the system.
Rawr Cristina	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Wild Rho Originally by: CCP Prism X I understand that it sucks not getting a fair reimbursement. No argument there. But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's very true that most of you are asking for legit reimbursements. Only a handful of people file obviously fake reimbursements (that does not make the rest of them legit, the other group is unknown and, as I said, we can't reimburse those). On the flip side there is also a handful of people who would jump at the chance to accuse us of whatever they can and we can't give them fuel for their fire by reimbursing inconclusive losses. It's not 100% accurate justice but at least it's fair in it's inaccuracies as it applies to everyone. I don't think this response will make you feel any better about these blanket repsonses but I hope it clears up the reasons for them. That's better than being in the dark, no? Summary, give people an inch and they take a mile. If CCP didn't stick strictly to the logs people would abuse the system. This is so true it isn't even funny. At one point CCP reimbursed pretty much EVERY loss. Result? Certain people (I'm not going to name names) managed to get their ships duplicated by petitioning the same loss twice. It's because of people like that, that they need to be so strict on this matter. ... Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Treelox	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:34:00 - [7] While I give CCP a lot of crap for their failings, this is one thing I am glad they have conviction on. While I hope that they can at some point improve their the data collection for their "logs", I am happy with the current situation where they are not inclined to give back ships on whim or player whining. For those that care, I have filed three loss petitions total in +2years, one was quickly approved, one was approved after 3 weeks of back and forth with the GM team because other ppl in the fleet were getting theirs back and I wasnt, and the last one was never reimbursed since the logs showed nothing, even though it was the CCP ingame popup that killed me. -- Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Bloody Rabbit State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 11:38:00 - [8] Originally by: Wild Rho Summary, give people an inch and they take a mile. If CCP didn't stick strictly to the logs people would abuse the system. My god, I agree with a Goon
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:06:00 - [9] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Wild Rho Summary, give people an inch and they take a mile. If CCP didn't stick strictly to the logs people would abuse the system. This is so true it isn't even funny. At one point CCP reimbursed pretty much EVERY loss. Result? Certain people (I'm not going to name names) managed to get their ships duplicated by petitioning the same loss twice. It's because of people like that, that they need to be so strict on this matter. Total agreement.
Kerala Trivum State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:11:00 - [10] You can take any thing to either extreem, Reinburse to many, or to little. I was 100% peed off when I lost a very expensive ship to a bug where my auto pilot was set to high sec and it took me to low sec. CCP felt this was not a tangible reason for a reimbursement.
Doonoo Boonoo Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:17:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Wild Rho Summary, give people an inch and they take a mile. If CCP didn't stick strictly to the logs people would abuse the system. This is so true it isn't even funny. At one point CCP reimbursed pretty much EVERY loss. Result? Certain people (I'm not going to name names) managed to get their ships duplicated by petitioning the same loss twice. It's because of people like that, that they need to be so strict on this matter. Total agreement. Then I would say it's down to CCP for processing 2 Ship loss petitions and not having 'logs' to show who was reimbursed what and when. Also,what proof do you have that 'some people' have done this on purpose and how many people simply resubmitted a petition that took a long time for CCP to resolve?
Treelox Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:19:00 - [12] Originally by: Kerala Trivum You can take any thing to either extreem, Reinburse to many, or to little. I was 100% peed off when I lost a very expensive ship to a bug where my auto pilot was set to high sec and it took me to low sec. CCP felt this was not a tangible reason for a reimbursement. What was the little slider on your AP setting set to? I hope it was set to 49 or higher, otherwise you done did it to yourself. --
Porsches Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12 CCP never really cared about reeimbursement.. In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell. For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl.
Esmenet Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Esmenet on 14/03/2008 12:45:31 Originally by: Porsches Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12 CCP never really cared about reeimbursement.. In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell. Reimbursing for lag is a stupid idea. I'm happy CCP does not do this. Engage brain if you dont understand why. Quote: You can take any thing to either extreem, Reinburse to many, or to little. I was 100% peed off when I lost a very expensive ship to a bug where my auto pilot was set to high sec and it took me to low sec. CCP felt this was not a tangible reason for a reimbursement. Dont you even check the route? Massive fail.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Porsches Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12 CCP never really cared about reeimbursement.. In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell. For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl. What are you on about? CCP's policy has never to reimburse just for lag, only for things which show up in logs, all PvP'rs know that. CCP really have two fair choices open to them: 1/ To continue to look at reimbursement petitions as they do now, looking for confirmed reasons for ship losses which were their fault. or 2/ Don't reimburse at all. I'm glad they do #1, but I'd be equally happy with #2. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Treelox Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.14 12:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Porsches Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12 CCP never really cared about reeimbursement.. In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell. For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl. While I do detect your sarcasim, I think you need to understand somethings. Lag is a tricky wench to control. Lag can come from many places; Lag of your machine trying to load 500ships on the grid Lag of your machine trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with your ISP Lag of your ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500 ships with the internet backbone Lag of the internet backbone trying to send/receive data for those 500ships around the world to London Lag of CCP's ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with the internet backbone Lag of CCP's Servers trying to deal with the data for those 500ships on the grid Lag of CCP's Database trying to provide the servers the data to work with. What you must understand is that the lag can come from one, a few or all of these factors at any given time. While CCP may at times be responsible for the lag, that same lag will most likely cause their "logging" software to lag behind its lag logging. The only way you can be "certain" that the lag is fully on CCP's side, is when the Node crashes. --
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Treelox While I do detect your sarcasim, I think you need to understand somethings. Lag is a tricky wench to control. Lag can come from many places; Lag of your machine trying to load 500ships on the grid Lag of your machine trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with your ISP Lag of your ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500 ships with the internet backbone Lag of the internet backbone trying to send/receive data for those 500ships around the world to London Lag of CCP's ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with the internet backbone Lag of CCP's Servers trying to deal with the data for those 500ships on the grid Lag of CCP's Database trying to provide the servers the data to work with. What you must understand is that the lag can come from one, a few or all of these factors at any given time. While CCP may at times be responsible for the lag, that same lag will most likely cause their "logging" software to lag behind its lag logging. The only way you can be "certain" that the lag is fully on CCP's side, is when the Node crashes. If all 500 people get it at the same time, it isn't just a coincidence and that all the players computers suck, it means that its the 3rd party (being CCP). You can't dispute the fact. _______________
ArchenTheGreat D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:08:00 - [18] Originally by: CCP Prism X But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's not true. Recently I have lost ship in fleet fight. Lag was so horrible I couldn't turn on my tank modules and finally server died. I think you have in logs stated when node dies, right? Unfortunately GM reply was something like this: we have internal policy to not reimburse fleet fights (even if we know we screwed). So the most common situation when reimbursement is needed (lagged fleet fight) is ignored by you EVEN if you have proofs of YOUR failures. I can quote petition numbers if you want proofs.
Agif UnderDog Industries Total Eclipse Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:13:00 - [19] I run what you might call a super computer and also have a super fast connection and awesome ping to EVE;s servers When ever you are faced with a petition about CCP's server being laggy thus you lost your ship and this is the pain int he arse way about it but contact your ISP and ask for load logs at that particular moment in time. (My ISP gave me mine) and then in your mail post your ping to the eves server (CMD promt or use a Prog.) and display these results in your claim and CCP really does not have a leg to stand on except mb your PC crapped out on you at that particular moment. Every loss i have claimed has been reimbursed using this method as i guess after having done my homework it seems ccp was at fault and the fact most of the time i was D"syncyed but a screenie showed i was not aided my claims. Do your job and they will do theirs. Writing "i lost my ship cuz ur stuffz is borked" is not going to get ur stuff back :P You may think im talking bollox but meh try it be honest and you should come out ok. /Agif --------------- EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08
Porsches Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:17:00 - [20] Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Treelox While I do detect your sarcasim, I think you need to understand somethings. Lag is a tricky wench to control. Lag can come from many places; [list] Lag of your machine trying to load 500ships on the grid Lag of your machine trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with your ISP Lag of your ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500 ships with the internet backbone
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:18:00 - [21] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: CCP Prism X But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's not true. Recently I have lost ship in fleet fight. Lag was so horrible I couldn't turn on my tank modules and finally server died. I think you have in logs stated when node dies, right? Unfortunately GM reply was something like this: we have internal policy to not reimburse fleet fights (even if we know we screwed). So the most common situation when reimbursement is needed (lagged fleet fight) is ignored by you EVEN if you have proofs of YOUR failures. I can quote petition numbers if you want proofs. because them tank mods can really save your ass in a fleet fight only ship loss I ever even felt was petitionable was on angel strike 10/10 (level 3 storyline with a bunch of battleships in the final pocket) and ended up not petitioning because I realized it was my own fault. don't get me started on losing drones to disconnects (not ccps fault disconnects at least)
Loyal Servant Viper Intel Squad	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:24:00 - [22] Problem is their 'logs' are bogus. Sorry, but this 'it does not show in our logs' argument is just... utter bs. Fail. So, why is ccp messing with my sig?
HandSoLow 05 Tiamat Ancients	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:24:00 - [23] Im giving all this nonsense up, I have complained about the downtime, and how poor I am in real life, CCP doesnt care at all. I cant afford another GTC, Im in a lot of debt...ship loses LOL..they dont care about their customers, nevermind their ships. With only 17 days left on my account, no job [in real life], no credit cards and only 2 million in my wallet...looks like due to CCP's downtime thats delaying me from getting 180mil to pay for Eve will never happen. I probably wont be able to get that ISK to pay for a GTC, so Goodbye Eve, after 17 days my account is closed and will probably have 170mil in my account..with those days taken away from me due to downtime that small additional 10mil i could have got will never happen, which means I wont be able to play Eve for a yea until I can pay my credit card bill...they have just lost a member :( And I dont want to go :( - Quick Chewy, pass me the quaffe!
Agif UnderDog Industries Total Eclipse Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:25:00 - [24] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: CCP Prism X But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's not true. Recently I have lost ship in fleet fight. Lag was so horrible I couldn't turn on my tank modules and finally server died. I think you have in logs stated when node dies, right? Unfortunately GM reply was something like this: we have internal policy to not reimburse fleet fights (even if we know we screwed). So the most common situation when reimbursement is needed (lagged fleet fight) is ignored by you EVEN if you have proofs of YOUR failures. I can quote petition numbers if you want proofs. Fleet is a big dif to the norm gameplay ie. in missions mobile small gangs etc where we are under the impression that lagg shud not be present. You go into a mass fleet engagement knowing damn well the outcome is going to be who can turn the modules on first... So as you decided it was necessary to fight in that manner you know what your expecting and its just a new game mechanic. (Be it crap) /Agif --------------- EvEmissions - Level 5 Missions - Updated 22/01/08
DrefsabZN SteelWolves Final Unity	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:25:00 - [25] You know what I would like to see a system that takes the logs held at CCP's end onto a sperate box that then parses them so they can be searched and viewed by the User as well as CCP. Obviously this would be account restricted so you can only view your own logs. With this and clear guidelines as to whats is reimbursable and what is not uses will be able to see clearly what is a valid and what is not a valid petition. I can already think if several ways this could be put in place but without knowing a little more about the way the logs are generated and stored its hard to come up with and definitive technical solutions to this.
Cotton Tail Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:26:00 - [26] Edited by: Cotton Tail on 14/03/2008 13:30:53 Originally by: Agif I run what you might call a super computer and also have a super fast connection and awesome ping to EVE;s servers When ever you are faced with a petition about CCP's server being laggy thus you lost your ship and this is the pain int he arse way about it but contact your ISP and ask for load logs at that particular moment in time. (My ISP gave me mine) and then in your mail post your ping to the eves server (CMD promt or use a Prog.) and display these results in your claim and CCP really does not have a leg to stand on except mb your PC crapped out on you at that particular moment. Every loss i have claimed has been reimbursed using this method as i guess after having done my homework it seems ccp was at fault and the fact most of the time i was D"syncyed but a screenie showed i was not aided my claims. Do your job and they will do theirs. Writing "i lost my ship cuz ur stuffz is borked" is not going to get ur stuff back :P You may think im talking bollox but meh try it be honest and you should come out ok. /Agif If that works then good for you, however I agree with the sentiment that CCP shouldn't be reimbursing for simple things like lag where people willingly enter into situations they know is going to be bad. Avon has the right idea though, CCP could take away ship loss petitions and there would be support for it. The biggest problem at the moment is the percieved randomness of the responses, some people get reimbursements in identical situations to others who have have been rejected. That could all be down to the tone and presentation of the petition, but it shows some uncertainty. To be honest I'd be happiest if CCP had a simple rule, if you undock and you get killed legitimately by an entity (NPC or PC) then the loss stands. In a game where you are continuously putting your isk on the line to take away someone elses, it's unfair that they can magik theirs back yet your risk still stands. It's the old EVE adage, don't fly what you cannot afford to lose, be a man and take the loss and learn from it. CCP shouldn't let people throw their rattle out of the pram and give it back to them.
Washell Olivaw Washies Corp	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:27:00 - [27] Originally by: Kerala Trivum You can take any thing to either extreem, Reinburse to many, or to little. I was 100% peed off when I lost a very expensive ship to a bug where my auto pilot was set to high sec and it took me to low sec. CCP felt this was not a tangible reason for a reimbursement. It is a preferred setting. If there is no hi-sec route from point a to b, it will include low sec systems. Always check your route. I'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 13:57:00 - [28] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Porsches Edited by: Porsches on 14/03/2008 12:35:12 CCP never really cared about reeimbursement.. In Fleet battles the amount of lost ships due to lag and inability to warp out or even ask for shield/armor logistics before the ship was dead can prolly reach 90% or more. That alone would make CCP responsable to reeimburse almost all ships lost in a battle and they dont. They dont even recognize their server code is so bad that it is impossible to have a big fleet battle in 0.0 without everyone lagged out to hell. For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl. While I do detect your sarcasim, I think you need to understand somethings. Lag is a tricky wench to control. Lag can come from many places; Lag of your machine trying to load 500ships on the grid Lag of your machine trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with your ISP Lag of your ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500 ships with the internet backbone Lag of the internet backbone trying to send/receive data for those 500ships around the world to London Lag of CCP's ISP trying to send/recieve data for those 500ships with the internet backbone Lag of CCP's Servers trying to deal with the data for those 500ships on the grid Lag of CCP's Database trying to provide the servers the data to work with. What you must understand is that the lag can come from one, a few or all of these factors at any given time. While CCP may at times be responsible for the lag, that same lag will most likely cause their "logging" software to lag behind its lag logging. The only way you can be "certain" that the lag is fully on CCP's side, is when the Node crashes. They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Aprudena Gist They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about. orly? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:04:00 - [30] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Aprudena Gist They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about. orly? They didn't for the last three node crashes in and around delve.

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