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Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.15 23:01:00 - [61] Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood As to guns and democracy ... our democracy was created back in the day BECAUSE we all had guns. Asking us to give them all up now ... well ... maybe you're right and we don't need them ... but ... if you are wrong ... and we give them all up ... we won't be getting them back. The FACT that we do all have the right to own weapons pretty much insures that we will keep our freedom. This is wrong. The image of the US having as its only defense from the ebil British a well armed populace is nothing like how it was. Gun ownership was rather low back then. Guns were expensive and unless you needed one for survival out in the wilderness you simply didn't bother. Nor did the Founding Fathers see gun ownership as a ward against the government. Read the Constitution again. They specifically note gun ownership in the realm of having a militia. Back then there was not really a standing, professional army. They saw this as a means to have an armed force that would be somewhat easy to call upon if needed to defend the nation...not so the people could defend themselves from the government. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.15 23:22:00 - [62] The fact is a criminal with a gun is more dangerous than a criminal with a knife, end of story. If the criminal has a gun and the people being robbed or held hostage or whatever don't then they are likely to not resist, correct (they are more likely to resist when the offending person has a knife.. but then can someone with a knife hold an entire building hostage?) When the both the attacked and the defender have guns you enter the realm in which gun fights occur and innocents are hurt, as in America at current, it doesn't make any logical sense for people to have guns to defend themselves, by nature guns are an offensive weapon. (as are knives, but they are also kitchen implements) i cant begin to understand why people would think that everyone having guns makes people safer, as the only modernized country which allows it is also the country with the highest gun crime rate by 100s of percent. I seem to remember that there are about as many gun deaths in new york in a week as in the entire of the UK in a year. (or similar, i admittedly don't know the stats, but then i have more useful things to remember). In terms of defense it makes much more sense the ban guns totally other than for hunting and then have people trained in proper self defense against bladed weapons.. does it not? I work at a shop, we are told to do whatever an attacker wants, activate the silent alarm and wait for the police. Having a gun would mean that someone dies, whatever the outcome of the fight. And thats another point.. A knife fight, injuries, seriously sometimes life threatening, combined with the aforementioned difference between pulling a trigger and stabbing someone. Gun fight? serious injuries if hit, death of those involved often and extreme danger to anyone within a close distance of the fight. as for the crazy American in Germany? sounds like the police handled it perfectly. Assumption that a targeted firearm will be used is the best policy IMO.
Arron S Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2008.03.15 23:23:00 - [63] Edited by: Arron S on 15/03/2008 23:25:40 The US did not Save Europe alone in WW2 you nub, the USSR helped a lot, The US have for credit to saving the Pacific. You should Also read about the Battle of Britten, the UK was able to hold off the Germans, and prevent them from landing in the UK in 1940. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Mtthias Clemi The Space Bastards	Posted - 2008.03.15 23:29:00 - [64] Granted my earlier post is my person views there is always the other side of the coin! everyone should read this. While my post is true at the moment, it is changing. IMPORTANT LINK
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 01:42:00 - [65] Originally by: Arron S The US did not Save Europe alone in WW2 you nub, the USSR helped a lot, and the USSR had a more difficult battle then the US and other Allies did. The US have the credit to saving the Pacific. You should Also read about the Battle of Brittain, the UK was able to hold off the Germans, and prevent them from landing in the UK in 1940. I personaly don't beleive the majority of Americans are stupid enough to beleive they actualy won the war themselves. They were a side in a coalition and in terms of war debts royaly screwed over Britain. Yes you lost lives of soldiers, be glad thats all you lost. Don't you think theres an element of self preservation in dealing with Germany while it's still in Europe and Africa before it moves on America? And hopefully we can start removing American bases out of Europe, we have enough firepower here allready to deal with allmost anything thrown at us. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.03.16 02:09:00 - [66] Edited by: Kyanzes on 16/03/2008 02:10:00 Originally by: Kirjava Originally by: Arron S The US did not Save Europe alone in WW2 you nub, the USSR helped a lot, and the USSR had a more difficult battle then the US and other Allies did. The US have the credit to saving the Pacific. You should Also read about the Battle of Brittain, the UK was able to hold off the Germans, and prevent them from landing in the UK in 1940. I personaly don't beleive the majority of Americans are stupid enough to beleive they actualy won the war themselves. They were a side in a coalition and in terms of war debts royaly screwed over Britain. Yes you lost lives of soldiers, be glad thats all you lost. Don't you think theres an element of self preservation in dealing with Germany while it's still in Europe and Africa before it moves on America? And hopefully we can start removing American bases out of Europe, we have enough firepower here allready to deal with allmost anything thrown at us. No. It was the US that really liberated Europe. Alone. (sarcasm meter over measurable limits) United States, military deaths WW2: 416,800 United States, civilian deaths WW2: 1,700 Soviet Union, military deaths WW2: 10,700,000 Soviet Union, civilian deaths WW2: 11,400,000 I appreciate the loss, but I have my doubts that the US really did this alone. Linkage --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 02:18:00 - [67] Yes, look at British Civilians, 67,800. And 382,600 military deaths, from Britain which is almost trippled in total population by the USA. How many cities needed to be rebuilt in America incidentaly? Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Scoundrelus Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.16 02:24:00 - [68] Originally by: Magnus Nordir Originally by: mentalmarsupial lol I still find it funny when people actually believe that "an armed society is a safe society" crap. No matter how you spin it the facts point the other way. IMO if you want / need a gun and are competent then file for a licence but I dont think guns are needed for anything other than shoots / conservation etc... I mean if someone has a gun they will probably shoot first and all you can do is provide consequences not actual protection (alike concord). hey guess im just a country bumpkin In a society where people can't get guns legally, by definition, only criminals (and the potentially oppressive law enforcement) will have them, leaving the law-abiding citizens defenceless. How the **** can you claim such a society is safer than one in which everyone is armed? I say make a law that makes in mandatory to carry a firearm for everyone above the age of 16 and of sound mental health (with appropriate safety training included, naturally). And along that same line of reasoning, all countries should have nukes. Not just the ones a "certain country" allows.
Imperator Jora'h Hedion University	Posted - 2008.03.16 02:28:00 - [69] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 16/03/2008 02:30:30 Originally by: Arron S Edited by: Arron S on 15/03/2008 23:29:44 Edited by: Arron S on 15/03/2008 23:25:40 The US did not Save Europe alone in WW2 you nub, the USSR helped a lot, and the USSR had a more difficult battle then the US and other Allies did. The US have the credit to saving the Pacific. You should Also read about the Battle of Britten, the UK was able to hold off the Germans, and prevent them from landing in the UK in 1940. The fact is Germany could not have been beaten without US intervention. It was not so much US troops as it was US production that made the difference (read up on Liberty Ships for an example...I forget the German general but one commented that he was floored at how many ships we produced...they could not sink them fast enough). Even the Soviets benefited massively from US aid (we provided scads of trucks and food for them allowing them to focus on tanks and troops). If it were not for US aid to Britain the Brits almost certainly would have been starved out. And while the Brits won the Battle of Britain on their own all that meant was Germany could not invade as they had planned to but there was no way Britain would have been able to re-take Europe back from Germany on its own. With the US in the war it forced Germany to fight a two-front war. If Germany had all its might to focus on the Soviets they likely would have prevailed there too (they almost did as it was early on). Citing the number of people killed in Russia versus US soldiers killed is also bogus. Stalin had purged the military so when the war started they had crap all for generals (really, really horrible) and were woefully undersupplied. What the Soviets did have was numbers and they tossed their troops into the grinder with abandon. It was frankly appalling but all they could do at first. By no means can the US say they did it all. Every country paid a horrible price and all contributed in a big way. But to suggest the US was just meh...thanks for showing up but not necessary is patently wrong. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Larice Seven Provinces	Posted - 2008.03.16 03:07:00 - [70] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The fact is Germany could not have been beaten without US intervention. It was not so much US troops as it was US production that made the difference (read up on Liberty Ships for an example...I forget the German general but one commented that he was floored at how many ships we produced...they could not sink them fast enough). Even the Soviets benefited massively from US aid (we provided scads of trucks and food for them allowing them to focus on tanks and troops). If it were not for US aid to Britain the Brits almost certainly would have been starved out. And while the Brits won the Battle of Britain on their own all that meant was Germany could not invade as they had planned to but there was no way Britain would have been able to re-take Europe back from Germany on its own. With the US in the war it forced Germany to fight a two-front war. If Germany had all its might to focus on the Soviets they likely would have prevailed there too (they almost did as it was early on). Citing the number of people killed in Russia versus US soldiers killed is also bogus. Stalin had purged the military so when the war started they had crap all for generals (really, really horrible) and were woefully undersupplied. What the Soviets did have was numbers and they tossed their troops into the grinder with abandon. It was frankly appalling but all they could do at first. By no means can the US say they did it all. Every country paid a horrible price and all contributed in a big way. But to suggest the US was just meh...thanks for showing up but not necessary is patently wrong. You're are correct, with the exception of a few nuances (which don't matter here). In defense of the person you quoted though, the US would not have beaten Germany alone either. The person Arron S responded to made it sound it was all USA which is blatantly wrong.
Aaron Ravenwood NorVor Ltd.	Posted - 2008.03.16 10:44:00 - [71] Ah cool. From Gun Control to WWII - I'd much rather argue about WWII. One last bit on gun control first. As I mentioned earlier, we have some specific reasons for having a high crime rate here. What the crime rate would be without guns, I don't know - but as I've said - getting rid of the guns simply isn't going to happen. It is a physical/practical impossibility so it really doesn't matter what any one would prefer - guns are here and they're here to stay. To those nations who don't have our internal problems - good for you. To those nations who have worse problems than we do - and many of you are in Europe - you have my commiserations. As to the Militias during the American Revolutionary War - those guys were all equipped with their OWN guns. Since they weren't about to go buy guns for these guys - it's implicit that these were guns they already had. As to dueling Cowboys? Only in the movies. WWI: The Russians Collapsed, the German's sent the excess troops west and made some significant progress against the Allies in 1918. Though not the major factor in doing so, the US Troops there contributed to stopping the German offensive - and were instrumental in forcing the German's back. Who would have eventually won without the US presence I can't say - but with the US - victory for the Allies was certain. WWII: Mobile Warfare in WWII was made possible by trucks - not tanks. The tanks were worthless without the fuel, ammunition and food the trucks hauled. It was American Trucks, delivered mostly through Iran, which made the Soviet Mobile Offensives Possible. Other Lend Lease items weren't needed that much - but - the large number of mobile units that you saw in the Russian Army was made possible by American Trucks. Yes - Russia Suffered greatly during the War but actually not as much as the Chinese, for whom the suffering had been going on since 1900. We'll never know what would have happened if the US hadn't intervened but because we did the Allies Victory was certain. And - for the record - yes the US could have beaten Germany by itself, it just would have taken longer and we largely did beat the Japanese by ourselves. The Cold War: Whether or not the Soviet Union would have invaded Western Europe or not had the US not been there - we will, again, never know. But because the US was there - they didn't. The NATO policy of Containment worked. After WWII the Allies Strategic Planners knew that all they had to do was wait the Soviets out and their Economic System would collapse of it's own weight - as it did. But ... while we did get a little help in Korea and a small amount of help in Vietnam we mostly had to fight those wars with our own people and those of S. Korea and S. Vietnam. Fighting those wars absorbed Soviet Resources for 20 years. Once we quit - those resources went into Africa, Latin America and the Middle East where they made a good bit of progress in the Comintern's strategy to ring the western powers in a string of third world countries loyal to the Soviets. I never said the US won WWII by itself. I said we saved Europe - which we did. Whether US troops are still needed there is somewhat questionable. The bases are handy in our role as the worlds police force (a job we shouldn't have to do but which given the lack of support and indecision of the UN we often do have to do) but those bases are subject to the agreement of the home country they're in and we've not always gotten full cooperation on that. I can to some extent understand how the Post Colonial Europeans have been traumatized into inactivity after fighting two world wars on their territory ... but the US still really shouldn't have to do so much of the worlds policing on it's own. It's a lot easier to sit back on your rear ends and make snide remarks about those people who are trying to do something than it is to get off you rear ends and help. For those of our allies who have helped that help is appreciated. . . .
Angela Toren Toren Shipyards	Posted - 2008.03.16 11:45:00 - [72] Welcome to europe. We don't like gun toting over here.
Brea Lafail Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:03:00 - [73] Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood It's a lot easier to sit back on your rear ends and make snide remarks about those people who are trying to do something than it is to get off you rear ends and help. For those of our allies who have helped that help is appreciated. Amen. I used to want to move to europe, but the more I hear y'all talking politics, I'll stick with North America. Here, at least we know we're being ****s. Also, the UN is dead.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 13:25:00 - [74] UN hasn't had power in my living memory (born 1990). For instance Tony Blair is the envoy of the "quarette", which is the USA, EU, Russia and the UN (aka everyone else) to the Middle East. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:38:00 - [75] Edited by: Sephra Star on 16/03/2008 15:40:08 I think everyone should bear in mind who was responsable for financing Adolph's rise to power as well as the German Industrial War machine. If you approach the subject like an investigative journalist the truth should make you very angry. Even the Grandfather of the current President Bush (Prescott Bush) was involved in laundering South American money to Germany through banks in New York. In fact the Bush Family fortune was made from investemnts in the German coal mining industry.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:40:00 - [76] As much as I dislike Bush, he and his grandfather are different people so can attribute no blame George Bush second. Hell if I did then what would I be letting myself in for Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:44:00 - [77] Edited by: Sephra Star on 16/03/2008 15:46:08 Originally by: Kirjava As much as I dislike Bush, he and his grandfather are different people so can attribute no blame George Bush second. Hell if I did then what would I be letting myself in for Birds of a feather flock together. Is it any surprise the current President Bush has turned America into an Overtly Fascist Police State and is using our armed forces to aggressively and beligerently invade other countries using the same forms of propaganda as Germany used in WW-2. The truth is it is not this President Bush doing it. He is after all just a puppet representing the agenda of the Fascist Globalist New World Order. The 4th Reich is alive and well.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.03.16 15:45:00 - [78] You basically call in UN forces when you dispute the status of a territory but you won't risk to send troops under your own flag just yet. It's a kind of passive presence. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Larice Seven Provinces	Posted - 2008.03.16 16:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood WWI: The Russians Collapsed, the German's sent the excess troops west and made some significant progress against the Allies in 1918. Though not the major factor in doing so, the US Troops there contributed to stopping the German offensive - and were instrumental in forcing the German's back. Who would have eventually won without the US presence I can't say - but with the US - victory for the Allies was certain. US presence was too late. By the time the US got involved the home support was already falling for the Germans and caused them to give up instead of 'fighting it out'. Also, the massive repair payments demanded fuelled unrest in Germany, which allowed a certain figure to gain power a little while later. Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood We'll never know what would have happened if the US hadn't intervened but because we did the Allies Victory was certain. And - for the record - yes the US could have beaten Germany by itself, it just would have taken longer and we largely did beat the Japanese by ourselves. Letting the Russians slug it out with Germany for 2 years with some token support... The Russian would have halted the German advance without the trucks. The advance to Berlin may have gone slower, but I seriously doubt it would have made a huge difference. I'll give you the quoted part though because of a-bombs. Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood I never said the US won WWII by itself. I said we saved Europe - which we did. Liberated. Correct. The US amongst others. Originally by: Aaron Ravenwood Whether US troops are still needed there is somewhat questionable. The bases are handy in our role as the worlds police force (a job we shouldn't have to do but which given the lack of support and indecision of the UN we often do have to do) but those bases are subject to the agreement of the home country they're in and we've not always gotten full cooperation on that. The UN is a self-fullfilling prophecy of naysayers. The UN only works if it gets full support of it's members and the mandates to do stuff. However, many countries point and say 'the UN is **, it can't do anything' and therefore give no support. Indeed the bases are there in agreement, no argument. Originally by:** Aaron Ravenwood I can to some extent understand how the Post Colonial Europeans have been traumatized into inactivity after fighting two world wars on their territory ... but the US still really shouldn't have to do so much of the worlds policing on it's own. It's a lot easier to sit back on your rear ends and make snide remarks about those people who are trying to do something than it is to get off you rear ends and help. Policing? You mean bullying around to make people see things the same way the US sees things. It's the new colonialism if you ask me.
Brea Lafail Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.16 17:03:00 - [80] Edited by: Brea Lafail on 16/03/2008 17:04:44 Originally by: Sephra Star stuffs calling Bush admin **s Apart from the whole racism/genocide/war-crimes thing, the s weren't too bad, but tbh, I see few parallels. Modern america is more like WWI-WWII Japan near as I can tell, but I aint no historian. Edit: blanked word is for german national socialist party circa ww2. Originally by:** Larice Policing? You mean bullying around to make people see things the same way the US sees things. It's the new colonialism if you ask me. So, you want North Korea and Iran to have nuclear weapons? Someone has to keep the status quo unless you don't mind ending up in the new third world.
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:11:00 - [81] Edited by: Kirjava on 16/03/2008 18:11:38 North Korea I grant you have a point there but I think you overestimate the amount of people that want to keep the American status quo. Looking at Okinawa, bases in Europe and others and I get the feeling the people perceive you have overstayed your welcome, so thanks but no thanks, we would prefer to have only European military in Europe. Japan is another kettle of fish entirely I admit but Japan needs a kick up the arse with regards to the JSDF anti air role. Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:20:00 - [82] Remember this? Over a bowl of mixed nuts? Ambassador John Bolton Bar Brawl Marks Rocky Start to UN Tenure 'He went off like a rocket' The scuffle is said to have erupted just minutes after Ambassador Bolton took a seat at the bar. The bartender allegedly took BoltonÆs order for a Hand Grenade, Ambassador Bolton appeared to ôgo ballistic.ö "He threw the nuts in the face of the bartender and accused him of being disrespectful Onlookers say that it wasnÆt long before representatives of other countries found themselves involved in the fracas which quickly became a melee involving delegates from Finland, Fiji and Tanzania, all of whom were treated by UN medical staff for injuries ranging from black eyes to rug burn. http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2005/08/bolton_bar_braw.html
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:40:00 - [83] Edited by: Sephra Star on 16/03/2008 18:41:52 Jon Bolton U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. (VIDEO) "There is no United Nations" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOINBs8eOdk
Kirjava Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:43:00 - [84] Sephra, no disrespect intended but do you have any links to more accepted websites, ie the register or BBC for that article? Sounds a bit farfetched to be quite honest.... Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007.
Sephra Star The Galactic Collective	Posted - 2008.03.16 18:50:00 - [85] Watch the VIDEO in the other link. If that does not give you enough to convince you of the credibility then nothing will.
Kyanzes Utopian Research I.E.L. Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:16:00 - [86] Edited by: Kyanzes on 16/03/2008 19:20:15 Bolton is perfectly ok and he's of course right in the majority of questions. Only problem is that a diplomat shouldn't be so straight. At least not generally. E.g. You cannot tell the russians something like: "** you ***s, if you lay that friggin gas line down through East-europe (South Stream) we'll bomb you to hell 'cause Nabucco pwns" unless you wish to be assassinated. --------------------------------------------- GET TO THE CHOPPA!!! The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:37:00 - [87] Locked Think this managed to go a little too off-topic. Mitnal, Community Representative EVE Online CCP Games Email/Netfang


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