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Time has come to remove "kinetic" dmg bonus from caldari ships.

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Shemaul A.C.M.E Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 13:58:00 - [61] Edited by: Shemaul on 17/03/2008 14:01:58 Edited by: Shemaul on 17/03/2008 14:00:46 Originally by: Sha4d13 Shemaul- with respect, I have to assume that you are not really much of a pvper- as you don't appear to understand the issues here. Yes- Gallente can fit antimatter by choice- but thats just a RANGE change. They can still only fire kin/therm. Caldari have the advantage that missiles hit as hard at 1k as they do at 100k. They can also switch pure damage types- which other races cannot do mid battle. MID BATTLE is important and completely dispels your argument about amarr fitting arties. So if someone tanks against my gallente ship- even with my bonuses, im not hitting him very hard. If I could switch like caldari I could go for this weaknesses. As for exp radius etc- have you ever tried to hit an interceptor with a gallente 425mm railgun? Or even an Arty? You cant do it- unless at appropriate range and low transversal by the inty. Missiles are actually the speed tanker's least favourite opponent. About PvP we have our opinions, that are different i make only pvp in small gangs and only in piarate situations. But anyway we both agree that are pros and cons with every weapon type. Closing the circle. It's so blasphemous to ask general damage bonus by "nerfing" (what a bad word to use theese days) some other aspect? Or u think it's perfect the way it is? Can really a change like i imagine create such mess on missile balance?
Sha4d13 State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:05:00 - [62] I FLY CALDARI PVP SHIPS. I would hate the change you suggest- as it would, overall, nerf my damage in teh average engagement.
Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Vanessa Vale Kinetic is caldari's racial damage, that's why you get the bonus. And you get the bonus because if kinetic missiles did more damage other races would be able to use them too. And before you start off with the mythical "minmatar can choose damage" go check the ammos and compare. Ammo is prenerfed so that it is only really useful on minmatar ships. Did you even think about that when you wrote it? Other races ships get bonuses to damage for their specific weapon type for the ship. Minmatar get stuff like 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire and Large Projectile Turret damage per level. Amarr get 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage and 5% armor resistance per level. Gallente get 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. An equivalent bonus for Caldari would be 5% damage to all missile damage. I think what the OP wants is like the one from the Kestrel to be applied to all Caldari ships, 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level. The Minmatar Breacher has a similar bonus, 10% bonus to Explosive missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Kinetic and Thermal missile damage per level. Bonuses for Caldari Missile ships: Kestrel: 10% bonus to Kinetic missile damage and 5% bonus to EM, Explosive, and Thermal missile damage per level. Caracal: 5% bonus Kinetic Missile Damage per skill level and 10% bonus to Missile Velocity per level. Drake: 5% shield resistance and 5% bonus kinetic damage of heavy missiles and heavy assault missiles Raven: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level. The T2 ships continue in a similar vein with bonuses to Kinetic damage. Only the Crow and Kestrel actually get a 10% bonus to kinetic damage, the Manticore gets a 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and an additional 5% to Kinetic but those are the only 3 ships. Any other ship only gets 5% to kinetic only if they get a damage bonus, the other 3 races get a damage boost to 2 or more damage types for their ships. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Dav Varan Snuff inc	Posted - 2008.03.17 14:57:00 - [64] Look at two situations Caracal v Tech I shield tanker , player chooses EM missiles = Loses ship bonus. Caracal v Tech I Armor tanker , player chooses EXP/KIN missiles = 50% ship bonus.* Caracal v Tech II Amarr , player chooses Thermal = loses ship bonus. Caracal v Tech II Minmatar , player chooses Kinetic = Keeps ship bonus. Caracal v Tech II Gallente , player chooses EXP Missiles = loses ship bonus. Caracal v Tech II Caldari , player chooses EM Missiles = loses ship bonus. *Firing against second weekest resist if using KIN Total effectiveness of ship bonus = 25% Thorax v Tech I shield tanker , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Thorax v Tech I Armor tanker , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Thorax v Tech II Amarr , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Thorax v Tech II Minmatar , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Thorax v Tech II Gallente , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Thorax v Tech II Caldari , player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus. Total effectiveness of ship bonus = 100% Choosing damage type is supposed to make up the fact that missile users start with lower dps than gun users. But you cant "choose" a damage type other than Kinetic without losing your ship bonuses. Makes no sense to me I dont think other ships lose there ship bonuses by using the tactics there designed for.
Lucia Warbler Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:09:00 - [65] Originally by: AndrewRyan Gallente should be restricted into only using thermal drones as well. Buh? As if drones aren't nerfed enough already? ----- I'm actually surprised that with such a large Caldari player base they can't seem to be able to get CCP do this. I guess CCP don't want Caldari to rule both PvE and PvP. Everyone knows that Caldari are quite simply superior in every way when it comes to mission running and PvE in general. Would you all like everyone to fly Caldari then? They are easy to train too so it would be insta win missile spam for Caldari! Yay! \o/
Sha4d13 State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:10:00 - [66] I really cant believe people are still trying to argue this nonsense. Caldari do the same damage at 100k as they do at 1k- thats an advantage in itself. As is not having to worry about racking, transversal etc. Your argument is utterly spurious. Gallente ship v any tank of therm / kinetic = Yes you still get the bonus. But if you COULD choose, you'd lose the bonus and switch damage types to suit the target's weakness. A gallente ship MUST continue firing therm / kin even at a kin / therm tanked ship- and continues getting its bonus. A caldari missile boat can ALSO still keep firing its bonused missiles- with much the same effect. But ADDITIONALLY has the option of swapping to hit a weakness. i.e. Imagine 100dps in kin missiles against a target with 90% kinetic tank- you do 10 dps. But you can swap to em, do less base dps but where the target may have only 50% you still do better damage. Gallente ship- with 100 dps in bonused railguns, against a therm / kinetic 90% tank- does 10dps. And there is nothing they can do to change it. Mixing up variable ranged ammo with damage types is comparing apples and oranges. You could argue the gallente ship is heavily at a disadvantage because it has to swap its ammo depending on range and will never do its top damage unless at close range. The caldari missile boat doesnt have that problem.
Cygnus Scott Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:46:00 - [67] Originally by: Sha4d13 Edited by: Sha4d13 on 17/03/2008 15:17:07 I really cant believe people are still trying to argue this nonsense. Caldari do the same damage at 100k as they do at 1k- thats an advantage in itself. As is not having to worry about racking, transversal etc. Your argument is utterly spurious. Gallente ship v any tank of therm / kinetic = Yes you still get the bonus. But if you COULD choose, you'd lose the bonus and switch damage types to suit the target's weakness. A gallente ship MUST continue firing therm / kin even at a kin / therm tanked ship- and continues getting its bonus. A caldari missile boat can ALSO still keep firing its bonused missiles- with much the same effect. But ADDITIONALLY has the option of swapping to hit a weakness. i.e. Imagine 100dps in kin missiles against a target with 90% kinetic tank- you do 10 dps. But you can swap to em, do less base dps but where the target may have only 50% you still do better damage. Gallente ship- with 100 dps in bonused railguns, against a therm / kinetic 90% tank- does 10dps. And there is nothing they can do to change it. Mixing up variable ranged ammo with damage types is comparing apples and oranges. You could argue the gallente ship is heavily at a disadvantage because it has to swap its ammo depending on range and will never do its top damage unless at close range. The caldari missile boat doesnt have that problem. In a nutshell (and quoting the post above):- "Thorax v Tech II Gallente, player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus BUT ALSO LOSES MOST OF THE BENEFIT OF SHIP BONUS BECAUSE STILL FIRING AGAINST KIN/ THERM TANK" Yes but that is only the Thorax, how about the Vexor which gets 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level? Switch up Drone type and you've got 10-50% more damage from your drones. That would be like throwing the Ferox, Moa, Rokh or Merlin in, compare apples to apples man. Not only that the Thorax has room for 5 medium Drones or 2 groups of 5 light drones for different damage types on the fly. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Sha4d13 State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 15:53:00 - [68] drones are another argument altogether.
RigelKentaurus Flying Tartiflette Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:08:00 - [69] Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 17/03/2008 16:12:23 Originally by: Sha4d13 drones are another argument altogether. Actually, it's not. Drones are very similar to missiles in some way. If the OP wants caldari missile ships to have a bonus which applies to every missiles (like drone boats), then it's fine, but then missiles must be changed to have different "damage modifiers" like drones which don't all deal the same amount of damages. _________ Someday, EVE may look like this.
Dav Varan Snuff inc	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:10:00 - [70] Originally by: Sha4d13 Edited by: Sha4d13 on 17/03/2008 15:17:07 I really cant believe people are still trying to argue this nonsense. Caldari do the same damage at 100k as they do at 1k- thats an advantage in itself. As is not having to worry about racking, transversal etc. Your argument is utterly spurious. Gallente ship v any tank of therm / kinetic = Yes you still get the bonus. But if you COULD choose, you'd lose the bonus and switch damage types to suit the target's weakness. A gallente ship MUST continue firing therm / kin even at a kin / therm tanked ship- and continues getting its bonus. A caldari missile boat can ALSO still keep firing its bonused missiles- with much the same effect. But ADDITIONALLY has the option of swapping to hit a weakness. i.e. Imagine 100dps in kin missiles against a target with 90% kinetic tank- you do 10 dps. But you can swap to em, do less base dps but where the target may have only 50% you still do better damage. Gallente ship- with 100 dps in bonused railguns, against a therm / kinetic 90% tank- does 10dps. And there is nothing they can do to change it. Mixing up variable ranged ammo with damage types is comparing apples and oranges. You could argue the gallente ship is heavily at a disadvantage because it has to swap its ammo depending on range and will never do its top damage unless at close range. The caldari missile boat doesnt have that problem. In a nutshell (and quoting the post above):- "Thorax v Tech II Gallente, player chooses Iron - Antimatter dictated by range = Keeps ship bonus BUT ALSO LOSES MOST OF THE BENEFIT OF SHIP BONUS BECAUSE STILL FIRING AGAINST KIN/ THERM TANK" What I cant believe is you are still arguing against it and complaining in the same sentence for people who argue for it. The point is this If you train up gallente cruiser a level you get bonuses for doing so that are compatible with the ships tactics. Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 5% less penalty to max capacitor for MicroWarpdrive usage per level. So you get 5% more damage against everything , you get more capacitor when fitting a mwd. Both of these are nice bonuses that fit in well with the thorax's tactics of getting in close and doing insane dps. If you train up caldari cruiser a level you get bonuses that are NOT compatible with the ships tactics. Special Ability: 5% bonus Kinetic Missile Damage per skill level and 10% bonus to Missile Velocity per level. This is not compatible with the caracals tactic of switching damage type. It means if you use EM/EXP/Thermal to target the opponents I highlighted in my original post then you are no more powerful at lvl5 than you are at lvl1 Caldari Cruiser , 25 days training for nothing in 75% of opponents. If anyone is guilty of bringing spurious argument to this post it is you. We are talking about making caldari more pvp effective for people who want to fly them pvp. So any uber PVE arguements are null. 100km range max damage argument , does not hold water , you cant scram someone at 100k Not having to worry about tracking / transversal. Missiles have damage falloff verus velocity whether transversal or radial. To use your own arguement i.e. Imagine 100dps in kin missiles against a target with 90% kinetic tank- you do 10 dps. But you can swap to em, do less base dps but where the target may have only 50% you still do better damage. And a caldari cruiser lvl 1 pilot does the same dps as a caldari cruiser lvl5 pilot in this situation. Where have my 25 days training gone ?
Eventy One	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:42:00 - [71] /signed (in spite of the poor arguments against)
Sha4d13 State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:47:00 - [72] The logic remains utterly spurious. Caracal pilot can CHOOSE to have his bonus 100% of the time if he wants. But hes better off switching if target is tanked against kinetic. Thorax pilot has his 100% bonus 100% of the time- but cannot switch and is stuck with poor damage (even including his bonus) if the target is tanked against his rails. I fly missile boats for a top end corp / alliance in 0.0 and am more than happy with the way they operate. I also fly gallente. If caldari was at a disadvantage as you suggest- I would never fly the caldari boats...
Daelin Blackleaf Naqam	Posted - 2008.03.17 16:59:00 - [73] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 17/03/2008 17:03:36 Arguing that if the enemy knows you are flying Caldari and tanks is kin that you should bring a different missile type akin to arguing that if your enemy knows your flying Gallente you should bring projectiles. But there is little choice when Gallente t2 HACs have 83.8% base kinetic resist making Caldari face similar issues to those encountered by lasers against Minmatar t2 ships, without the benefit of a second damage type hitting a lower resist. Gamesguy: I don't see Caldari ships getting +5% cap bonuses and a lower cap usage tank either, Khanid pay for their added abilities in cap warfare by being restricted by range. I would go so far as to say the Sac is, in the majority of engagements, a superior missile boat to the Cerb due to the the issues missiles have at long range and the "non-existance" of mid range combat making two of the Cerbs bonuses very specific while a third is only of real benefit against certain ship types and/or tanks. This may be controversial, but given that much of the time one isn't going to be using the bonus it would actually be more beneficial to have a non-missile bonus in it's place if a flat damage or RoF bonus is overpowered. Perhaps I am wrong here, but I've yet to see a single reason why, given all their inherent penalties, non-damage-type specific damage bonuses on Caldari ships would be imbalanced. If I am wrong then those Caldari ships, such as the Raven, that are not so-restricted are actually overpowered. [EDIT: Shad has a point about missile type changing mid-combat, but this has always been considered a benefit to counter missiles inherently drawbacks. In addition that Thorax is able to deal Kin, Therm, and Explosive damage without sacrificing a bonus.]
AleRiperKilt The Scope	Posted - 2008.03.17 17:24:00 - [74] Originally by: Dav Varan Choosing damage type is supposed to make up the fact that missile users start with lower dps than gun users. But you cant "choose" a damage type other than Kinetic without losing your ship bonuses. If you don't like your racial ship bonuses then train for the damn ship you like. There is nothing in this game that prevents a Caldari from flying a Gallente Cruiser with all its bonuses. Now quit whining and give me your stuff --- 1. Fit wrong stuff to ship 2. Post screenshot in Eve Forums 3. ???? 4. PROFIT!
Venkul Mul Vikramaditya DO JAJA Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.17 23:46:00 - [75] Simple solution change launcher so that they can use only 2 kind of missile for each launcher and then give the bonus on ship only to one of the launcher models. For example: - hellfire heavy missile launcher: can use scourge and widowmaker heavy missiles (and variants) - lighting heavy launcher: can use thunderbolt and havoc heavy missiles (and variants). Caracal: 5% damage bonus per level to hellfire heavy missile launchers. 10% missile velocity for missiles fired from hellfire launcher (same thing for a close range system too) Caldari get to choose between 2 bonused damage type, but if they don't mount the right launcher they get nothing (exactly as a thorax mounting small hybrids or projectile weapons). It is not what you want but it exactly what you are arguing for: multiple bonused damage types. With 2 damage models like other races. You even get the added bonus of not using split damage.
Gamesguy D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.18 00:06:00 - [76] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Gamesguy: I don't see Caldari ships getting +5% cap bonuses and a lower cap usage tank either, Khanid pay for their added abilities in cap warfare by being restricted by range. I would go so far as to say the Sac is, in the majority of engagements, a superior missile boat to the Cerb due to the the issues missiles have at long range and the "non-existance" of mid range combat making two of the Cerbs bonuses very specific while a third is only of real benefit against certain ship types and/or tanks. And I don't see the khanid ones getting a missile velocity and explosion velocity bonus either. The cerb is a far superior ship for anti-support roles in fleet, one of the best ones in the game actually, eagle is still better, and hey look! eagle is a caldari hac as well. What about the malediction? Oh thats right its basically a crappier crow. So no, unless you're willing to accept bonus to short or long range weapons only, you cant have the dmg bonus to all missiles. Or you could accept lower damage on non-kinetic missiles, the same way minmatar loses dmg when switching ammo types, and the same way drones lose damage when switching from thermal.
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.18 11:09:00 - [77] Originally by: RigelKentaurus Edited by: RigelKentaurus on 17/03/2008 16:12:23 Originally by: Sha4d13 drones are another argument altogether. Actually, it's not. Drones are very similar to missiles in some way. If the OP wants caldari missile ships to have a bonus which applies to every missiles (like drone boats), then it's fine, but then missiles must be changed to have different "damage modifiers" like drones which don't all deal the same amount of damages. Yeah, okay. As long as we get some missiles that are faster than others, that have much smaller explosion radius, etc. Actually, I'd be ALL FOR THAT. But since that's not going to happen, let's just be consistent. Change the Raven to a Kinetic bonus. Change all Minmatar ship missile bonuses to explosive only. All Amarr ships to EM only. And I don't even think Gallente have any missile bonuses so whatever. Afterall, why should anyone be able to have all the benefits of missiles with all damage types? Apparently they're so good that a one-damage type only bonus is fine
Wet Ferret Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.18 11:12:00 - [78] Originally by: Gamesguy So no, unless you're willing to accept bonus to short or long range weapons only, you cant have the dmg bonus to all missiles. I'd take a double bonus to a short range missile over a single bonus to both short and long range TBH.
Franga NQX Innovations	Posted - 2008.03.18 11:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Shemaul Bring back damage bonus applied to every type of missile fitted. We do only one kind of damage per missile. Tired to be the only race that tells foes "don't forget your kin hardener when u fight me!". I've heard that you can type more then one sentence per line. Srsly. And a big no from me. This is a topic that has come up time and time again (in the wrong forum, might I add) and is constantly ignored. For good reason. Every race has it's specific damage bonus mainly due to the bonuses that apply to their ships are only for their type of turret. And yes, even Minny. Everyone thinks you can deal all types of damage with Minny projectiles. Not really. I mean, you can - but pathetically. Explosive is really the only decent one. Originally by: Rachel Vend ... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
Thokker Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.03.18 11:36:00 - [80] You're the only race that can switch damage types mid-fight (hell even pre-fight if you scan out someone with a known fit) to hit the resist hole. Besides, who the hell fits to fight a single race? If someone does that, switch up and *****them. It's not hard. In short, cry more.
Attrezzo Pox M3G4 Corp Te-Ka	Posted - 2008.03.18 11:39:00 - [81] Edited by: Attrezzo Pox on 18/03/2008 11:41:24 Please also bring back every damage type to lasers. And if it's good for you, you should make all hybrid ammos do every damage type. No more races either... Can't we all just... Get along? All I wanna do is mine. Is that so much to ask? What makes a Raven so different from a Typhoon anyway? You're supposed to be in a Pod when your flying both of them right? The world is a tough place. I quit!!! This game sucks!! I can't even effortlessly pwn people.
Dav Varan Snuff inc	Posted - 2008.03.18 13:53:00 - [82] Originally by: Thokker You're the only race that can switch damage types mid-fight (hell even pre-fight if you scan out someone with a known fit) to hit the resist hole. Besides, who the hell fits to fight a single race? If someone does that, switch up and *****them. It's not hard. In short, cry more. Good your half way to understanding the issue. Yes we can switch damage type mid fight - thats a caldari advantage. Just as speed is Minmatar advantage. And Raw DPS is gallente advantage And Amarr erm , :) well erm what is the amarr advantage ? not sure on that one shall we go with huge cap and tank ? anyway now that you seem to have accepted the fact that switching damage type is a designed tactic for caldari missile boats to make up for lower starting dps and the fact that we cant hit anything going over 2k/s Please please explain why when using the tactic of switching damage type a caldari pilot who has trained cruiser to level 5 is no more effective in his ship than a pilot who has trained only to level 1? This is not a ship v ship balance issue. It is a skill training issue. Train level 5 in Caldari cruiser is a wasted skill in 3 outof 4 PvP encounters if you fly a ship such as caracal that only has bonus to one damage type.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2008.03.18 16:07:00 - [83] Originally by: Wet Ferret Change the Raven to a Kinetic bonus. Change all Minmatar ship missile bonuses to explosive only. All Amarr ships to EM only. And I don't even think Gallente have any missile bonuses so whatever. Afterall, why should anyone be able to have all the benefits of missiles with all damage types? Apparently they're so good that a one-damage type only bonus is fine In place of the racial damage bias, Khanid are largely range- and type-limited, Minnie missile ships are largely slot-limited. You'd be right about the Raven being inconsistent, but the whole argument is meaningless. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Does the Raven need a damage-type nerf? Does every other Caldari missile ship need an across-the-board boost? Do the other race's missile ships need an across-the-board nerf? These are the questions you should be asking. Answers are all 'no' in my opinion, though individual ships need tweaks. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE

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