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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 17:00:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Crux Australis The amount of skill involved in zooming around in nanoishtars/nanocerberus et similia (paradoxically the nanoship that requires more skill to be rightly used is the so vituperated vagabond) while unloading *full* dps on your opponents and staying 10+ km out of their web range is really staggering.
And please don't say 'rapier' or 'huginn' because even the most ******** nanogang flying around will obliterate that ship(s) first.
If (when) this lolnanofaggottry will be nerfed to oblivion many people (me included) will laugh their ass off, until then it's a matter of patience and 'bracing the gate' ;)
A nano fleet of your own or a logistic/ecm/web/dps (in other words balanced) fleet with good skilled leadership and experienced combat fliers will sort out most nano fliers and send them running.
Your problem is that you want your standardly fitted (dps + tank proly) ships to be able to combat and beat all that comes against you proly by sheer numbers unless i miss my guess.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 18:44:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: maralt A nano fleet of your own or a logistic/ecm/web/dps (in other words balanced) fleet with good skilled leadership and experienced combat fliers will sort out most nano fliers and send them running.
Your problem is that you want your standardly fitted (dps + tank proly) ships to be able to combat and beat all that comes against you and proly by sheer weight numbers unless i miss my guess.
Go and roll your eyes on caod m8, your guess on me, my experience and what I may or may not want is wrong: I hated stabs before, I hate nanoing now (and with good reason).
So anything you do not have the skill to counter or wish to fit your ship against you hate and go for a nerf instead of improving your individual and group pvp skills and refitting and varying your ships?.
Do you honestly think that eve should adapt to your individual style of pvp instead of you improving yourself and adapting to the games varied types of combat?, cos the game your looking for sounds limited and very predictable and boring.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 19:29:00 -
[3]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 19:32:22 Logistics gangs, nano gangs, ewar gangs, dps gangs, tanked gangs and various mixes of each plus others, now unless you can show me a totally different kind of math that im unaware of im sure that removing nano gangs will mean one less style of pvp in eve?.
Nerfs are theft in part of our monthly payment as they are taking away summat we spent time and money training for, boost summat or add a counter to the game but nerfs are stealing the time and so the isk/euro's i spent training for a skill, module or ship type.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 21:07:00 -
[4]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 21:09:34
Originally by: Crux Australis Nano gangs can come on top or be immune to any of the type of gang that you have listed, if they don't include a large number of nano ships as well, in which case they are a) nano gang themselves b) blobs Risk Vs. reward rings a bell here?
So if you had your nano gang and i had a nice balanced logistic/web/ewar/dmg gang do you really think you would win?, cos i have popped and or chased off some of the best nano gangs in the game with a good balanced and well trained gang. I was flying nano gangs in TRI for a long time and tbh the only problems we had were with well trained well balanced fleets containing a good mix of ships including logistics, webbers, ewar and dps.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.05 21:33:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: maralt So if you had your nano gang and i had a nice balanced logistic/web/ewar/dmg gang do you really think you would win?, cos i have popped and or chased off some of the best nano gangs in the game with a good balanced and well trained gang. I was flying nano gangs in TRI for a long time and tbh the only problems we had were with well trained well balanced fleets containing a good mix of ships including logistics, webbers, ewar and dps.
The nano gang won't win maybe but you won't kill it unless they make some big mistake.
This is where balance goes south: in any way the nano guys handle it they win, be it by popping your gang or by getting the **** out.
If the ability to get away is summat that you consider reaon for a nerf then most of the skilled pvpers in eve need nerfing including BE with their damping/nuet'ing ravens and most other pvp outfits. What you seem to be looking for is a way to make ppl sit still at optimal plugging away until one side runs out of ships.
Where's the piloting skill and team work in that?, at least with mixed fleets vs nano's you do summat other that warp to range f1 f2.....yawn.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:08:00 -
[6]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 22:10:03
Originally by: Crux Australis
I have given up going out roaming unless I am in a cloaky recon or a nanofag gang or a lulz gang of expendable t1 **** that will never get back home in first instance.
So your at 3 options now for roaming and your trying to reduce your options down to two, t1 crap or cloaking recon?, not smart tbh cos if they nerf cloaks (ppl are crying about that as well btw) you will be left with flying leeeeroy ops in t1 crap and they suck tbh.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:28:00 -
[7]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 22:30:35
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: maralt So your at 3 options now for roaming and your trying to reduce your options down to two, t1 crap or cloaking recon?, not smart tbh cos if they nerf cloaks (ppl are crying about that as well btw) you will be left with flying leeeeroy ops in t1 crap and they suck tbh.
No, I'm waiting for the nano nerf (if it will ever happen)so that people will have to decide if they are going to engage or not (intel ftw), but once they are in it's gonna be to the last ship for everybody, with good riddance of the running pussies.
The fact that you need to be in a nanoship to roam around and get a fight is, imho, bull****. The fact that you are too much on the safe side of the risk Vs. reward equation when running around in a nanoship (and that the other not nanoed poor bastards are more often than not getting the short end of the stick) is, always imho, the truth.
A reasonable nano nerf would bring back diversity in the game: those who blobbed before will blob after as well, those who like to run around causing havoc will have to actually do it in a different way than "o**** this ain't going well.. anyway lololol 5 km/s u can't touch me!".
All these claims of cowardice from the person who only flies nano, recon/cloakers or disposable crap lol, and please do not claim its because of nano ships that you do that.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:32:00 -
[8]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 22:32:36
Originally by: Crux Australis Originally by: maralt This from the person who only fles nano, recon/cloakers of disposable crap and please do not claim its because of nano ships.
I see that you have reading issues.
Originally by: Crux Australis I have given up going out roaming unless I am in a cloaky recon or a nanofag gang or a lulz gang of expendable t1 **** that will never get bacl home in first instance.
Better than your memory issues it seems.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:38:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Crux Australis Originally by: maralt This from the person who only fles nano, recon/cloakers of disposable crap and please do not claim its because of nano ships.
I see that you have reading issues.
Originally by: Crux Australis I have given up going out roaming unless I am in a cloaky recon or a nanofag gang or a lulz gang of expendable t1 **** that will never get bacl home in first instance.
Better than your memory issues it seems.
After having thrown countless isk and time planning how to go up against the nanocancer with 'well thought out' (ew/web/logistics/etc) gangs as maralt would say...
So what?, all that proves is that your a quitter, failed FC and or pvp pilot who is now on the forum blaming the game for your lack of training. I suggest you join TRI and speak to XxangelxX OR wargod as i consider them both quite good and competent commanders.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.05 22:52:00 -
[10]
Edited by: maralt on 05/04/2008 22:53:07
Originally by: Crux Australis
Originally by: maralt So what?, all that proves is that your a quitter, failed FC and or pvp pilot who is now on the forum blaming the game for your lack of training. I suggest you join TRI and speak to XxangelxX OR wargod as i consider them both quite good and competent commanders.
Ah, down to personal attacks, nice. You are out of arguments and your forum-fu weakness (of which I'm sure you think to be a master) reveals.
About joining tri, I don't like to join people that go to invade other's space and after they get their asses handed to them omgbuhulagcapitalsroadtripquitbacktonanogangs, sorry about this.
I do not consider it a personal attack, it is a evaluation made from observations of your posting and submitted with a suggestion on how you can improve yourself and proceed with your eve life.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.05 23:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Goumindong
1. bringing more of the same is not a "counter", you would have to be a moron to think this. In fact the specific problem with nano-ships is that there is no way to kill them except by bringing more of the same
2. Rapiers and Huginns are nano ships.
3. Ah ha ha ha ha . P.S. "or leave" does not satisfy the conditions required for the module to be a counter
4. Does not kill the nano-gang
5. Does not kill the nano-gang
6. If none of the above except more nanos kills nanos, then how in the world can any competent FC use these abilities except bringing nanos to kill them?
re: T2 trumps
No, t2 does not trump t1. My reference: every ******* design document regarding eve, ever.
How about this "I can fly command ships and because of this i should kill all HACs ever because command ships are bigger and because they are t2"..
No, that is ********, as ******** as your "t2 trumps t1" comment.
1. of course nano is a counter to nano but it is just one option you can use.
2,3,4,5. Combination on webbers, logistics, ewar and DPS (a balanced fleet) is the perfect counter to a nano gang and if you do not know that you should join eve uni.
6. Even a faction ship with faction mods, implants, boosters and all the bells and whistles will fail if the pilots do not know how to fly them properly and work as a team and individuals within the gang and with the FC.
Point 6 is the real problem as ppl would rather get there nuts chewed off than admit to it being their lack of piloting skills and pvp knowledge that is costing them ships (or fleets if they are lacking FC skills).
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 00:06:00 -
[12]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 00:09:21
Originally by: Goumindong No, its not, its very simple. You have nano-ships, or you don't kill things[rapiers and huginns are nano-ships.]
Because of this, the balance fails and there becomes a clear optimal play that everyone chooses.
Hell, even you folks, who argue there is nothing wrong, explicitly stated that the number one counter to nano-ships is ******* nanoships.
Thats the problem.
Rubbish the number one counter is a well balanced fleet made up of properly trained pilots, nano vs nano is way below that for defeating it. In fact a well balanced fleet is proly the best gang vs gang make up you will find in eve.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 00:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Goumindong No, its not, its very simple. You have nano-ships, or you don't kill things[rapiers and huginns are nano-ships.]
Because of this, the balance fails and there becomes a clear optimal play that everyone chooses.
Hell, even you folks, who argue there is nothing wrong, explicitly stated that the number one counter to nano-ships is ******* nanoships.
Thats the problem.
Rubbish the number one counter is a well balanced fleet made up of properly trained pilots, nano vs nano is way below that for defeating it. In fact a well balanced fleet is proly the best gang vs gang make up you will find in eve.
Nope, the nano-gang just runs away and you don't kill them.
Any gang can do that so its hardly reason for a nerf and considering the nano guys are out for kills running away = fail.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 00:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 01:04:18
Originally by: Goumindong No, ive run plenty of nano-gangs off that isnt the issue, the issue is that since they cannot be killed without nano-ships there is no reason to not fly nano-ships.
A balanced gang wipes the floor with nano gangs and you do not need nano ships to do it. And do not say that the rapier and huginn are nano ships just because they can be fitted for speed they are anti-nano ships plain and simple their bonuses are for slowing stuff down and increasing the sig radius for easier hits (although TP are not used much).
Train up get in a good pvp corp/alliance and learn some skills to deal with the various aspects of pvp in eve without resorting to the blob (nano or otherwise).
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 10:25:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Goumindong
A bs gang that gets away from nanos is doing one of two things.
1: Attempting to warp out of a bubble
2: running back to the gate
So the nano's do what? some jump through to the other side while the rest try and nuke what they can, then de-aggress jump through and kill what was tackled.
This works exceptionally well with two hictors.
If they attempt to warp out of a bubble. you get points and kill them as they flee.
If the fast gang is spreading points as it should be then you are going to catch a lot.
E.G.
The last time i was flying in a fast gang we had a raven and some inties jump into us. The raven aggresses[small gang], and the inties look for low hanging fruit. I, in a crusader, overload my mwd and catch the crow, waste the crow as the raven deaggresses and then jumps though. I had time to warp to the gate, jump through and tackle the raven before it was able to run. Except this time it was 15km off the gate and there was no chance of getting back.
Had the raven jumped, we had a tackler jump through initially to catch him on the other side[came back when the raven aggressed].
Result: Dead raven
Losses: T1 Stabber[which didn't even really need to die, had he been paying attention]
LOL your example of the raven kill could have been achieved by a plated sensor boosted BC or BS gang with a webber fitted ffs and has nothing what so ever to do with nano ships, in fact apart from you over loading your crusaders mwd no real speed was needed in that engagment at all..
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 17:25:00 -
[16]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 17:31:57
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
LOL your example of the raven kill could have been achieved by a plated sensor boosted BC or BS gang with a webber fitted ffs and has nothing what so ever to do with nano ships, in fact apart from you over loading your crusaders mwd no real speed was needed in that engagment at all..
Irrelevant, the question was not "could the target be killed with a larger ship" the question was "Could the target run away from the nano-gang"
The answer to the question would be "no, you can't run away", and as such my assertion is true and the assertion that i was refuting[that you can just run away in larger ships] is false.
The raven could not have "ran away" from a sensor boosted BS with tackle let alone a interceptor, the example was a waste of a post and made no sense or proved anything what so ever. I really do not think you have any real xp at nano fighting or even good gang pvp cos your examples and thoughts are very basic in terms of gang warfare.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 18:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 18:41:31
Originally by: Goumindong
O.K. ill go over this slowly for you
It doesn't matter what else the raven could not have run away from[in fact the specific problem is how easy it is for the nano-ships to run away, so anything else the raven cannot run away from cements my argument].
It matters if the heavy ship could run away.
If it/they can run away then you would be right there is no less risk in using a nano-ship than in using a normal ship.
If they can't run away then you would be wrong in there being no less risk in using a nano-ship over a normal ship.
Since it can't that means you're wrong in regards to the risk that ships take when they go and fight.
Do you refute that the ships would be able to get away? If so, how do you propose they do that?
So you have managed to prove that a small fast ship can get away from big slow ships and big slow ships find it hard or imposable to get away from small FAST ships?.
Well duh lol.
PS; getting away is easy, Jump through the gate and fragwarp its untackleable by anything apart from a dic or a hic.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 19:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 06/04/2008 19:19:12
Originally by: maralt
No matter how slowly you say it your still either not making much sense, stating the blindingly obvious or your English is not up to the job .
But you seem to have managed to prove that a small fast ship can get away from big slow ships and big slow ships find it hard or imposable to get away from small fast ships?.
Well duh!!!! lol.
PS; Getting away is easy, Jump through the gate and fragwarp its untackleable by anything apart from a dic or a hic.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=728665&page=5#148
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Goumindong
Nope, the nano-gang just runs away and you don't kill them.
Any gang can do that so its hardly reason for a nerf and considering the nano guys are out for kills running away = fail.
So are you lying now, were you lying them, or are you going to admit you are wrong?
edit: I have never head the term "fragwarp". I know how to warp fast with an MWD and cloak, but not a "fragwarp". Also note the "unless they have a dictor or hictor" stipulation]
Do me and yourself a favor and tell me what you are talking about cos your English and or representation of what you want to convey is unintelligible.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 20:03:00 -
[19]
Id hardly call the fact that all of a slow moving gang cannot get away from a fast moving gang as reason to nerf nano's as an e-war gang could get away from a tanked gang as well.
The fact is that a well balanced gang can beat any type of focused setup or at the very least stalemate them, while and fleet that lacks variety has another focus fit that can kill it easily or prevent it doing/receiving dmg.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 20:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
Id hardly call the fact that all of a slow moving gang cannot get away from a fast moving gang as reason to nerf nano's as an e-war gang could get away from a tanked gang as well.
The fact is that a well balanced gang can beat any type of focused setup (including nano's) or at the very least stalemate them, while a fleet that lacks variety has another focus fit in game that can kill it easily or prevent it doing dmg.
Then why don't you fly mixed gangs?
I do ive got logistics 5 bud i rarely fly nanos since i left tri.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 21:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Goumindong and how many nano-gangs have you killed since leaving? Losses, etc.
I have no idea how many nano gangs i have fought in the last 12 months or so but we virtually always come out on top even if was just one kill and taking 0 no losses. But the same can be said about ewar fitted gangs or pure dps/tanked guys.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 21:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Goumindong and how many nano-gangs have you killed since leaving? Losses, etc.
I have no idea how many nano gangs i have fought in the last 12 months or so but we virtually always come out on top even if was just one kill and taking 0 no losses. But the same can be said about ewar fitted gangs or pure dps/tanked guys.
And how do you kill those maybe one kills.
I would kinda like a link too.
What part of we fly mixed fleets are you missing?. Logistics, ewar, dps how many times do i need to say it or are you so inexperienced that you cannot figure out how to use a mixed fleet?.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 21:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Goumindong
That is you dodging the question, not answering it.
Well logistics- rep, ewar- webs/damps/jams (depending on what we have) dps pops stuff what do you expect me to tell you?.... its pretty obvious to everybody what ship does what apart from you it seems.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 22:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt
Originally by: Goumindong
That is you dodging the question, not answering it.
Well logistics- rep, ewar- webs/damps/jams (depending on what we have) dps pops stuff what do you expect me to tell you?.... its pretty obvious to everybody what ship does what, well apart from you it seems.
Then talk to me like its not, because to me, it seems like the targets should be escaping and that you should have problems with larger gangs.
Also, give me a link please.
I have rarely seen a gang fight where one side lost 100% of its ships unless it was fought by very small gangs so yes ships get away like in every fight that is eve buddy deal with it or are you gonna use it to justify nerfing nano's again.
The only cure for zerging is the titan so large gangs/blobs get ignored as i got sick of laggy blob fights a long time ago although size is relative to your own gang and what you have in it.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 22:14:00 -
[25]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 22:13:52
Originally by: Goumindong Are you going to explain how it works and show me the evidence or are you going to continue to dodge the question?
Post 174 + teamwork.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 22:33:00 -
[26]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 22:35:45
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: maralt Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 22:13:52
Originally by: Goumindong Are you going to explain how it works and show me the evidence or are you going to continue to dodge the question?
Post 174 + teamwork.
Not an explanation.
No, are you going to explain it or are you you going to show me the evidence? Or are you going keep dodging the question?
Explain what..... a fleet fight against nano ships with a mixed fleet?, cos tbh i cannot remember exactly how the fights i had last night in my mega exactly went blow by blow. Wtf do you expect me to tell you or link that can prove a damn thing to somebody who refuses to understand what ive already explained.
The logistics ships keep the ewar/tacklers and other ships alive, the ewar web /damp and jam problem ships, the tacklers hold them down, and the dps ships shoot the tackled ships until they go boom ffs. Then repeat until all are dead, or as normally happens those not dead run away.
Why are you being deliberately dense or are you really so uneducated in how gang pvp works?.
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maralt
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Posted - 2008.04.06 22:51:00 -
[27]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 22:54:36
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Goumindong Not an explanation.
No, are you going to explain it or are you you going to show me the evidence? Or are you going keep dodging the question?
Explain what..... a fleet fight against nano ships with a mixed fleet?, cos tbh i cannot remember exactly how the fights i had last night in my mega exactly went blow by blow. Wtf do you expect me to tell you or link that can prove a damn thing to somebody who refuses to understand what ive already explained.
The logistics ships keep the ewar/tacklers and other ships alive, the ewar web /damp and jam problem ships, the tacklers hold them down, and the dps ships shoot the tackled ships until they go boom ffs. Then repeat until all are dead, or as normally happens those not dead run away.
Why are you being deliberately dense or are you really so uneducated in how gang pvp works?.
Dude, that goon noob doesn't know **** about PVP, because we have been trying to tell him **** loads of times how the different ships works against nano fitted ships, and how you easily can kill a nano gang. Like 45+ pages in the first topic. And he's still don't get it. It only prooves that he can't PVP or have no experience in PVP.
Waste of time to argue with a person that already have made his mind about nanos.
Let him be in his dreamworld.
M8 ive fought in tri with nano ships and we had problems and did lose ships to logistic setups, ive flown with burn eden in BS and killed nano setups with ravens and mixed ewar, now i fly anything and everything to fit in with our mixed fleets, and ive been playing since 2003 but this guys is being deliberately ignorant cos nobody can be that naturaly ignorant about pvp unless they have ran mission all there eve life or summat.
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maralt
The seers of truth
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Posted - 2008.04.06 23:10:00 -
[28]
Edited by: maralt on 06/04/2008 23:10:10
Originally by: NightmareX maralt, i know you have been in Triumvirate.
I had good times in the illuminati with angel and wargod and if it had not been for a very old and good buddy asking me to help him with his corp id proly still be there.
The nano issue like most others is always gonna stir up ppl who just cannot come to terms with the fact its their skills, teamwork, pvp experience and unwillingness to bring a good mix of ships that is lacking not a broken game mechanic.
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