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Ignoring ship loss petitions is a bad move CCP

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Treelox Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:07:00 - [31] Edited by: Treelox on 14/03/2008 14:07:23 Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Avon Originally by: Aprudena Gist They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about. orly? They didn't for the last three node crashes in and around delve. I have to agree with avon. I have had a ship reimbursed via petition for a node crash. Maybe its because I didnt write my petition request in an angry leet speak tinged way. I know that I have seen the way some people write their petitions and its no wonder that they dont get anywhere with the GM's, because their petitions are so difficult to understand with all the leet emo rage that is contained in them. --
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:08:00 - [32] Think of what would happen if CCP all reimbursed ship losses for fleet lag, say, anything longer than 1 minute activation time. 1. Fleet A brings 400 people, fleet B brings 300 2. Fleet A defeats fleet B with heavy losses and heavy lag 3. Fleet B petitions all losses claiming lag of over 1 minute, CCP confirms and replaces all losses 4. Fleet A realizes Fleet B has done this and does the same 5. Fleet battles are now meaningless, and CCP's GMs have just had to file 700 petitions ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Treelox Edited by: Treelox on 14/03/2008 14:07:23 Originally by: Aprudena Gist Originally by: Avon Originally by: Aprudena Gist They Don't Reiburse Node Crashes so i have no idea what your talking about. orly? They didn't for the last three node crashes in and around delve. I have to agree with avon. I have had a ship reimbursed via petition for a node crash. Maybe its because I didnt write my petition request in an angry leet speak tinged way. I know that I have seen the way some people write their petitions and its no wonder that they dont get anywhere with the GM's, because their petitions are so difficult to understand with all the leet emo rage that is contained in them. well your kinda dumb for raging in a petition.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:14:00 - [34] Edited by: Dramund on 14/03/2008 14:13:58 When I was running UT servers and someone demanded to reimburse their negative frag from their plummet into toxic goo cause of lag, I woulda kicked em from the server.
ArchenTheGreat D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Dramund Edited by: Dramund on 14/03/2008 14:13:58 When I was running UT servers and someone demanded to reimburse their negative frag from their plummet into toxic goo cause of lag, I woulda kicked em from the server. In UT you dont work for frag for couple of months. And it doesn't involve hundreds of people's work to score this frag. In EVE some things you can only get by hard work of many players. If you lose a lot of your work because of game bug you will probably expect reimbursement. I got reimbursed ships from fleet fights before. Granted it was in 2006, when node crashed during fleet figth with 600 people in local. I don't petition every fleet loss, even if there was a lag because I know it's hard to prove it. But in this particular case (node crashes) I am really ****ed CCP refused my petition. And it wasn't petition with insults etc.
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:29:00 - [36] Edited by: Dramund on 14/03/2008 14:29:35 Originally by: ArchenTheGreat In UT you dont work for frag for couple of months. And it doesn't involve hundreds of people's work to score this frag. In EVE some things you can only get by hard work of many players. If you lose a lot of your work because of game bug you will probably expect reimbursement. I got reimbursed ships from fleet fights before. Granted it was in 2006, when node crashed during fleet figth with 600 people in local. I don't petition every fleet loss, even if there was a lag because I know it's hard to prove it. But in this particular case (node crashes) I am really ***ed CCP refused my petition. And it wasn't petition with insults etc. Here is another fun fact: If you think of anything in a game as work*, quit now.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:31:00 - [37] CCP, what you don't realize is that you don't just have a responsibility to prove that an actual reimbursement is deserved under any given circumstances. The burden of proof should be on the developer to prove that the reimbursement was NOT deserved, and a woefully inadequate logging system is not a viable excuse. I.e. If an insured ship vanishes from my hangar and I do not recieve an insurance payout, the onus should be on CCP to prove what happened to it. Not just simply state that you cannot take action because you don't know what happened..... if the logs need to reflect the data needed to make these decisions then perhaps the breadth of data the logs record should be increased. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:34:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Prism X I understand that it sucks not getting a fair reimbursement. No argument there. But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's very true that most of you are asking for legit reimbursements. Only a handful of people file obviously fake reimbursements (that does not make the rest of them legit, the other group is unknown and, as I said, we can't reimburse those). On the flip side there is also a handful of people who would jump at the chance to accuse us of whatever they can and we can't give them fuel for their fire by reimbursing inconclusive losses. It's not 100% accurate justice but at least it's fair in it's inaccuracies as it applies to everyone. I don't think this response will make you feel any better about these blanket repsonses but I hope it clears up the reasons for them. That's better than being in the dark, no? Considering the private nature of GM responces and petitions.. who would know about unfair reimbursement petitions? It's not like the guy who got his ship back is going to tell everybody on the forums and in game about how he screwed CCP for a free ship. It's not like any other player has any tools available of checking how the other player got his ship. The threat to CCP seems minimal. And there comes a point where a little accusation of CCP is less harmful than 100s or 1000s of upset customers. It's not right to push all the suffering on players just to avoid any hint of pain yourself.
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:36:00 - [39] Originally by: CCP Prism X But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". what logs? you never had any logs showing anything before. an example here, several members of our alliance have been popped by a friendly pos set up properly and all of them got the "our logs dont show any bugs doing that" and a few days after it is patchday and lo and behold that bug is listed and fixed. you are deliberatly screwing over lots of your customers.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:36:00 - [40] Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 14:36:56 Originally by: Haradgrim CCP, what you don't realize is that you don't just have a responsibility to prove that an actual reimbursement is deserved under any given circumstances. The burden of proof should be on the developer to prove that the reimbursement was NOT deserved, and a woefully inadequate logging system is not a viable excuse. So CCP should now be investigating the internet and popping around your house for a quick peek at your PC? Posts like this are why CCP should scrap the petition system tbh. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:39:00 - [41] Edited by: Tarminic on 14/03/2008 14:39:57 Originally by: Ephemeron It's not like the guy who got his ship back is going to tell everybody on the forums and in game about how he screwed CCP for a free ship. It's not like any other player has any tools available of checking how the other player got his ship. No, but I bet that he'd tell his corp or his alliance. Quote: And there comes a point where a little accusation of CCP is less harmful than 100s or 1000s of upset customers. It's not right to push all the suffering on players just to avoid any hint of pain yourself. Are you sure about that? CCP's credibility is lacking in the minds of some players following the T20 incident. Regardless of whether said suspicion is justified or not, Goonswarm has proven that it can be used against them. Originally by: Haradgrim CCP, what you don't realize is that you don't just have a responsibility to prove that an actual reimbursement is deserved under any given circumstances. The burden of proof should be on the developer to prove that the reimbursement was NOT deserved, and a woefully inadequate logging system is not a viable excuse. And how are they supposed to find out if your router was having issues instead of their server? It's a nice thought, but simply not possible in many cases. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
W3370Pi4 Lords Of Kaos Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:40:00 - [42] had the same problem in an ice field when warping out to flee from Rats i was still taking damage even while warping out to Safe spot :S i got some answer like " we didnt find anything in the database" well im pretty sure if you look 5 minutes u don't find anything . but whatever all good now , no hard feelings just give me "ambulation" and u can still have my money
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:45:00 - [43] Originally by: W3370Pi4 had the same problem in an ice field when warping out to flee from Rats i was still taking damage even while warping out to Safe spot :S i got some answer like " we didnt find anything in the database" well im pretty sure if you look 5 minutes u don't find anything . but whatever all good now , no hard feelings just give me "ambulation" and u can still have my money That is a classic lag death / desync, and it is exatly that sort of thing that can't be reimbursed. You died because, as far as the server was concerned, you were still at the ice belt and never warped away. The logs aren't going to show anything other than that, otherwise you wouldn't have died. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Treelox Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:45:00 - [44] Originally by: Aprudena Gist well your kinda dumb for raging in a petition. I think a lot of people do it without even knowing that is what they are doing. --
Dramund Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Tarminic And how are they supposed to find out if your router was having issues instead of their server? It's a nice thought, but simply not possible in many cases. Not to mention anyone who knows what a standby button does can get all the free ships they want if the log doesn't need proof.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:48:00 - [46] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Aprudena Gist well your kinda dumb for raging in a petition. I think a lot of people do it without even knowing that is what they are doing. Indeed - perhaps there should be some kind of petition help that states how to write a good (well-worded, non-angry) petition if there isn't already. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:48:00 - [47] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 14:36:56 Originally by: Haradgrim CCP, what you don't realize is that you don't just have a responsibility to prove that an actual reimbursement is deserved under any given circumstances. The burden of proof should be on the developer to prove that the reimbursement was NOT deserved, and a woefully inadequate logging system is not a viable excuse. So CCP should now be investigating the internet and popping around your house for a quick peek at your PC? Posts like this are why CCP should scrap the petition system tbh. Whoah there! I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Just pointing out its a pretty failed policy if you have an insurance program and one of the insured ships disappears without the payout occuring and they claim they can't tell anything is amiss! I'm not even sure what you think I meant. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
BiggHOSS Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:48:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Prism X I understand that it sucks not getting a fair reimbursement. No argument there. But I hope I can get you to understand that we must be able to defend ourself against accusations of unfair reimbursement. Hence the logs must show something which we can use to say "This was not CCP preference but a clear case of the logs showing a reimbursement in order". It's very true that most of you are asking for legit reimbursements. Only a handful of people file obviously fake reimbursements (that does not make the rest of them legit, the other group is unknown and, as I said, we can't reimburse those). On the flip side there is also a handful of people who would jump at the chance to accuse us of whatever they can and we can't give them fuel for their fire by reimbursing inconclusive losses. It's not 100% accurate justice but at least it's fair in it's inaccuracies as it applies to everyone. I don't think this response will make you feel any better about these blanket repsonses but I hope it clears up the reasons for them. That's better than being in the dark, no? If you are lookins still then how about clicking on a gate, getting the session change in progress message, and not jumping through the gate and dying? Insurance dosn't pay for rigs, which are the only real expense on Haulers.
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:54:00 - [49] Originally by: Avon That is a classic lag death / desync, and it is exatly that sort of thing that can't be reimbursed. You died because, as far as the server was concerned, you were still at the ice belt and never warped away. The logs aren't going to show anything other than that, otherwise you wouldn't have died. Why would he stay at the ice belt long enough for belt rats to kill him? Did the rats scramble him? Did other players scramble him? What sane person would suicide a ship to belt rats and then petition it back? I know that logs don't show everything, but there is also such a thing as common sense.
Kerala Trivum State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Treelox Originally by: Kerala Trivum You can take any thing to either extreem, Reinburse to many, or to little. I was 100% peed off when I lost a very expensive ship to a bug where my auto pilot was set to high sec and it took me to low sec. CCP felt this was not a tangible reason for a reimbursement. What was the little slider on your AP setting set to? I hope it was set to 49 or higher, otherwise you done did it to yourself. Yes it was set correctly and the computer that is used has never had the settings changed on it as I use seperate computers for sperate accounts. I was told that they had no logs so no reimbursement.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:56:00 - [51] Originally by: Haradgrim [ Whoah there! I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Just pointing out its a pretty failed policy if you have an insurance program and one of the insured ships disappears without the payout occuring and they claim they can't tell anything is amiss! I'm not even sure what you think I meant. Maybe someone took it from your hangar? The point is, unless there is a bug or problem their end involved, and CCP can verify it, then nothing should be reimbursed. It should not come down to a judgement call, it should be baised only on what facts are to hand (even if you feel more logs should be available). The only alternative to a policy like that would be one of no reimbursement petitions at all. Putting CCP in a position where they need to make a judgement call is potentially worse than someone not getting their stuff back. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:59:00 - [52] Edited by: Avon on 14/03/2008 14:59:59 Originally by: Ephemeron Why would he stay at the ice belt long enough for belt rats to kill him? Did the rats scramble him? Did other players scramble him? What sane person would suicide a ship to belt rats and then petition it back? I know that logs don't show everything, but there is also such a thing as common sense. He could have fallen asleep, or gone to buy a pizza, or had a power-cut, or his internet may have dropped, or a router between him and the server may have been stolen by aliens as part of a sinister invasion plan. The point is, none of those things are under CCP's control, and nor can they investigate them. With that in mind, they can not reimburse the loss because it is not their fault - the server shows the guy's ship dying at an ice-belt to npcs, nothing more. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 14:59:00 - [53] Originally by: Haradgrim Whoah there! I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Just pointing out its a pretty failed policy if you have an insurance program and one of the insured ships disappears without the payout occuring and they claim they can't tell anything is amiss! Ah, that's more clear now. However there still the issue of proving that it happened, which isn't always easy. Originally by: BiggHOSS If you are lookins still then how about clicking on a gate, getting the session change in progress message, and not jumping through the gate and dying? Insurance dosn't pay for rigs, which are the only real expense on Haulers. Read above - if CCP can't prove it, they can't reimburse you. What if an error like that occurred because the server thought you jumped through but the client didn't? Yes, you'll respond with "i can send them my logs/screenshots," but they can't be used in any kind of reimbursements because CCP has no way to tell whether you altered the logs or screenshots you submitted. I could jump through a gate, get killed in a gatecamp, and then photoshop a screenshot of me taking damage on the wrong side of the gate otherwise. ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2
Lucia Warbler Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:01:00 - [54] On my time in Eve, only once I have asked for reimbursement due to a buy order expiring and me not getting my ISK back. My petition was answered after 6 months in a form of a shiny new ship (the same I wanted to buy via buy order). Of course, having waiting 6 months, I had already bought that particular ship and would've preferred ISK, but I don't complain. I wasn't exactly expecting any kind of reimbursement at that point. The moral story here is that it's just pixels. Pixels on your screen. Pixels in CCP's database. You'll do fine without these pixels, trust me on this one.
Haradgrim Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:16:00 - [55] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Haradgrim [ Whoah there! I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. Just pointing out its a pretty failed policy if you have an insurance program and one of the insured ships disappears without the payout occuring and they claim they can't tell anything is amiss! I'm not even sure what you think I meant. Maybe someone took it from your hangar? The point is, unless there is a bug or problem their end involved, and CCP can verify it, then nothing should be reimbursed. It should not come down to a judgement call, it should be baised only on what facts are to hand (even if you feel more logs should be available). The only alternative to a policy like that would be one of no reimbursement petitions at all. Putting CCP in a position where they need to make a judgement call is potentially worse than someone not getting their stuff back. If the ship is taken from a hangar then CCP can see that its still in existence, not to mention its insurance should still be valid. My point was; in cases where there is a serious logical fallacy in assuming nothing has gone wrong, especially in circumstances like I described previously, CCP should have an obligation to at the very least provide an explanation if not reimburse. And with respect to situation like that, I'm not suggesting that anyone make a judgment call. What I am asking for is that CCP provide their CS people with the adequate tools to do their job. There are situation that "should" be logged (like friendly pos's firing on you) but clearly aren't at this point in time and this needs to be fixed. As far as reimbursement due to things like disconnects, computer failure, etc, etc, I am in complete agreement with you, but there are alot of situations that arise that are not as black and white. Originally by: CCP Oveur ...every forum whine feels like a baby pony is getting killed
Kolmogorow Freedom Resources	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:19:00 - [56] Originally by: Porsches For CCP as we all know there is NO LAG ever... really never ever, so ofc they dont reeimburse ppl. Originally by: Esmenet Reimbursing for lag is a stupid idea. I'm happy CCP does not do this. That's wrong. I made all my reimbursement petition (3 or 4) due to (extreme) lag. They were always accepted by CCP. It was always in missions with a load of rats attacking me at the same time at server peak times. Just at the moment I have an open petition for being killed in a huge gate camp. Regarding lag and frozen client there was no difference to the ship loss in missions. I am curious how they will decide. I expect a reimbursement because they know that their game doesn't really work as it should with more than x shooting objects at the time and at the same place.
Vanessa Vasquez planet eyeQ Ultio Animi Causa	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:22:00 - [57] Well, i understand CCPs argument here, but from my point of view, it's not very logical. Lemme explain: In my early days, a lost my shiny rigged Ferox on a lvl3 massive attack, after doing lvl3s for about a month without a single loss. I always aligned to a station/stargate and hit the warp to button when shields dropped below 25%. This time, i did the same thing, and my ship also got into warp. At least, visually. I got the warp sequence, i got the warp sound etc., but i still got hit for more than 10 seconds while enganged in warp. I dunno what caused this, but i did not get reimbursted. Well, i did not get any reimburstments nor help of all my 5 or 6 petitions so far, but thats another story. The point here is, that this attitude made me really want to quit EvE, though i absolutely love the game itself. And I think its easy to understand why, as one spend a lot amount of time gathering stuff/wealth and then loosing it completely without fault is nothing that makes you shout out a load hurray. Imo CCP/GM's have to handle this by visual adjustment. Lets take my case for example. GM sees, its a new player. GM sees, he doesn't loose ships for a long period of time.GM sees it's the first petition. If GM doesn't reimburst at all, the player will of course be ****ed. And what would be so bad if he gets at least a partialy reimburstment, even it showed nothing unusual on the logs (as always...)? The ship definitely got destroyed, so there's no more ISK here added to eve. Showing some "goodwill" in some cases would be a smart descicion in my opinion - having much more good effects than bad. just my 2 cents
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:26:00 - [58] Originally by: Avon ..With that in mind, they can not reimburse the loss because it is not their fault - the server shows the guy's ship dying at an ice-belt to npcs, nothing more. This is the type of mindset I want to try change. It's the difference between defensive help and assertive help. For example, if you see a car accident happen right in front of you, and there aren't many people nearby, would you stop and help the injured get out of the car? Or would you say "those people were stupid, good thing I had nothing to do with it" and keep driving? You have the right to do that. But what if you were a member of police force, but currently off duty? GMs have a job of helping people, they are not just random CCP employees. They more than anyone should want to be assertive in helping those who are hurt, even if they don't feel like it.
Avon Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:26:00 - [59] Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez Well, i understand CCPs argument here, but from my point of view, it's not very logical. Lemme explain: In my early days, a lost my shiny rigged Ferox on a lvl3 massive attack, after doing lvl3s for about a month without a single loss. I always aligned to a station/stargate and hit the warp to button when shields dropped below 25%. This time, i did the same thing, and my ship also got into warp. At least, visually. I got the warp sequence, i got the warp sound etc., but i still got hit for more than 10 seconds while enganged in warp. I dunno what caused this, but i did not get reimbursted. Well, i did not get any reimburstments nor help of all my 5 or 6 petitions so far, but thats another story. The point here is, that this attitude made me really want to quit EvE, though i absolutely love the game itself. And I think its easy to understand why, as one spend a lot amount of time gathering stuff/wealth and then loosing it completely without fault is nothing that makes you shout out a load hurray. Imo CCP/GM's have to handle this by visual adjustment. Lets take my case for example. GM sees, its a new player. GM sees, he doesn't loose ships for a long period of time.GM sees it's the first petition. If GM doesn't reimburst at all, the player will of course be ****ed. And what would be so bad if he gets at least a partialy reimburstment, even it showed nothing unusual on the logs (as always...)? The ship definitely got destroyed, so there's no more ISK here added to eve. Showing some "goodwill" in some cases would be a smart descicion in my opinion - having much more good effects than bad. just my 2 cents I'm pretty good with words, but I am struggling to pick ones which would convey quite how strongly I disagree with you without being insulting, so I'll just leave it at that. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:30:00 - [60] Originally by: Vanessa Vasquez Lets take my case for example. GM sees, its a new player. GM sees, he doesn't loose ships for a long period of time.GM sees it's the first petition. If GM doesn't reimburst at all, the player will of course be **ed. And what would be so bad if he gets at least a partialy reimburstment, even it showed nothing unusual on the logs (as always...)? The ship definitely got destroyed, so there's no more ISK here added to eve. Showing some "goodwill" in some cases would be a smart descicion in my opinion - having much more good effects than bad. CCP should treat all customers - no matter their age - exactly the same. It wouldn't be fair otherwise. Originally by:** Ephemeron GMs have a job of helping people, they are not just random CCP employees. They more than anyone should want to be assertive in helping those who are hurt, even if they don't feel like it. But how can you do that without opening up the system to abuse? ---------------- Tarminic - 33 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.79.2

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